Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 20117 times)

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Offline Alzael

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #203 on: October 20, 2011, 08:47:19 PM »
Who said the bible don't support 'free will.'?


Show one part of the book where it says or implies that free will exists. Go on, please.

Then go and read all of those parts where it talks about submission to his will. Doing his every bidding. The parts where he dictates to humanity what right and wrong is. Where he tells humans what thoughts you are allowed to have. The parts where he outright overrides human will and makes them do what he wants. Where he states that humans will go to heaven or hell irregardless of any actions they take. Where he says that he decided whether you would go to heaven or hell before you were even born.

Then consider all of the many logical inconsistencies that are involved in free will existing alongside the Christian god.

There is no way to make free will even remotely compatible with the bible. Not to mention that the book itself outright says as much.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #204 on: October 20, 2011, 10:00:30 PM »
Wow, it's like an all-you-can-eat buffet of terrible arguments!  Is it Christmas already?  Where does the time go? 

Who said the bible don't support 'free will.'?

Here is what I have to say about free will vs predestination.

We have our free will to make decisions in God's sovereignty.
Past, present, and future don't matter to God.  So whatever you choose by your free will is predestined by God.

Illogical?  For God anything is possible.
Want evidence? God doesn't have to prove anything.
Irrational? By whose definition?

After all, we are talking about God not your neighbor Bill.
So get used to it.

This... this whole thing is just... I don't even know what to call this.  It's so stupid.  The very words... "So whatever you choose by your free will is predestined by God" are absolutely contradictory.  It's not free will if it's predestined.  How can you maintain this belief SK?  It is absolutely impossible. 

What is the sense of even having a conversation with you about this topic if you are going to adopt such a stupid position?  The sum total of your argument here is "We have free will.  God predestines everything.  Deal with it.  I don't care if it's completely irrational, it's what I believe.".  That's... ugh.  I just can't figure out how you people put your shoes on the correct feet every day.  Do you really not see how bad this is?  This is intellectual suicide.  You might as well get a tattoo on your forehead that says "I don't use my brain". 

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #205 on: October 20, 2011, 11:45:17 PM »
Jeff don't give he ideas about tattoo's ,she just might do it
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #206 on: October 21, 2011, 12:02:22 AM »
Wow, it's like an all-you-can-eat buffet of terrible arguments!  Is it Christmas already?  Where does the time go? 

Who said the bible don't support 'free will.'?

Here is what I have to say about free will vs predestination.

We have our free will to make decisions in God's sovereignty.
Past, present, and future don't matter to God.  So whatever you choose by your free will is predestined by God.

Illogical?  For God anything is possible.
Want evidence? God doesn't have to prove anything.
Irrational? By whose definition?

After all, we are talking about God not your neighbor Bill.
So get used to it.

This... this whole thing is just... I don't even know what to call this.  It's so stupid.  The very words... "So whatever you choose by your free will is predestined by God" are absolutely contradictory.  It's not free will if it's predestined.  How can you maintain this belief SK?  It is absolutely impossible. 

What is the sense of even having a conversation with you about this topic if you are going to adopt such a stupid position?  The sum total of your argument here is "We have free will.  God predestines everything.  Deal with it.  I don't care if it's completely irrational, it's what I believe.".  That's... ugh.  I just can't figure out how you people put your shoes on the correct feet every day.  Do you really not see how bad this is?  This is intellectual suicide.  You might as well get a tattoo on your forehead that says "I don't use my brain".

Doublethink, baby! Christians own the patent on that s**t. The whole free-will/omniscient god thing is one of the shining examples. Ain't it cool?

Orwell would be pretty pleased with himself, I think... Probably a little surprised, too, how often it actually crops up. I'd love to know whether or not he actually got the idea from religions in the first place. I'd kind of assume so since finding genuine examples of doublethink outside of religious belief is almost impossible... Maybe in politics, to a degree, but even politics is nowhere near as infected as religion.

Religion is about the only thing I can think of that absolutely *requires* doublethink from the participant in order for it to work. And I think that's just swell.  &)

2+2=4. But sometimes 2+2=5. Deal with it bitches! <blows raspberry>
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Offline pingnak

Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #207 on: October 21, 2011, 12:17:04 AM »
23+23=113

24+24=104

2+2 does not make 5, unless you're using an older computer language with a buggy preprocessor that would allow you to do something like...

#define 5 4

Such that...
if( 5 == 2 + 2 )
{
   printf( "GAH!\n");
}

Would print 'GAH!'

I think certain versions of Fortran had that bug, but I could be mixing them up.

Just sayin'.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #208 on: October 21, 2011, 12:46:16 AM »
Who said the bible don't support 'free will.'?

Here is what I have to say about free will vs predestination.

We have our free will to make decisions in God's sovereignty.
Past, present, and future don't matter to God.  So whatever you choose by your free will is predestined by God.

Illogical?  For God anything is possible.
Want evidence? God doesn't have to prove anything.
Irrational? By whose definition?

After all, we are talking about God not your neighbor Bill.
So get used to it.

SK should definitely become a New Ager. I have some helpful suggestions for her:

Jim Humble has a great following, recommending that people drink Chlorine Dioxide; a form of bleach.
http://jimhumble.biz/

She should then move on to eating Laetrile, a cyano-toxin from almond kernels
http://www.cancertutor.com/Cancer/Laetrile.html

She should then become obsessed with her acid/alkaline balance and eat lots of magnesium citrate
http://www.health-science-spirit.com/calcium.html

Whenever she gets ill, she should use the bio-photon analyser, and cure herself with downloaded homeopathic remedies.
http://altered-states.net/index2.htm?/radionic/news.htm

I should point out that all these people, some of them chemists, advocating these therapies are intelligent people, who have awesome histories. So, that pretty much validates them all.


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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #209 on: October 21, 2011, 01:16:43 AM »
Who said the bible don't support 'free will.'?

Anybody who's read the thing and isn't already a Christian.


We have our free will to make decisions in God's sovereignty.
Past, present, and future don't matter to God.  So whatever you choose by your free will is predestined by God.

This is simply not possible. If this character knows what will happen, then your choices are an illusion.


Illogical?  For God anything is possible.

No, it's not. Your god can not make a dog that has both three legs and four. It can't make a galaxy that is also a penguin. Your baseball hat can not also be a t-shirt, or else it ceases to be the thing that it was.

 "DERP YER WRONG 'COS IT'S GAAWD!" Oh shut up and stop with the knee-jerk reactions. THINK about what is being said. You have trained your brain to accept multiple mutually exclusive ideas, and that is bad. You've effectively brain damaged yourself in order to think the way you do, in order to give credibility to the impossible idea of an all-powerful super being. This is not something to be proud of. 

Want evidence? God doesn't have to prove anything.

If all the Christians who have said "He wants you to believe in him more than ANYTHING!" are correct, than yeah, he does. If this god of yours doesn't want to roast 70% of all his creation throughout time in eternal hellfire, than yeah, he definitely needs to prove something.

It's odd enough that a GOD would want something and not get it, but if it was actually interested in my attention, it would know exactly what kind of evidence I would need in order to believe, and it could provide that evidence without a thought. That goes for every single person on the planet who isn't a Christian.
 
I think what you meant to say is,"I'm a total sucker, and *I* require no evidence or proof, so neither should you."
 



Irrational? By whose definition?

Again, every human being who reads the book or hears the stories who isn't already a Christian. Any thinking person outside of the bubble of your cult. You see, they have no incentive or reason to fool themselves the way you do. You desperately need to believe the silliness, so you'll believe whatever they tell you. Mentally healthy people, however, will not.


After all, we are talking about God not your neighbor Bill.
So get used to it.

No. How about that? Now what are you going to do about it? Well, besides giving me a "thumbs down" like a pissy little child who didn't get her way, of course lol.

It's really cute how you do that, by the way. I mean "thumbs down" anybody who utterly crushes your feeble little "arguements", or even mildly disagrees with you, and then "thumbs up" ing every single post by every Christian on the board, even if they don't actually say anything.

Look, I'm going to speak frankly. You're REALLY not mentally equipped to deal with this stuff sugar lips. This is a forum for grown folks to have grown folk conversations... Not a playground for moody little girls with an agenda. Christ, you don't even use your own words to express yourself! You just repeat whatever goofy ass little one-liners you've absorbed from preachers or read on Christian web-sites. If you can't even articulate your beliefs in your own words, we're basically talking to a parrot and you're completely wasting our time.

I suggest you go back to wherever it is you came from, where people are less likely to hear your poorly rehearsed propaganda and subsequently assume you're handicapped or something. Maybe you could, like, practice talking n' stuff. Might be good for you.

Give it some thought.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 01:32:30 AM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #210 on: October 21, 2011, 08:14:43 AM »
In the Bible death means separated from God. 

Based on what?  How do you come to the conclusion that death is not death as it is commonly understood?  I get that words in a particular context can have very specific meanings that are not the same as in casual conversation. For example, in casual conversation "speed" and "velocity" are identical in meaning.  But in physics, they are different.  Speed is a scalar quantity, while velocity is a vector.  Very different. 

So, why do you say death is not death?  What is your justification?

Physical death is gonna happen no matter what your world view.  When Jesus was on the Cross He cried out: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" He was separated from God because He took on YOUR sin.  Can you imagine?  After going through what He did and God turns His back on Him???   Jesus went to hell.  Selah

Did you even put 5 seconds worth of thought into this?
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Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #211 on: October 21, 2011, 08:21:44 AM »

Physical death is gonna happen no matter what your world view.  When Jesus was on the Cross He cried out: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" He was separated from God because He took on YOUR sin.  Can you imagine?  After going through what He did and God turns His back on Him???   Jesus went to hell.  Selah

Did you even put 5 seconds worth of thought into this?

I think you are wasting your time with this trolling lightweight screwtape (not meaning to pre-empt), but this trash hasn't defended addressed or offered evidence for any of his troll claims since he brought his regurgitating brand of taint to the site.
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #212 on: October 21, 2011, 08:37:52 AM »
1=3 and 3=1
One but three.  Three but one.
Trinity of God, where Christianity begins.

I told you faith comes from God, so normal, intelligent people can believe impossible things in the bible such as Trinity, talking snake, Jesus' death and resurrection.

If my faith came from my pastor (eventhough it is my pastor who told me about Jesus), I would not have believed in God.

My whole point of the topic "In order to believe in God",-------- faith comes from God.
Hope you enjoyed it.  :P
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IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #213 on: October 21, 2011, 08:50:24 AM »
Did you even put 5 seconds worth of thought into this?

I think someone else did the thinking for him. The rationale is quite sophisticated, if you ignore common dictionary word definitions, the conventional Jewish interpretation, and the thrust of the story - which states that Adam and Eve had:  "Behold, the man is become as one of us".

However, what brings most sophisticated Christian interpretations of Hebrew text to its knees, is the total lack of explanatory support within the text they are abusing. Normally, when text supports an idea, the idea is hammered ad-nauseum. But consistently, Christian ideas are not expressed very well. For example, try as I might, I cannot find the part where Jesus says "Worship me as a God, and you shall be spared hell." Although this is a fundamental axiom of Christian belief, it is never actually stated anywhere. Perhaps an oversight.


1=3 and 3=1
One but three.  Three but one.
Trinity of God, where Christianity begins.

See what I mean? Where is that in the Bible?

« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 08:52:41 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #214 on: October 21, 2011, 09:04:07 AM »
[I told you faith comes from God,
...
faith comes from God.

So why hasn't god given me any?  Why did god give an imbicile like you faith and not me?  There was a time in my life when I wanted to know god and I studied about what people have said about god and I prayed to god.  Yet, my faith vanished.   If what you say is true, then god took away my faith. 
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 09:05:44 AM by screwtape »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #215 on: October 21, 2011, 09:36:53 AM »
[I told you faith comes from God,
...
faith comes from God.

So why hasn't god given me any?  Why did god give an imbicile like you faith and not me?  There was a time in my life when I wanted to know god and I studied about what people have said about god and I prayed to god.  Yet, my faith vanished.   If what you say is true, then god took away my faith.
because you have an IQ above 70 points.......God can only reach a very few with higher IQ and you must not be one.
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Online Aaron123

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #216 on: October 21, 2011, 09:43:51 AM »
I told you faith comes from God, so normal, intelligent people can believe impossible things in the bible such as Trinity, talking snake, Jesus' death and resurrection.

If you accept all that, then what would be so ridiculous, that you'd reject it even if it was in the bible?

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #217 on: October 21, 2011, 09:48:06 AM »
.....faith comes from God.....If my faith came from my pastor, I would not have believed in God.

And your "free will" to choose came in where? 

Once again SK you have said that faith - and thus belief, and thus salvation - come from your GOD's decision.  NOT from anything that you, or I, can do.

So YOUR GOD has screwed me.  HE has decided NOT to give me faith....and so HE has determined that I will not be saved.

Your logic, SK, not mine.

I asked you before - how can you call a god who damns me for HIS decisions in any way "good"? 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #218 on: October 21, 2011, 12:50:46 PM »
1=3 and 3=1
One but three.  Three but one.
Trinity of God, where Christianity begins.

Anybody else cringe when they read s**t like this?

Sigh. Fifths of the second third. The third lies within the bottom of the fifth. The multiplicative of Xorklon, where NurdFurdling climaxes.

It's embarassing that grown ass adults can honestly regurgitate this garbage and think they're being profound or something.

Protip: You sound like a fucking lunatic. Stop, for your own sake.

By the way. Math? Good, you not being at are very no. Very very at bad is you. Report card "F" grade.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 12:53:05 PM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline pingnak

Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #219 on: October 21, 2011, 02:24:31 PM »
Nah.  If you're used to dealing with retards and psychotics, this is just run of the mill ranting.

Offline Alzael

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #220 on: October 21, 2011, 04:04:15 PM »
I told you faith comes from God, so normal, intelligent people can believe impossible things in the bible such as Trinity, talking snake, Jesus' death and resurrection.

What does it say about your beliefs, if god has to actually make people intelligent people believe it?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #221 on: October 21, 2011, 05:56:36 PM »
1=3 and 3=1
One but three.  Three but one.
Trinity of God, where Christianity begins.
See what I mean? Where is that in the Bible?
1) There is one God 
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one."(Deuteronomy 6:4)
"there is no God but one.” (1 Corinthians 8:4)
"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one."(Galatians 3:20)
"I and the Father are one."(John 10:30)

2) There are 3 persons in the Trinity of God
"Then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."(Genesis 1:26)
"Then the Lord God said, behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil."(Genesis 3:22)
"Come, let us go down and there confuse their language" (Genesis 11:7)
"And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?”(Isaiah 6:8 )
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"(Matthew 28:19)

There you have it.

I already know you guys call these "Bible contradictions"
But in a Chrstian(The ones who received the faith from God)point of view, it is God's word.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #222 on: October 21, 2011, 05:58:32 PM »

I already know you guys call these "Bible contradictions"
But in a Chrstian(The ones who received the faith from God)point of view, it is God's word.

At least we've finally agreed on one thing.

Gods words are always contradictions.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #223 on: October 21, 2011, 06:11:00 PM »
I asked you before - how can you call a god who damns me for HIS decisions in any way "good"?
It seems it doesn't matter what you call good or bad when the Creator of all things declares himself good.
"No one is good except God alone."(Luke 18:19)

And the Creator is claiming his right.
"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"(Romans 9:21)

So God chooses.  If you don't believe it? Fine,  maybe that is why you weren't chosen.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #224 on: October 21, 2011, 06:17:08 PM »
SK God had siblings,care to explain?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #225 on: October 21, 2011, 06:24:09 PM »
SK God had siblings,care to explain?
I dont't know.
I only know what is in the bible.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #226 on: October 21, 2011, 06:30:13 PM »
SK God had siblings,care to explain?
I dont't know.
I only know what is in the bible.
OT or NT? both? can't have one without the other.Yahweh was just one god in an ancient world where there were many gods
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #227 on: October 21, 2011, 06:39:50 PM »
OT or NT? both? can't have one without the other.Yahweh was just one god in an ancient world where there were many gods
Both.

God has been one, still one and will be one, but there are 3 persons in the Trinity.
It has been that way, still is, and will be forever.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #228 on: October 21, 2011, 07:22:31 PM »
you really that stupid?
  never mind
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #229 on: October 21, 2011, 07:34:13 PM »
Hey. 12M I just went to Vancouver B.C. last week.
Cable cars, butchart garden, triple digit speed limit(Km), Whistler ski resort was the best.

What do you do for living up there?

HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline catdance62

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #230 on: October 21, 2011, 07:48:30 PM »
Seems like SK is just babbling.....or is it just me? I can't see any coherence in the last few posts.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #231 on: October 21, 2011, 07:50:34 PM »

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"(Matthew 28:19)

There you have it.

I already know you guys call these "Bible contradictions"
But in a Chrstian(The ones who received the faith from God)point of view, it is God's word.

A smidge of evidence to back up a central dogma; a subject that has been controversial from the start, due to its lack of evidence
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm   <----- Catholic encylopedia

Although there is some minor basis to claim that Jesus is God, because John "said so"; the writer of Matthew views Jesus to be an authority of God, and the Holy Ghost (pneumati hagios; sacred breath) to be an effect of God. The Holy Spirit is the part of God that they pretended to see as a dove. However, just because you can see a part of God, doesn't mean that it deserves separate mention as a different God component. For example, God may decide to show himself as a water rat, but this does not mean that there is now a 4th part of God, so we have to call him the Quadity. Matthew names all the parts of God that he currently knows, but that does not mean that future Christians cannot make up some more bullshit and give God an upgrade to 4.0

Thus, to assert that God is a triunite entity requires biblical evidence that he has only 3 parts. This would require a statement, such as "I am God, and I am in 3 parts, and can only show myself as one of 3 parts". He is clearly not going to be saying something as retarded as this, so Christians have had to make the absurdity up for themselves.

The principle reason they have done this, is to justify why we would worship Jesus as a God, without offending the arbitrary Jewish dictum that there is only one God, and to be caught worshiping another God is blasphemy. The Jews, of course, still believe this, and have no concept of the Holy Spirit being a separate part of God, because such thinking is absurd.

The fact that you have swallowed the idea that there are only 3 parts to God, is testament to the efficiency of your brainwashing.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.