Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 25597 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #580 on: December 15, 2011, 04:59:44 AM »
So, they don't need to ask for proof, say, of anyone who claims that they feel bad, or good, they accept it. Yet if a person claims a perception of God, well, that can't be accepted, there must be totally objective proof, do I have this about right now?

Why does it matter?

If you want to believe in a vague amporphous non-interventionist god, then quite frankly that's down to you.  Good luck, enjoy yourself, have a good life - I don't care.

If you want to claim that you have had experiences that are completely unverifiable, then again - woo-hoo.  Glad you enjoyed them.  But why should I care?  Frankly, its as interesting (or not) as hearing about what you dreamed about last night.

Where I start to care is what you're going to DO as a result of your experiences.  If as a result you are going to pat more dogs, help more little old ladies over the road, and drop an extra few coins in the charity tin, then good show - glad you believe you had those experiences.

But if your personal and unverifiable experiences are going to make you campaign against same sex marriage, treat people without those experiences as second-class citizens, and go to war on the basis of them....then I DO care, very much.  If you are going to take negative actions based on your dreams personal experiences, then its important to me.  If you're going to rally others to your banner, then its important.  If there IS this god out there, and if its sitting in judgement on you, me, all of us...then its even more important.

So that's the questions I've got.  How important is your god, and what it wants, to me?  If its irrelevant to me, and you've got no way of proving it, then I'll duck out of this discussion now.  Talking about peoples dreams has never really interested me, to be honest.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #581 on: December 15, 2011, 10:08:40 AM »
nice post, anfauglir.  And Gill, I really do want to know what you accept as evidence as I asked in my last post.
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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #582 on: December 15, 2011, 02:55:08 PM »
I think it's relevant to everyone Anfauglir.  Where do you get your morals, and sense of purpose and such?  I'm not trying to convert anyone here to any religion since I personally don't adhere to any strict religion, although I can identify with a couple.    Just at best hope to make people look at different angles of their own beliefs.   I know I have.  I've read all the replies, even though I won't respond to them all right now, there's quite a bit of stuff, they've really made me question myself.   That's good though,  I'm open minded.   This is mental stimulation for me I suppose.

I'm sure people here don't like it when strictly religious people won't budge or try to be more open about any of their beliefs.   So you know, maybe people will expand their perspective a little with all this,  I seriously all ready have.

 

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #583 on: December 15, 2011, 02:57:31 PM »
nice post, anfauglir.  And Gill, I really do want to know what you accept as evidence as I asked in my last post.

I find certain personal experiences to be inspiring me,  near-death experiences are an example.   I also find rational arguments alone can lead me to the idea that there is evidence of something beyond the physical.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #584 on: December 15, 2011, 02:58:59 PM »
I have reasons ranging from 100% selfish to 100% selfless (or as close to 100% on both cases as possible) to justify my morality. Which do you prefer to hear about?

I find certain personal experiences to be inspiring me,  near-death experiences are an example.

NDE's have been explained and can be reproduced without the ND part.

I also find rational arguments alone can lead me to the idea that there is evidence of something beyond the physical.

I hope this isn't all you're going to say about this.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #585 on: December 15, 2011, 03:57:41 PM »
I find certain personal experiences to be inspiring me,  near-death experiences are an example.   I also find rational arguments alone can lead me to the idea that there is evidence of something beyond the physical.
sigh.  what kind of personal experiences?  NDEs have been shown to be simple physiological responses.  And what rational arguments? 

and really, this?
Quote
I think it's relevant to everyone Anfauglir.  Where do you get your morals, and sense of purpose and such?  I'm not trying to convert anyone here to any religion since I personally don't adhere to any strict religion, although I can identify with a couple.    Just at best hope to make people look at different angles of their own beliefs.   I know I have.  I've read all the replies, even though I won't respond to them all right now, there's quite a bit of stuff, they've really made me question myself.   That's good though,  I'm open minded.   This is mental stimulation for me I suppose.
  this is all you have, the pathetic where do morals come from?  Well, dear, show me they don’t come from Ooga-Booga in the galaxy 54986.  They come from human brains and human civilization.  no god needed.  And you’ve just come up with your own religion, congratulations.  I get my sense of purpose from what I like and don’t like.  no god needed. 

I do have a question, though.  It seems that you do have some religions that you feel are wrong aka don’t identify with.  What are they wrong about and why?  How do you know?

Quote
I'm sure people here don't like it when strictly religious people won't budge or try to be more open about any of their beliefs.   So you know, maybe people will expand their perspective a little with all this,  I seriously all ready have.
I will only expand my perspective if you can show that you are even remotely correct with your claims.  This seems to be the old “but but, atheists are closed minded since they dont’ accept my claims without question” nonsense that I see from so many theists.  I’ve been a Christian, dabbled with Wicca, love to read about ancient astronauts, etc. They all fail miserably, and everyone of them have believers who make the same claims you do. 
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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #586 on: December 15, 2011, 04:56:44 PM »
My overall point being we are not detached observers of the universe, but our consciousness playing an active role in what we call reality.   This is not solipsism, simply the acknowledgement that an objective description of reality is not the only avenue to understanding what you might call truth, or real....

What other avenues have you got, and how can you demonstrate that they produce accurate information about reality ("spiritual" or otherwise)?  So far you've talked about emotions.  Well, emotions don't actually tell you about external reality, they tell you how you feel about some perceived external reality.

Let's say you have a picture of a brain tumor, and you show it to different people.

An ancient Egyptian priest doesn't know what it is, but feels a sense of dread, because the image appears to be some undefined metaphysical Chaos, and the photograph itself seems to be something beyond human ken.

An art professor doesn't know what it its, but feels contempt, because it looks like an incongruous blending of Dadaism and Surrealism.

A woman sees it and bursts into tears: it is the tumor that killed her husband.

A medical researcher sees it and feels elation: the image confirms his new theory about brain tumors, and he's sure he'll be able to use the data to develop a more effective treatment.

All of these people had different emotional reactions to the tumor, but their reactions tell you things about them, not about the tumor.  In like manner, you have a positive emotional reaction to your particular idea of "God."  That just tells us about you, and offers us no information about God.  A fundamentalist Muslim has powerfully favorable emotional reactions to the idea that "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammad is His Prophet."  A Christian fundamentalist has powerfully favorable emotional reactions to "Jesus saves!"  Yet, their emotional reactions to each other's conceptions of the divine--and to yours--are highly negative.  Heretic!  Infidel!

Are you an unbeliever (in the One, True God), deserving of everlasting torment in Hell as punishment for your unbelief?  There are quite a few people whose emotional reactions about their various deities would say yes.  Yet, that doesn't persuade you that they've uncovered Spiritual Truthtm and that you need to repent and either accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, or start praying toward Mecca five times every day.  So why should your emotions persuade us (or the fundamentalists, for that matter) of anything?

So far you have not offered any methodology by which we could come to agree with you about the nature of the divine, rather than someone else whose emotions say you're deceived by Satan.

Well said. 

I would just have to say that yes,  those different perceptions of the tumor, contain much subjective insights.  The doctor, for his purpose, would care to look at more objective qualities of the tumor.  He may measure mass, volume and so forth.

But, it is not that the doctor's observations are more real than the others.  Reality, in the general sense, I think encompasses all perceptions, the subjective and objective.  Therefore, the doctor, although could say to be observing more objective parts, is still only focusing on certain particular parts, and not the whole of reality.

People may think such an idea of reality just leads to ridiculous ideas such as one could say a pink bunny, or whatever comes to their imagination is just as real as something physical.

This is not what I'm saying though.  This is kind of abstract.  What I'm getting at is that the awareness itself, that the objective observations are inherently limiting as to the whole of reality, is evidence that there is more than physical reality which is valid.

I don't mean that it's fine then to just believe whatever we imagine to believe, but that it is within reason itself, to acknowledge that which is not described physically, as having validity in terms of reality.

Why should my emotions persuade you of anything?  Maybe they don't.  But I assume that yours do.   And I'm sure you consider them valid.  Now, you may say but they don't affect the external.  But they do, since emotions can motivate people to do things and therefore they lead to changes in  the external world.  Not in the sense of breaking the laws of physics.  But they don't have to break them to change reality as a whole.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #587 on: December 15, 2011, 05:02:56 PM »
Well said.

If you read kcrady's posts regularly, you're going to find yourself saying that a lot.   ;)
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #588 on: December 16, 2011, 07:34:32 AM »
21 pages, dozens of rational points utterly destroying his pathetic argument, and he still hasn't budged. This is why I said religious debate is pointless. Fools like the OP are beyond repair until the medical profession acknowledges that religion is a mental disorder. It's hard to cure insanity when 2/3 of the world is afflicted with variations of the same disease, and they consider any attempt to cure them an attack. It's like an insane asylum where all the patients are convinced they are the doctors.

We will win this war in the end, as history has shown a thousand times. Just go ask any follower of Zeus, Odin, or Ra. Jesus will be added to that list, but before that happens the insane believers will lash out with ever increasing ferocity. As science shows their belief system to be ever more rediculous, and they cling yet harder to it, they will show themselves to be fools.

The important thing to focus on is making sure that they aren't allowed to impose their insane beliefs on others, including (or especially) children, and letting other rational people know that they are not alone and shouldn't be ashamed to be 'good without God.'
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #589 on: December 16, 2011, 09:17:11 AM »
Where do you get your morals, and sense of purpose and such?   

I use myself as a baseline....what do I like happening to me? 
Then I look around - what do other people like happening to them? 
Then I think - how can the two be reconciled?

Where both you and I are happy, I call that good.
Where both you and I are UNhappy, I call that bad.
Where you and I disagree, I consider how we would want to be treated if the psoitions were reversed.  I consider what the consequences would be of the actions if they were taken - does doing one thing we disagree on lead to an outcome that we both agree would be wrong?

In that way, I come to an answer based on rationality and shared human experiences.  And in so doing, I arrive at a morality that can be demonstrated as being one that can be justified.

What I don't do is base my morality on what I happen to have dreamed about last night, or on what some hypothetical insubstantial and undemonstrable woo-being whispers in my ear - and my ear alone - because that is a route that leads to unbalanced and unshared morality.

Does that answer your question Gill?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #590 on: December 16, 2011, 11:03:28 AM »
21 pages, dozens of rational points utterly destroying his pathetic argument, and he still hasn't budged. This is why I said religious debate is pointless. Fools like the OP are beyond repair until the medical profession acknowledges that religion is a mental disorder. It's hard to cure insanity when 2/3 of the world is afflicted with variations of the same disease, and they consider any attempt to cure them an attack. It's like an insane asylum where all the patients are convinced they are the doctors.

We will win this war in the end, as history has shown a thousand times. Just go ask any follower of Zeus, Odin, or Ra. Jesus will be added to that list, but before that happens the insane believers will lash out with ever increasing ferocity. As science shows their belief system to be ever more rediculous, and they cling yet harder to it, they will show themselves to be fools.

The important thing to focus on is making sure that they aren't allowed to impose their insane beliefs on others, including (or especially) children, and letting other rational people know that they are not alone and shouldn't be ashamed to be 'good without God.'
Off-topic and needlessly abrasive.  Also, presenting opinions as facts.

Also, if you'd bothered to actually read the thread, you'd have realized that the OP was either a troll or a poe.

Offline Traveler

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #591 on: December 16, 2011, 01:41:39 PM »
I have a theory that a lot of people hope the world is the way they want it to be, and they believe accordingly. And of course, they often have to conjure up some fairly crazy beliefs to make this all seem real to them. Facts can't be allowed to get in the way. Emotion is allowed. At least as long as it accomplishes something....

I hear ya. I tend to believe that life is fair, everyone is kind at heart, and that everyone means well. When will I learn???  ;D :o ;D
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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #592 on: December 16, 2011, 06:46:16 PM »
...

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #593 on: December 16, 2011, 06:49:29 PM »
Where do you get your morals, and sense of purpose and such?   

I use myself as a baseline....what do I like happening to me? 
Then I look around - what do other people like happening to them? 
Then I think - how can the two be reconciled?

Where both you and I are happy, I call that good.
Where both you and I are UNhappy, I call that bad.
Where you and I disagree, I consider how we would want to be treated if the psoitions were reversed.  I consider what the consequences would be of the actions if they were taken - does doing one thing we disagree on lead to an outcome that we both agree would be wrong?

In that way, I come to an answer based on rationality and shared human experiences.  And in so doing, I arrive at a morality that can be demonstrated as being one that can be justified.

What I don't do is base my morality on what I happen to have dreamed about last night, or on what some hypothetical insubstantial and undemonstrable woo-being whispers in my ear - and my ear alone - because that is a route that leads to unbalanced and unshared morality.

Does that answer your question Gill?

Yes, thanks for the reply.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #594 on: December 16, 2011, 06:56:56 PM »
Joe isn't here to debate.  He made that clear in a big 'ol thread in which he declared that debating religion (or debating with the religious - and you're included in that) was pointless.  So don't expect him to debate you.  He'll do stuff other than debate though, like mock and insult.  Apparently that's supposed to be more effective.  I suppose it is, in some situations, but...this one?  Anyway...

Science is not some source of ultimate true knowledge, there are many avenues to knowledge.  I studied it in college, understand it's premise quite well and so I'm willing to debate anyone about it,    but not you of course,  since you have to resort to personal attacks to try to get your point across, since you can make no point.  At least others can show some class although they may disagree.

By "studied it in college" do you mean that you took a single year-long introduction-to-philosophy course?  Those tend to emphasize different ways-of-knowing.  But that doesn't mean that all of those ways are equally valid.  Could you be more specific about which avenues of knowledge you think are equally valid to science?

It would be helpful if you stated what you mean by science, and also if you stated ahead of time whether you believe reality to be coherent.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #595 on: December 16, 2011, 06:59:15 PM »
Yes, thanks for the reply.

Since you asked it of Anfauglir, and since he answered so fully - perhaps you could answer the same question?  Where do you get your morals from?
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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #596 on: December 16, 2011, 07:27:53 PM »
Joe isn't here to debate.  He made that clear in a big 'ol thread in which he declared that debating religion (or debating with the religious - and you're included in that) was pointless.  So don't expect him to debate you.  He'll do stuff other than debate though, like mock and insult.  Apparently that's supposed to be more effective.  I suppose it is, in some situations, but...this one?  Anyway...

Science is not some source of ultimate true knowledge, there are many avenues to knowledge.  I studied it in college, understand it's premise quite well and so I'm willing to debate anyone about it,    but not you of course,  since you have to resort to personal attacks to try to get your point across, since you can make no point.  At least others can show some class although they may disagree.

By "studied it in college" do you mean that you took a single year-long introduction-to-philosophy course?  Those tend to emphasize different ways-of-knowing.  But that doesn't mean that all of those ways are equally valid.  Could you be more specific about which avenues of knowledge you think are equally valid to science?

It would be helpful if you stated what you mean by science, and also if you stated ahead of time whether you believe reality to be coherent.

Yeah, I deleted that because I realized I don't think his comment was aimed at me, if it was i stand by it.... 

I did take a philosophy course, I certainly don't claim to be any expert in it though.   My main focus was math and science.   I think math is basically rationalism though, and so rationalism is valid.  You don't need any physical evidence or data to practice it, only the mind and reason.   So , in that science, such as physics, uses empirical data, but also math to reason, to interpret the meanings of the data, a branch like physics, although thought of as 'physical', uses rationalism to make physical points about the world.

I would also include personal experience as valid, but that gets a little more abstract and won't go into it now.

Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #597 on: December 16, 2011, 07:39:40 PM »
Yes, thanks for the reply.

Since you asked it of Anfauglir, and since he answered so fully - perhaps you could answer the same question?  Where do you get your morals from?

 I think many have developed through just personal experience, although some seem almost like an innate sense.   I think also believing in a 'higher power' or spiritual nature of people does change my moral sense though.  For one,  I feel I'm more forgiving now.  You know someone angers me for whatever, if I see them as a spiritual being, not just some hunk of flesh, I can look past it quicker.   

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #598 on: December 16, 2011, 07:41:13 PM »
Yeah, I deleted that because I realized I don't think his comment was aimed at me, if it was i stand by it....

Hard to say who it was aimed at.  He didn't specify.  Makes more sense if it wasn't at you, but then it'd also be entirely off-topic to the state of the thread...

I did take a philosophy course, I certainly don't claim to be any expert in it though.   My main focus was math and science.   I think math is basically rationalism though, and so rationalism is valid.

Math can make claims about itself.  So can any coherent system.  Math, logic - they are tools, Gill.  Tools with which we can process reality.  There are other, poorer tools, too.  But they're all still just tools.

You don't need any physical evidence or data to practice it, only the mind and reason.

To practice it at doing what?  At making claims about itself?  Sure.  At making claims about reality, outside of the mathematical system itself?  Not so much.  Not without data from reality.

So , in that science, such as physics, uses empirical data, but also math to reason, to interpret the meanings of the data, a branch like physics, although thought of as 'physical', uses rationalism to make physical points about the world.

Excellent example.  What about reality can be determined through pure math or through pure logic?  Go back to Descartes.  Remove all data.  Work only with reason.  Can anything be determined at all?  Descartes thought that the existence of the mind can be deductively determined, but that only works if you allow yourself to use empirical data about observing your own thought process.  And even it can have myriad interpretations, once you remove yourself from anything you already knew about reality.

So really, you need logic + empiricism.  Which, incidentally, is a crude description of science...

I would also include personal experience as valid, but that gets a little more abstract and won't go into it now.

Why not?  It's entirely on-topic.  First though, what do you mean by "knowing"?  Depending on what you mean, you may be correct.  Also, could you answer my earlier question about whether you believe reality to be coherent?
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #599 on: December 16, 2011, 07:42:53 PM »
I think many have developed through just personal experience, although some seem almost like an innate sense.

A lot of things about our personal experiences end up feeling "innate" once they're internalized for a long period.  Especially if we aren't consciously aware of the inputs.  Makes sense.

I think also believing in a 'higher power' or spiritual nature of people does change my moral sense though.  For one,  I feel I'm more forgiving now.  You know someone angers me for whatever, if I see them as a spiritual being, not just some hunk of flesh, I can look past it quicker.

Isn't your belief in a higher power just acting as another personal experience, then?
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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #600 on: December 16, 2011, 07:59:51 PM »
...

So really, you need logic + empiricism.  Which, incidentally, is a crude description of science...


Yeah, I'd say some of both is the best,  they kind of naturally work together.

I would also include personal experience as valid, but that gets a little more abstract and won't go into it now.

Why not?  It's entirely on-topic.  First though, what do you mean by "knowing"?  Depending on what you mean, you may be correct.  Also, could you answer my earlier question about whether you believe reality to be coherent?
[/quote]

Meh, I'm a little tired now, I can't expand upon it much now. But,   just some first ideas that come to me though is that the experience of something contains much more information, therefore knowledge about that thing, than we could be conscious of at any one moment.   For instance, I could write a book on how to drive a car, and have someone read it who doesn't know how.  But he won't be able to drive well  until he experiences it, the senses, the reasoning, the emotions, all tie in to that knowledge.

I'm not sure what you mean by reality being coherent....

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #601 on: December 16, 2011, 08:48:29 PM »
MadBunny

Unfortunately, I go through a lot of life not thinking much about my faith.  I have a good job, I am able to buy groceries, great kids (a little prejudice there I'm sure), great wife (a little prejudice there too I'm sure), my car starts, my refrigerator runs, my furnace is working, etc, etc.

But when it comes to my soul....do you ever think about that?  Do you have a soul?  Do you have a unique identifier, say, different from your a dog or a cat?  Are you unique?  Or just some evolved animal no different than a dog, pig, or cat?  I know dogs and cats are unique but when it comes right down to it, are they?  Are you?

No, I never think about your soul.

I am unique because I am an amalgamation of all my life's experiences which no other person has experienced.  I am unique because genetically my brain interprets things based on it's abilities, and my body as well.  If I were a dog, my brain and body would dictate that my life's experiences and abilities be very different than what they were.  If I had perfect pitch, or 20/10 eyesight, or even different skin pigmentation my experiences  and abilities would have been equally different.  Every person who interacts with me is the same in this respect; unique.

In short, we are who we are because our bodies and experiences shape us.
I don't need faith for that.

I don't need your god for that.
*You* don't need your god for that either.

You can't prove that your god exists, therefore you choose to have 'faith' that it does.  If your god were real, you would not need faith, you'd have proof.

This is what is so confusing about being evolved from a simple cell (or amino acid or some other early chemical combination that came alive) formed in a primordial soup (your worldview word, not mine).  So a bacteria is unique from another bacteria because it's body and experience shaped it?  I guess from a bacteria's point of view it would be. They are becoming more resilient to antibiotics.  So what will they be next? 

Imagine if there is a God.  Would His view of us be different?  If He created both.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #602 on: December 16, 2011, 09:26:51 PM »

.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes? 


you lie    ........................don't forget to scroll right for some reality


No, you believe a lie.

OK, when medical professionals want to diagnose what is wrong with you do they take all of your blood?  No, they take a sample and assume the sample represents the whole.  I will attempt this approach with your post.  I am responding to 3 of the 439 contradictions, but, I want you to look at all of them and give me 3 that bring it home for you that the Bible is a lie and I will respond to those three.

#1  How many men did the chief of David's captain's kill?  2 Sam 23:8 and 1 Chron 11:11

You need to read on...There were 30 chiefs and the text in both references was talking about 3 in particular:  Italics mine

2 Sam 23:8  These be the names of the mighty men whom David had: The Tachmonite that sat in the seat, chief among the captains; the same was Adino the Eznite: he lift up his spear against eight hundred, whom he slew at one time. 

Study Hebrew, "the same" meaning equal in stature, one of the thirty, was Adino (800), follow along....

Now starting in 23:13  And three of the thirty chief went down, and came to David in the harvest time unto the cave of Adullam: and the troop of the Philistines pitched in the valley of Rephaim.  And David was then in an hold, and the garrison of the Philistines was then in Bethlehem. And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the LORD.

1 Chron starting in  11:11 And this is the number of the mighty men whom David had; Jashobeam, an Hachmonite, the chief of the captains: he lifted up his spear against three hundred slain (300) by him at one time. And David longed, and said, Oh that one would give me drink of the water of the well of Bethlehem, that is at the gate! And the three brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: but David would not drink of it, but poured it out to the LORD.

#31  Should you answer a fool according to hid folly? Proverbs 26:5 and 26:6  Good question I'm including verse 4

4Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

 5Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

 6He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.

I don't see the conflict here.  I read it as saying that by my responding to you I make you look wise.  I am not sending a message through a fool, God may be sending a message through me, but I'm not responding or sending a message to you through a fool.

#392  Was Jesus Peaceful? several scriptures listed.  Jesus said: Matt 10:34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."  Yet He is the Prince of Peace.  A book is needed here.
Again I challenge you!  Pick three of the 439 of these proving the Bible a lie.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #603 on: December 16, 2011, 09:36:18 PM »
Matt Dillahunty commented on the Abraham/Isaac story on a podcast a couple of months or so ago.  His whole take on it was this: if a supernatural being of some kind were to come down and order Abraham to sacrifice his son, the proper response from Abraham would have been, "I don't know who you are, but whoever you are, you cannot possibly be the deity I worship because he is a loving being who would never command me to do something so horrible.  Therefore, I will not obey you."

From Richard Carrier in 2001:
Infidels.org -- From Taoist to Infidel
Quote
It was bad enough that this God's idea of the "best" in man is a willingness to murder one's own child on demand. It is inconceivable that any kind being would ever test Abraham's loyalty that way. To the contrary, from any compassionate being's point of view, Abraham failed this test: he was willing to kill for faith, setting morality aside for a god. A decent being would reward instead the man who responded to such a request with "Go to hell! Only a demon would ask such a thing, and no compassionate man would do it!" But the Bible's message is exactly the opposite. How frightening. It was no surprise, then, to find that this same cruel God orders people to be stoned to death for picking up sticks on Saturday (Numbers 15:32-36)

Abraham knew the promise!  It wasn't like some guy hanging out and all of a sudden blam!  Someone calling himself god came along and said: "kill your kid"!  The culture of the time and Biblicaly Issac was well aware of the promise and what was going on.

Again it's a shadow of what was to come.  This is very early on in the covenant.  Where else in the Bible does God ask anyone to offer their son.  And you obviously missed my point about offering, which is what God asked Abraham to do, not KILL (I agree, it involved a sacrifice, but, I don't know why this is such a problem for you).  You need to understand what it means to offer something to God.  Issac was all for it. 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #604 on: December 16, 2011, 09:39:21 PM »
Yeah, I'd say some of both is the best,  they kind of naturally work together.

Not only "the best", but utterly required, IMO.  Omit one entirely and the other is neutered.

Meh, I'm a little tired now, I can't expand upon it much now. But,   just some first ideas that come to me though is that the experience of something contains much more information, therefore knowledge about that thing, than we could be conscious of at any one moment.   For instance, I could write a book on how to drive a car, and have someone read it who doesn't know how.  But he won't be able to drive well  until he experiences it, the senses, the reasoning, the emotions, all tie in to that knowledge.

So, you include "habits" - the unconscious experience-made-easy pathways in our brain - to be a form of knowledge.  That works.  But only unconsciously.  Those pathways can't be plugged into a reasoning process, and they also make no assertions, in themselves, about reality.  You "know" how to drive, but only in the sense that your brain and body automatically react to it.  You "know" how to drive, in a similar sense to how your computer after getting a new game on its hard drive "knows" how to render graphics.  It's become sort of hardwired, due to experience.  This kind of "knowledge" has more in common with instincts, than it does with facts.  That's not to denigrate it, only to say that it's a different topic and may not earn the use of the same word to describe it.

I'm not sure what you mean by reality being coherent....

As in, a definite state.  Where X = X, and X =|= not-X.  As in, one moment's reality actually depending on what was real the moment before.  That sort of thing.

The alternative is incoherent chaos.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline wright

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #605 on: December 16, 2011, 10:04:25 PM »

This is what is so confusing about being evolved from a simple cell (or amino acid or some other early chemical combination that came alive) formed in a primordial soup (your worldview word, not mine).

It's not clear what you're confused about, at least to me. Evolutionary theory? Madbunny's explanation of why he's unique?

Quote
So a bacteria is unique from another bacteria because it's body and experience shaped it?  I guess from a bacteria's point of view it would be. They are becoming more resilient to antibiotics.  So what will they be next?

I guess that would depend on the changes to their genome (mutation) and their overall environment. Scarcity of food might favor those who can make do with less, or get around faster to find food before others, or simply reproduce faster. A surplus of food would cause other features to be favored, and so forth. 

Quote
Imagine if there is a God.  Would His view of us be different?  If He created both.

If there really is a creator of the universe, then it seems likely it would be at best indifferent to living things, at least on this planet. Conditions throughout the majority of the universe are  inimical to any life we know: utterly cold, no atmosphere, no water, no nearby stars. And that's just between stars in our galaxy; the voids between galaxies and galactic clusters are quite beyond (literally) our capacity to grasp intuitively.

Such mind-boggling emptiness does not indicate (to me, anyway) a god that cares about the existence of matter, let alone such a transient, fragile phenomena as life. So no: if it noticed our world at all, I don't think it would see any difference between us and bacteria.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #606 on: December 16, 2011, 10:11:07 PM »
Blah, Blah, whatever...
Tactful, to refer to something that you're responding to as "blah, blah, whatever".  You think you could make it even more obvious that you didn't even bother to read most of it? 

Quote from: jtp56
"Age and cunning trumps youth and strength."  Really?  If your about to get waxed, even by your old man (given your world view), really?  He coulda sooo turned things around.
It's obvious you've never heard of this quote.  What it means is that experience almost always wins out over ability.  And what part of "he was already bound and helpless on the altar" don't you understand?

Quote from: jtp56
This goes back to blah, blah, being brought up a christian, blah, blah...  I was 28 raised on your world view!  My science fair project was on continuous creation!  I escaped the knife of hell!
You know exactly two things about my worldview, jack and squat.  I'll give you a hint, I wasn't brought up on an atheistic worldview.  And hell is a conception of early Christians to intimidate nonbelievers into converting 'voluntarily'.  It's lasted this long because Christians are too terrified of hell to question the ridiculousness of "God loves you, and if you don't accept this, then you can burn for eternity".

Quote from: jtp56
"So...God isn't sure of believers?"  He knew before He created the universe.  It's for our benefit.
Typical excuse.  "He knew everything before he did anything, so he's just testing us to help us!"  There's a difference between challenging someone to meet their potential and testing or tempting them to fall beneath it.

Quote from: jtp56
"The fact that you don't want to be judged by God suggests that you know you would not pass such a judgment.  I suspect you have not considered the possibility that "you are saved if you believe in Jesus" is a test to see what believers will take the easy way out instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes."

No!  This question really applies to you.  Are you ready to take on the "responsibility" of your mistakes?  I don't and I wouldn't pass the test.  It doesn't necessarily mean an easy way out.  Jesus said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."  Jesus never said it was easy.
I already do take responsibility for my mistakes.  If I do something wrong, or I hurt someone, I apologize for it and make amends.  I also do my best to avoid making mistakes in the first place.  Your attitude towards your mistakes is too craven for words to describe.  Do you truly think Jesus or God are just simply going to say, "Okay, you're a born-again Christian, congrats, here's your free pass into heaven"?  If there is an afterlife where people face judgment, why do you think that simply believing and having faith would be enough to get you out of it?  Assuming that you're destined for heaven simply because you call yourself a Christian, believing that you can get out of facing judgment for your own actions, is the easy path that leads to destruction.

Quote from: jtp56
"You clearly aren't willing to love atheists",  My love for you has nothing to do with it!  I don't love you!  You're a stranger to me.  If I got to know you and we had a few beers or whatever I'd probably befriend you like I do most people.  I have great friends with your worldview, one made me a Scotch man.  This is a blog for crying out loud.  Jesus told His apostle Peter when Peter figured it out: "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven".  I can't convince you of the reality of Jesus, only God can.  My prayer for you is that He will do this.  I can type and type and type and type until my fingers turn blue.  It's up to God.  Yet I do believe He "stands at the door and knocks".  Since I've gotten born again I personally figured out it's a circular relationship.  Pharaoh hardened his heart/God hardened his heart, what do you want me to do God/What do you want to do jtp56, etc. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, what do you invite into your heart.  Etc.  Besides, Jesus kicked over the money changers tables, Paul reasoned with the Epicureans, it's not all "Jesus loves you" in my book.
You're missing the point.  It isn't about loving people you get to know.  That's easy.  It's about treating people well without knowing them, being willing to consider them people even though they're different, being able to accept that their worldview is valid even though it's not yours, etc.  And that's something a lot of Christians fail at.  Did you ever consider that it might not be about getting people to accept the so-called "reality of Jesus"?  You focus on Jesus-as-God so much that it blinds you to Jesus's presumed existence as a living human being, and the way he is said to have acted.

Quote from: jtp56
"Everything you and every Christian say God does and did is wholly subjective and thus can't be measured or observed.  That is to say, the 'cause' is believed to be God, which is entirely subjective."

Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.”  It ain't gonna happen.  That is your subjectivity according to your definition of it.
That's an excuse, and a particularly bad one.  You're basically saying that God is just not willing to provide any proof and expects people to believe without facts or evidence, and that's simply lazy.

Quote from: jtp56
"People who do evil in God's name have just as strong of beliefs and just as much conviction as those who do good in God's name.  As for not being able to measure up, that's just an excuse to avoid trying"

You shall know them by their fruit: "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"
By far, the majority of the Christians who have come here have not acted in that manner.  That includes you.  Don't believe me?  Go look at your previous posts and imagine that you were the target of those posts.  Basically, you're using the fact that this is an internet site to justify not acting as you say a Christian should, even if you don't realize it.  There is exactly one Christian I know of who regularly visits here who actually acts like a Christian, OldChurchGuy.  You would do well to go review his posts and see how his behavior differs from yours.

Quote from: jtp56
But I'll tell you what, mess with my wife or kids, I'll blow your brains out.
Just when did I ever intimate that I would mess with your wife or kids, or you?  For that matter, when did anyone here intimate a threat against your wife or kids?  If you take nothing else from this site, I hope you figure out that atheists, as a rule, are opposed to that sort of crap.  Atheism does not equal amorality!

When I say blah, blah, blah...I mean read the post or re-read your own post!

Experience always wins out on ability???  OK you champions of empirical science/evidence, show me this in a study or science article.

Hell is not a concept to scare.  It's acknowledged in Satanism; rock and roll songs boast about how great it is to be a ruler in hell, etc.  I'll just tell you my opinion, I'd rather be the bottom scum of the lowest sewer pipe in heaven than the ruler of hell.

"There's a difference between challenging someone to meet their potential and testing or tempting them to fall beneath it."  This is not about potential.  We all have the "potential" to receive Christ.  It's about believing in God (Faith), you can't meet His standards, it's that you need a savior.  Abraham had Faith, read my blah, blah, blah about Hebrews 11 or the book its self.

The Bible is written for us!!!  It's mans maintenance/operating manual.

"By far, the majority of the Christians who have come here have not acted in that manner.  That includes you.  Don't believe me?  Go look at your previous posts and imagine that you were the target of those posts.  Basically, you're using the fact that this is an internet site to justify not acting as you say a Christian should, even if you don't realize it.  There is exactly one Christian I know of who regularly visits here who actually acts like a Christian, OldChurchGuy.  You would do well to go review his posts and see how his behavior differs from yours."

I agree, but I see myself as kicking over the money changers tables.  OldChurchGuy as teaching the Beatitudes.  What ever it takes man.

I wasn't inferring you personally was going to mess with my wife and kids.  The point I was making was that if someone was, I wouldn't try to reason with them that Jesus loved them, I meant I'd have a 9mm slug waiting for them.  That the Bible isn't all "Jesus loves you".  It talks to today's issues.

"If you take nothing else from this site, I hope you figure out that atheists, as a rule, are opposed to that sort of crap.  Atheism does not equal amorality!"

Tell that to Stalin.  What morality does atheism aspire too?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #607 on: December 16, 2011, 10:20:37 PM »
But when it comes to my soul....do you ever think about that?  Do you have a soul?  Do you have a unique identifier, say, different from your a dog or a cat?  Are you unique?  Or just some evolved animal no different than a dog, pig, or cat?  I know dogs and cats are unique but when it comes right down to it, are they?  Are you?

Define "soul." 

What is it made of?
Does it have mass? Weight? Does it take up space?
If someone holds their breath does that effect the soul's health? 
Where is it located?
Why does it mimic the mind so perfectly which is known to be a function of the physical brain?

The soul/mind/our-unique-being is soooo close to the spirit, that died when Adam ate of the tree (Adam the human being didn't die, his spirit did), that only God can differentiate - Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #608 on: December 16, 2011, 10:23:24 PM »
For some, faith comes easy.  That is why in the Bible God commends those that have pure child-like faith in trusting in Him.  For others, they are wired to be more rational and need factual evidences.  People are different and different people need different ways to come to know God.  For some, hearing the Gospel message really spoke to them at their lives because God had already allowed His grace in their hearts to be able to be "open" to the message of the gospel.  The message in it self is simple, but it also requires God's prevalent grace and more importantly a humble heart.  If you really humble yourself and ask simply for God to show Himself to you in some way, He might.  Most of the people who choose not to believe in God simply choose not to.  The Christian walk is a matter of faith.  Now, it is clearly evident that there must have been creator.  In the same way that humans cannot create themselves, there must have been a creator.  Humans cannot create what God creates for example, dogs, trees, water, etc.  Those things have been created by God.  Now He has given us the ability to create art and music, but who is the one who gives humans that ability.  It certainly does not come from themselves.

Thank you
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.