Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 28176 times)

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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #435 on: December 08, 2011, 07:25:04 PM »
Wow, does everyone here have the historical account of Abraham screwed up!!!!!  Even Christians.  Abraham went up the mountain to sacrifice his son believing God would provide a scapegoat, and God did!  A model for Jesus.  God didn't tell him to kill anyone.  Ya'll gotta read the Bible man!!!  God is not gonna tell anyone to kill their kids, been there done that with His own Son. 

Since I have read some of the Bible, I am way ahead of you. Pretending for the sake of discussion that the Bible is historical I will proceed.  For instance I know that the scapegoat was a ceremony introduced by Moses for the forgiveness of sin.  It didn't exist by the time of Abraham.

Here is what you regard as the historical record:
Quote
Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, "Behold, here I am."

And he said, "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him look up the Hebrew word for "offer", it's different from sacrifice there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, "Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you."

And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, "My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

And Abraham said, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering:
so they went both of them together." And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son Issac was thus offered. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, "Abraham, Abraham"

And he said, "Here am I."   Ready to strike and he heard an angel?

And he said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." 

And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. What the angel said God would do! hmmmmm.  What was Abraham thinking?  Was he believing the promise and what God said or was he wondering if He would heal an amputee?
   ...
And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, and said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son

While the narrator says that God was just fooling around and while Abraham lied to Isaac until he got him tied up, there is no indication that Abraham thought it was a joke.  Also, at this point in the Bible God is not telepathic nor precognitive so he had to test Abraham to see if he would really kill on command.

I, also, have read the Bible all the way through and then some.  But, I consider myself ahead of you because I believe it.  It depends on what you emphasize (bold) and what the verses say and what the rest of the Bible says: so "search out the treasure of truth"...Reread your above scripture quote please, italics mine.  And read the chapters leading up to this event.  To offer something is much different than kill or sacrifice (check the Hebrew words).  I will sum it up for you using Hebrews 11:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise"

Abraham was promised his heirs would inherit the promise.  Sara at an old age laughed when the angel told her she would conceive.  Abraham offers Issac not knowing what the future holds.  Christians today do not know what the future holds.  So if an idiot says the world is ending (except Al Gore of course) don't believe him.

Today Christians dedicate (offer) their children to God to be used by Him.  With a largely different spiritual understanding, because of Jesus, than what was going on back in Abraham's day.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #436 on: December 08, 2011, 07:59:38 PM »
I'll help you guys out.  The Hebrew words in Genesis 22:2 containing the word "offer" in Hebraic have a meaning of:

1) to go up, ascend, climb

a) (Qal)

1) to go up, ascend

2) to meet, visit, follow, depart, withdraw, retreat

3) to go up, come up (of animals)

4) to spring up, grow, shoot forth (of vegetation)

5) to go up, go up over, rise (of natural phenomenon)

6) to come up (before God)

7) to go up, go up over, extend (of boundary)

8) to excel, be superior to

b) (Niphal)

1) to be taken up, be brought up, be taken away

2) to take oneself away

3) to be exalted

c) (Hiphil)

1) to bring up, cause to ascend or climb, cause to go up

2) to bring up, bring against, take away

3) to bring up, draw up, train

4) to cause to ascend

5) to rouse, stir up (mentally)

6) to offer, bring up (of gifts)

7) to exalt

8) to cause to ascend, offer

d) (Hophal)

1) to be carried away, be led up

2) to be taken up into, be inserted in

3) to be offered

e) (Hithpael) to lift oneself

Kill?  Sacrifice?  Could Abraham thought Issac was the one, Jesus?

You got me on "Scapegoat", the Bible is a big book.  I should have said burnt offering.  I get so into replies on this site I sometimes blurt.  Somebody got me on spelling the other day too.  Dang.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #437 on: December 08, 2011, 08:04:26 PM »
Another clue for all.

All throughout the OT and NT and today.  The coming of the Kingdom of God is just around the corner.

Hahahahahahahahahaha.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline rev45

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #438 on: December 08, 2011, 08:33:01 PM »
Another clue for all.

All throughout the OT and NT and today.  The coming of the Kingdom of God is just around the corner.
Can you do like Harold Camping and give an exact date?  ;)
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #439 on: December 08, 2011, 09:39:16 PM »
You just contradicted yourself. You use the Bible as objective evidence, and then you say that proof will not come from evidence. How do you know that Jesus told you to spread the gospel?

Thanks for admitting that God will never show himself in any way, or heal amputees.
"My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me"(John 10:27)
Only chosen ones (God's children) will know.

You don't have to believe me, but ask other believers, they will say the same thing.
His sheep will know Him and follow Him. ;)
Because we were chosen, and created that way.

So answer this question:  If you weren't raised a Christian, would you have the same faith?  Would you just be one of the sheep that heard the call of Christianity?  If you were born in Afghanistan to an Islamic family, would you have realized that you are a Christian and converted?

I'll listen to your answer, but the answer is no!  You wouldn't.  Neither would most theists!  You were raised a certain way, and brainwashed to believe in the magic of a book.  If I raised my kids to believe in The Illiad as a religious book, my kids would believe in Achilles in a very similar vain as Joshua of the OT. 

'God' didn't choose you to be a Christian, your parent's did.

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #440 on: December 08, 2011, 10:38:18 PM »
But, I consider myself ahead of you because I believe it. 

Then you are going to hell, shitdick.  Pride is a mortal sin.

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1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you

James 4:6 ESV
God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted


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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #441 on: December 08, 2011, 10:47:47 PM »
You just contradicted yourself. You use the Bible as objective evidence, and then you say that proof will not come from evidence. How do you know that Jesus told you to spread the gospel?

Thanks for admitting that God will never show himself in any way, or heal amputees.
"My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me"(John 10:27)
Only chosen ones (God's children) will know.

You don't have to believe me, but ask other believers, they will say the same thing.
His sheep will know Him and follow Him. ;)
Because we were chosen, and created that way.

So answer this question:  If you weren't raised a Christian, would you have the same faith?  Would you just be one of the sheep that heard the call of Christianity?  If you were born in Afghanistan to an Islamic family, would you have realized that you are a Christian and converted?

I'll listen to your answer, but the answer is no!  You wouldn't.  Neither would most theists!  You were raised a certain way, and brainwashed to believe in the magic of a book.  If I raised my kids to believe in The Illiad as a religious book, my kids would believe in Achilles in a very similar vain as Joshua of the OT. 

'God' didn't choose you to be a Christian, your parent's did.

I wasn't raised a Christian!  I went to the public school system that told me my grandma and grandpa were premordial gooz.  I was born again at 28, thank God!!!  And found out my Grandma and Grandpa were created in the image of God! Hallelujah!

How dare you presume I was brainwashed!  I got your teaching for 28 years!  How dare you!!!
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #442 on: December 08, 2011, 10:57:06 PM »
But, I consider myself ahead of you because I believe it. 

Then you are going to hell, shitdick.  Pride is a mortal sin.

Quote
1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you

James 4:6 ESV
God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Matthew 23:12
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted

Come on.  Historicity started it by saying he happened to read the bible making him the expert - blah, blah, blah.....
I don't have a clue who is going to heaven or hell. How does believing the Bible make one prideful?  On this site I'm an idiot!!!  Where is there pride in that???   Who's full of pride here?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Astreja

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #443 on: December 09, 2011, 01:49:34 AM »
I don't have a clue who is going to heaven or hell.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that no one's going to either place as I've yet to see any credible evidence for heaven or hell.  I'm also somewhat puzzled as to what part of the self is supposed to end up there, as one's self-awareness tends to vanish completely every night when in non-dreaming sleep.  If there were such a thing as an eternal soul, where *does* it go when we're asleep but not dreaming?

Furthermore, if our sense of who we are does disappear upon the death of the brain, and a god subsequently goes to the trouble of reconstructing that self for the purposes of "judging" us, what possible excuse could it have for recreating the "sinful" entities at all?  Why bring something back to sentience just so you can sentence it to eternal torment?  Does.  Not.  Compute.

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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #444 on: December 09, 2011, 02:03:56 AM »
I don't have a clue who is going to heaven or hell.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that no one's going to either place as I've yet to see any credible evidence for heaven or hell.

OK. you're convinced.

  I'm also somewhat puzzled as to what part of the self is supposed to end up there, as one's self-awareness tends to vanish completely every night when in non-dreaming sleep.  If there were such a thing as an eternal soul, where *does* it go when we're asleep but not dreaming?

Soooooo,  who are you when your sleeping?  Your still in a body that needs rest.  My other posts talk about this.  Created in the Image of God.  Three in one...etc. 

Furthermore, if our sense of who we are does disappear upon the death of the brain, does it?, who proved/confirmed that?and a god subsequently goes to the trouble of reconstructing that self for the purposes of "judging" us, what possible excuse could it have for recreating the "sinful" entities at all?  Why bring something back to sentience just so you can sentence it to eternal torment?  Does.  Not.  Compute. 

God judged Jesus and found Him righteous, do you want to enter in under His blood or by your own good life?  I choose His blood, what do you choose?  Your good deeds, or your life?  You better rethink this.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Astreja

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #445 on: December 09, 2011, 02:31:24 AM »
Soooooo,  who are you when your sleeping?  Your still in a body that needs rest.

I am of the opinion that the "self" is a convenient illusion caused by neurological activity, and that there is no permanent self.  We simply don't need it when our bodies are resting.

Quote
My other posts talk about this.  Created in the Image of God.  Three in one...etc.

Whereas I think gods are created in the image of humans.

Quote
God judged Jesus and found Him righteous...

Unsupported assertion.  Until otherwise demonstrated, this is just a story in an ancient book.  I do think it interesting, though, that your alleged god's definition of "righteous" apparently includes mass piggycide; an attack on an innocent fig tree that was just kicking back in the non-fruitbearing season; verbal abuse of a woman from out of town; and Accessory Before the Fact to Grand Theft Ass and Colt.  Seriously, this "Jesus" character is not exactly what I'd call a good role model.

Quote
...do you want to enter in under His blood or by your own good life?  I choose His blood, what do you choose?  Your good deeds, or your life?  You better rethink this.

False dichotomies up the yin-yang here!
  • I don't want to "enter in" at all.  I am not interested in going to heaven and being stuck there for eternity.
  • I reject the alleged "salvation" of Christianity, as I consider it to be a cure that's worse than the disease.  Human sacrifice is barbaric and primitive.  Allowing someone else to die in your place is grossly immoral and dishonourable.  To smear yourself with the fictional "blood" of a mythical sometimes-dead man is to take the real mark of the beast, by shutting down your own common sense, moral integrity and human dignity.
  • My good deeds may or may not survive My death.  My self probably will not survive.  I'm fine with that.  I'm not attached to My self and I'm not overly concerned about death, because eventually every molecule in My body will wander off into new adventures in other forms of organic and inorganic matter.  I already possess eternal life in abundance.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #446 on: December 09, 2011, 02:55:30 AM »
Soooooo,  who are you when your sleeping?  Your still in a body that needs rest.

I am of the opinion that the "self" is a convenient illusion caused by neurological activity, and that there is no permanent self.  We simply don't need it when our bodies are resting.

I am of the opinion that we are created in the image of God, according to Him of course.  Anybody can disagree with Him I guess.  We won't reconcile there.

Quote
My other posts talk about this.  Created in the Image of God.  Three in one...etc.

Whereas I think gods are created in the image of humans.

True, if you don't agree with the Bible, God is whatever you what Him to be.  You create Him.  Not a good idea but that's the way it is.

Quote
God judged Jesus and found Him righteous...

Unsupported assertion. 

No, Bible.

Quote
...do you want to enter in under His blood or by your own good life?  I choose His blood, what do you choose?  Your good deeds, or your life?  You better rethink this.

False dichotomies up the yin-yang here!
  • I don't want to "enter in" at all.  I am not interested in going to heaven and being stuck there for eternity.

Your choice, you can get it up the yang if you want.  Or maybe the ying.

  • I reject the alleged "salvation" of Christianity, as I consider it to be a cure that's worse than the disease. 

    Ahhh...What's the disease?

    Human sacrifice is barbaric and primitive, because all humans are guilty, God sacrificed someone who was completely innocent for barbarians.  Kinda backwards huh?

    My molecules will go the way yours will, dust to dust ya know.

    Read the Bible or you'll never get it.  When you start reading, ask out loud for God to reveal Himself to you.  Start in John Chapter 3.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #447 on: December 09, 2011, 04:57:01 AM »

I am of the opinion that we are created in the image of God,

Gosh. Even though you have no idea what that means, you still have that opinion.

Quote
True, if you don't agree with the Bible, God is whatever you what Him to be.  You create Him.  Not a good idea but that's the way it is.

No irony, here. Nothing to laugh at; move along.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 04:59:24 AM by Add Homonym »
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #448 on: December 09, 2011, 04:58:23 AM »
Unsupported assertion.
[1]

No, Bible.
 1. Fixed your quotage for ya.

Sorry, but when I saw this, I did, in fact, Laugh Out Loud.  This ought to be a meme.  Whenever one makes an unsubstantiated assertion and gets called on it, just go "No, Bible" or "No, Upanishads" or "No, Egyptian Book of the Dead" or "No, Warren Commission Report."

I know this is going to be hard for you to wrap your head around, but it's an unsupported assertion that's in the Bible.  The Bible is full of unsupported assertions.  It has more of those than internal contradictions, and that's really saying something.

The Bible did not descend from the clouds with a soundtrack of choirs of angels.  The books within it were written by men, selected out of a much larger number of texts by men, copied, re-copied, and re-re-copied by men, translated, re-translated, and re-re-translated by men, and presently interpreted from the pulpit for people like you...by men  There are thousands of ordinary human men between you and any supposed divine utterance any ancient "prophet" or "apostle" may have heard.  First you have to take the word of some guy claiming to be a "prophet" or "apostle," then you have to trust all of the thousands of men involved in passing his claims of divine inspiration down to you.  And since you're very likely to be reading your "Bible" in English rather than the original languages, you've got to place absolute, unquestioning faith in the men (and maybe a few women) who crafted your translation for you.

That's a whole lot of faith to place in human beings.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #449 on: December 09, 2011, 06:22:33 AM »
Wow, does everyone here have the historical account of Abraham screwed up!!!!!  Even Christians.  Abraham went up the mountain to sacrifice his son believing God would provide a scapegoat, and God did!  A model for Jesus.  God didn't tell him to kill anyone.  Ya'll gotta read the Bible man!!!  God is not gonna tell anyone to kill their kids, been there done that with His own Son. 

I've read your italicised version.  So what is the point of the story?  If Abraham was fully confident all along that Yahweh was going to do something, then what you are saying is that had the angel been slightly late, Genesis would in fact have read like this....

22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
22:11 And Abraham waited with his knife on his son's breast.
22:12 And Abraham waited and waited.  And Isaac waited and waited.
22:13 And several hours later, Abraham laid down the knife, and he and Isaac went home for supper...

because in your version, Abraham was NOT going to kill his son.  Not ever.  Never even an option.  Fair enough.

So tell me then.....where exactly is the "temptation" in Gen 22:1?  If Yahweh knew it was all a fix, and Abraham knew it was all a fix....who exactly got tempted?  And tempted how?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #450 on: December 09, 2011, 07:25:24 AM »
I am of the opinion that the "self" is a convenient illusion caused by neurological activity, and that there is no permanent self.  We simply don't need it when our bodies are resting.
The Greek philosopher Heraclitus (Herakleitos) despaired of the problem of identification and said, "No man can step into the same river twice."[1]  The reason being that a river changes all the time so it's not the same river.

Either someone suggested it or I thought of it myself but it's also true that because it's not the same man.  The second time it's a man who remembers the experience of stepping into that river.
 1. Often misidentified as a non-Western zen type saying. Eg, "The Colors of the Wind" in Disney's Pocahontas.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #451 on: December 09, 2011, 09:25:22 AM »
..........well life is nothing if not immersive.

A question.  Do we know of any life that doesn't exhibit some sensitivity to external stimuli?
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #452 on: December 09, 2011, 09:41:20 AM »
I wasn't raised a Christian!  I went to the public school system that told me my grandma and grandpa were premordial gooz.  I was born again at 28, thank God!!!  And found out my Grandma and Grandpa were created in the image of God! Hallelujah!

How dare you presume I was brainwashed!  I got your teaching for 28 years!  How dare you!!!
so that's why you believe, since it makes you feel better about yourself, that you can claim you are in the image of a god?  How sad, and how pathetically arrogant and greedy. 

It will be quite sad when jtp is dying and his god hasn’t returned yet to come at the beck and call of his most precious snowflake. &) 

It’s quite amusing when someone says I’m better than you since I believe in something that has nothing to support it, and who is such a pathetic hypocrite to use the science that he is so afraid of showing his god isn’t real.  he’s so sure tht he and he alone has the only “right” way to interpret the bible and just can’t do anything else that a supposed True Christian could do per that bible he claims is so very truthful. 

If there is a supposed afterlife, why no evidence? Why only stories that are utterly laughable and easily shown to be garbage?  Why no one raising from the dead without the help of modern medicine, oh how about 3 days, and coming back and telling stories about what they saw plus some evidence of this, like oh, having seen something they couldn’t’ have seen whilst in spirit form? or how about a nice rift where we can see righ into such a place?  But again, since god can’t seem to even give his followers the powers promised, why expect this either?

It’s rather amusing that jtp said that god judged JC.  Really, he had to do that to himself and didn’t’ already know that he, god in the form of man, was righteous?  Again, we see Christians making an idiot god to explain their manufactured “trinity”.  They can’t remember from one story to the next what this god is supposed to be able to do.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #453 on: December 09, 2011, 12:43:35 PM »
Why cant God be real without me believing in him?  :o
I'm Agnostic.

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #454 on: December 09, 2011, 12:47:43 PM »
How does believing the Bible make one prideful? 

But, I consider myself ahead of you because I believe it. 

Pride, mofo.  Pride.


God judged Jesus and found Him righteous, do you want to enter in under His blood or by your own good life?  I choose His blood, what do you choose?  Your good deeds, or your life?  You better rethink this.

allow me to paraphrase:

"Do you want someone else to be punished for your bad deeds, or are you willing to take responsibility for yourself?  Personally, I (jtp) choose to be irresponsible and have someone else take it. "

I agree that someone needs to rethink this.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 09:33:32 PM by screwtape »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #455 on: December 10, 2011, 12:28:39 AM »
Read the Bible or you'll never get it.

JTP, I read the Bible nearly 50 years ago and I think I actually did "get it."  I understood almost immediately that it was a storybook, not a history book, and that "hell" was a mythological construct that was useful in social control.

Quote
When you start reading, ask out loud for God to reveal Himself to you.  Start in John Chapter 3.

Now why would I want to do such a silly thing as that?  Surely if your god actually existed it could knock Me on My ass just as it supposedly knocked Saul off his high horsie.  If I do it your way, there's no assurance that any "answer" is actually coming from your particular god.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #456 on: December 12, 2011, 07:28:48 PM »
I will be paraphrasing what I think your responses are. 

First I want to start with Historicity and Angfauglir and ask them why they are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac?  Think about it! Issac carried the wood (like Jesus carried the cross).  Abraham was an old man when he had Issac so when Issac was hauling the wood up the mountain for the burnt offering, he could have bolted at any time.  He had to be a young man.  He could have overpowered Abraham and burned him up.  Issac did get curious and ask "where is the offering"? (Jesus prayed for the cup to pass [talk about an unanswered prayer!!])   Issac had to be complicit!!  Both he and Jesus were reluctant (human maybe).

The question was asked: "So tell me then.....where exactly is the "temptation" in Gen 22:1?  If Yahweh knew it was all a fix, and Abraham knew it was all a fix....who exactly got tempted?  And tempted how?"  God tests (tempts) all believers, not you guys, believers.  1 Corinth 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it."  God provided a way out for both Abraham and Issac.

You guys are so hung up on God asking Abraham to offer up Issac yet will probably go ballistic against pro-lifers over your support for abortion.

Screwtape asked me if I wanted someone else to be punished for my bad deeds, or am I willing to take responsibility for myself?  Inferring I (jtp) choose to be irresponsible and have someone else take it. "  That's what the Bible says, not me, I'll take it.  I don't want to be judged by God.  I'll receive the judgment God gave Jesus. 

I know plenty of Christians who are irresponsible, don't let the hypocrites stand between you and God.  The Bible says you will know Christians by their fruit - Gal 5:22-23 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."  That's what Christians are supposed to exhibit.

Velkyn (kcrady, too), Jesus sacrifice and God's judgment of Him does sound crazy to the rational mind.  How did 40 Biblical Authors in a span of 1500 years make this all up?  Without any contradictions or mistakes?  Was Jesus that smart He could nail 130+ prophesies without a hitch?  In my mind I don't get it, it's a heart issue.  You must be born again!

Velkyn says that I'll be disappointed on my death bed because Jesus didn't return.  I don't anticipate His return in my lifetime, so, I'll die like you will Velkyn.  He is returning for a spotless bride, Christianity has a loooooong way to go.

Pride!  I was being sarcastic with Historicty!!  He claimed to be better informed or whatever because he read the Bible.  You guys always get "in-our-face" quoting people allegedly smarter than you or having read the Bible or whatever to make you point.  Pride has nothing to do with it.  Let me have some fun.

Killa:  God is real whether you or I believe in Him or not.

Believing does not make one feel better about himself.  It brings conviction and a constant reminder that we can never measure up to Jesus or God's expectations, the OT proved that.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #457 on: December 12, 2011, 07:52:59 PM »

The interesting thing about proof, is that it requires no faith.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #458 on: December 12, 2011, 08:12:15 PM »
Historicity:
Quote
The Greek philosopher Heraclitus (Herakleitos) despaired of the problem of identification and said, "No man can step into the same river twice."  The reason being that a river changes all the time so it's not the same river.

Either someone suggested it or I thought of it myself but it's also true that because it's not the same man.  The second time it's a man who remembers the experience of stepping into that river.
According to Wikiquote, your version is a variation, and you probably read another variation.

The original literal translation is:

You could not step twice into the same river; for other waters are ever flowing on to you.

Popular variants are :

You cannot step twice into the same river; for other waters are continually flowing in.
You cannot step twice into the same stream. For as you are stepping in, other waters are ever flowing on to you.
You cannot step twice into the same river.
You cannot step into the same river twice.
It is impossible to step into the same river twice.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.


Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #459 on: December 12, 2011, 08:14:06 PM »
MadBunny

Unfortunately, I go through a lot of life not thinking much about my faith.  I have a good job, I am able to buy groceries, great kids (a little prejudice there I'm sure), great wife (a little prejudice there too I'm sure), my car starts, my refrigerator runs, my furnace is working, etc, etc.

But when it comes to my soul....do you ever think about that?  Do you have a soul?  Do you have a unique identifier, say, different from your a dog or a cat?  Are you unique?  Or just some evolved animal no different than a dog, pig, or cat?  I know dogs and cats are unique but when it comes right down to it, are they?  Are you?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #460 on: December 12, 2011, 08:23:22 PM »
Historicity:
Quote
The Greek philosopher Heraclitus (Herakleitos) despaired of the problem of identification and said, "No man can step into the same river twice."  The reason being that a river changes all the time so it's not the same river.

Either someone suggested it or I thought of it myself but it's also true that because it's not the same man.  The second time it's a man who remembers the experience of stepping into that river.
According to Wikiquote, your version is a variation, and you probably read another variation.

The original literal translation is:

You could not step twice into the same river; for other waters are ever flowing on to you.

Popular variants are :

You cannot step twice into the same river; for other waters are continually flowing in.
You cannot step twice into the same stream. For as you are stepping in, other waters are ever flowing on to you.
You cannot step twice into the same river.
You cannot step into the same river twice.
It is impossible to step into the same river twice.
No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man.


This is true!!!

Similarly,  You cannot step twice into the same pile of fresh bull$hit.  There's a footprint.
You cannot step into the same pile twice.
It is impossible to step into the same pile twice.
No man ever steps in the same pile of fresh bull$hit twice, for it's not the same pile of bull$hit and he's not the same man.

This answers all the though questions!
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #461 on: December 12, 2011, 08:26:42 PM »
Oops, put an "h" in tough.  Dog gone it!  That will throw this debate off for a week.  Dang, my bad!
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #462 on: December 12, 2011, 08:32:15 PM »
Yet your bullshit remains the same, jtp56.

So the appropriate aphorism regarding talking to you would be: Same s**t, different day.  ;)

I believe Zeno the Stoic said that, but I could be wrong.



Quote
Oops, put an "h" in tough.  Dog gone it!
Why don't you just correct it?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 08:43:28 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #463 on: December 12, 2011, 08:44:44 PM »
Yet your bullshit remains the same, jtp56.

So the appropriate aphorism regarding talking to you would be: Same s**t, different day.  ;)

I believe Zeno the Stoic said that, but I could be wrong.



Quote
Oops, put an "h" in tough.  Dog gone it!
Why don't you just correct it?

I'm still learning the site, I didn't know I could do that.  Thanks!!  I will research it next time (soon I'm sure) I gaffe.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.