Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 28183 times)

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #174 on: October 16, 2011, 04:07:43 PM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

onesteward,

The sum total of the reasoning behind this belief is the ancient ramblings of people who didn't know enough to keep their crap out of their food.  Honestly, this is the year 2011.  Get over it.  Jesus is not coming back, and if he existed at all, he sure as hell did not resurrect in the first place.  It's been 2000 years, with hundreds of failed end time prophecies.  I just don't get how rational people can believe this stuff. 

I'm with jetson here.  The entire thing is hopelessly embarrassing.  Really.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #175 on: October 17, 2011, 07:40:44 AM »
We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

When?

And that resurrection thing is kind of dubious.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #176 on: October 17, 2011, 08:25:23 AM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

So Resurection is a skill set? Is it like the skill set, carpentry? Oh, so anyone is welcome to try, and there are some who do it poorly. But some, with enough practice, can get really good at it. What are the exact skills that are part of this skill set?


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #177 on: October 17, 2011, 09:13:47 AM »
given that it is a skill, it is pretty amazing jesus H did it right on the first try.  So many other people don't.
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Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #178 on: October 17, 2011, 10:33:23 AM »

onesteward,

The sum total of the reasoning behind this belief is the ancient ramblings of people who didn't know enough to keep their crap out of their food.  Honestly, this is the year 2011.  Get over it.  Jesus is not coming back, and if he existed at all, he sure as hell did not resurrect in the first place.  It's been 2000 years, with hundreds of failed end time prophecies.  I just don't get how rational people can believe this stuff.
Quote

 My understanding of Christs return involves the nation Israel. If that is correct then His return couldn't have occured between 70 A.D. ?  and 1948.Why people think they know the time and date is beyond me.I think Scripture teaches that nobody knows except God .
Quote
I'm with jetson here.  The entire thing is hopelessly embarrassing.  Really.   

Well, you're in good company.Jetson seems to be a nice person.
 
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

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Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #179 on: October 17, 2011, 10:43:22 AM »
We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

Quote
When?
Of course nobody knows exactly, however, it'll probably be like the first time He came....in the fullness of time - that will be Gods call.
Quote

And that resurrection thing is kind of dubious.

 It certainly seems to be for lots of people.I mean there have been threads  in here that went on and on for pages about it.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #180 on: October 17, 2011, 12:00:52 PM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

So Resurection is a skill set? Is it like the skill set, carpentry? Oh, so anyone is welcome to try, and there are some who do it poorly. But some, with enough practice, can get really good at it. What are the exact skills that are part of this skill set?

 First of all Grasshopper, you will have to master the 'dying skill'.Begin now to practice that and when I'm convinced you are good enough at that skill we shall continue.You cool with that?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #181 on: October 17, 2011, 12:06:44 PM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

So Resurection is a skill set? Is it like the skill set, carpentry? Oh, so anyone is welcome to try, and there are some who do it poorly. But some, with enough practice, can get really good at it. What are the exact skills that are part of this skill set?

 First of all Grasshopper, you will have to master the 'dying skill'.Begin now to practice that and when I'm convinced you are good enough at that skill we shall continue.You cool with that?

Avoidance of the question, and an insult on top. Try answering it.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #182 on: October 17, 2011, 12:51:01 PM »
onesteward,

Your quoting skills are atrocious.  Please improve them.  It will help us understand what you are talking about.
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Please do this before your next post.  Thanks.

Regards,
Screwtape

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Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #183 on: October 17, 2011, 01:39:31 PM »
Avoidance of the question, and an insult on top. Try answering it.

If you really want the "skill set" for dying and Resurrection to be treated as a serious subject you will have to engage someone else....I wouldn't be able to do it.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #184 on: October 17, 2011, 01:41:06 PM »
onesteward,

Your quoting skills are atrocious.  Please improve them.  It will help us understand what you are talking about.
Quoting FAQ and Tutorial
Test Area

Please do this before your next post.  Thanks.

Regards,
Screwtape



 Will do.Thank you for that info.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #185 on: October 17, 2011, 01:42:38 PM »
Avoidance of the question, and an insult on top. Try answering it.

If you really want the "skill set" for dying and Resurrection to be treated as a serious subject you will have to engage someone else....I wouldn't be able to do it.

Then you are making an unsubstantiated claim. Please review the FAQ on that subject.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #186 on: October 17, 2011, 02:26:32 PM »

Then you are making an unsubstantiated claim. Please review the FAQ on that subject.

 You are absolutely correct.I took the original 'skill set' thing as being a serious response made in a semi-serious way.I apologize.I thought I was "in the spirit of the whole thing"with my responses.Guess not. Are we able to move on now?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #187 on: October 17, 2011, 03:20:52 PM »

Then you are making an unsubstantiated claim. Please review the FAQ on that subject.

 You are absolutely correct.I took the original 'skill set' thing as being a serious response made in a semi-serious way.I apologize.I thought I was "in the spirit of the whole thing"with my responses.Guess not. Are we able to move on now?

Surely, but if you wish to be treated well, perhaps you shouldn't literally suggest a person should die. It did come across as more than a little rude. Look over what you wrote and put yourself in the mode of the reader, remove all inflection indicating jocularity in your internal voice. In fact referring to a person you are arguing with as "grasshopper" is an indicator of condecention. There's a reason emoticons were invented. It was a missunderstanding, and I comprehend that now.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #188 on: October 18, 2011, 06:37:13 AM »
So Resurection is a skill set? .....with enough practice, can get really good at it. What are the exact skills that are part of this skill set?

given that it is a skill, it is pretty amazing jesus H did it right on the first try.  So many other people don't.

Well, not really.  For starters it was "commonly reported" that he didn't resurrect in the first place.  But even if he did, it seems he had problems with:

(a) looking and sounding the same as he did before (John 20:14, 21:4, Luke 24:16)
(b) corporeal solidity (John 20:19, 20:26, Luke 24:31, 24:36)

Frankly, to be "good" as resurrection, I'd expect to be recognisable to people I'd been in daily contact with for the last few years - and also not to keep phasing in and out of solidity.  I'd rate him a "poor, needs work" for his resurrection skills, frankly.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #189 on: October 19, 2011, 12:08:29 PM »
So Resurection is a skill set? .....with enough practice, can get really good at it. What are the exact skills that are part of this skill set?

given that it is a skill, it is pretty amazing jesus H did it right on the first try.  So many other people don't.

Well, not really.  For starters it was "commonly reported" that he didn't resurrect in the first place.  But even if he did, it seems he had problems with:

(a) looking and sounding the same as he did before (John 20:14, 21:4, Luke 24:16)
(b) corporeal solidity (John 20:19, 20:26, Luke 24:31, 24:36)

Frankly, to be "good" as resurrection, I'd expect to be recognisable to people I'd been in daily contact with for the last few years - and also not to keep phasing in and out of solidity.  I'd rate him a "poor, needs work" for his resurrection skills, frankly.

It makes you wonder if they had some sort of Jesus lookalike standing by, ready to fool the peasants.

Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #190 on: October 19, 2011, 05:36:36 PM »
God was going to produce evidence enough for backslidden Israel to choose to 'follow God".I' was under the impression you didn't believe in free will regarding following God.So if the stage is set for a reproduction of this miracle I'll have to assume the Christian would be "Elijah" here.Now which are you going to be? Backslidden Israel? The prophets of baal and asherah?In the story the backsliders owned up and returned to The God of Israel.However even though 850 false prophets saw the Fire from The Lord it doesn't seem that they repented.
  Well, onesteward, the bible doesn’t support free will.  However, it’s full of nonsense that contradicts itself.  If there were no free will, the whole bible makes no sense starting with “In the beginning…”  I do love how you want to claim that God “was” about to do something but golly, didn’t get around to it.  So, this omnipotent beign can’t do something?  How not in the definition…&)  and I’m just asking for evidence for your god. No need to suddenly have to get all metaphorical is there?  Or do we have one more instance in the bible where suddenly the literal now becomes metaphor since we have a cornered Christian?  I’m looking for a true believer and a poser who is worshipping a false god, just like in the story.  I’m just the amused observer, and the one looking for the evidence that your god is real and as you claim.  The backslidden Israel if you wish, though I don’t even think this god exists, but my mind is always open if you think you can produce.  And you are wrong, there is nothing in 1 Kings that say what the other priests thought.  As always, onesteward, you add things that are not there.  We only see that Elijah murders the priests, not what they thought.   
 
Quote
Thomas got a sign ,The Israelites got a sign, Gideon and Elijah got signs.They didn't get Bibles though.We did and by virtue of that we got them( the  signs) as well.So who are you going to be? The False prophet? The sign won't do you any good...The backslider? in that case you already had enough evidence to believe once.To keep giving you signs seems superfluous.Of course the fake prophets might have thought - hey the fire might not be from God....has science confirmed it yet?
  Oh the bible is supposed to be a “sign”?  Really, a book that has been changed, interpreted in a million different ways, that no one has yet to show that they have the “right” interpretation of?  Oh my, onesteward, that’s funny.  I do love your assurance since so many of your fellow Christians say we’re still getting “signs”.  Are they lying, onesteward?  Can you show me that they are?  Again, we have competing Christians on what their God “really” wants.  And ah, so much for your god who wants everyone to believe in it.  Or isn’t that your particular god?  The evidence I once found adequate has been found wanting, onesteward, and your god evidently found no need to support it or himself.  Why not, onesteward, why not the evidence given to Thomas, given to me?  Thomas supposedly had JC right there and didn’t believe completely.  At one point, I was a backslider, so where was the hand pullign me back like Thomas god?  Then I became a complete atheist but still open minded, and in these last 20+ years?   Why not give me the evidence I evidently need, onesteward,  if what God has shown me hasn’t worked yet?  God surely knows what it will take so why doesn’t it do something?  And I do love you calling me a “false prophet”.  If I’m so false, surely you have evidence for your god and your claims, but again, nothing.  Who is the false prophet here?  One who doesn’t believe with the brain that god supposedly gave her or the person who claims things but can’t show that those things are true? 
 
Quote
You make claims that I said things I didn't say,I mean thing I don't mean, make claims I didn't make or imply,read my mind what, do have some kind of 'magic decoder ring' ? Your take on what kind of Christian I am is your right of course.I will address the "repenting thing again though.If you repented  you must have repented of something.My question was, is ,at that point was there a change regarding that which you repented of? Simple question really.Actually based on your posts you don't understand me at all.
  Not at all.  I have quoted you with what you have said.  I know what kind of Christain you are because of what *you* have said, nothing else.  And I do understand you well.  More questions on just how I repented.  How cute, still desperately trying to find a reason to declare I wasn’t really a Christian.  Now, it’s “was there a change in what you repented of?”  and before it was “Velkyn it seems to me after talking to virtually everyone I know who 'got saved' that the change would be noticeable to you.Nothing? You were exactly the same before and after?”  Just hilarious.
You are just like SK, onesteward, all sure that you are the only right one and no one else is. This is why I’d love to see you both in front of altars because I’m pretty sure you both don’t agree either.
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #191 on: October 20, 2011, 12:58:14 PM »
Interesting... You go on to say this:
Quote
I don't know {if Jesus actually died} because I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I am not God.
So you're telling us that you *do* know the perspective of your alleged god regarding past, present and future, yet you *do not* know the pertinent facts of a quasi-historical event a mere 2000 years ago?
I see now where the confusion came from.  I meant to say like this.
I don't know {if there were only 2 persons of the trinity when Jesus was dead} because I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I am not God.

And I've decided to stick with the story "Jesus died for our sins".
Simply because the bible tells so.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline fishjie

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #192 on: October 20, 2011, 01:07:41 PM »
why believe what the bible says

Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #193 on: October 20, 2011, 02:23:07 PM »
Good question, My best and honest answer would be.

"I was created that way"

Wish there were better ways to describe it.  Maybe someday.
People tend to make mistake and think that they can choose what they believe.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #194 on: October 20, 2011, 03:03:02 PM »
Good question, My best and honest answer would be.

"I was created that way"

Wish there were better ways to describe it.  Maybe someday.
People tend to make mistake and think that they can choose what they believe.

So you do apply Skepticism as to the Greek Gods involvement with the Trajan war...right?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #195 on: October 20, 2011, 04:09:30 PM »
Good question, My best and honest answer would be.

"I was created that way"

Wish there were better ways to describe it.  Maybe someday.
People tend to make mistake and think that they can choose what they believe.

If you asked an Islamic fundamentalist why he believed in the Quran, and he told you that he was created that way, what would you think of that response? 

People can not choose what to believe.  That is true.  But with education and application of logic and reasoning, you can learn something new which allows for changing beliefs.  Many people here did exactly that.  They educated themselves, and it led their beliefs in a new direction. 

You can go from believing what the bible says to not believing what the bible says.  It's not that big a leap.  It just takes a little work. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #196 on: October 20, 2011, 04:17:27 PM »
Good question, My best and honest answer would be.

"I was created that way"

Wish there were better ways to describe it.  Maybe someday.
People tend to make mistake and think that they can choose what they believe.

Indeed. People can NOT choose what they believe. Or don't.

Now that we all agree on that, do you see any problems with the fact that all these nice, decent (certainly not EVIL at any rate) people on this forum are, according to your religion, doomed to an *eternity* of demonic ass rape simply because of what they do, or do not believe?

A thing you yourself have admitted, we have no choice over?

Do you think that something like *belief* is really the best yardstick to determine who should suffer for eternity? Don't you think it would be better if the qualifier was something like, oh, I dunno, what kind of person you are in life? How you treat others? What you accomplish, or how much damage you cause to the world or other people?

If YOU were a god, isn't that what YOU would base salvation on? Most normal people would say "Yes."

But your god, for whatever reason, values belief above EVERYTHING else, including whether or not you've murdered half a million people. Why? And how does that play into the declaration that we all have "free will"? We can not choose what we do or do not believe (you've said so yourself), yet according to your religion, your evil boogieman of a god has already plotted out our eternal and cosmic torture because we simply have not found enough compelling evidence to convince us of it's existence.

So our stories have already been written, and they're all to end in unspeakable horrors that last FOR*EV*ER. Does that seem fair to you? Logical? Does that seem like a system that a "perfect", all powerful super being would put in place?

Or does it perhaps sound more like an ancient, primitive threat used by preachers and clergy to make sure that people don't drift away from the religion?

Think on it.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #197 on: October 20, 2011, 06:47:57 PM »
Good Job onesteward and Serpent Killa!!!  Preach It!!

Let me give you atheists a good argument to throw at Christians.  God said if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will SURELY die.  Yet, after they ate, God fashioned clothes (dang) for them and taught them how to survive.   How can that be???

In the Bible death means separated from God.  Physical death is gonna happen no matter what your world view.  When Jesus was on the Cross He cried out: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" He was separated from God because He took on YOUR sin.  Can you imagine?  After going through what He did and God turns His back on Him???   Jesus went to hell.  Selah
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #198 on: October 20, 2011, 07:10:40 PM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

onesteward,


The sum total of the reasoning behind this belief is the ancient ramblings of people who didn't know enough to keep their crap out of their food.  Honestly, this is the year 2011.  Get over it.  Jesus is not coming back, and if he existed at all, he sure as hell did not resurrect in the first place.  It's been 2000 years, with hundreds of failed end time prophecies.  I just don't get how rational people can believe this stuff. 

I'm with jetson here.  The entire thing is hopelessly embarrassing.  Really.   

At least God has a sense of humor.  Voltaire had your guys world view and stated that "in 100 years the Bible would be a book relegated to Antiquity"  (in museums).  One hundred years after his death the house he lived in was a warehouse/distribution center for the Bible.  It was packed to the eaves with Bibles going throughout the world.

Imagine Lennon who basically said the same thing.

Good luck fellas (luck or chance is the basic foundational cornerstone principle/"fact" of your world view). 

So it's either luck (chance) or faith based on a book that has not been proven wrong.  Which will you choose?

Dang, I wish they would have called it the magic particle instead of the God particle, even though God did create it if it exists.  The magic particle will only make your world view less tenable.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #199 on: October 20, 2011, 07:33:33 PM »
  Well, onesteward, the bible doesn’t support free will.  However, it’s full of nonsense that contradicts itself.  If there were no free will, the whole bible makes no sense starting with “In the beginning…”

 Why did Christ die for everyone?If there is no free will then the whole Bible makes no sense? Well...exactly.You do remember that I'm not a Calvinist?


Quote
I do love how you want to claim that God “was” about to do something but golly, didn’t get around to it.  So, this omnipotent beign can’t do something?  How not in the definition…&)


I'm not sure what you mean here, Velkyn.I believe God does have "limitations", though.

Quote
and I’m just asking for evidence for your god. No need to suddenly have to get all metaphorical is there?  Or do we have one more instance in the bible where suddenly the literal now becomes metaphor since we have a cornered Christian?  I’m looking for a true believer and a poser who is worshipping a false god, just like in the story.  I’m just the amused observer, and the one looking for the evidence that your god is real and as you claim.  The backslidden Israel if you wish, though I don’t even think this god exists, but my mind is always open if you think you can produce.
If you are referring to 'fire on the altar' I couldn't.All the evidence needed is already 'in play'.That should have been obvious by your own conversion.

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  And you are wrong, there is nothing in 1 Kings that say what the other priests thought.  As always, onesteward, you add things that are not there.  We only see that Elijah murders the priests, not what they thought.
Of course not.Even if it did I would think 'science' would be the furthest thing from their thoughts at that time.
I think murder would require "innocent victims".I  don't think God saw them that way, actually.
 
Quote
   Oh the bible is supposed to be a “sign”?  Really, a book that has been changed, interpreted in a million different ways, that no one has yet to show that they have the “right” interpretation of?
Are you saying that there is no overall consensus about the basic tenets of the Christian faith, Velkyn?Your conversion experience and mine are very similar, actually.You are obviously Calvinistic while I am not.No problem there.
 The point I was making though is this: I believe The Bible so if it testifies that Thomas was given that particular sign it is the same as me getting it.





 
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #200 on: October 20, 2011, 07:58:11 PM »
Who said the bible don't support 'free will.'?

Here is what I have to say about free will vs predestination.

We have our free will to make decisions in God's sovereignty.
Past, present, and future don't matter to God.  So whatever you choose by your free will is predestined by God.

Illogical?  For God anything is possible.
Want evidence? God doesn't have to prove anything.
Irrational? By whose definition?

After all, we are talking about God not your neighbor Bill.
So get used to it.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline Historicity

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #201 on: October 20, 2011, 08:07:13 PM »
Let me give you atheists a good argument to throw at Christians.  God said if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will SURELY die.  Yet, after they ate, God fashioned clothes (dang) for them and taught them how to survive.   How can that be???
This came up in a thread recently.

Quote from: jtp56
In the Bible death means separated from God.

As Reverend Lovejoy said to Marge Simpson pointing at the Bible, "Did you ever read that thing?"
Quote
DEATH in GENESIS
21:16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bow shot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child.  And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.
24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.
25:11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed his son Isaac; and Isaac dwelt by the well Lahairoi.
26:11 And Abimelech charged all his people, saying, He that toucheth this man or his wife shall surely be put to death.
26:18 And Isaac digged again the wells of water, which they had digged in the days of Abraham his father; for the Philistines had stopped them after the death of Abraham:
27:2 And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death
27:10 And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death.

DIE in GENESIS
6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
19:19 Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:
20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
25:32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
26:9 And Abimelech called Isaac, and said, Behold, of a surety she is thy wife; and how saidst thou, She is my sister? And Isaac said unto him, Because I said, Lest I die for her.
27:4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.
30:1 And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die.
33:13 And he said unto him, My lord knoweth that the children are tender, and the flocks and herds with young are with me: and if men should overdrive them one day, all the flock will die.
38:11 Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house.
42:2 And he said, Behold, I have heard that there is corn in Egypt: get you down thither, and buy for us from thence; that we may live, and not die.
42:20 But bring your youngest brother unto me; so shall your words be verified, and ye shall not die.
43:8 And Judah said unto Israel his father, Send the lad with me, and we will arise and go; that we may live, and not die, both we, and thou, and also our little ones.
44:9 With whomsoever of thy servants it be found, both let him die, and we also will be my lord's bondmen.
44:22 And we said unto my lord, The lad cannot leave his father: for if he should leave his father, his father would die.
44:31 It shall come to pass, when he seeth that the lad is not with us, that he will die: and thy servants shall bring down the gray hairs of thy servant our father with sorrow to the grave.
45:28 And Israel said, It is enough; Joseph my son is yet alive:  I will go and see him before I die.
46:30 And Israel said unto Joseph, Now let me die, since I have seen thy face, because thou art yet alive.
47:19 Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh:  and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.
47:29 And the time drew nigh that Israel must die: and he called his son Joseph, and said unto him, If now I have found grace in thy sight, put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh, and deal kindly and truly with me; bury me not, I pray thee, in Egypt:
48:21 And Israel said unto Joseph, Behold, I die: but God shall be with you, and bring you again unto the land of your fathers.
50:5 My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my grave which I have digged for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou bury me.
Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and bury my father, and I will come again.
50:24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware
 to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

DIED in GENESIS
5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years:  and he died.
5:8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years:  and he died.
5:11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years:  and he died.
5:14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years:  and he died.
5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died
7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
9:29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died
11:32 And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran.
23:2 And Sarah died in Kirjatharba; the same is Hebron in the land of Canaan: and Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her.
25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
25:18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his
 brethren.
35:8 But Deborah Rebekah's nurse died, and she was buried beneath Bethel under an oak: and the name of it was called Allonbachuth.
35:19 And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.
36:33 And Bela died, and Jobab the son of Zerah of Bozrah reigned in his stead.
36:34 And Jobab died, and Husham of the land of Temani reigned in his stead.
36:35 And Husham died, and Hadad the son of Bedad, who smote Midian in the field of Moab, reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Avith.
36:36 And Hadad died, and Samlah of Masrekah reigned in his stead.
36:37 And Samlah died, and Saul of Rehoboth by the river reigned in his stead.
36:38 And Saul died, and Baalhanan the son of Achbor reigned in his stead.
36:39 And Baalhanan the son of Achbor died,
38:12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted
46:12 And the sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah, and Pharez, and Zarah: but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan.
48:7 And as for me, when I came from Padan, Rachel died by me in the land of Canaan in the way
50:16 And they sent a messenger unto Joseph, saying, Thy father did command before he died, saying,
50:26 So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt.

And I could go on, book after book.


Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #202 on: October 20, 2011, 08:40:45 PM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

onesteward,


The sum total of the reasoning behind this belief is the ancient ramblings of people who didn't know enough to keep their crap out of their food.  Honestly, this is the year 2011.  Get over it.  Jesus is not coming back, and if he existed at all, he sure as hell did not resurrect in the first place.  It's been 2000 years, with hundreds of failed end time prophecies.  I just don't get how rational people can believe this stuff. 

I'm with jetson here.  The entire thing is hopelessly embarrassing.  Really.   

At least God has a sense of humor.


LOL Bwahahahaha YEAH he does!



Oh, that Yahwah! What a jokester lulz! 

Voltaire had your guys world view and stated that "in 100 years the Bible would be a book relegated to Antiquity"  (in museums). 

Imagine Lennon who basically said the same thing.


What's your point? Were Voltaire and John Lennon supposed to be magical future telling prophets or something? They're just people, and everybody's guilty of a little wishfull thinking now and again.

But you know, it seems to me there WAS some kind of allegedly magical prophet type guy who once said he was going to come back "before the last of this generation passes the Earth"... Wish I could remember who that was. I remember he really hated fig trees...  Well anyway, that was 2,000 years ago... Ain't happened yet. Maybe the rigormortis in his zombie joints just made slow on the draw?  :?   

Well, point is, prophecies and predictions ain't worth s**t, regardless of who makes 'em. You should stop believing everybody and their brother can predict the future. It kinda makes you look like a rube.

Christianity IS on the decline, though. Has been for decades now. This is why the religious right are always crying about how we're growing apart from god and forgetting god or how we need to get back to god or get more god in our lives.

Good luck fellas (luck or chance is the basic foundational cornerstone principle/"fact" of your world view). 

You know, I'm getting really fucking sick of you telling me what my world view is, ya unbelievable douche burger. I'm sure I'm not alone. You don't know me, and you don't know WHAT my worldview is, other than the fact that I don't believe the goofy ass fables about your magical Jewish zombie on a stick or his foreskin collecting pappy.   

You might look like jolly ol' St. Nick, but you don't even know if I'm naughty or nice. Tell you what though, you keep making smarmy little assumptions about me and acting like you have a fucking clue who I am or what I'm about, and you'll find out with a quickness.

This is me being nice.

So it's either luck (chance) or faith based on a book that has not been proven wrong.  Which will you choose?

Those are my choices? Well I think you've provided one seriously bullshit multiple choice based on your own utter stupidity, but if those are my options, I'd take luck/chance. Hell, I'd take voodoo over your laughable holy book.

Sigh... Yes, it's been proven wrong. Over and over and over and over again. A 5 year old with Down's Snydrome can prove it wrong by pointing at a big boat and going "You can't put 30+ million animals on that."

Look here gramps, you want to keep your head firmly lodged up in yer dusty colon and ignore geology, physics, cosmology, biology, and basic common sense, while being utterly terrified of all things science, knock yourself out... All it does is reinforce your cult's image as archaic and completely out of touch with reality. And it don't change reality. You can say there was some "Noahic Flood" 4,000 years ago over and over until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it so.

I get it. I do. You're so utterly terrified of having anything in your murderbook contradicted or questioned, you'll deny ANY fact no matter how rock solid it is. You'll jump on the defensive before you even finish hearing the evidence. Hell, every post you make is defensive in some way and 3/4ths of the time nobody was even talking to you in the first place; you just drop in the middle of a thread being defensive and smarmy and pretentious and fearful and no matter what the response is to your gobbledeegook you only snowball the goofiness of your own rhetoric until you work yourself into a lather of self-rightous trolling.

What I don't get is what you possibly hope to accomplish. You come across as such a straight up unpleasant person, I can't imagine anybody sympathizing with you on a personal level... Your "arguements" such as they are, are ancient and feeble and covered in cobwebs, so I can't imagine anybody actually learning anything... Your "facts", when they're not twisted or misrepresented, are laughably transparent out-and-out lies, like the Noahic Flood thing, so I can't imagine anybody being swayed by Liars For Jesus...

I've got a pretty solid imagination, too. So I'm at a loss. You certainly aren't doing your cult any favors or making it look at all appealing lol.

Wait a sec... Nahhh. I know what you hope to accomplish. You want to feel good about yourself! Bingo! You want to be able to go around to your bible-beating buddies and brag about how you stuck it to those godless heathens, no? Score yourself some bookoo god points. You want to be the Mighty Christian Soldier, virtuous and cosmically superior, spreading gawd's truthiness from the tip of a sword...

But unfortunately you don't have a sword and even if you did I suspect the crippling arthritis would prevent you from using it effectively... So you have to settle for being all geriatric and crotchety in our little slice of the internet.

I understand that as you get older you grow more and more resistant to change, and you've made it abundantly clear how much change terrifies you... And how grateful you are that you can always go back to your unchanging holy book for a good ol' dose of stagnant farming metaphors... But it's worrisome that you and the weirdos like you want the world to remain stuck in the freakin' dark ages or something. The rest of us are excited about the possiblities of new discovery and cutting edge science, but you want to sit in your Laz-E-Boy and throw darts at anything that pops up because you just can't handle the idea of the world moving past you.

Bad news, buckaroo. It already has moved past you. Waaaay past you. A long, long time ago. The friction between you and your fellow humans comes from the fact that you can't accept this, and in fact have the vanity to think you've got your chubby little fingers on the pulse of the universe or something.

Dang, I wish they would have called it the magic particle instead of the God particle, even though God did create it if it exists.  The magic particle will only make your world view less tenable.
 

&) Wit sharp like a banana on this one. Think you need to up your dose of Ginkgo-Biloba there, Redbeard. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 08:52:32 PM by RaymondKHessel »
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