Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 29676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2121
  • Darwins +252/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #145 on: October 14, 2011, 09:06:16 PM »
God is not a nice guy to you, sorry.

God's not real.  It's a fairy tale.  You're losing badly and you know it.  I predict you won't last much longer here.     

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3082
  • Darwins +280/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #146 on: October 14, 2011, 10:29:35 PM »
Ask God...

How are we supposed to determine if any answer we get is actually coming from a god, and not from:
  • Malevolent, mischievous supernatural being pretending to be a good god;
  • Telepathic or technologically advanced extraterrestrials;
  • Our own imaginations?
I think that "our own imaginations" is by far the most likely possibility.  I am an agnostic atheist precisely because I can't think of any reliable way to sort out "real" gods from fakes, wannabes and brain farts.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline pingnak

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2327
  • Darwins +34/-3
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #147 on: October 14, 2011, 10:32:34 PM »
Yeah, how do you tell the real 'god' from all the other voices in your head?

It might pay to be sure (the woman in this story who FOLLOWED GOD'S INSTRUCTIONS died, BTW).
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/french-teacher-self-immolates-over-rowdy-pupils/story-e6frg6so-1226166539686

Does 'god' have a special ringtone when he makes a pronouncement in your head?

How does that work?

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3082
  • Darwins +280/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #148 on: October 15, 2011, 01:24:39 AM »
It is because God's sovereignty is absolute. In his divine perspective, past, present, and future don't matter.

Interesting... You go on to say this:

Quote
I don't know {if Jesus actually died} because I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I am not God.

So you're telling us that you *do* know the perspective of your alleged god regarding past, present and future, yet you *do not* know the pertinent facts of a quasi-historical event a mere 2000 years ago?

Curiouser and curiouser...
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline dloubet

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1409
  • Darwins +83/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • Denisloubet.com
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #149 on: October 15, 2011, 02:26:45 AM »
It's even worse if you also believe in the Satan character. There you have a supernatural being called The Father of Lies that is possessed of unknown powers of persuasion. With a being like that on the loose, how can you trust anything? Everything you see, hear, or even think, could be a confabulation of Lucifer. You can't trust the bible, that's the first thing an evil being is likely to produce.

The only way you can make knowledge claims in that situation is to believe that you are somehow arbitrarily immune to the blandishments of this mysterious ageless entity.
Denis Loubet

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6215
  • Darwins +411/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #150 on: October 15, 2011, 03:34:32 AM »
If his sovereignty is absolute, and God predestines all things, then there is nothing to be mad about.
there must be something, ask God.

If I am omnipotent, I can be anywhere I want at any time I want, or even in as many places as I want at the same time.
Ask God

Tell you what SK - YOU are the one who knows what your god is all about, why don't YOU ask him, then come tell us.  These are important questions about the god you have devoted your life to, and yet you don't know the answers? 

If my servants (which I don't need) are dying of cancer, and I am omnipotent, I will cure the cancer.
Of course you will cure the cancer, but you ain't God.

I would fix his cancer because I know nobody deserves to die from that shit. I wouldn't play favorites if I was omnipotent. What would be the point?  I'd be better than everybody.  I'd try to help everyone.  Make the world a better place, you know?  I'd smite cancer like the little bitch it is.
Of course you would smite cancer, but you ain't God.

You know what?  Jeff has shown in these examples that he would be a much better god than yours.  And from your answers, it seems you agree with him.  JEff has shown that he would be an impartial and all-loving god, who would strive ALWAYS to do the best for his creation, no matter what.  By contrast, YOUR god is partisan, biased, loves with strict conditions....in no way is it any kind of perfect being.  And yet you worship it.  Why?  Perhaps because....

But if you really think God is like this, then your God is not a nice guy at all.
God is not a nice guy to you, sorry.

Ah yes.  You worship god because you kiss his backside and jump when he says "frog"....because you know full well that if you don't, then his wonderful all-loving exterior will vanish in an instant to reveal the insecure, needy bully behind it.  That's not a god, that's an abusive and bullying husband.

You live in fear of your god every second SK, don't you?  Knowing that only while you toe the narrow line of his good graces will you receive his love.  Knowing that he isn't really loving, just manipulative. 

I can unerstand your fear, SK.  It takes a lot of strength of will to leave an abusive relationship, so I don't blame you for staying within it and trying to pretend that everything in the garden is rosy while you wear big shades and long sleeves to hide the bruises.  You almost have my deepest sympathy..,....

...but not quite.  Because you want US to JOIN you in that abusive relationship.  It's one thing to not have the strength to extricate yourself, but quite another to try to get others to join you.  That shows something seriously lacking in your character - though perhaps you've been in the abusive relationship so long it really DOES seem normal to you.

Thank you, but no.  Jeff has made it crystal clear - as have you, by your responses - that the god you worship is a vicious, partisan monster, by no means a creature who could be described as "good" or "perfect" or "loving".  The only reason to worship it is through fear - and I just don't roll that way.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1350
  • Darwins +454/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #151 on: October 15, 2011, 08:03:49 AM »
It is because God's sovereignty is absolute. In his divine perspective, past, present, and future don't matter.

This merely restates the premise, it does not answer the question I asked: what does he have to be angry about?

I am going to make up a story based on the bible. Are you ready?

If you're going to use a made-up story, might as well just use the Bible itself... *grynne*

let's think of you as an omnipotent being, if you had 2 servants, A and B.

To paraphrase that great philosopher, Captain James T. Kirk, what use has an omnipotent being, for servants?

they both are dying of cancer because of their smoking habit.

OK, but since I planned and predestined that they would smoke and get cancer before they were born and they had no power to flout my will in the matter, what basis do I have to be angry with them, or sneer, "You deserve what you get for being stupid enough to smoke!  Expect no help from me!"


You already know 'A' is loyal and trust worthy

If he's that way because I predestined that he should be according to my sovereign will, then he deserves no credit or "atta-boys."

and 'B' is going to have sex your wife and kill your son while you are gone.

Since he's doing this because I'm pushing the buttons on his remote control in accordance with a plan I made in eternity past, what basis do I have to be angry with him?  He's only doing exactly what I intend that he do--remember, my sovereignty is absolute.

You really don't want to lose your loyal servant 'A', so you send a messanger(Christian)

What use do I have for a "messenger?"  If I'm omnipotent, I wouldn't need one of those any more than I'd need a screwdriver or a toilet.

and give him your magical power(gospel and faith) to heal his cancer(sin)

What an inelegant, even silly, Rube Goldberg way to go about things!

because 'A' might not be perfect, but he is still half way descent, loyal and good.

Only because I made him that way.  The absolute sovereignty of my will and my omniscient foreknowledge leaves no room for him to genuinely rebel against me, or even want to try.

And leave 'B' alone so 'B' will die of cancer eventually.
'B' might complain and say "Lord why am I dying and you are saving 'A'?
and the you might say "you are dying of cancer because you smoke and I am pissed off at you"

Let me ask the question you're avoiding, again:  Why would I be "pissed off" at him?  Do you think George Lucas ever got angry at Darth Vader for being such a bad guy?

And servant 'B' will have no idea what you are talking about, because he doesn't know, he didn't do anything.

Then I am still unjust, to punish him for a deed that he has not done, and could not have done apart from my foreknowledge and intent that he do it.  So any "preemptive punishment" I might inflict on him would be pointless savagery.  Do you think it would be fair for you to be arrested and sent to the electric chair for a crime a psychic said you were destined to commit in 10 years?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1350
  • Darwins +454/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #152 on: October 15, 2011, 08:36:57 AM »
Of course there still remains questions like "why god made servant 'B' in the first place"
Or "why not 'all-loving-god' make 'B' loyal and save him"

But questions like those, I can not answer because I am not God.

The answer to those questions is obvious: Yahweh is not "all-loving." 

Do you believe that Jesus actually died?  Between the time when Jesus slumped on the cross letting out his last breath, and the Resurrection, were there only two Persons of the Trinity?

I don't know, because I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I am not God.

You never believed!  :'(

"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7312
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #153 on: October 15, 2011, 08:46:27 AM »
Of course there still remains questions like "why god made servant 'B' in the first place"
Or "why not 'all-loving-god' make 'B' loyal and save him"

But questions like those, I can not answer because I am not God.

The answer to those questions is obvious: Yahweh is not "all-loving." 

Do you believe that Jesus actually died?  Between the time when Jesus slumped on the cross letting out his last breath, and the Resurrection, were there only two Persons of the Trinity?

I don't know, because I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I am not God.

You never believed!  :'(

bwu ha ha ha ha....

Offline SERPENT KILLA

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Darwins +1/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • RESURRECTED SAINT
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #154 on: October 15, 2011, 09:34:27 AM »

Do you believe that Jesus actually died?  Between the time when Jesus slumped on the cross letting out his last breath, and the Resurrection, were there only two Persons of the Trinity?

I don't know, because I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I am not God.

You never believed!  :'(

bwu ha ha ha ha....
Krady thinks "I don't know=I don't believe"
George thinks it is funny......


I think it is creepy here.
must be a new halloween costume for dumb and dumber.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7312
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #155 on: October 15, 2011, 09:37:10 AM »
Krady thinks "I don't know=I don't believe"
George thinks it is funny......


I think it is creepy here.
must be a new halloween costume for dumb and dumber.

I think it's funny because you used the exact same argument to claim that velkyn never believed, and you could not have been more wrong.  But you chose to act as if you had the answer, so much so, that you made your claim in a larger font, as if that gave it more weight.

Offline SERPENT KILLA

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Darwins +1/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • RESURRECTED SAINT
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #156 on: October 15, 2011, 09:43:46 AM »
I only said Velkyn never believed because she said so.

She said she never believed Christ died, that means she never believed the bible. But she keeps claiming she was a Christian.
Do you see where I am coming from?
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7312
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #157 on: October 15, 2011, 09:51:33 AM »
I only said Velkyn never believed because she said so.

She said she never believed Christ died, that means she never believed the bible. But she keeps claiming she was a Christian.
Do you see where I am coming from?

I do understand, but I think you misunderstood velkyn.  Velkyn was a Christian, as Christian as anyone else who claims to be Christian.  If one believes that Jesus is actually God, then it is very easy to conclude that nothing permanent ever happened to Jesus, the character in this story.  In other words, in the story, the death was more like sleep (I'm not speaking for velkyn). 

A good example would be this:  If I were told that I would have to endure a most horrific death, in order to save millions of people, and that within a few days I would be back to normal, I would do it.  Why wouldn't I?  In the end, most humans are actually willing to suffer for their loved ones, and even for strangers if the situation is dire enough.  We are compassionate animals.

Offline SERPENT KILLA

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Darwins +1/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • RESURRECTED SAINT
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #158 on: October 15, 2011, 10:28:43 AM »
If one believes that Jesus is actually God, then it is very easy to conclude that nothing permanent ever happened to Jesus, the character in this story.  In other words, in the story, the death was more like sleep (I'm not speaking for velkyn). 
George, when you have a chance. please ask other Christians, if one disbelieves Christ's death, can that person be considered a Christian?

One of the most important fundamentals of Christianity is "Christ died for our sins and resurrected in 3 days"

I am very interested to hear from you and Velkyn.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7312
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #159 on: October 15, 2011, 11:42:03 AM »
If one believes that Jesus is actually God, then it is very easy to conclude that nothing permanent ever happened to Jesus, the character in this story.  In other words, in the story, the death was more like sleep (I'm not speaking for velkyn). 
George, when you have a chance. please ask other Christians, if one disbelieves Christ's death, can that person be considered a Christian?

One of the most important fundamentals of Christianity is "Christ died for our sins and resurrected in 3 days"

I am very interested to hear from you and Velkyn.

Humans cannot come back to life, period, end of story.  So one of two things are possible:

1.  A man was crucified and died, and is now immortalized in scripture as a god, but he never came back to life.
2.  A god was made to look like it sacrificed itself, or it's only son (also a god according to Christians) for some reason, but certainly never died.

To create a human figure, call it god, and then attempt to make it appear that this human figure rose from the dead, is a powerful feature added for emphasis.  It makes gullible, ignorant humans fall in line - pretty much the same thing happens at magic shows, but the stakes are so low, everyone just wonders how it was done, as opposed to telling all of their friends that a magician made an elephant disappear on stage.

SERPENT KILLA, I know that you believe Jesus was the son of God, sent to sacrifice himself to save humanity.  But the reality is that no such thing actually happened.  It is a story, and a bad one.  It sets the stage for distinction between the gullible believers, and those who can clearly see it is all mythology.  In the "story", this human figure called Jesus, was killed by the Romans.  In this same story, this same human figure rises from the dead, and is seated at the right hand of God, yadda, yadda, etc., etc.  And ultimately, this was supposed to be God sacrificing his only son, for all of humanity's sins. 

If the mythology story were true, which you believe it is, then the death was like a mosquito bite to Jesus.  Annoying perhaps, but ultimately nothing to be concerned about.  In other words, the bodily death of Jesus Christ, as the story goes, never actually killed him.  do you understand?  It's the humans who believe the story is true that are projecting their beliefs as though this death were as real as the death of an actual loved one, and that it matters.

Anyway, I'm sure you won't agree, so we can drop this line of argument, as it ultimately does nothing to support an actual god being real.

Offline Ambassador Pony

  • You keep what you kill.
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 6858
  • Darwins +71/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • illuminatus
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #160 on: October 15, 2011, 01:27:17 PM »
Krady thinks "I don't know=I don't believe"
George thinks it is funny......


I think it is creepy here.
must be a new halloween costume for dumb and dumber.

KCrady said a lot of other things before that. Do you intend to respond to him, or pretend his post never happened?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1350
  • Darwins +454/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #161 on: October 15, 2011, 02:52:28 PM »
That is not even close to an answer to the question he asked you.  Not even close.  You are saying God gets angry because his sovereignty is absolute.  WTF does that have to do with anything?  That's only proving the overlords point.  If his sovereignty is absolute, and God predestines all things, then there is nothing to be mad about.

there must be something, ask God.

OK.  This is what he told me:

"My child, you cannot possibly understand the agony of what it is to be Me.  Because I am metaphysically perfect, it is impossible for Me to strive to improve Myself.  Because I am omnipotent and omniscient, I can never strive...for anything.  Nothing, at all, can be a challenge for Me.  No matter what I might endeavor to create, no matter what I might do, I can never have the sense of accomplishment you mortals are capable of, for all things are, by definition, as easy as thought, for Me.

"Yet despite My limitless power, there are still things I cannot do, because of the logical implications of My metaphysical nature.  I cannot create for Myself an equal, much less a superior whom I could admire.  There cannot be two or more omnipotent Beings, because their omnipotences could come into conflict if their intentions diverged, and this would render neither of them omnipotent.  Thus, omnipotence can only be compatible with a single Will.

"I cannot even create a lesser being who is truly distinct from Me.  Such a being would, by definition, circumscribe My power, for it would have a degree of initiative and power of its own that was not a mere extension or manifestation of Mine.  However tiny that being may be, however limited its range of choices, within that little sphere, My Will would not be supreme.  Then, I would no longer be omnipotent.  If that being had a capacity for choice, and multiple, genuine options, then I could neither have foreseen, nor predestined its path in life.  Then, I would no longer be omniscient.

"But these are My metaphysical nature.  Apart from them I would not be God.  Since as a matter of logic, I cannot be God and non-God at the same time and in the same respect (and for Me there is only one "time"--all of it--and one respect--all of it--that I can Be), it is inherently, metaphysically impossible for Me to 'tie my omnipotence and omniscience behind my back' as it were, and give any other entity freedom to be something other than an extension of My Will.

"You ask me then, why create at all?  I must, by My nature.  You see, power is no power at all, if it is never made manifest.  Since unlimited power is My nature, I must manifest it through the act of Creation and rule.  Both 'Creation' and 'rule' require that there be entities distinct from Myself.  Anything that is a mere figment of My Will is not a Creation, because a new Creation must, by definition, exist in addition to whatever existed in its absence.  Since My Will is eternally pre-existent, a true Creation must be something other than My Will.  In like manner, I cannot rule, nor can I receive worship, if there is no one else to obey My Will and offer Me their worship and praise.  Yet, as I have already explained to you, My omnipotence and omniscience leave no possible room for anyone else--other--separate--independent--from Me to exist.

"So you see, the flawed Creation you inhabit is the inescapable, miserable result of the inherent contradictions of My nature as God.  I am compelled by My nature to attempt what is metaphysically impossible for Me.  But that is only the beginning of sorrows.  This requirement of sovereign rule, which arises as a logical corollary of omnipotence, foists upon Me another curse: an infinity of what you might call 'status,' or 'glory' or 'majesty.'  I have no greater weakness, no more agonizing wound, than this.

"Since My degree of status is infinite, and any other being I might attempt to create must be finite, My status is necessarily infinitely greater than that of any Creation I might attempt to make.  This, in turn, means that there can be no true relationship or communication between Myself and a created being.  Communication is only possible between equals.  If one person in a relationship has immeasurably greater status than the other, the inferior must either rebel, or relate to the superior with obsequious submission and obeisance.  If they opt for the former, then their goal is to defeat or escape the superior, not forge a relationship.  If they opt for the latter, then they are compelled to relate to the superior not with honesty, but with what they anticipate the superior wishes to hear. 

"Thus they will attempt to erase their own mind to some degree, and turn it into an echo of the superior's mind--to think what the superior wants them to think and do what the superior wants them to do.  For an example of this, you need look no further than My Cherubim, they who are gathered closest to My Throne, as described in the fourth chapter of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.  They are described metaphorically as being "covered with eyes."  That is, possessed of wondrous and splendid faculties of perception and intellect.  This very fact, and their proximity to My majesty, forces them to empty themselves so completely that they are reduced to a constant chant of praise for Me, 'Holy Holy Holy is the Lord Who was and is and is to come,' over and over and over again, continuously, forever.  Marvelous, brilliant beings, reduced to mindless 'broken records'...by Me, by the simple fact of My existence.

"For if one of them were to say, 'No, I have done this long enough, I think I should like to go on a holiday,' then in that moment it is valuing the holiday more than it values Me.  Because My status, My value, is infinite, this would be an inversion of value, an injustice.  In a word...sin.  Now, the severity of a crime or an affront rises with the status of the victim.  It is a more serious matter to strike a police officer than to strike an ordinary person, and more serious still to strike a President or a king.  Because My status is infinite, any affront to Me is an infinite affront, requiring an infinite punishment.

"A finite being, by definition, cannot ever absorb an infinite punishment (for its capacities for absorption are necessarily finite), so its punishment must go on, and on, and on.  Yet, at any actual point in their punishment, the affront, the wound they inflicted upon Me is still the greater.  If it were not so, the scales would be balanced and punishment could cease.

"As I have explained already, any true Creation, to qualify as such, must necessarily be other-than-Me.  An omnipotent Creative power being only potential rather than actual unless it is manifested in an act of Creation, I must create beings that are other-than-Me.  Yet...to...to be other-than-Me a being must...value its own otherness more...than it values conformity to My Will and My thoughts.  To exist at all, it must...sin. 

"The word for 'sin' used in the New Testament Scriptures I have given you is hamartia, an archer's term for "missing the mark."  The mark a being must miss in order to sin is Me.  But if it does not miss the mark, if it truly achieves what John the Baptist sought to do in relation to Me in Christ--'He must become greater, and I must become less'--it must cease to exist as an entity in its own right and separate from Myself.  Its conformity to My Will, its 'becoming-less,' must be as infinite as the gulf of status between us.  It must, in short, undo My work of Creation and empty its being into Me.

"Do you see now, the torturing chain that binds Me?  To be God, by definition, requires omnipotence.  Omnipotence requires Creative manifestation.  'Creation' is bringing into existence entities separate from Myself.  Separation from Myself is sin.  Sin inflicts an infinite wound upon My infinite status and dignity, requiring an infinite punishment, which can never be satisfied in finite beings.  No matter how much pain I might inflict for however many eons, the pain inflicted upon Me is infinitely worse, otherwise the torture could stop, and I could be at peace.  And further: the absolute sovereignty My omnipotence and omniscience require by definition means that every sin by every created being must also emerge from the eternal councils of My Sovereign Will.  These beings cannot be truly distinct from Me, for I am the Ground of All Being. 

"And so, My fate, imposed upon Me by My infinite nature, may it be forever cursed, is to torture Myself forever, to the full extent of My infinite ability.  Why am I angry?  Because it is My nature.  At whom am I angry?  There is no one else to rage against, but Me."

So, SerpentKilla...there you have it, I guess.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1350
  • Darwins +454/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #162 on: October 15, 2011, 03:26:21 PM »
Krady thinks "I don't know=I don't believe"

Why, yes.  If it were not so, agnostics would go to Heaven.

I only said Velkyn never believed because she said so.

She said she never believed Christ died, that means she never believed the bible. But she keeps claiming she was a Christian.
Do you see where I am coming from?

And you said you don't know if Christ died.  That means you never believed (your interpretation of) the Bible.  And for that matter, Velkyn's disbelief in a genuine "death" for Christ has Biblical warrant:

Quote
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits...

--I Peter 3:19 (bold emphasis added)

Quote
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:

   “When he ascended on high,
   he took many captives
   and gave gifts to his people.”

What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[1]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.

--Ephesians 4:7-9
 1. Or the depths of the earth (Footnote in original NIV.  Source.)

In other words, Jesus didn't actually die, he just went through a change of state from flesh to spirit and continued his activities, making "proclamation" to spirits and taking many captives (presumably these same spirits). 

So, either Velkyn's interpretation (that Christ didn't really die, only change state) is correct, and she really did believe the Real True Christianitytm or her interpretation is wrong, and she did not really believe the Real True Christianitytm.  Either way, since you profess not to know...

You never believed!  :'(

Edit: nitpicky grammar stuff.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 03:48:23 PM by kcrady »
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline SERPENT KILLA

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 73
  • Darwins +1/-21
  • Gender: Male
  • RESURRECTED SAINT
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #163 on: October 15, 2011, 04:22:43 PM »
Wow! Kcrady! get outta here. ;)

In other words, Jesus didn't actually die, he just went through a change of state from flesh to spirit and continued his activities, making "proclamation" to spirits and taking many captives (presumably these same spirits).
I am changing my gospel message "Christ went through a change of state from flesh to spirit on the cross for our sin, so whoever believes.......snip" because some Krazy, Kcrady atheist guy told me so.

wait.... then it means I will never die, I am just going to change state of flesh to spirit.
Hallelluah!  Kcrady you are genius!
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #164 on: October 15, 2011, 04:33:45 PM »
Kcrady you are genius!

Hey!  You finally got something right!  (Well, you know what they say about monkeys and typewriters...)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #165 on: October 15, 2011, 04:44:50 PM »
Wow! Kcrady! get outta here. ;)

In other words, Jesus didn't actually die, he just went through a change of state from flesh to spirit and continued his activities, making "proclamation" to spirits and taking many captives (presumably these same spirits).
I am changing my gospel message "Christ went through a change of state from flesh to spirit on the cross for our sin, so whoever believes.......snip" because some Krazy, Kcrady atheist guy told me so.

wait.... then it means I will never die, I am just going to change state of flesh to spirit.
Hallelluah!  Kcrady you are genius!

I said this stuff would go over his head. Can I call it or what?
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5380
  • Darwins +152/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #166 on: October 15, 2011, 06:36:20 PM »
.....get outta dodge,  and use it, ...........and hope that nobody notices.

Too overwhelmed to even attempt to address subject matter, do I sense preparations for yet another ignominious run away run away?


Quote from: kcrady
"The word for 'sin' used in the New Testament Scriptures I have given you is hamartia, an archer's term for "missing the mark."  The mark a being must miss in order to sin is Me.

...........most aptly known as the bull.



 



elsewhere it's  more evidence god's voodoo doll self worshipping affixation. ;)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 06:38:12 PM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6755
  • Darwins +818/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #167 on: October 15, 2011, 07:50:21 PM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?

The guy said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" like it was a big surprise or something. Yet it was a requirement for the christian story to work. He, or his dad (talk about someone with father issues!) planned the whole thing, yet we're supposed to be impressed with the "sacrifice", which was in essence a three day nap. I've no doubt that terror suspects "rendered" to third world countries for interrogation have been through a lot worse than the kid, yet his semi-death is supposed to be impressive.

The story doesn't work on any level, unless you're someone who wants to feel real important, and need to know someone died for you, because you're worth it. I guess. Even in my little kid sort of christian days I never swallowed that story, so this is all just theory. Oops, I'm not supposed to use that word around the fragile ones, am I.

My bad.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7312
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #168 on: October 15, 2011, 09:39:24 PM »
PP - missing your wit and wiseness!  Welcome back?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2700
  • Darwins +78/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #169 on: October 15, 2011, 10:41:26 PM »
Just had a thought...I have had drinks so this may not be exactly what I mean to say but here goes.

I'll start with a simple yes or no question.

Are humans perfect? I imagine the answer from theists and atheists alike to be, no.

Is this agreed?
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2765
  • Darwins +223/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #170 on: October 15, 2011, 10:56:25 PM »
I said this stuff would go over his head. Can I call it or what?

There is a pink venus sign next to its gender.


Sin inflicts an infinite wound upon My infinite status and dignity, requiring an infinite punishment, which can never be satisfied in finite beings.  No matter how much pain I might inflict for however many eons, the pain inflicted upon Me is infinitely worse, otherwise the torture could stop, and I could be at peace.  And further: the absolute sovereignty My omnipotence and omniscience require by definition means that every sin by every created being must also emerge from the eternal councils of My Sovereign Will.  These beings cannot be truly distinct from Me, for I am the Ground of All Being. 


Why doesn't God just kill us all, if we are that painful?


The idea that an omnipotent God needs to sacrifice an immortal part of himself, in order to free imperfect beings, that he himself deliberately created imperfect, from a hell he has total control over, and he can't do it by putting a sign in the sky, seems a little implausible.

I wrote that in big letters, so it would fill more space, since there is no way I'm going to type as much as KCrady.

Are humans perfect? I imagine the answer from theists and atheists alike to be, no.


Perfect is a word that doesn't mean anything.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2011, 11:07:19 PM by Add Homonym »
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6215
  • Darwins +411/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #171 on: October 16, 2011, 07:06:38 AM »
Nothing to say to me SK?  Easier to respond to strawmen and red herrings, I guess.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline onesteward

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 834
  • Darwins +3/-7
  • Gender: Male
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #172 on: October 16, 2011, 11:11:39 AM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7312
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #173 on: October 16, 2011, 11:25:19 AM »
This "dying" for our sins stuff is so strange. Especially given that many christians say he is coming back. Which means he's not very good at dying. So why should we be impressed by any of his other skill sets?
 
   We believe He is coming back because He is so good at another skill set: Resurrection.

If he was even real, he is long dead, and will not be returning.  It's actually embarrasing to know that modern humans like yourself still believe this nonsense.  And the main reason it's embarrassing, is because the entire idea comes from people who had no idea they were living on a planet circling the sun.  They were extremely ignorant about the world around them, yet people today seem to think they had the edge on some doofus being killed by the Romans as a common criminal, and then coming back to life!  Great fiction, I suppose, but real?  Seriously?

P.S. Yes, I called Jesus a doofus, but I'm sure he would be laughing himself if he had any idea what you people are doing in his name.  Assuming he was a real person.