Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 24820 times)

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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #609 on: December 16, 2011, 10:34:43 PM »
Velkyn (kcrady, too), Jesus sacrifice and God's judgment of Him does sound crazy to the rational mind.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes?  Was Jesus that smart He could nail 130+ prophesies without a hitch?  In my mind I don't get it, it's a heart issue.  You must be born again!
  Golly, by there being contradictions and mistakes.  JC doesn’t fullfil many many prophecies, that’s why there are still Jews.  And it’s so cute to use yet more circular arguments.  “you have to believe the way I do to be “really” born again.”  I do love how Christians try so desperately to declare them selves the only TrueChristianstm. 
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Velkyn says that I'll be disappointed on my death bed because Jesus didn't return.  I don't anticipate His return in my lifetime, so, I'll die like you will Velkyn.  He is returning for a spotless bride, Christianity has a loooooong way to go.
But other Christians do anticipate it, so again, who’s the ones with the “right” answer from this god of yours.   And returning for a “spotless” bride?  When is that, jtp? Your magic book in Revelation says that JC will return to wipe the evil from the earth, not to return to an earth with only “good” Christians on it.  Of course, bummer for him, that his dad intentionally allows the “beast” to return and corrupt this bride of his, after killing all of the evil people and JC having a nice little reign over this earth.

Your magic god will never return, jtp.  Christians have been waiting how long now?  Your JC was sure it would return in its story to the point of telling its followers that they should not worry about anything, that the return was coming so very soon.  Funny how Paul had to retcon the nonsense to excuse the no-show by suddenly being all about keeping money, and working, not following JC as being an itinerant preacher depending only on this god for all they need.     
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Pride!  I was being sarcastic with Historicty!!  He claimed to be better informed or whatever because he read the Bible.  You guys always get "in-our-face" quoting people allegedly smarter than you or having read the Bible or whatever to make you point.  Pride has nothing to do with it.  Let me have some fun.
So cute to watch you try to claim you were only “having fun”.  You are so very pathetic.   

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But I'll tell you what, mess with my wife or kids, I'll blow your brains out.
so you really don’t trust your god at all.  Nice.

I don't claim to be a "true" Christian.  I disagree with many "Christians".  And they are probably the "true" Christians.

Velkyn, come on!  You are totally missing my point.  What makes you or any Atheist so good?  Are you better than someone who believes in a fairytale?  If so, why? 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #610 on: December 16, 2011, 10:39:04 PM »

You guys are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac yet will probably go ballistic against pro-lifers over your support for abortion.

Don't even bring it up.  It is off topic and will completely derail the discussion.

Nice avoid, but I agree, "a different thread this subject belongs" (Yoda accent).
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #611 on: December 16, 2011, 10:49:55 PM »

Let me expand your vocabulary:  Calculus

Calculus is math with infinities and infinitesimals in it.  It produces exact results.  An infinite series of operations can have a finite result, BTW.

That's a lie!

Calculus does not define infinity or infinitesimals!

Infinite series that give use finite results are commonly used to design electrical systems, refrigeration systems and a multitude of other systems, but calculus in itself does not define infinity or an infinitesimal. 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #612 on: December 16, 2011, 10:51:24 PM »
Thanks Gill for stepping in! 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #613 on: December 16, 2011, 10:59:56 PM »

This is what is so confusing about being evolved from a simple cell (or amino acid or some other early chemical combination that came alive) formed in a primordial soup (your worldview word, not mine).

It's not clear what you're confused about, at least to me. Evolutionary theory? Madbunny's explanation of why he's unique?

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So a bacteria is unique from another bacteria because it's body and experience shaped it?  I guess from a bacteria's point of view it would be. They are becoming more resilient to antibiotics.  So what will they be next?

I guess that would depend on the changes to their genome (mutation) and their overall environment. Scarcity of food might favor those who can make do with less, or get around faster to find food before others, or simply reproduce faster. A surplus of food would cause other features to be favored, and so forth. 

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Imagine if there is a God.  Would His view of us be different?  If He created both.

If there really is a creator of the universe, then it seems likely it would be at best indifferent to living things, at least on this planet. Conditions throughout the majority of the universe are  inimical to any life we know: utterly cold, no atmosphere, no water, no nearby stars. And that's just between stars in our galaxy; the voids between galaxies and galactic clusters are quite beyond (literally) our capacity to grasp intuitively.

Such mind-boggling emptiness does not indicate (to me, anyway) a god that cares about the existence of matter, let alone such a transient, fragile phenomena as life. So no: if it noticed our world at all, I don't think it would see any difference between us and bacteria.

Who can understand the mind of God?   God didn't "notice" our world, floating around the mind-boggling emptiness.  He created it, and according to Him, left everything on it up to us, that is why it is so screwed up!  We are evil at heart, not Him.  Bible says that too by the way. 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Historicity

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #614 on: December 16, 2011, 11:01:46 PM »

Let me expand your vocabulary:  Calculus

Calculus is math with infinities and infinitesimals in it.  It produces exact results.  An infinite series of operations can have a finite result, BTW.

That's a lie!

Calculus does not define infinity or infinitesimals!

Infinite series that give use finite results are commonly used to design electrical systems, refrigeration systems and a multitude of other systems, but calculus in itself does not define infinity or an infinitesimal.

Nope.  That was in my calculus classes.  I'm not a liar but you are.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #615 on: December 16, 2011, 11:05:55 PM »
Who can understand the mind of God?

Apparently you do:

God didn't "notice" our world, floating around the mind-boggling emptiness.  He created it, and according to Him, left everything on it up to us, that is why it is so screwed up!  We are evil at heart, not Him.  Bible says that too by the way.

Unless that understanding is wrong.  If it was, how would you know?
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Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #616 on: December 16, 2011, 11:11:32 PM »
You know someone angers me for whatever, if I see them as a spiritual being, not just some hunk of flesh, I can look past it quicker.

Why?  Let's imagine that there were two types of people, people who were "spiritual beings" (with some kind of distinguishing mark like a glowing aura or something that was readily apparent and undisputed), and others who were just "hunks of flesh."  Both types have the exact same set of behaviors--they smile when they're happy, cry when they're hurting, and so on.  Why would you be inclined to treat the spiritual people better than the non-spiritual people?  Why would you "look past" (forgive, whatever) offenses by a spiritual person more quickly than those of a non-spiritual person?
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Online JeffPT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #617 on: December 16, 2011, 11:15:21 PM »
We are evil at heart, not Him. Bible says that too by the way.

In an earlier post, you asked how atheists are better than people that believe in fairy tales.  This is why, right here. I bolded it for you.  Because atheists don't think everyone is evil.  Atheists can see the good in people.  I am not evil at heart.  I do not think you are evil at heart.  Religion is what poisons your mind into thinking only GOD is good, and YOU are shit.  If you think people are evil at heart, you will never see anything good in this world.  Fuck that.  It's disgusting. 

That's why every atheist here is better than you.  Because there isn't an atheist alive who thinks all people are evil at heart.  I think people generally want whats best for the world, but sometimes we mess it up and have different opinions as to what makes for a better world.  I think we can fix it and make this world a great place, but you fairy tale believers think this world is a waste, and the next one is the one worth working for.  Christians who believe as you do are ruining everything. 

And you wonder why we fight so hard to get rid of it. 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline wright

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #618 on: December 16, 2011, 11:32:39 PM »

Who can understand the mind of God?   God didn't "notice" our world, floating around the mind-boggling emptiness.  He created it, and according to Him, left everything on it up to us, that is why it is so screwed up!  We are evil at heart, not Him.  Bible says that too by the way. 

Apparently you think you can understand your god, at least when it's convenient for you. When you run up against a question you'd rather not deal with, then you retreat into ignorance.

And the bible claiming something doesn't mean anything. Do you know that it also says, among other things, that your god created evil? If you really want to convince us of the validity of your god, try logic and most of all, evidence.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #619 on: December 17, 2011, 12:27:17 AM »
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Who can understand the mind of God?   God didn't "notice" our world, floating around the mind-boggling emptiness.

How can you do that? How can you contradict yourself in the space of two sentences? First you suggest that no one can understand the mind of god, and then you make claims about the mind of god. Are you so completely self-unaware that you couldn't see that before you hit Post? Do you even read what you write?

It's this kind of fractal cluelessness that leaves me stunned.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #620 on: December 17, 2011, 01:27:05 AM »
If you think people are evil at heart, you will never see anything good in this world.  Fuck that.  It's disgusting.

It's worse than disgusting, Jeff... It's a clear and present danger to humanity.  IMO, people who deny the good and the beauty that's right in front of them in their daily lives are brainwashed, in denial, in a state of cognitive dissonance or batshit insane, and I'm not convinced that they would choose to do the right thing in a crisis situation.
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Offline wright

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #621 on: December 17, 2011, 01:37:50 AM »
Quote
Who can understand the mind of God?   God didn't "notice" our world, floating around the mind-boggling emptiness.

How can you do that? How can you contradict yourself in the space of two sentences? First you suggest that no one can understand the mind of god, and then you make claims about the mind of god. Are you so completely self-unaware that you couldn't see that before you hit Post? Do you even read what you write?

It's this kind of fractal cluelessness that leaves me stunned.

The more believers like jtp56 I run into, the less I'm inclined to give any of them the benefit of doubt. Alas, their kind are so much more visible, on this forum and elsewhere, than OldChurchGuy's variety. Seriously, they've gotta be one reason for the general decline of organized religion.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #622 on: December 17, 2011, 01:38:32 AM »
What I don't do is base my morality on what I happen to have dreamed about last night, or on what some hypothetical insubstantial and undemonstrable woo-being whispers in my ear - and my ear alone - because that is a route that leads to unbalanced and unshared morality.

Does that answer your question Gill?

Yes, thanks for the reply.

Now perhaps you'll answer mine?

......if your personal and unverifiable experiences are going to make you campaign against same sex marriage, treat people without those experiences as second-class citizens, and go to war on the basis of them....then I DO care, very much.  If you are going to take negative actions based on your dreams personal experiences, then its important to me.  If you're going to rally others to your banner, then its important.  If there IS this god out there, and if its sitting in judgement on you, me, all of us...then its even more important.

So that's the questions I've got.  How important is your god, and what it wants, to me?  If its irrelevant to me, and you've got no way of proving it, then I'll duck out of this discussion now. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #623 on: December 17, 2011, 02:01:45 AM »
This is what is so confusing about being evolved from a simple cell (or amino acid or some other early chemical combination that came alive) formed in a primordial soup (your worldview word, not mine).  So a bacteria is unique from another bacteria because it's body and experience shaped it?  I guess from a bacteria's point of view it would be. They are becoming more resilient to antibiotics.  So what will they be next? 

hey dickcheese,

If you are going to post stupid shit like this, don't bother.  Go pray or masturbate or huff paint.  Whatever, I don't care.  Go find some other way to kill time that is not completely obnoxious to the community.  This little monument to idiocy you created has no bearing on anything.  It is not coherent and does not rebut anything ever said by anyone in the history of human communication.  It adds nothing to the conversation.

Do you honestly think his point was remotely applicable to bacteria?  Do you think "personal experiences" of bacteria or their "point of view" are germane to the discussion?  Are you drunk?  On drugs?  Seriously, what's your problem?  Why are you so stupid?  I spent the whole miserable day dealing with contractors, and surprisingly, they did not say anything nearly as stupid as this one post.  And I can see there are plenty more where that came from. You are just a wealth of stupid today. 

you suck.




You guys are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac yet will probably go ballistic against pro-lifers over your support for abortion.

Don't even bring it up.  It is off topic and will completely derail the discussion.

Nice avoid, but I agree, "a different thread this subject belongs" (Yoda accent).

nice avoid?  You omit the much larger part of my post where I make points and you accuse me of "nice avoid"?  You weaselly sack of crap.  You dodged everything I said.  I went through the time and effort to explain why your idiotic ideas were wrong and I even went through the trouble of being nice about it.  And you ignore all of it EXCEPT the part where I said "this point is off topic"?  you skeevy douche. 

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Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #624 on: December 17, 2011, 06:10:45 AM »

.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes? 


you lie    ........................don't forget to scroll right for some reality


No, you believe a lie.

No you idiot, I meant you lie     ..............irrespective of your stupid defence of the inerrancy of the bible.

You wouldn't even answer my repeated posts demanding your retraction of the sublimely stupid claim you made that "a drop is not a unit of measurement"   ..of course when you first opened that hilarious head and made that statement, you may not have been lying, but ever since you were shown that a "drop" is in fact a unit of measurement, you have lied by dodging and omission.

You lie.


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OK, when medical professionals want to diagnose what is wrong with you do they take all of your blood?

.......no they only take a drop  ;)


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Again I challenge you!  Pick three of the 439 of these proving the Bible a lie.[/i]

firstly I don't have to prove the bible a lie, I only have to show that you lie yet again with the sweeping statement


.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes? 
   

So OK I'll play.

1. Can god stop iron chariots?

Yes
Judges 4:13-16
And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles unto the river of Kishon. And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.

No
Judges 1:19
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.


2. Were humans created before or after the other animals?

Before
Genesis 2:18-19
And the Lord God said it is not good that man should be alone; I will make a help-meet for him. And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them.

After
Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and the cattle after their kind ... And God said, Let us make man ... So God created man in his own image.



3. Does god repent?

No
Numbers 3:19
God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of a man that he should repent.
1 Samuel 15:29
The Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
Ezekiel 24:14
I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent.
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not.
James 1:17
With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Yes
Genesis 6:6
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Exodus 32:14
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
Deuteronomy 32:36
For the Lord shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants.
1 Samuel 15:11
It repenteth me [God] that I have set up Saul to be king.
1 Samuel 15:35
The Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
2 Samuel 24:16
The Lord repented of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, it is enough: stay now thine hand.
1 Chronicles 21:15
The Lord beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand.
Isaiah 38:1-5
In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And Isaiah ... said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order: for thou shalt die, and not live. ... Thus saith the LORD ... I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will add unto thy days fifteen years.
Jeremiah 15:6
I [God] am weary of repenting.
Jeremaih 18:8
I [God] will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
Jeremaih 26:3
That I [God]may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them.
Jeremiah 26:13
The Lord will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.
Jeremiah 26:19
The Lord repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them.
Jeremaih 42:10
For I [God] repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.
Amos 7:3, 6
The Lord repented for this.
Jonah 3:10
God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #625 on: December 17, 2011, 04:09:47 PM »
You know someone angers me for whatever, if I see them as a spiritual being, not just some hunk of flesh, I can look past it quicker.

Why?  Let's imagine that there were two types of people, people who were "spiritual beings" (with some kind of distinguishing mark like a glowing aura or something that was readily apparent and undisputed), and others who were just "hunks of flesh."  Both types have the exact same set of behaviors--they smile when they're happy, cry when they're hurting, and so on.  Why would you be inclined to treat the spiritual people better than the non-spiritual people?  Why would you "look past" (forgive, whatever) offenses by a spiritual person more quickly than those of a non-spiritual person?

I think forgiveness has a lot to do with reaching a point of looking at someone beyond how some act or acts my define them or elicit emotions, in the moment. 

And so, to see them as an inherently a spiritual being, does help in that process of seeing beyond the acts themselves as being the sole nature of that person.



Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #626 on: December 17, 2011, 04:33:07 PM »
That doesn't actually answer kcrady's question, you realize...
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Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #627 on: December 17, 2011, 07:27:55 PM »
You know someone angers me for whatever, if I see them as a spiritual being, not just some hunk of flesh, I can look past it quicker.

Why?  Let's imagine that there were two types of people, people who were "spiritual beings" (with some kind of distinguishing mark like a glowing aura or something that was readily apparent and undisputed), and others who were just "hunks of flesh."  Both types have the exact same set of behaviors--they smile when they're happy, cry when they're hurting, and so on.  Why would you be inclined to treat the spiritual people better than the non-spiritual people?  Why would you "look past" (forgive, whatever) offenses by a spiritual person more quickly than those of a non-spiritual person?

I think forgiveness has a lot to do with reaching a point of looking at someone beyond how some act or acts my define them or elicit emotions, in the moment. 

And so, to see them as an inherently a spiritual being, does help in that process of seeing beyond the acts themselves as being the sole nature of that person.

Actually it should make it harder to forgive the spiritual person than the non-spiritual.

The spiritual being  is blessed with the spiritual awareness, and therefore knows better.
The non-spiritual being is without the added benefit and therefore knows no better, and should be pitied and forgiven.

If you find yourself forgiving the spiritual person more easily, you are not doing it right.

"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

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Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #628 on: December 17, 2011, 10:21:55 PM »
I think forgiveness has a lot to do with reaching a point of looking at someone beyond how some act or acts my define them or elicit emotions, in the moment. 

And so, to see them as an inherently a spiritual being, does help in that process of seeing beyond the acts themselves as being the sole nature of that person.

As Azdgari pointed out, this does not answer the question.  Why would the acts of a "spiritual" person not be the "sole nature" of that person, as contrasted with a person who is made of quarks?  Why do you think the "spiritual" person deserves to be treated better (given a greater degree of forgiveness and patience, and whatever else you would do for a "spiritual" person that you wouldn't do for a person made of quarks)?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #629 on: December 18, 2011, 07:55:34 AM »
I think forgiveness has a lot to do with reaching a point of looking at someone beyond how some act or acts my define them or elicit emotions, in the moment. 

And so, to see them as an inherently a spiritual being, does help in that process of seeing beyond the acts themselves as being the sole nature of that person.

As Azdgari pointed out, this does not answer the question.  Why would the acts of a "spiritual" person not be the "sole nature" of that person, as contrasted with a person who is made of quarks?  Why do you think the "spiritual" person deserves to be treated better (given a greater degree of forgiveness and patience, and whatever else you would do for a "spiritual" person that you wouldn't do for a person made of quarks)?

Well I think part of forgiveness is understanding.  A person gets past the temporary emotions of anger and what not, to be replaced by understanding of that person.   And,  I'm not saying one has to agree with the person to understand. 

Let's consider the word 'light' in place of spirit.  I could say that a person is matter, yes, but that would be ignoring energy, which is required to move matter.   Energy, could be considered as electromagnetic waves, more simply, light.  Therefore, I could say a person is made of light.

So to consider and understand this nature of a person, makes it easier to see past physical acts, as they are temporary, and not wholly defining them.  Light is not temporary, it is eternal and infinite,  as so according to even science, the known universe started with infinite density and energy.


Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #630 on: December 18, 2011, 08:00:56 AM »
And btw I'm not trying to avoid the question by replacing 'spirit' with 'light', it's just they have similar qualities, and so,  it's just about paying attention to the more absolute nature of a person, rather than more temporary restraints......

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #631 on: December 18, 2011, 08:43:20 AM »
Let's consider the word 'light' in place of spirit.

Why?  What's the purpose of that other than to further muddle the questions by defining words in different ways?  Why not replace the word spirit with 'essence' or 'ectoplasm' or even 'lkajfkldasjlf'?   Light is defined as electromagnetic radiation that is visible to our eyes.  And it's a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.  It's not 'spirit'.  Unless you want to say that spirit is defined as electromagnetic radiation that is visible to our eyes. 

I could say that a person is matter, yes, but that would be ignoring energy, which is required to move matter.

We KNOW people are made of matter and energy.  So is everything else in the universe.  When I took physics in college (a long time ago now) we defined energy as the ability of a system to do work.  Is that the definition you are using it for, or are you going to substitute this word for another one as well? 

Energy, could be considered as electromagnetic waves, more simply, light.  Therefore, I could say a person is made of light.

No... It really can't. 

This doesn't make any sense.  People are not made from light.  How do we know that?  Because we can't see them in the dark.  And if you are going to use the word 'light' and 'spirit' interchangeably, then we should be able to see someone's spirit in the dark too. 

Do I really have to explain that, though?  Seriously? 

So to consider and understand this nature of a person, makes it easier to see past physical acts, as they are temporary, and not wholly defining them.  Light is not temporary, it is eternal and infinite,  as so according to even science, the known universe started with infinite density and energy.

Light is not eternal and infinite.  Who told you it was?   It requires a source and once that source is gone, the light is gone.  I don't think this argument is in your favor here, because if that were true, when the person dies, so does the light (or spirit, or whatever else you've decided to call it).  It doesn't last forever. 

Gill, you're just throwing up junk now and hoping it sticks.  I know you've probably worked all this out in your mind and you are just struggling to show us what you're thinking, but we get it.  We know what you're trying to say.  You've been culturally indoctrinated (just like we have) to think in terms of spirit and essence and souls and all that stuff that really, when you honestly think about it, has no meaning at all.  They are terms that people have concocted because they really want to think there is more to this world and that they completely understand how it all works.  But they don't, and neither do you.  Neither do we, for that matter. 

The difference comes in the fact that we atheists generally know that even if there IS something else, we don't have any idea what it is yet, because there is just no evidence for it.  People like you, and other religious people all generally fall all over yourselves saying how wonderful and beautiful it is that we have spirits and souls and all that stuff.  That's what you've been led to believe for many years... by people you trust, who also believe the same thing.  Unfortunately, all that stuff is just white noise until you can prove, in some meaningful way, that something like a spirit or a soul exists.  Until then, the most logical stance to take is to say, "I don't know if there is something else out there. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't." 

And btw I'm not trying to avoid the question by replacing 'spirit' with 'light', it's just they have similar qualities

So you really are saying that a spirit is electromagnetic radiation in the visible spectrum?  What qualities do spirits and lights have in common? 

it's just about paying attention to the more absolute nature of a person, rather than more temporary restraints......

We get it Gill.  You want to think of people in terms of more than just what they present as physically.  You like to think that way.  We get it.  That doesn't mean it's true though.  Everything you know about a person... everything you can see, or otherwise detect about a person comes from the more temporary restraints of their physical being.  Couldn't it simply be that this is the way things work, and you are just too afraid to admit the possibility that this life is all that we get, and that there is nothing permanent about us? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #632 on: December 18, 2011, 09:02:11 AM »
Let's consider the word 'light' in place of spirit.

Why?  What's the purpose of that other than to further muddle the questions by defining words in different ways?  Why not replace the word spirit with 'essence' or 'ectoplasm' or even 'lkajfkldasjlf'?   Light is defined as electromagnetic radiation that is visible to our eyes.  And it's a very small portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.  It's not 'spirit'.  Unless you want to say that spirit is defined as electromagnetic radiation that is visible to our eyes. 


Because I'm trying to relate things in scientific terms, which is something people seem to be okay with here.   
Quote

Light is not eternal and infinite.  Who told you it was?   It requires a source and once that source is gone, the light is gone.  I don't think this argument is in your favor here, because if that were true, when the person dies, so does the light (or spirit, or whatever else you've decided to call it).  It doesn't last forever. 

The big bang theory, which I'm sure you agree with,  starts at a singularity,  an infinite point of energy.   Therefore all electromagnetic waves, including the visible spectrum, are infinite in nature, since electromagnetic waves* are energy.   You don't destroy light, that would contradict all of the conservation principles in science.

Quote
Gill, you're just throwing up junk now and hoping it sticks.  I know you've probably worked all this out in your mind and you are just struggling to show us what you're thinking, but we get it.  We know what you're trying to say.  You've been culturally indoctrinated (just like we have) to think in terms of spirit and essence and souls and all that stuff that really, when you honestly think about it, has no meaning at all.  They are terms that people have concocted because they really want to think there is more to this world and that they completely understand how it all works.  But they don't, and neither do you.  Neither do we, for that matter. 

The difference comes in the fact that we atheists generally know that even if there IS something else, we don't have any idea what it is yet, because there is just no evidence for it.  People like you, and other religious people all generally fall all over yourselves saying how wonderful and beautiful it is that we have spirits and souls and all that stuff.  That's what you've been led to believe for many years... by people you trust, who also believe the same thing.  Unfortunately, all that stuff is just white noise until you can prove, in some meaningful way, that something like a spirit or a soul exists.  Until then, the most logical stance to take is to say, "I don't know if there is something else out there. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't." 

You got me wrong.  I was culturally indoctrinated to only believe in the physical, matter.   Then I realized how limiting this perspective is....
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 09:05:02 AM by Gill »

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #633 on: December 18, 2011, 09:03:21 AM »
Couldn't it simply be that this is the way things work, and you are just too afraid to admit the possibility that this life is all that we get, and that there is nothing permanent about us?

No, because that idea contradicts all my rational, and even science, imho.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #634 on: December 18, 2011, 09:06:49 AM »
The big bang theory, which I'm sure you agree with,  starts at a singularity,  an infinite point of energy.

A singularity is a point where the space-time curvature is infinite.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #635 on: December 18, 2011, 09:23:42 AM »
Yeah, but it includes temperature, therefore energy also....

http://www.universaltheory.org/html/basics/singularity/singularity8.htm

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #636 on: December 18, 2011, 10:43:34 AM »
...Well I think part of forgiveness is understanding.  A person gets past the temporary emotions of anger and what not, to be replaced by understanding of that person.   And,  I'm not saying one has to agree with the person to understand...

This is called empathy. All of us have it to some degree (unless one is a sociopath). There's no need to make some artificial difference between believers and non believers based on your perception of spirit or light. I can empathize with an atheist, a christian, a muslim, a buddhist, taoist, druid ... we still have lots in common with each other. If you can't empathize with an atheist because you believe we don't have this light or whatever, then you aren't trying hard enough.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #637 on: December 18, 2011, 10:53:38 AM »
...Well I think part of forgiveness is understanding.  A person gets past the temporary emotions of anger and what not, to be replaced by understanding of that person.   And,  I'm not saying one has to agree with the person to understand...

This is called empathy. All of us have it to some degree (unless one is a sociopath). There's no need to make some artificial difference between believers and non believers based on your perception of spirit or light. I can empathize with an atheist, a christian, a muslim, a buddhist, taoist, druid ... we still have lots in common with each other. If you can't empathize with an atheist because you believe we don't have this light or whatever, then you aren't trying hard enough.

I think you misinterpret my comment.   I don't see non-believers as not having a spirit.  Everyone has one.  'Spirit' being that part of one which is immaterial and eternal.