Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 23969 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #232 on: October 21, 2011, 08:04:44 PM »
It seems it doesn't matter what you call good or bad when the Creator of all things declares himself good.
"No one is good except God alone."(Luke 18:19)

And the Creator is claiming his right.
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"(Romans 9:21)

So God chooses.  If you don't believe it? Fine,  maybe that is why you weren't chosen.
Anyone can declare themselves and their actions to be 'good' by fiat.  The only way to really know is to observe what they actually do and come to conclusions based on that, not to blindly accept what someone says as fact without even bothering to check.  Yes, including God.  Except we can't observe God directly.  So we can't come to conclusions except on conjectural and tangential evidence.  And the problem is that when someone analyzes what's actually written in the Bible, it's hard to come to the conclusion that God is good, despite what he says.  And the fact that a creator creates something doesn't necessarily give them the right to do whatever they want with it, especially if it created living, thinking beings.  Or else parents would have the right to do whatever they wanted with their children[1], because they create that child from their own bodies.
 1. Kill it, hurt it for pleasure, things I don't care to think about...

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #233 on: October 21, 2011, 08:27:05 PM »
Hey. 12M I just went to Vancouver B.C. last week.
Cable cars, butchart garden, triple digit speed limit(Km), Whistler ski resort was the best.

What do you do for living up there?
commercial bakery,no glamour,just make bread. Visit the museum of anthropology at all?
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #234 on: October 21, 2011, 08:31:59 PM »
I asked you before - how can you call a god who damns me for HIS decisions in any way "good"?
It seems it doesn't matter what you call good or bad when the Creator of all things declares himself good.
"No one is good except God alone."(Luke 18:19)

And the Creator is claiming his right.
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"(Romans 9:21)

So God chooses.  If you don't believe it? Fine,  maybe that is why you weren't chosen.

I'd like to clarify SK's theology.

God did some impossible things:

1) He pulled off a flood, and Noah saved us all, but the flood left no scientific record, and Noah's job was clearly impossible, so it didn't happen
2) He pulled of creation in 7 days, via a process which left no evaluable evidence, so the events described did not happen
3) Jesus was part of God, even though Jesus did not historically exist and declared himself to be not good, and therefore not a part of God, he is still part of God, anyway, because somebody said so.
4) There was a talking snake, which is impossible, and so did not happen.
5) God is a Trinity, even though this is not explicitly stated anywhere in the Bible

Axiomatically, you have to believe these impossible things, that never happened and could not be, to be saved. Therefore, God rewards those who have strong enough faith to believe things that did not happen, whilst simultaneously being able to admit that they are impossible, and did not happen, which is also impossible.

Escher would have been proud, and I see some sense in this new theology, as it unifies God with the way I see Christians behaving on the internet.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #235 on: October 22, 2011, 01:44:15 AM »
In the Bible death means separated from God. 

If "God" is omnipresent, then being "separate" from him would be metaphysically and logically impossible.  Also: if a cat dies, is it somehow "separate from God?"  What about a flatworm that gets eaten?  The bacteria that get massacred by the million every time somebody wields a can of Lysol?

In Soviet Russia, death means separated from Vodka!
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #236 on: October 22, 2011, 04:53:21 AM »
I asked you before - how can you call a god who damns me for HIS decisions in any way "good"?
It seems it doesn't matter what you call good or bad when the Creator of all things declares himself good.

Stop avoiding the question, SK.  I want to know whether you think that damning someone for all eternity for something they have no control over is good.

If you say "yes", then I want you to tell me of any other similar situation where you would also call it good.  Or would you, as I suspect, call such an action monstrously evil if it was done by any other creature than your "god".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Historicity

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #237 on: October 22, 2011, 06:57:29 AM »
Escher would have been proud, and I see some sense in this new theology, as it unifies God with the way I see Christians behaving on the internet.

When someone says "Escher" I think of the artist M.C. Escher.  What do you mean?

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #238 on: October 22, 2011, 08:14:30 AM »
I dont't know.
I only know what is in the bible.

This might be a problem.  I think believing anything uncritically, without understanding is a problem.  I do not believe science books for no good reason.  That is why in school you have science labs.  They are there to verify the theory, to show you that it is true, so you don't just take someone's word for it.

What you are doing with the bible is the opposite of that.  You are forsaking evidence and understanding and just believing for no good reason.  You should reconsider that policy.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #239 on: October 22, 2011, 08:53:09 AM »
It seems it doesn't matter what you call good or bad when the Creator of all things declares himself good.
"No one is good except God alone."(Luke 18:19)

And the Creator is claiming his right.
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"(Romans 9:21)

So God chooses.  If you don't believe it? Fine,  maybe that is why you weren't chosen.
I get so frustrated when things go immediately into apologetic mode without acknowledging this part of the quandry.

It's been asked numerous times in numerous ways, but I don't believe I've ever seen anything other than the potter and clay analogy as an answer, despite the fact that it totally doesn't fit because, as has been pointed out, we are living, sentient beings, and a faulty pot being smashed because it didn't make the grade in no way equals damning a human being to eternal torture.

So. God loves us all. God desires that we all be saved, but because of original sin (which I'm not even going to go into here), we are all tainted from birth and unworthy. Is this right so far?

Now, according to you, God chooses certain individuals, to whom he gives the understanding to believe. Without his help, it's not going to happen. Yet you say, "If you don't want to believe it, fine, maybe that's why you weren't chosen". Do you not SEE the impossibility of this? If we were not chosen, we are not going to believe, yet since we don't believe, we aren't going to be chosen?? This makes totally no sense to begin with, and even less when you consider all the people who HAVE, at some point or another in their lives, honestly and sincerely prayed for faith and received nothing.

And you still want to reconcile the idea of all these people suffering for eternity at the whim of your deity with the idea of said deity being the epitome of "good".

Please, without resorting to doublespeak, explain how this is remotely possible.


Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #240 on: October 22, 2011, 04:04:46 PM »
God chooses us first, then we choose God by accepting, believing, and repenting.
One that decides to reject the gospel with his/her freewill, however it is predestined by God's sovereignty.
I already told Anflagir.  It is predestined in divine perspective of God, but for us 'we do not know our destiny because we don't know our future.
Atheists convert into Christians, Christians convert into atheists, do you think it's because God changes his mind?

No matter what we choose, in the end God will ALWAYS say "I knew you would choose that"
Because for God past, present, and future don't matter.
If it ever mattered to God, I wouldn't call him 'God'
Do you see the point? If everything is not predestined for an Omnipotent being, the God is not all powerfull, all knowing.

So in our earthly perspective, it may sounds unfair, but hey, you never know you maybe one of the chosen ones.
No one knows until one dies, except God.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #241 on: October 22, 2011, 04:15:59 PM »
So, being that you are, presumably one of the "chosen ones" who GETS all this...you are just happy as anything with the way God has set things up? It's fair in your book because, hey, you are one of the ones for whom a happily ever after was predestined, so God is all good.

I honestly don't see how you can believe in such an entity and still see it worthy of worship.

Offline Alzael

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #242 on: October 22, 2011, 04:32:29 PM »

No matter what we choose, in the end God will ALWAYS say "I knew you would choose that"
Because for God past, present, and future don't matter.
If it ever mattered to God, I wouldn't call him 'God'
Do you see the point? If everything is not predestined for an Omnipotent being, the God is not all powerfull, all knowing.


Then there's no point in this choice is there? Because god knew what we would choose in the first place, making all of this salvation business completely irrelevant. In fact it makes it even worse than irrelevant, because it means that god created us knowing full well that he would eventually condemn most of us to suffer for eternity. It makes it actively malevolent.

Do you see the point? If things are predestined, then there can be no choice. If god knows what choices we will make then they are not choices. If god knows all, then nothing can be changed. If it could be changed, then he does not know everything.

Your god, by your own twisted method of thinking, must either not be all-knowing, cannot be all-powerful (since he cannot change fate), or must be a malevolent force that either delights in/or at the very least causes suffering on a massive scale for no discernible reason.
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #243 on: October 22, 2011, 04:56:42 PM »
commercial bakery,no glamour,just make bread. Visit the museum of anthropology at all?
I work at a restaurant, I serve and help make some food.
I missed the museum, dang. :-\
maybe next time.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline ungod

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #244 on: October 22, 2011, 05:08:30 PM »

Only chosen ones (God's children) will know.

Then why are you wasting your time blowharding to the rest of us?


You don't have to believe me, but ask other believers, they will say the same thing.
His sheep will know Him and follow Him. ;)
Because we were chosen, and created that way.

Lead the sheep to the slaughterhouse?

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Offline pingnak

Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #245 on: October 22, 2011, 06:03:29 PM »
Why are believers so caught up with sheep and flocks?




Offline pingnak

Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #246 on: October 22, 2011, 06:07:39 PM »

Offline Historicity

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #247 on: October 22, 2011, 07:03:05 PM »
Why are believers so caught up with sheep and flocks?

John M. Allegro (d. 1988) was an expert in ancient Near Eastern languages including Sumerian.  Allegro was a respected translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

He noticed that many Sumerian words are Indo-European and Semitic.  Not just words from linguistic evolution but also borrowed words in successor civilizations such as Babylon and Israel.  A lot of these were ecclesiastic words.  In an example of how history repeats itself, rural Americans would often call church services the Sunday meeting and the church the meeting house.  Ekklesia is Greek.  It is a usage from very early Christianity and means meeting house.  The Pope has inherited the ancient Roman title Pontifex Maximus not that he counts Julius Caesar, who was for a time the pagan Pontifex Maximus of the Roman Republic, to be a predecessor.

Allegro eventually distorted the theories of Gordon L. Wasson about the amanita muscaria, the psychedelic mushroom of the Old World, as being the origins of Christianity.  His only solid evidence is a painting in the Catacombs of Adam & Eve eating the Forbidden Fruit and it's not an apple.  It's an amanita mushroom.  Okay, that proves that some early Christians were getting high but the considered opinion that it was a splinter heresy so tiny it never even left a name to be denounced.

Not according to Allegro.  I read most of his book, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross and was fascinated until about 3/4 way thru I said to myself, "Hey, come on!"  His theory was that Christianity was a hippie sex and drug cult using a psychedelic drug that could produce really bum trips, man.  To, like, control these bum trips you should call on the Son of God (the sacred mushroom of course) by some of His names so you'd only have a good trip. 

The cult started in India and went to Sumer and remained as an underground religion, finally surfacing as a corrupted version of Judaism.  It reached its culmination when Nero did the right thing and killed off all those hippy scum.  Then some remnants who had never been insiders picked up the remaining Gospels and completely misunderstood them and created historical Christianity.

In his last chapter (I skipped to the last page) he declared he had debunked Christianity and generously welcomed Christians to concede. 

Do I have to point out the holes in it?  Colleagues thought Allegro was indulging himself in some far out speculation.  Allegro became more and more insistent that he was right and was frustrated that Christians didn't even feel a need to denounce him.  Just bemusement.  Former friends decided he had gone out of his mind.

The basis of his theory was that since Sumerian words and phrases appear in later religions it meant they were using their doctrines.  For the sex aspect of it, he depended on the fact that the Sumerian word for sperm is "U" and a "U" often mutates to an "O" and -- hold your hats -- those 2 vowels appear in the New Testament.  He figured that Yeshu was a code word meaning smeared with semen, ignoring that it was already a common Jewish name.

Now that I've told you the silly parts I'll tell you that there are some sound parts.  Assuming Jesus was speaking Aramaic when he dictated the Lord's Prayer, translating "Our Father Who art in Heaven" from Greek to Aramaic gives:

ABBA DEBBA REQIYA

Sumerian prayers often started by addressing a God as "Oh Father, powerful ruler" which would be

ABBA TABBA RIGI

Either or both are the origin of  ABACADABRA which in the Middle Ages was regarded as a secret like the design of an atom bomb.  Some of the witch hunters published it in correspondence so the secret got out.

Another is the Mahdi who was a radical Moslem in the 19th century.  Mahdi is one of the Arab words for prophet.  It is an unmodified Sumerian word.   The word magus for magician is from Greek magos and appears in Sumerian as MAKUSH.   Both of those are cognate with the Indo European words we know in magnify, magnificent, make, mighty and maharajah.  That is the root word means big.

Another is in another book I have History Begins at Sumer: 39 Firsts in Recorded History (1988) by Samuel Noah Kramer.  I can't remember but I think it is in there that it says that 2 of the epithets Sumerian kings like to give themselves to show their kindly rule were as one king put it, "I am the Great Gardener, I am the Good Shepherd".

So the odd assumption that we would all react to the sheep metaphors were a cultural tradition with over 3000 years of background at the time that Jesus coopted them.

I am sorry.  I really should dig up the quotes from the books to document this.  Y'know, "Extraordinary claims, etc".  Please trust me on this.  I don't have the time and I don't want to buy another copy of Allegro, etc.



Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #248 on: October 22, 2011, 07:56:39 PM »
When someone says "Escher" I think of the artist M.C. Escher.  What do you mean?

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #249 on: October 22, 2011, 08:38:19 PM »
Atheists convert into Christians,

*cough*

Quote
No matter what we choose, in the end God will ALWAYS say "I knew you would choose that"

Can you quote the scriptural verse for that?

Quote
Because for God past, present, and future don't matter.

Can you quote the scriptural verse for that?

Quote
If everything is not predestined for an Omnipotent being, the God is not all powerfull, all knowing.

Now, seriously, why do you think your God is all-knowing in a meaningful sense? How could God get all this knowledge without thinking about it a bit, first, or storing it somewhere? God could think about a world where SERPENT KILLA lives in a gutter, and then think, "No, I have better plans for SERPENT KILLA"; but in thinking about the world where SERPENT KILLA lived in the gutter, God went and created a separate world as a "thought experiment". I might think of killing someone in my mind, and as far as the bible is concerned, that means I have committed the sin. However, in my feeble mind, the act is not against a real being, so I have not really killed anyone. However, if God were to think about killing someone, God obviously thinks so deeply about a problem, that he would create a real person and kill them.

I think, as I have explained before, SERPENT KILLA should go and read about Quantum Mechanics and try to understand both the Copenhagen Interpretation, and the Many World's Interpretation, and then when she has considered the implications of what they mean about reality, then she can come back here, and try to insert her stone age projections of God in the Many World's Interpretation, and see how her wording changes.

What I'm saying here, is that God can only be all-knowing in a certain subset of the universes that he creates; possibly only ONE, and the rest of the infinite universes he creates as a "thought experiment" he is not all knowing, but derives his all-knowingness from them, and applies them to the one perfect universe he is trying to create. The problem is that we cannot know if we are in the "one perfect universe", because there will also be Bibles and people believing in God in the universes that don't amount to anything.

But basically it amounts to the same thing: God creates an infinite number of souls which are damned; he does so deliberately and mechanistically. Given the way he creates his one perfect universe (where he knows everything), by sacrificing an infinite numbers of others, it could be said that God was all-not-knowing; in fact, the dumbest thing that ever lived.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #250 on: October 23, 2011, 12:22:18 AM »
God chooses us first, then we choose God by accepting, believing, and repenting.
One that decides to reject the gospel with his/her freewill, however it is predestined by God's sovereignty.
I already told Anflagir.  It is predestined in divine perspective of God, but for us 'we do not know our destiny because we don't know our future.

If your god decided before I was even born that I would NOT come to belief, then absolutely nothing that I can "choose" to do will make any difference.  Equally, if he had decided that I WOULD believe, then it would happen.

You seem to be trying to say that if god had decided I would believe, then somehow - by my not praying - I would manage to thwart his plan for me and lose my salvation.  Can you see how ridiculous that is?

Will you answer me some simple questions, SK?

If god decides by his sovreignty that a particular person will be saved: a fact predestined by god....how can that person ever NOT be saved?  In what way do they have control over the outcome?  Are you saying that because of their inaction they can change their destiny?

Similarly....if god decides by his sovreignty that a particular person will NOT be saved: a fact predestined by god....how can that person ever be saved?  In what way do they have control over the outcome?  Are you saying that aftre a certain amount of prayer god will say "hmmm...maybe they WILL be saved after all....guess I was wrong!"

In your own words...."do you think it's because God changes his mind?" 

So explain clearly please just how someone actually has any choice over their destiny?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #251 on: October 23, 2011, 05:24:01 PM »
If you think have chosen to be an 'atheist', and planning on staying in 'atheism' do you think that is your destiny?

How do you know you will stay in atheism until you die?
Wouldn't you believe in God if you see Him tomorrow morning in your house?

Ever heard of the story of Saul?  He was working for Satan, but God revealed himself to him.
So he had no choice but to believe. (That 'he' is known as apostle Paul)
How do you know something like that will NEVER happen in your life?

BTW do you know your destiny? or your future? If not, how can one ever intentionally choose over something(destiny) that one doesn't even know?

You see how weak we are?

HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline Klokinator

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #252 on: October 23, 2011, 05:25:28 PM »
That's the thing, smartass. If I DID see god speak to me from the heavens tomorrow, and he proved he was god by giving me a blast of insight so keen that there could be no denying it, I WOULD MOST LIKELY BELIEVE IN GOD.

Until that happens, I'm an atheist to the death!

Offline pingnak

Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #253 on: October 23, 2011, 05:45:11 PM »
Some people just set low standards for their gods.

Doesn't 'have to' answer prayers.  Doesn't 'have to' seem to exist.

Just has to be 'god' because some other clueless schmuck told them there's one.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #254 on: October 23, 2011, 09:00:55 PM »

Ever heard of the story of Saul?  He was working for Satan, but God revealed himself to him.
So he had no choice but to believe. (That 'he' is known as apostle Paul)


We know of this fairy tale as well. I wish it happened more in real life, that disgusting dictators became "lambs", or Christian dupes. But, no, they seem to remain dickheads until they are flushed out of their holes.

Err, so what you are basically saying, (and it's something I agree with), is that people can turn to Christ/God, when their brain happens to desperately hallucinate something that they can't really explain. Herein lies a problem: what if the "conversion experience" they had, was actually from themselves, and not God? Is that enough for God, that you did it to yourself, or does it have to be really from God? If you've just fooled yourself, then you are still not chosen, and even if you have had a real experience, then Christian theology allows for it to have been sent by Satan, which means you are now a dupe of Satan.

Before you arrived, we had a tortured man on-forum, who was convinced that he was inhabited by a demon, that talked to him. That's easy, you say, schizophrenia! We all said that, too. The demon said things to him that seemed to be revelatory, but there always seemed another way he could have got the information. Irrespective, his demon tended to be proof, to him at least, that God existed. Still not good enough, really, is it? Just because you have a [fake] proof of God, and you now believe in God, does this mean you have been chosen, or are you even less chosen, because it's a demon?

You seem sure that you have been chosen, but there are any number of ways your brain can fool you into believing that, whilst you can still not verify if you are chosen or have merely been tricked.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline EV

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #255 on: October 24, 2011, 07:10:18 AM »
Serpent Killa. I've been reading your posts with interest.
You clearly consider yourself to be a good Christian.
I have three questions for you.

1) Do you have faith in the Lord God Almighty?
2) Do you uphold the law of your Bible?
3) Would you risk danger to clarify your beliefs?

Answer me these ASAP.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #256 on: October 24, 2011, 07:36:50 AM »
If you think have chosen to be an 'atheist', and planning on staying in 'atheism' do you think that is your destiny?

No more than I believe that "doubting that my shoes fly around my  room while I am asleep and no recording devices are present" is my Destiny. It is more about "I am currently not delusional and expect to be so in the future"


How do you know you will stay in atheism until you die?



"I am currently not delusional and expect to be so in the future"


Wouldn't you believe in God if you see Him tomorrow morning in your house?

If I woke up and saw my shoes flying around my room, I would be more likely to doubt my sanity than believe in flying shoes. However, if it was cooberated by several people who had pictures, evidence, recorded shoe movements done in double blind tests....I would likely believe in flying shoes.


Ever heard of the story of Saul?  He was working for Satan, but God revealed himself to him.
So he had no choice but to believe. (That 'he' is known as apostle Paul)
How do you know something like that will NEVER happen in your life?

So do you operate under the principle the Zeus might just show up and have you do his bidding...or do you just consider the likelyhood of that so very infinitesimal to be ignorable?


BTW do you know your destiny? or your future? If not, how can one ever intentionally choose over something(destiny) that one doesn't even know?

You see how weak we are?


I see you making appeals to ignorance, which makes me see how weak your argument is.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #257 on: October 24, 2011, 08:04:28 AM »
Wouldn't you believe in God if you see Him tomorrow morning in your house?

How would that work?  How would I know I was looking at yhwh and not some guy or another minor deity or a powerful life form from another planet?  It is not like he could just show me his ID card.  And it is not like verifying some stranger who claims to know your sister. I could not just ask him a couple questions and be cool with it.  This "person" would be trying to convince me he was the supreme being and creator of the universe.  I would want to be sure he was who he said he was and not some other lesser being up to no good.

The problem with god is, there is no way for us mortals to confirm that what we are looking at is in fact, god.  God is supposedly three things - omnipotent, omniscient and eternal.  So, if I were to meet a thing[1] that claimed to be biblegod, I would need it to establish those three qualities for me to believe it is biblegod. 

But how could it prove omnipotence?  I could ask it to do all sorts of stuff that people could not do.  But omniptence means the power to do anything.  And to prove that, it would have to do everything.  I could not ask everything because I am limited by my considerable, but finite imagination and more importantly, by time.  So, this being would just need to be very powerful to fool me.  I would only need to be almost omnipotent[2] and I would not know the difference.  OR it would only need to have the power to manipulate my brain.  All it would have to do would be to affect my mind to make me believe it was doing amazing things without actually having to do them.  So proving omnipotence would be a bust.

The same goes for omniscience.  I could ask it questions, but that test would be limited by my own knowledge.  I could not verify answers it gave me about, say, far away galaxies, or what it is like in the center of a star.  A being would only need to be a little smarter than me, know slightly more than me, to appear omniscient.

And as for eternal, again, there would be no way for me to establish that.

So for a being to appear to me and convince me it is god, it only needs to be a little smarter than me[3] and have some good special effects.  That sets a pretty low bar.  That means any manner of powerful creature could fool me.  It means, the Devil could get me to do unspeakable evil pretty easily just by telling me "it's cool man.  I'm god.  I command you." 

Thus, if I met someone claiming to be biblegod, the smartest, safest thing to do, would be to not believe him and walk away.


 1. be it a guy, or a talking snake or a burning shrub or whatever
 2. or maybe not even that.  Maybe 10% omnipotent would be enough.  Or .0001%.  Or 1 x10^-gogolplex%
 3. no easy task, but still a far cry from omniscient
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #258 on: October 24, 2011, 08:15:16 AM »
Wouldn't you believe in God if you see Him tomorrow morning in your house?

How would that work?  How would I know I was looking at yhwh and not some guy or another minor deity or a powerful life form from another planet?  It is not like he could just show me his ID card.  And it is not like verifying some stranger who claims to know your sister. I could not just ask him a couple questions and be cool with it.  This "person" would be trying to convince me he was the supreme being and creator of the universe.  I would want to be sure he was who he said he was and not some other lesser being up to no good.


I like the response to this I've seen awhile back:

He would be omnicient enought to know what would convince me...even though I currently don't know what would; and he would be omnipotent enough to do said convincing.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #259 on: October 24, 2011, 08:41:22 AM »

Quote
The head of household then cut the lamb's throat with a sharp bronze knife while the priest caught the lamb's blood in a large bronze bowl. The priest then made seven complete trips around the altar, sprinkling the blood from the lamb on each of the four "horns." Then he took the lamb's body and placed it on the altar and started the ritual fire. With a big fire and a small lamb, the sacrifice was over quickly. The smoke rose from the altar. If the wind blew the smoke away and dispersed it, the priest told the family that its offer was rejected, and that it should repent and come back the following year. But if the smoke drifted upward, higher and higher until it disappeared from view, the priest told the family that God had accepted the sacrifice.
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/scrip/a6.html


And...as soon as the family left, the priests had a feast of BBQ lamb... :angel:
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Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline ungod

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #260 on: October 24, 2011, 08:46:47 AM »

Wouldn't you believe in God if you see Him tomorrow morning in your house?

I thought God was already EVERYWHERE (Omnipresent)...so howcum nobody can see him?

Duh!  &)
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler