Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 26583 times)

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Offline Traveler

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #638 on: December 18, 2011, 01:27:24 PM »
...I think you misinterpret my comment.   I don't see non-believers as not having a spirit.  Everyone has one.  'Spirit' being that part of one which is immaterial and eternal.

I interpreted you to mean that since atheists can't see this light or spirit (or don't believe its there), that we didn't have empathy toward our fellow humans.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #639 on: December 19, 2011, 12:52:10 AM »
Who can understand the mind of God?

Why do you guys still bother debating someone who can always fall back on this bullshit whenever you make a good argument?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #640 on: December 19, 2011, 01:22:18 AM »
Who can understand the mind of God?

Why do you guys still bother debating someone who can always fall back on this bullshit whenever you make a good argument?

Why do some people compulsively pick their scabs?
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #641 on: December 19, 2011, 01:56:24 AM »
So to consider and understand this nature of a person, makes it easier to see past physical acts, as they are temporary, and not wholly defining them.  Light is not temporary, it is eternal and infinite,  as so according to even science, the known universe started with infinite density and energy.

Unfortunately, once a person devotes their life to be a lying drunken arsehole, it usually defines their whole life.

It would be nice to think that all of us were given a second chance to rectify our mistakes, free from the bonds of addiction and insecurity, but that is who we are. You are imagining a state where people are who they are not.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #642 on: December 19, 2011, 02:02:45 AM »
So to consider and understand this nature of a person, makes it easier to see past physical acts, as they are temporary, and not wholly defining them. 

So you are saying that a "person of spirit" will regularly take actions that do NOT accurately reflect their spiritual nature?  Why would that be?  What is there in the physical that so easily and regularly overrides their wonderful spiritual side?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #643 on: December 19, 2011, 05:08:28 AM »
I think you misinterpret my comment.   I don't see non-believers as not having a spirit.  Everyone has one.  'Spirit' being that part of one which is immaterial and eternal.

"Spirit" is either "immaterial and eternal," or it's made of photons ("light").  Pick one.  Then please answer my question.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #644 on: December 19, 2011, 09:05:58 AM »
Energy, could be considered as electromagnetic waves, more simply, light.  Therefore, I could say a person is made of light.

You have it backwards.  Light is a form of energy, like squares are a kind of parallelogram.  It would be silly to say "parallelograms could be considered as squares, therefore I could say rectangles are squares".  Wrong in so many ways.

To get away from metaphors though, energy is a lot of things.  One form of potential energy is to place an object in a gravity field.  Does that mean you could say people are made of gravity?  Another form of energy is fire, does that mean you could say people are made of fire?  Repeat using velocity, compressed springs, steam, electrical potential, etc.   To paraphrase Yoda, crude matter are we, not luminous beings.   

You keep trying to take poetic expressions and make them scientific.  You should stop doing that.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #645 on: December 19, 2011, 11:38:01 AM »
I don't claim to be a "true" Christian.  I disagree with many "Christians".  And they are probably the "true" Christians.

Velkyn, come on!  You are totally missing my point.  What makes you or any Atheist so good?  Are you better than someone who believes in a fairytale?  If so, why?

that's hysterical.  I do love seeing you lie and lie. You constantly claim other Christians are wrong and claim that you are right.  The pure amusement that yuo give me, jtp, watching your constant attempts to retract what you've said, evidently too unable to remember what you've claimed before. 

I'm not perfect, but I'm certainly better than many, including you.  You've given so much evidence of that with each bit of baseless claim, each lie, each dodge etc.  Few could top you for showing just how much Christianity and claims of knowing god are totally worthless.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #646 on: December 19, 2011, 11:41:59 AM »
Couldn't it simply be that this is the way things work, and you are just too afraid to admit the possibility that this life is all that we get, and that there is nothing permanent about us?

No, because that idea contradicts all my rational, and even science, imho.

and it's nice that's it's your opinion since science doesn't support your claims at all. 
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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #647 on: December 19, 2011, 11:54:59 AM »
So to consider and understand this nature of a person, makes it easier to see past physical acts, as they are temporary, and not wholly defining them. 

So you are saying that a "person of spirit" will regularly take actions that do NOT accurately reflect their spiritual nature?  Why would that be?  What is there in the physical that so easily and regularly overrides their wonderful spiritual side?

I'm not talking about the actions a person takes, I'm talking about how I perceive them.    If I choose to focus on all their negative qualities I perceive it will change how I react to and treat them.   If I try harder to focus on what I perceive to be good qualities, well...you know.

So I could see a person as an 'asshole', or a being made of energy.  Maybe 'asshole' is the right perception for the moment, but the moment is temporary,  the energy is more their true nature, their essence, therefore  if I can try to look past the temporary, and see it as such, and focus on the bigger picture, yeah, that does make it easier at times to let go of certain angers and what not.

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #648 on: December 19, 2011, 11:56:47 AM »
I think you misinterpret my comment.   I don't see non-believers as not having a spirit.  Everyone has one.  'Spirit' being that part of one which is immaterial and eternal.

"Spirit" is either "immaterial and eternal," or it's made of photons ("light").  Pick one.  Then please answer my question.

I thought I did answer it.  Maybe I misinterpreted it.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #649 on: December 19, 2011, 04:07:20 PM »
I'm not talking about the actions a person takes, I'm talking about how I perceive them.    If I choose to focus on all their negative qualities I perceive it will change how I react to and treat them.   If I try harder to focus on what I perceive to be good qualities, well...you know.

Why do you need to think about people in terms of 'spirits' to do this?  This is what most of us do every day without having to resort to thinking of them as spirits.  Trying harder to focus on the good in people is not some sort of idea that requires us to be made of light. 

How do you determine someone's negative qualities without first observing their behaviors? 

So I could see a person as an 'asshole', or a being made of energy.

I think this is a bit of a false dichotomy... unless you are claiming that a being made of energy is not capable of being an ass hole at any time?  That would be strange indeed.  You have to look at someone's actions to determine whether or not their an ass hole, right?  How does thinking that they are beings made of energy change your judgement about their actions?   Can someone made of energy not be considered an ass hole? 

Maybe 'asshole' is the right perception for the moment, but the moment is temporary,  the energy is more their true nature, their essence, therefore  if I can try to look past the temporary, and see it as such, and focus on the bigger picture, yeah, that does make it easier at times to let go of certain angers and what not.

Whoa! All the buzz words!! Energy, essence, true nature!  A trifecta of vaguery.  Throw in spirit and soul and you've got the five pillars of ambiguity!

Gill, you judge a person by their actions, but as you eluded to, the actions that you observe are not the sum total of the person.  I think everyone knows that.  This is not new information.  Most of us are just trying to live a good life and do good things. I would say at least 95% of people we would judge as decent people if we were to be around them all day, every day. 

Actions can be seen as good or bad, but its a lot harder to judge people that way, although people of all kinds do that every day.  It doesn't take some sort of vague notion of a spirit in order to know that a few actions are not the sum total of who they are as a person.  In fact, I find it a lot easier to forgive people knowing they are just imperfect social animals like me, and they are trying to get along and survive and be happy in this one life we get.  I don't see how looking at them as spirits would make that any different.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #650 on: December 19, 2011, 04:59:07 PM »
So to consider and understand this nature of a person, makes it easier to see past physical acts, as they are temporary, and not wholly defining them. 

So you are saying that a "person of spirit" will regularly take actions that do NOT accurately reflect their spiritual nature?  Why would that be?  What is there in the physical that so easily and regularly overrides their wonderful spiritual side?

I'm not talking about the actions a person takes, I'm talking about how I perceive them.    If I choose to focus on all their negative qualities I perceive it will change how I react to and treat them.   If I try harder to focus on what I perceive to be good qualities, well...you know.

So I could see a person as an 'asshole', or a being made of energy.  Maybe 'asshole' is the right perception for the moment, but the moment is temporary,  the energy is more their true nature, their essence, therefore  if I can try to look past the temporary, and see it as such, and focus on the bigger picture, yeah, that does make it easier at times to let go of certain angers and what not.

Jeff got in there first, so I'll just summarise.

1) You need to imagine that there is something "better" inside the person to be able to ignore their asshole actions.  Fair enough.  But what evidence do you have that there IS something better inside?  If there actions are "assholey", why not assume their "energy" is assholey too?

2) If the yummy wonderful energy inside people is so good.....why are there so many assholes?  Why do so many energy beings act like assholes?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #651 on: December 19, 2011, 06:29:38 PM »
I don't claim to be a "true" Christian.  I disagree with many "Christians".  And they are probably the "true" Christians.

Velkyn, come on!  You are totally missing my point.  What makes you or any Atheist so good?  Are you better than someone who believes in a fairytale?  If so, why?

that's hysterical.  I do love seeing you lie and lie. You constantly claim other Christians are wrong and claim that you are right.  The pure amusement that yuo give me, jtp, watching your constant attempts to retract what you've said, evidently too unable to remember what you've claimed before. 

I'm not perfect, but I'm certainly better than many, including you.  You've given so much evidence of that with each bit of baseless claim, each lie, each dodge etc.  Few could top you for showing just how much Christianity and claims of knowing god are totally worthless.
 

In my post I admit other Christians are the true Christians.  In other posts I claim that Christians despite their many doctrinal disagreements believe the fundamental truth that Jesus is God.  I am not saying I am better or less of a Christian than anyone who believes Jesus is God.

You obviously on the other hand claim some people are better than others.  This is common amongst those who believe in evolution.  Where are you in comparison to other evolutionists?, other atheists?  Are you better than them or are they better than you?
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #652 on: December 19, 2011, 06:45:03 PM »

Let me expand your vocabulary:  Calculus

Calculus is math with infinities and infinitesimals in it.  It produces exact results.  An infinite series of operations can have a finite result, BTW.

That's a lie!

Calculus does not define infinity or infinitesimals!

Infinite series that give use finite results are commonly used to design electrical systems, refrigeration systems and a multitude of other systems, but calculus in itself does not define infinity or an infinitesimal.

Nope.  That was in my calculus classes.  I'm not a liar but you are.

Come on Historicity.  Please tell me.  What is infinity?  What is an infinitesimal?  Show me the page in your
Calculus textbook that nailed these definitions down.   Eigenvalue? Laplace Transform?  Chain rule?  Hermitian Form?  Cauchy's Integral Theorem, Fourier Series, Euler Formulas, Sturm -Liouville, Please?  I didn't get what infinity or and infinitesimal was all through Calculus and beyond.  And I even got good grades!

You must share the same worldview as Velkyn, there are people better than you.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #653 on: December 19, 2011, 06:47:48 PM »
Ever seen an integral that runs to infinity?

I have.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #654 on: December 19, 2011, 06:51:55 PM »
Who can understand the mind of God?

Apparently you do:

I don't know the mind of God.  I know the mind of man (per what the Bible says and my own personal experience).

God didn't "notice" our world, floating around the mind-boggling emptiness.  He created it, and according to Him, left everything on it up to us, that is why it is so screwed up!  We are evil at heart, not Him.  Bible says that too by the way.

Unless that understanding is wrong.  If it was, how would you know?

Because that's what the Bible says. 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #655 on: December 19, 2011, 07:05:52 PM »
Ever seen an integral that runs to infinity?

I have.

Yes, and what does that tell you?  How do you apply that? 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #656 on: December 19, 2011, 07:14:58 PM »
As per kcrady, science makes predictions and if those predictions can be confirmed, then there is a possibility that they are right. Or at least right enough to be informative.

The only thing the religious seem to be able to predict is that their god is undetectable. So far, so good, but it doesn't prove much.

The predictions are often right; the industrial revolution!  Medical breakthroughs!  How does this disprove the Bible?  Archeology keeps confirming the Bible as accurate.  Recent discovery of Nineveh, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #657 on: December 19, 2011, 07:24:29 PM »
So I could see a person as an 'asshole', or a being made of energy.

I think this is a bit of a false dichotomy... unless you are claiming that a being made of energy is not capable of being an ass hole at any time?  That would be strange indeed.  You have to look at someone's actions to determine whether or not their an ass hole, right?  How does thinking that they are beings made of energy change your judgement about their actions?   Can someone made of energy not be considered an ass hole? 


Sure, someone made of energy, or even spirit could be an asshole, but the main difference is that's looking at a temporary state of them, as oppose to the more everlasting state of energy, or spirit.   

Maybe 'asshole' is the right perception for the moment, but the moment is temporary,  the energy is more their true nature, their essence, therefore  if I can try to look past the temporary, and see it as such, and focus on the bigger picture, yeah, that does make it easier at times to let go of certain angers and what not.

Quote
Whoa! All the buzz words!! Energy, essence, true nature!  A trifecta of vaguery.  Throw in spirit and soul and you've got the five pillars of ambiguity!

Gill, you judge a person by their actions, but as you eluded to, the actions that you observe are not the sum total of the person.  I think everyone knows that.  This is not new information.  Most of us are just trying to live a good life and do good things. I would say at least 95% of people we would judge as decent people if we were to be around them all day, every day. 

Actions can be seen as good or bad, but its a lot harder to judge people that way, although people of all kinds do that every day.  It doesn't take some sort of vague notion of a spirit in order to know that a few actions are not the sum total of who they are as a person.  In fact, I find it a lot easier to forgive people knowing they are just imperfect social animals like me, and they are trying to get along and survive and be happy in this one life we get.  I don't see how looking at them as spirits would make that any different.

Well, to each his own I guess.   I'm not saying no one can have empathy or compassion for anyone if they don't see spirits,  there's other ways to have that.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #658 on: December 19, 2011, 07:25:54 PM »

If the percation of this god varies per person, how is it possible to assert any characteristics of this god?

Hatman, we are the ones with unique personalities or characteristics, not God.  Salvation is a personal relationship between you and God.  You need the Bible to understand what that is.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #659 on: December 19, 2011, 07:28:04 PM »
So to consider and understand this nature of a person, makes it easier to see past physical acts, as they are temporary, and not wholly defining them. 

So you are saying that a "person of spirit" will regularly take actions that do NOT accurately reflect their spiritual nature?  Why would that be?  What is there in the physical that so easily and regularly overrides their wonderful spiritual side?

I'm not talking about the actions a person takes, I'm talking about how I perceive them.    If I choose to focus on all their negative qualities I perceive it will change how I react to and treat them.   If I try harder to focus on what I perceive to be good qualities, well...you know.

So I could see a person as an 'asshole', or a being made of energy.  Maybe 'asshole' is the right perception for the moment, but the moment is temporary,  the energy is more their true nature, their essence, therefore  if I can try to look past the temporary, and see it as such, and focus on the bigger picture, yeah, that does make it easier at times to let go of certain angers and what not.

Jeff got in there first, so I'll just summarise.

1) You need to imagine that there is something "better" inside the person to be able to ignore their asshole actions.  Fair enough.  But what evidence do you have that there IS something better inside?  If there actions are "assholey", why not assume their "energy" is assholey too?


lol, Assholey energy.  What a convesation.     They may be an asshole, but again, it's about looking past a temporary state, to a more eternal one.
Quote
2) If the yummy wonderful energy inside people is so good.....why are there so many assholes?  Why do so many energy beings act like assholes?

Good question.   It's part of being in attached to a physical state,  just the nature of things....

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #660 on: December 19, 2011, 07:28:27 PM »
JTP56, your god doesn't have a unique personality or unique characteristics?

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #661 on: December 19, 2011, 08:08:48 PM »
Sure, someone made of energy, or even spirit could be an asshole, but the main difference is that's looking at a temporary state of them, as oppose to the more everlasting state of energy, or spirit.   

I don't see how looking at their temporary state as opposed to a more everlasting state makes them more or less of an ass hole at that moment.  It's got nothing to do with their actions. 

Well, to each his own I guess.   I'm not saying no one can have empathy or compassion for anyone if they don't see spirits,  there's other ways to have that.

Yes, but you are claiming that you have MORE empathy / compassion for the people you view as spirits.  Why?  What bearing does that belief have on the actions that people are taking?  Would you literally look at someone robbing a 7-11 and say, "Wow, what he's doing is bad," and then realize he's just a spirit and think "Wow, what he's doing is not so bad"? 

 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #662 on: December 19, 2011, 08:09:12 PM »
jtp56


You asked for 3 examples from me of contradictions in the bible which you stated you would debunk and (thus by some illogic) would prove there were no contradictions in the bible.

I have provided the requested 3 glaring examples.

Are you going to reply to the 3 examples I have provided or are you going to dodge?

As you have still not replied regarding (nor recanted) your disproven claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement, (thus displaying your true xian honesty and nature) if you do not reply regarding this latest stupid claim of yours (no contradictions in the bible), I will report you for dodging, and seek to get your deceitful slippery behaviour adjusted by the mods.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #663 on: December 19, 2011, 08:10:46 PM »
We are evil at heart, not Him. Bible says that too by the way.

In an earlier post, you asked how atheists are better than people that believe in fairy tales.  This is why, right here. I bolded it for you.  Because atheists don't think everyone is evil.  Atheists can see the good in people.  I am not evil at heart.  I do not think you are evil at heart.  Religion is what poisons your mind into thinking only GOD is good, and YOU are shit.  If you think people are evil at heart, you will never see anything good in this world.  Fuck that.  It's disgusting. 

That's why every atheist here is better than you.  Because there isn't an atheist alive who thinks all people are evil at heart.  I think people generally want whats best for the world, but sometimes we mess it up and have different opinions as to what makes for a better world.  I think we can fix it and make this world a great place, but you fairy tale believers think this world is a waste, and the next one is the one worth working for.  Christians who believe as you do are ruining everything. 

And you wonder why we fight so hard to get rid of it.

Thanks for actually reading my posts. 

You are saying that atheists don't believe everyone is evil and that religion poisons hearts.  So what does a poisoned heart make someone?  Someone different, less than you?  Is that why you say atheists are better than me?  I see this as you judging me!  Or at least putting me in a place inferior to you.

By the way, I am not shit, I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus!  A child of the living God.  God never calls atheists or His kids shit!

I think Christians want whats better for the world, too. That it's not all going to shit.  This gets into politics, I know, another thread, but you believe a small group of atheist elites know whats better for the world.  I disagree, personal freedom is best for atheist and Christian alike.

Christians aren't ruining everything!  Unfortunately history has left out Judeo/Christian influence.  I don't think the constitution ruined anything.

By the way, what empirical evidence do you have that atheists see the good in people?   I ask this only because your side constantly refers to science as your bedrock foundation for truth.  Did Darwin see the good in people?  Where did eugenics come from?  Note: when the Bible mentions race, there is only one [mankind].

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #664 on: December 19, 2011, 08:13:20 PM »
jtp56


You asked for 3 examples from me of contradictions in the bible which you stated you would debunk and (thus by some illogic) would prove there were no contradictions in the bible.

I have provided the requested 3 glaring examples.

Are you going to reply to the 3 examples I have provided or are you going to dodge?

As you have still not replied regarding (nor recanted) your disproven claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement, (thus displaying your true xian honesty and nature) if you do not reply regarding this latest stupid claim of yours (no contradictions in the bible), I will report you for dodging, and seek to get your deceitful slippery behaviour adjusted by the mods.

Wow, thank you.  You read my thread about whether or not a drop is a unit of measurement.  Can you re-stat it quick?  Please?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #665 on: December 19, 2011, 08:24:10 PM »
jtp56


You asked for 3 examples from me of contradictions in the bible which you stated you would debunk and (thus by some illogic) would prove there were no contradictions in the bible.

I have provided the requested 3 glaring examples.

Are you going to reply to the 3 examples I have provided or are you going to dodge?

As you have still not replied regarding (nor recanted) your disproven claim that a drop is not a unit of measurement, (thus displaying your true xian honesty and nature) if you do not reply regarding this latest stupid claim of yours (no contradictions in the bible), I will report you for dodging, and seek to get your deceitful slippery behaviour adjusted by the mods.

Wow, thank you.  You read my thread about whether or not a drop is a unit of measurement.  Can you re-stat it quick?  Please?

reported for dodging
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #666 on: December 19, 2011, 08:27:07 PM »
 
Well, to each his own I guess.   I'm not saying no one can have empathy or compassion for anyone if they don't see spirits,  there's other ways to have that.

Yes, but you are claiming that you have MORE empathy / compassion for the people you view as spirits.  Why?  What bearing does that belief have on the actions that people are taking?  Would you literally look at someone robbing a 7-11 and say, "Wow, what he's doing is bad," and then realize he's just a spirit and think "Wow, what he's doing is not so bad"?

No no, I would think the guy's pretty bad.   It's not an instantaneous change in attitude.  I was originally talking about forgiveness.  And forgiveness can naturally take time.  But,  what are we really doing if we forgive someone?  We're eventually looking past the act itself, and having more of an understanding of the person.

You don't have to see them as spirits to do this , of course, but I personally think that process, of 'looking past' certain things can move quicker if I see them as a spiritual being.   Not saying this is easy to do either, but it can help.