Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 28721 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #464 on: December 12, 2011, 08:49:46 PM »
I will be paraphrasing what I think your responses are.
Yeah, you might want to paraphrase what they actually say, rather than what you think they're saying.  Less chance of error that way.

Quote from: jtp56
First I want to start with Historicity and Angfauglir and ask them why they are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac?  Think about it! Issac carried the wood (like Jesus carried the cross).  Abraham was an old man when he had Issac so when Issac was hauling the wood up the mountain for the burnt offering, he could have bolted at any time.  He had to be a young man.  He could have overpowered Abraham and burned him up.  Issac did get curious and ask "where is the offering"? (Jesus prayed for the cup to pass [talk about an unanswered prayer!!])   Issac had to be complicit!!  Both he and Jesus were reluctant (human maybe).
First, why are you so hung up on this story being a foretelling of Jesus?  You seem bound and determined to fit this into the Christian mythos, instead of reading it as it actually is.  Second, as for why Isaac did nothing, he was probably quite pampered by Abraham (given that he was born when Abraham and Sarah were both very old), and so had no reason at all to mistrust his father's intentions until he was already bound and helpless on the altar.  Furthermore, even if Isaac was a young man, that probably means he was just barely a man, as in, a teenager.  Age and cunning trumps youth and strength.

Quote from: jtp56
The question was asked: "So tell me then.....where exactly is the "temptation" in Gen 22:1?  If Yahweh knew it was all a fix, and Abraham knew it was all a fix....who exactly got tempted?  And tempted how?"  God tests (tempts) all believers, not you guys, believers.  1 Corinth 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."  God provided a way out for both Abraham and Issac.
So...God isn't sure of believers?  That's the only reason I can think of to test them.  You test those you're not sure of.  As for tempting them, that is just banal, because a temptation is a deliberate effort to get someone to do something wrong.  Furthermore, if Abraham knew that it was a test and that he wouldn't truly be expected to kill his son, then the test was meaningless.

Quote from: jtp56
You guys are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac yet will probably go ballistic against pro-lifers over your support for abortion.
This has nothing to do with anything, and furthermore, it is nonsensical.

Quote from: jtp56
Screwtape asked me if I wanted someone else to be punished for my bad deeds, or am I willing to take responsibility for myself?  Inferring I (jtp) choose to be irresponsible and have someone else take it. "  That's what the Bible says, not me, I'll take it.  I don't want to be judged by God.  I'll receive the judgment God gave Jesus.
The fact that you don't want to be judged by God suggests that you know you would not pass such a judgment.  I suspect you have not considered the possibility that "you are saved if you believe in Jesus" is a test to see what believers will take the easy way out instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes.

Quote from: jtp56
I know plenty of Christians who are irresponsible, don't let the hypocrites stand between you and God.  The Bible says you will know Christians by their fruit - Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."  That's what Christians are supposed to exhibit.
And so far you've exhibited practically none of those 'fruits' towards the people here.  You clearly aren't willing to love atheists, you don't show them peace, you don't forbear from treating them badly, you certainly don't act with kindness or goodness, you're anything but gentle, and the less said about your self-control, the better.  About the only thing you do is show faith, but your faith is a weak and fragile reed, you who are not willing to face God's judgment and instead takes the easy way out.

Quote from: jtp56
Velkyn (kcrady, too), Jesus sacrifice and God's judgment of Him does sound crazy to the rational mind.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes?  Was Jesus that smart He could nail 130+ prophesies without a hitch?  In my mind I don't get it, it's a heart issue.  You must be born again!
The reason it sounds crazy to the rational mind is because it's inherently irrational, based not on actual facts but on emotional beliefs.  There are plenty of obvious signs of hindsight rationalization by Christians to justify Jesus being the prophesied messiah, and more hindsight rationalizations to justify why there are still Jews despite the "coming of the messiah".  But you blatantly ignore all of that and more so that you can hold to your beliefs no matter what.  You are letting your heart rule your head, yet you forget if you ever knew how easy it is for the heart to be misled.

Quote from: jtp56
Velkyn says that I'll be disappointed on my death bed because Jesus didn't return.  I don't anticipate His return in my lifetime, so, I'll die like you will Velkyn.  He is returning for a spotless bride, Christianity has a loooooong way to go.
I wonder if people 2,000 years from now will still be telling themselves this in order to further rationalize why Jesus hasn't come yet.

Quote from: jtp56
Pride!  I was being sarcastic with Historicty!!  He claimed to be better informed or whatever because he read the Bible.  You guys always get "in-our-face" quoting people allegedly smarter than you or having read the Bible or whatever to make you point.  Pride has nothing to do with it.  Let me have some fun.
Like it or not, it came across as pride, which you are now busily claiming wasn't actually pride so you can say you didn't just violate one of the seven deadly sins.  Honestly, do you think God would ignore your sophistry in pretending you didn't mean what you clearly meant?

Quote from: jtp56
Killa:  God is real whether you or I believe in Him or not.
Belief will not cause a real being to become imaginary, nor will it cause an imaginary being to become real.  But real beings have real effects that can be measured and observed.  Everything you and every Christian say God does and did is wholly subjective and thus can't be measured or observed.  That is to say, the 'cause' is believed to be God, which is entirely subjective.

Quote from: jtp56
Believing does not make one feel better about himself.  It brings conviction and a constant reminder that we can never measure up to Jesus or God's expectations, the OT proved that.
Belief brings conviction, all right.  But you would do well to remember that conviction can cut both ways.  People who do evil in God's name have just as strong of beliefs and just as much conviction as those who do good in God's name.  As for not being able to measure up, that's just an excuse to avoid trying.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #465 on: December 12, 2011, 09:24:09 PM »
Bookmark.  Also:

The fact that you don't want to be judged by God suggests that you know you would not pass such a judgment.  I suspect you have not considered the possibility that "you are saved if you believe in Jesus" is a test to see what believers will take the easy way out instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes.

I am so using this in the future.  Love it.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #466 on: December 12, 2011, 10:18:09 PM »
I am sorry guys, but I cannot figure out how to quote like you guys do!  Where my response is obvious.  So I am going to do it by the only way I know how.  I even clicked on help and did a search.

Anyway in response to jaimehlers (relevant points anyway): Blah, Blah, whatever... "Age and cunning trumps youth and strength."  Really?  If your about to get waxed, even by your old man (given your world view), really?  He coulda sooo turned things around.  This goes back to blah, blah, being brought up a christian, blah, blah...  I was 28 raised on your world view!  My science fair project was on continuous creation!  I escaped the knife of hell!

"So...God isn't sure of believers?"  He knew before He created the universe.  It's for our benefit.

"The fact that you don't want to be judged by God suggests that you know you would not pass such a judgment.  I suspect you have not considered the possibility that "you are saved if you believe in Jesus" is a test to see what believers will take the easy way out instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes."

No!  This question really applies to you.  Are you ready to take on the "responsibility" of your mistakes?  I don't and I wouldn't pass the test.  It doesn't necessarily mean an easy way out.  Jesus said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."  Jesus never said it was easy.

"You clearly aren't willing to love atheists",  My love for you has nothing to do with it!  I don't love you!  You're a stranger to me.  If I got to know you and we had a few beers or whatever I'd probably befriend you like I do most people.  I have great friends with your worldview, one made me a Scotch man.  This is a blog for crying out loud.  Jesus told His apostle Peter when Peter figured it out: "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven".  I can't convince you of the reality of Jesus, only God can.  My prayer for you is that He will do this.  I can type and type and type and type until my fingers turn blue.  It's up to God.  Yet I do believe He "stands at the door and knocks".  Since I've gotten born again I personally figured out it's a circular relationship.  Pharaoh hardened his heart/God hardened his heart, what do you want me to do God/What do you want to do jtp56, etc. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, what do you invite into your heart.  Etc.  Besides, Jesus kicked over the money changers tables, Paul reasoned with the Epicureans, it's not all "Jesus loves you" in my book.

"Everything you and every Christian say God does and did is wholly subjective and thus can't be measured or observed.  That is to say, the 'cause' is believed to be God, which is entirely subjective."

Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.”  It ain't gonna happen.  That is your subjectivity according to your definition of it.

"People who do evil in God's name have just as strong of beliefs and just as much conviction as those who do good in God's name.  As for not being able to measure up, that's just an excuse to avoid trying"

You shall know them by their fruit: "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"

But I'll tell you what, mess with my wife or kids, I'll blow your brains out.









Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #467 on: December 12, 2011, 10:28:21 PM »
MadBunny

Unfortunately, I go through a lot of life not thinking much about my faith.  I have a good job, I am able to buy groceries, great kids (a little prejudice there I'm sure), great wife (a little prejudice there too I'm sure), my car starts, my refrigerator runs, my furnace is working, etc, etc.

But when it comes to my soul....do you ever think about that?  Do you have a soul?  Do you have a unique identifier, say, different from your a dog or a cat?  Are you unique?  Or just some evolved animal no different than a dog, pig, or cat?  I know dogs and cats are unique but when it comes right down to it, are they?  Are you?

No, I never think about your soul.

I am unique because I am an amalgamation of all my life's experiences which no other person has experienced.  I am unique because genetically my brain interprets things based on it's abilities, and my body as well.  If I were a dog, my brain and body would dictate that my life's experiences and abilities be very different than what they were.  If I had perfect pitch, or 20/10 eyesight, or even different skin pigmentation my experiences  and abilities would have been equally different.  Every person who interacts with me is the same in this respect; unique.

In short, we are who we are because our bodies and experiences shape us.
I don't need faith for that.

I don't need your god for that.
*You* don't need your god for that either.

You can't prove that your god exists, therefore you choose to have 'faith' that it does.  If your god were real, you would not need faith, you'd have proof.
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #468 on: December 12, 2011, 10:42:37 PM »

.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes? 


you lie    ........................don't forget to scroll right for some reality


http://www.project-reason.org/gallery3/image/105/
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 10:45:39 PM by kin hell »
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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #469 on: December 12, 2011, 11:29:01 PM »
Blah, Blah, whatever...
Tactful, to refer to something that you're responding to as "blah, blah, whatever".  You think you could make it even more obvious that you didn't even bother to read most of it? 

Quote from: jtp56
"Age and cunning trumps youth and strength."  Really?  If your about to get waxed, even by your old man (given your world view), really?  He coulda sooo turned things around.
It's obvious you've never heard of this quote.  What it means is that experience almost always wins out over ability.  And what part of "he was already bound and helpless on the altar" don't you understand?

Quote from: jtp56
This goes back to blah, blah, being brought up a christian, blah, blah...  I was 28 raised on your world view!  My science fair project was on continuous creation!  I escaped the knife of hell!
You know exactly two things about my worldview, jack and squat.  I'll give you a hint, I wasn't brought up on an atheistic worldview.  And hell is a conception of early Christians to intimidate nonbelievers into converting 'voluntarily'.  It's lasted this long because Christians are too terrified of hell to question the ridiculousness of "God loves you, and if you don't accept this, then you can burn for eternity".

Quote from: jtp56
"So...God isn't sure of believers?"  He knew before He created the universe.  It's for our benefit.
Typical excuse.  "He knew everything before he did anything, so he's just testing us to help us!"  There's a difference between challenging someone to meet their potential and testing or tempting them to fall beneath it.

Quote from: jtp56
"The fact that you don't want to be judged by God suggests that you know you would not pass such a judgment.  I suspect you have not considered the possibility that "you are saved if you believe in Jesus" is a test to see what believers will take the easy way out instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes."

No!  This question really applies to you.  Are you ready to take on the "responsibility" of your mistakes?  I don't and I wouldn't pass the test.  It doesn't necessarily mean an easy way out.  Jesus said: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."  Jesus never said it was easy.
I already do take responsibility for my mistakes.  If I do something wrong, or I hurt someone, I apologize for it and make amends.  I also do my best to avoid making mistakes in the first place.  Your attitude towards your mistakes is too craven for words to describe.  Do you truly think Jesus or God are just simply going to say, "Okay, you're a born-again Christian, congrats, here's your free pass into heaven"?  If there is an afterlife where people face judgment, why do you think that simply believing and having faith would be enough to get you out of it?  Assuming that you're destined for heaven simply because you call yourself a Christian, believing that you can get out of facing judgment for your own actions, is the easy path that leads to destruction.

Quote from: jtp56
"You clearly aren't willing to love atheists",  My love for you has nothing to do with it!  I don't love you!  You're a stranger to me.  If I got to know you and we had a few beers or whatever I'd probably befriend you like I do most people.  I have great friends with your worldview, one made me a Scotch man.  This is a blog for crying out loud.  Jesus told His apostle Peter when Peter figured it out: "this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven".  I can't convince you of the reality of Jesus, only God can.  My prayer for you is that He will do this.  I can type and type and type and type until my fingers turn blue.  It's up to God.  Yet I do believe He "stands at the door and knocks".  Since I've gotten born again I personally figured out it's a circular relationship.  Pharaoh hardened his heart/God hardened his heart, what do you want me to do God/What do you want to do jtp56, etc. Jesus stands at the door and knocks, what do you invite into your heart.  Etc.  Besides, Jesus kicked over the money changers tables, Paul reasoned with the Epicureans, it's not all "Jesus loves you" in my book.
You're missing the point.  It isn't about loving people you get to know.  That's easy.  It's about treating people well without knowing them, being willing to consider them people even though they're different, being able to accept that their worldview is valid even though it's not yours, etc.  And that's something a lot of Christians fail at.  Did you ever consider that it might not be about getting people to accept the so-called "reality of Jesus"?  You focus on Jesus-as-God so much that it blinds you to Jesus's presumed existence as a living human being, and the way he is said to have acted.

Quote from: jtp56
"Everything you and every Christian say God does and did is wholly subjective and thus can't be measured or observed.  That is to say, the 'cause' is believed to be God, which is entirely subjective."

Jesus said: "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.”  It ain't gonna happen.  That is your subjectivity according to your definition of it.
That's an excuse, and a particularly bad one.  You're basically saying that God is just not willing to provide any proof and expects people to believe without facts or evidence, and that's simply lazy.

Quote from: jtp56
"People who do evil in God's name have just as strong of beliefs and just as much conviction as those who do good in God's name.  As for not being able to measure up, that's just an excuse to avoid trying"

You shall know them by their fruit: "love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,"
By far, the majority of the Christians who have come here have not acted in that manner.  That includes you.  Don't believe me?  Go look at your previous posts and imagine that you were the target of those posts.  Basically, you're using the fact that this is an internet site to justify not acting as you say a Christian should, even if you don't realize it.  There is exactly one Christian I know of who regularly visits here who actually acts like a Christian, OldChurchGuy.  You would do well to go review his posts and see how his behavior differs from yours.

Quote from: jtp56
But I'll tell you what, mess with my wife or kids, I'll blow your brains out.
Just when did I ever intimate that I would mess with your wife or kids, or you?  For that matter, when did anyone here intimate a threat against your wife or kids?  If you take nothing else from this site, I hope you figure out that atheists, as a rule, are opposed to that sort of crap.  Atheism does not equal amorality!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 11:33:04 PM by jaimehlers »

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #470 on: December 13, 2011, 01:28:49 AM »
The question was asked: "So tell me then.....where exactly is the "temptation" in Gen 22:1?  If Yahweh knew it was all a fix, and Abraham knew it was all a fix....who exactly got tempted?  And tempted how?"  God tests (tempts) all believers, not you guys, believers.  1 Corinth 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."  God provided a way out for both Abraham and Issac.

A way out of what?

You've said god never had any intention for Abraham to actually sacrifice his son.  And you've said that Abraham knew that all along.  So where WAS the temptation?  If Abraham knew, every step of the way, that he was NOT going to have to kill his son, then where is the temptation?  Where is the tension?

Or are you saying that - at some point, anyway - Abraham DID think that god wanted him to go through with it?

Please can you be more specific about where and what exactly the temptation was?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline albeto

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #471 on: December 13, 2011, 02:05:31 AM »
But when it comes to my soul....do you ever think about that?  Do you have a soul?  Do you have a unique identifier, say, different from your a dog or a cat?  Are you unique?  Or just some evolved animal no different than a dog, pig, or cat?  I know dogs and cats are unique but when it comes right down to it, are they?  Are you?

Define "soul." 

What is it made of?
Does it have mass? Weight? Does it take up space?
If someone holds their breath does that effect the soul's health? 
Where is it located?
Why does it mimic the mind so perfectly which is known to be a function of the physical brain? 

Offline songpak3000

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #472 on: December 13, 2011, 03:26:43 AM »
For some, faith comes easy.  That is why in the Bible God commends those that have pure child-like faith in trusting in Him.  For others, they are wired to be more rational and need factual evidences.  People are different and different people need different ways to come to know God.  For some, hearing the Gospel message really spoke to them at their lives because God had already allowed His grace in their hearts to be able to be "open" to the message of the gospel.  The message in it self is simple, but it also requires God's prevalent grace and more importantly a humble heart.  If you really humble yourself and ask simply for God to show Himself to you in some way, He might.  Most of the people who choose not to believe in God simply choose not to.  The Christian walk is a matter of faith.  Now, it is clearly evident that there must have been creator.  In the same way that humans cannot create themselves, there must have been a creator.  Humans cannot create what God creates for example, dogs, trees, water, etc.  Those things have been created by God.  Now He has given us the ability to create art and music, but who is the one who gives humans that ability.  It certainly does not come from themselves.

Offline Historicity

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #473 on: December 13, 2011, 04:20:41 AM »
Most of the people who choose not to believe in God simply choose not to.
There's a case of projection. You think you're describing others but you're describing yourself.  Belief is for you a self-delusion you can choose.  As you say, "For some, faith comes easy."

BTW, don't say things like "Most of the people" until you have data or significant experience in life.  Unless you know a lot of such people and can describe your experience ...

Quote
Now, it is clearly evident that there must have been creator.  In the same way that humans cannot create themselves, there must have been a creator.
Then that creator would "clearly" have a creator and that creator would have a creator and ...

Quote
Humans cannot create what God creates for example, dogs, trees, water, etc.
I've destroyed and created water at home by electrolyzing water and then igniting the hydrogen.

Quote
Now He has given us the ability to create art and music, but who is the one who gives humans that ability.  It certainly does not come from themselves.
"certainly"???    Please justify that.

BTW, the Greeks said goddesses called the Muses gave those abilities.  The Norse said Odin gives the ability to create poetry.  Their beliefs had as much evidence as yours.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #474 on: December 13, 2011, 05:31:57 AM »
1) Most of the people who choose not to believe in God simply choose not to.
2) (Belief) requires God's prevalent grace

Take a look at these two sentences.  You've said that belief requires god to give this "grace" before one can believe....which means that without that "grace", it is impossible to believe.  No choice CAN be made.

For some, hearing the Gospel message really spoke to them at their lives because God had already allowed His grace in their hearts to be able to be "open" to the message of the gospel.  The message in it self is simple, but it also requires God's prevalent grace and more importantly a humble heart.

...and you reinforce it here.  Your god chooses who will  believe - without his prior decision and effort, it is impossible for someone to believe.

Question: why would a loving god withhold his "grace" from a single person?  Should not "grace" be an automatic "gimme" for every single one of god's creations?  Then - and ONLY then - could one say that a particular person could make a "choice".

If you really humble yourself and ask simply for God to show Himself to you in some way, He might. 

Might?  MIGHT?  You mean, you can do everything god would want you to do....and he may still thumb his nose at you and refuse you salvation?  What an evil and malicious being you make him sound! 

Most of the people who choose not to believe in God simply choose not to. 

Gosh....I wonder why THAT may be?  Could it be because they recognise that the tale Christians spin turns out to be a depiction of the most capricious and malevolent being imaginable?  One who creates and then toys with his little puppet playthings?  One who - by your own words - will sometimes watch someone do everything the way he wants....and still end up consigning them to hell?

I repeat - what a monster your god sounds.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #475 on: December 13, 2011, 09:41:14 AM »
Velkyn (kcrady, too), Jesus sacrifice and God's judgment of Him does sound crazy to the rational mind.

So, as a corollary, it sounds rational to a crazy mind? ;)

How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?

You're presupposing that all 40 Biblical authors had Jesus in mind when they wrote.  What is your evidence for this claim?  Since the vast majority of Jews, whose books and religious traditions you're talking about[1] in the time of Jesus and ever since, disagree with your claim, why should we, as neutral bystanders, take your word over theirs? 

Without any contradictions or mistakes?

Here's an exercise for you: In the Gospel of Matthew, the author describes Jesus being taken to Egypt, and then, his return as a fulfillment of a prophecy in the Hebrew Scriptures (the Book of Hosea, IIRC).  Quote the relevant passage from Matthew, and then the passage from Hosea, in its original context.  Then we can see if there are any contradictions or mistakes.... :)

Was Jesus that smart He could nail 130+ prophesies without a hitch?
 

Can you provide a citation for this claim?

In my mind I don't get it, it's a heart issue.  You must be born again!

Here's the problem with this: once you abandon the epistemic hygiene of rationality and fact-checking, anything goes.  "In my mind, I don't get the Quran, it's a heart issue.  You must believe in Allah and Mohammad his Prophet!"  "In my mind, I don't get Wicca, it's a heart issue.  You must call the corners and invoke the Triple Goddess!"  And so on, for any religion or superstition you'd care to name.
 1. That is, prior to the books of the "New Testament," i.e., any potential "prophecies" of the coming of Jesus made in advance.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #476 on: December 13, 2011, 09:50:52 AM »
I am sorry guys, but I cannot figure out how to quote like you guys do! 

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Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #477 on: December 13, 2011, 10:19:37 AM »
Velkyn (kcrady, too), Jesus sacrifice and God's judgment of Him does sound crazy to the rational mind.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes?  Was Jesus that smart He could nail 130+ prophesies without a hitch?  In my mind I don't get it, it's a heart issue.  You must be born again!
  Golly, by there being contradictions and mistakes.  JC doesn’t fullfil many many prophecies, that’s why there are still Jews.  And it’s so cute to use yet more circular arguments.  “you have to believe the way I do to be “really” born again.”  I do love how Christians try so desperately to declare them selves the only TrueChristianstm. 
Quote
Velkyn says that I'll be disappointed on my death bed because Jesus didn't return.  I don't anticipate His return in my lifetime, so, I'll die like you will Velkyn.  He is returning for a spotless bride, Christianity has a loooooong way to go.
But other Christians do anticipate it, so again, who’s the ones with the “right” answer from this god of yours.   And returning for a “spotless” bride?  When is that, jtp? Your magic book in Revelation says that JC will return to wipe the evil from the earth, not to return to an earth with only “good” Christians on it.  Of course, bummer for him, that his dad intentionally allows the “beast” to return and corrupt this bride of his, after killing all of the evil people and JC having a nice little reign over this earth.

Your magic god will never return, jtp.  Christians have been waiting how long now?  Your JC was sure it would return in its story to the point of telling its followers that they should not worry about anything, that the return was coming so very soon.  Funny how Paul had to retcon the nonsense to excuse the no-show by suddenly being all about keeping money, and working, not following JC as being an itinerant preacher depending only on this god for all they need.     
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Pride!  I was being sarcastic with Historicty!!  He claimed to be better informed or whatever because he read the Bible.  You guys always get "in-our-face" quoting people allegedly smarter than you or having read the Bible or whatever to make you point.  Pride has nothing to do with it.  Let me have some fun.
So cute to watch you try to claim you were only “having fun”.  You are so very pathetic.   

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But I'll tell you what, mess with my wife or kids, I'll blow your brains out.
so you really don’t trust your god at all.  Nice.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #478 on: December 13, 2011, 10:21:02 AM »
Screwtape asked me if I wanted someone else to be punished for my bad deeds, or am I willing to take responsibility for myself?  Inferring I (jtp) choose to be irresponsible and have someone else take it. "  That's what the Bible says, not me, I'll take it.  I don't want to be judged by God.  I'll receive the judgment God gave Jesus. 

I know plenty of Christians who are irresponsible, don't let the hypocrites stand between you and God.  The Bible says you will know Christians by their fruit - Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."  That's what Christians are supposed to exhibit.

I find this kind of incoherent and confusing.  I am not sure what you are saying, but it seems to me that you have not answered my question, but rather, regurgitated a bunch of stuff all around it.  Kind of like when you're drunk and puke all over everything except the toilet.

Have you ever heard of a whipping boyWiki?  It was a boy who was assigned to royal youth.  Because royalty was given special privilege and deference, they could not be punished.  So if a royal youth misbehaved, the whipping boy was given the punishment. 

I find the concept intolerable.  I would not stand to have someone else receive my punishment.  It is diametrically opposed to any concept of justice.  Yet, that is exactly how you and xians use the idea of jesus.  jesus H is your whipping boy.  How could you live with that?  How do you consider the whole set up just? 

And that does not get into all the inconsistencies of that idea.  If jesus H took the punishment for your sins, then why can you still go to hell?  If the punishment for your sins is eternity in hell, why is jesus now in heaven?  If jesus H really did take the punishment for your sins, then people who go to hell are not there because of their sins, but because they did not accept jesus.  Do you really think infinite torture is a fair punishment for anything (either sins or not accepting jesus)?  See?  It's a can of worms.  I understand why xians don't want to think about it too hard.


The question was asked: "So tell me then.....where exactly is the "temptation" in Gen 22:1?  If Yahweh knew it was all a fix, and Abraham knew it was all a fix....who exactly got tempted?  And tempted how?"  God tests (tempts) all believers, not you guys, believers.  1 Corinth 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."  God provided a way out for both Abraham and Issac.

There is no test if all parties involved knew the outcome at the beginning.  There is no test if yhwh demanded the sacrifice with a wink and a nod and Abe agreed with a wink and a nod.  Then the whole thing is just a pageant or a scripted play and the only purpose it served was to scare the shit out of Isaac.

And that does not even get into the evidence for the original story ending in Isaac's slaughter.



You guys are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac yet will probably go ballistic against pro-lifers over your support for abortion.

Don't even bring it up.  It is off topic and will completely derail the discussion.

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Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #479 on: December 13, 2011, 10:21:54 AM »
First I want to start with Historicity and Angfauglir and ask them why they are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac?  Think about it! Issac carried the wood (like Jesus carried the cross).

Really?

Quote
And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

--Matthew 27:32

Abraham was an old man when he had Issac so when Issac was hauling the wood up the mountain for the burnt offering, he could have bolted at any time.

First of all, Abraham is not necessarily being portrayed here as a feeble old man.  After Sarah dies, he marries a concubine and spawns several more kids.  IOW, he is still healthy enough to be virile.  Second, he's walking up a mountain.  If you read Abraham's story as a whole, he's portrayed leading his servants in battle against Mesopotamian armies led by kings, and winning.  He's a nomad who spends his whole life herding, branding, slaughtering, and butchering livestock and traveling considerable distances on foot.  So, it's quite plausible within the context of the story that he'd have little difficulty overpowering a scrawny kid.  Third, Isaac is weighted down with enough wood to incinerate his corpse.  It is entirely possible that the wood could have been tied on, like an improvised backpack.  Fourth, Abraham is armed with a knife--Isaac isn't.  Fifth, even if Abraham had brainwashed Isaac into mindless obedience of the voices in his (Abraham's) head, so that he'd accept his fate without struggle, that doesn't make it OK to murder him.

You guys are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac yet will probably go ballistic against pro-lifers over your support for abortion.

I'm not really sure where you're trying to go with this, but: An embryo is not equivalent to an adolescent child. 

Screwtape asked me if I wanted someone else to be punished for my bad deeds, or am I willing to take responsibility for myself?  Inferring I (jtp) choose to be irresponsible and have someone else take it. "  That's what the Bible says, not me, I'll take it.  I don't want to be judged by God.  I'll receive the judgment God gave Jesus.

So, at the moment of your death, you'll suddenly realize you've been abandoned, and cry out, "My god, my god, why have you forsaken me?" :) 

The fact that you don't want to be judged by God suggests that you know you would not pass such a judgment.  I suspect you have not considered the possibility that "you are saved if you believe in Jesus" is a test to see what believers will take the easy way out instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes.

Hehe, nice.  I'd take this a step further.  Consider for a moment what you have to do to become a Christian: you must not merely seek to take an easy way out and avoid responsibility; you have to be willing, even eager, to profit from the brutal torture and murder of an innocent person.  And not just any old innocent person either, but the one you regard as the absolute moral paragon of the entire human race.  You must be willing to sacrifice ultimate good for the benefit of ultimate evil (sinful ol' you), for your own selfish gain (Die, Jesus, diiiiie!  Sweet!  Now I get to go to Heaven!  BWAHAHAHAHAAA!), and do so in a particularly savage way.  Then, you celebrate by engaging in a bacchanalia of ceremonial blood-drinking and flesh-eating, and "washing yourself in his blood."  A greater inversion of morality and justice is difficult to imagine.

So, either it's a test to see if you're willing to abandon every moral principle for your own gain (and thus, to weed out the evil people who'd take the bait), or Yahweh is a malevolent Dark Lord recruiting for his Legions of Doom.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #480 on: December 13, 2011, 10:24:02 AM »
And that does not even get into the evidence for the original story ending in Isaac's slaughter.

Citation?  I'd like to learn more about this.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #481 on: December 13, 2011, 10:28:51 AM »
So, either it's a test to see if you're willing to abandon every moral principle for your own gain (and thus, to weed out the evil people who'd take the bait), or Yahweh is a malevolent Dark Lord recruiting for his Legions of Doom.

Matt Dillahunty commented on the Abraham/Isaac story on a podcast a couple of months or so ago.  His whole take on it was this: if a supernatural being of some kind were to come down and order Abraham to sacrifice his son, the proper response from Abraham would have been, "I don't know who you are, but whoever you are, you cannot possibly be the deity I worship because he is a loving being who would never command me to do something so horrible.  Therefore, I will not obey you."
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Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #482 on: December 13, 2011, 10:44:42 AM »
Matt Dillahunty commented on the Abraham/Isaac story on a podcast a couple of months or so ago.  His whole take on it was this: if a supernatural being of some kind were to come down and order Abraham to sacrifice his son, the proper response from Abraham would have been, "I don't know who you are, but whoever you are, you cannot possibly be the deity I worship because he is a loving being who would never command me to do something so horrible.  Therefore, I will not obey you."

did Abraham find his god a loving being? 
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #483 on: December 13, 2011, 10:56:54 AM »
Matt Dillahunty commented on the Abraham/Isaac story on a podcast a couple of months or so ago.  His whole take on it was this: if a supernatural being of some kind were to come down and order Abraham to sacrifice his son, the proper response from Abraham would have been, "I don't know who you are, but whoever you are, you cannot possibly be the deity I worship because he is a loving being who would never command me to do something so horrible.  Therefore, I will not obey you."

did Abraham find his god a loving being?

That occurred to me as well.  I'm not familiar enough with the source material to comment, though.  (If I were Abraham, I certainly wouldn't.)
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Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #484 on: December 13, 2011, 11:09:21 AM »
And that does not even get into the evidence for the original story ending in Isaac's slaughter.

Citation?  I'd like to learn more about this.

Doctor X, probably a real, live biblical scholar, did a whole thing on it over at freethought forum.  While I search around to find the right thread (it appears to be missing, which would really be a shame)[1], let me give you what I can off the top 'o me noggin.

1. As any xian will tell you, there were tribes in canaan who practiced child sacrifice.  As any legit historian will tell you, judaism grew out of canaan.  It was not a foreign invasion.  So at some point, the people who we now call "jews" evolved from a people who sacrificed children.  It was at one point part of the religion and it is likely the story of Abe came from that tradition.  When they evolved and stopped killing their own babies, the story was redacted.

2. the OT talks about "redeeming all first born", including livestock and humans.  The first time I read that, I thought "what the flip does it mean to redeem"?  I never got a good answer.  Since they slaughtered the firstborn livestock, it is not unreasonable to think they also slaughtered the firtborn humans too.

3. From the text of the story.  This is the part that is foggier for me and X did a marvelous job of laying it out.  In the story, Abe goes home alone.  The verb used is singular.  and if you buy into the Documentary Hypothesis, the chunks that were added save isaac.  You can take them out and the story still makes sense:

Gen 22:9-19
Quote
9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, “Abraham! Abraham!”

   “Here I am,” he replied.

 12 “Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

 13 Abraham looked up and there in a thicket he saw a ram[a] caught by its horns. He went over and took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering instead of his son. 14 So Abraham called that place The LORD Will Provide. And to this day it is said, “On the mountain of the LORD it will be provided.”
 

15 The angel of the LORD called to Abraham from heaven a second time

16 and said, “I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, [ed - it only makes sense if Abe actually intended to kill Isaac.  So even if he was saved, it could not have been the case that he had faith an alternative would be provided.  He assumed he would have to kill Isaac and he was okay with it.]

17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,

18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

 19 Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba.

In 22:19, where is Isaac?  Burnt.   This is also why Isaac plays such a small role of all the patriarchs. 

The covenant between Abe and yhwh was based on human sacrifice.  Isaac was the down payment, foreskins were the ongoing tribute, plus cattle.

 1. he may have deleted it out of spite.  He did that here.  After his ban here, I posted in his thread over at ff to ask him a question.  He ignored me.  So, it would not surprise me if he deleted it just to be a prick.  Which is too bad, because it was an epic thread that had every book about the bible you would want to read, plus his commentary
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Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #485 on: December 13, 2011, 11:11:02 AM »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #486 on: December 13, 2011, 11:12:55 AM »
That occurred to me as well.  I'm not familiar enough with the source material to comment, though.  (If I were Abraham, I certainly wouldn't.)

from reading Genesis, all I see is Abraham being a greedy, sycophantic xenophobe who consistently lies and gets others in trouble (thus demonstrates his lack of faith again and again). And of course, this god being an idiot for needing to test him.  No love of any recognizable kind found, only threat, punishment/reward.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #487 on: December 13, 2011, 11:53:51 AM »
The fact that you don't want to be judged by God suggests that you know you would not pass such a judgment.  I suspect you have not considered the possibility that "you are saved if you believe in Jesus" is a test to see what believers will take the easy way out instead of taking responsibility for their own mistakes.

Hehe, nice.  I'd take this a step further.  Consider for a moment what you have to do to become a Christian: you must not merely seek to take an easy way out and avoid responsibility; you have to be willing, even eager, to profit from the brutal torture and murder of an innocent person.  And not just any old innocent person either, but the one you regard as the absolute moral paragon of the entire human race.  You must be willing to sacrifice ultimate good for the benefit of ultimate evil (sinful ol' you), for your own selfish gain (Die, Jesus, diiiiie!  Sweet!  Now I get to go to Heaven!  BWAHAHAHAHAAA!), and do so in a particularly savage way.  Then, you celebrate by engaging in a bacchanalia of ceremonial blood-drinking and flesh-eating, and "washing yourself in his blood."  A greater inversion of morality and justice is difficult to imagine.

So, either it's a test to see if you're willing to abandon every moral principle for your own gain (and thus, to weed out the evil people who'd take the bait), or Yahweh is a malevolent Dark Lord recruiting for his Legions of Doom.
As you may have seen from his response to me, he still hasn't thought this through.  Basically, he said, "no, it's you who's being tested", asked me if I was willing to take responsibility for my mistakes.  Then he said he wouldn't be willing to, and that it nonetheless wasn't an easy way out and quoted some scripture at me, the point of which was to show that Jesus didn't say this was the easy way.  Never mind the fact that he also didn't say that it was the hard way.

I'm reminded of a short story I read.  Basically, benevolent aliens came to Earth, offered us membership in their Galactic Federation, and provided various medicines to eliminate disease and reverse the aging process.  All without expecting anything in return.  As you may have guessed, most people went for it.  As a result, everyone who took the medicines ended up dying; it was a method of conquest without having to fight for it.

Sure makes you wonder, doesn't it?  A religion that offers eternal life and health on a platter at some unspecified future point in time, provided people believe in the benevolence of the deity offering it and work to convert others so that they believe in the benevolence of this deity as well.

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #488 on: December 13, 2011, 12:22:47 PM »
2. the OT talks about "redeeming all first born", including livestock and humans.  The first time I read that, I thought "what the flip does it mean to redeem"?  I never got a good answer.  Since they slaughtered the firstborn livestock, it is not unreasonable to think they also slaughtered the firtborn humans too.

let me adjust that a bit. 

All the redeeming going on was kind of like rescuing the firstborns from yhwh or in some cases, from the Aaronite priests.  They were redeemed in various ways, sometimes by killing another animal, like a lamb, or by paying for them.  This redemption is in leiu of killing them:
Quote from: exodus 13:13
Redeem with a lamb every firstborn donkey, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem every firstborn among your sons. 

The idea is that because yhwh killed all the firstborn in egypt except the hebrews, those firstborn belong to him and if the hebrews want to keep them, they have to pay for them.

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #489 on: December 13, 2011, 03:35:43 PM »
Jaime:
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There is exactly one Christian I know of who regularly visits here who actually acts like a Christian, OldChurchGuy.  You would do well to go review his posts and see how his behavior differs from yours.
A little ungenerous, Jaime, if you don't mind me saying so. Of our current batch of visitors, Kevinagain, Rory and Riley are all discussing stuff with a good attitude. Let's not tar every theist with the same brush.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #490 on: December 13, 2011, 03:39:40 PM »
Jaime:
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There is exactly one Christian I know of who regularly visits here who actually acts like a Christian, OldChurchGuy.  You would do well to go review his posts and see how his behavior differs from yours.
A little ungenerous, Jaime, if you don't mind me saying so. Of our current batch of visitors, Kevinagain, Rory and Riley are all discussing stuff with a good attitude. Let's not tar every theist with the same brush.
Thus why I said I knew of exactly one.  Though I should have remembered riley.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #491 on: December 13, 2011, 03:47:23 PM »
I disagree with #3

Even when it's said that faith comes from God; it's in the context of divinely revealed scripture, the very word "divine revelation" implies a communication between God and man. Faith in this context is closer to the definition of "trust". No, blind, absolutely dogmatic faith. There can't be if God has, in some sense, revealed him self or his will.

the other 4 are quite correct.
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Offline Gill

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #492 on: December 13, 2011, 03:54:43 PM »
You are wasting your time if you are truly looking for an answer for evidence of God.
because you will NEVER get it.

I see evidence all around me.   It all depends on where you look.   If one limits their idea of reality only to the physical, then of course they will never find any evidence of God.  The idea of God is something which transcends anything physical, or anything which man knows, or thinks he knows.