Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 22397 times)

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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #116 on: October 12, 2011, 06:17:17 PM »
@Omen, when you say "your CAT", then you use YOUR.

when you say "you are an idiot!", then you use YOU ARE or YOU'RE.

I am sorry if OS's statement was offensive.
But he was just asking Velkyn whether, there was a change before and after her salvation.
He never said anything about someone being happy or unhappy.

@Onesteward, check this one out.

2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
He didn't die, that’s the problem.  I had no caring about a god that sacrificed itself to itself.  I found no sadness in this at all since there was no true loss. It seemed that it simply had to be done that way, like any magic spell. When I was losing my faith, I wondered about the point of this and the fairness of it.  However, since he really didn't die, something that even me as a child could understand, it didn't bother me.   



She never believed. :'(
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline Omen

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #117 on: October 12, 2011, 06:28:41 PM »
I am sorry if OS's statement was offensive.

Not relevant.

No offense was claimed and it would not be relevant to the disagreement of a claim.  It is instead inserted by you as some kind of idiotic character attack, that you seem to believe is relevant for some reason.

Quote
But he was just asking Velkyn whether, there was a change before and after her salvation.
He never said anything about someone being happy or unhappy.

Also not relevant.

Its the only implication to be drawn from the imposed dichotomy, not to mention its the stereotypical christian 'conversion' story.  The dichotomy is between saved vs not saved, not inserting what it means is just a necessary problem of using a fallacy ( special pleading ) as an answer and allows others to point out the bizarre logical implications of the claim.  One's post begs the obvious question that as an explanation it doesn't answer because it was never meant to answer anything at all.  One has to presuppose a bizarre contingency of premises that he will not acknowledge are baseless or rationally argue for, there HAS to be an objective difference between people who were not christians and become christians.  He can't allow the possibility for them to go the other direction.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #118 on: October 12, 2011, 08:38:08 PM »
@Onesteward, check this one out.

2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
He didn't die, that’s the problem.  I had no caring about a god that sacrificed itself to itself.  I found no sadness in this at all since there was no true loss. It seemed that it simply had to be done that way, like any magic spell. When I was losing my faith, I wondered about the point of this and the fairness of it.  However, since he really didn't die, something that even me as a child could understand, it didn't bother me.   



She never believed. :'(

Do you believe that Jesus actually died?  Between the time when Jesus slumped on the cross letting out his last breath, and the Resurrection, were there only two Persons of the Trinity?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2011, 12:02:04 AM »
@Onesteward, check this one out.

2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
He didn't die, that’s the problem.  I had no caring about a god that sacrificed itself to itself.  I found no sadness in this at all since there was no true loss. It seemed that it simply had to be done that way, like any magic spell. When I was losing my faith, I wondered about the point of this and the fairness of it.  However, since he really didn't die, something that even me as a child could understand, it didn't bother me.   



She never believed. :'(

Do you believe that Jesus actually died?  Between the time when Jesus slumped on the cross letting out his last breath, and the Resurrection, were there only two Persons of the Trinity?
That blows my FUCKING mind+1
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2011, 06:12:24 AM »
@Omen, when you say "your CAT", then you use YOUR.

when you say "you are an idiot!", then you use YOU ARE or YOU'RE.

I am sorry if OS's statement was offensive.
But he was just asking Velkyn whether, there was a change before and after her salvation.....
Hello SK - glad to see you're still with us.

When you start a sentence, remember to use a leading capital.
Try to avoid superfluous commas.
Above all, when criticising the grammar and punctuation of another, make sure you are beyond reproach in the post where you do it......   ;D

Anyhoo....any chance you considering an answer to my question?

Why would an all-powerful god of goodness and love ever find itself in a situation where "excuses" would need to be made for it?  Its goodness and love and rightness would be self-evident, surely?  One only needs to offer excuses or explanations where something either isn't really what it claims to be, or where it is what it claims to be but had made a spectacularly poor job at making that clear.

I'm also intrigued as to why you are "siding" with onesteward in his debate with Velkyn?  Onesteward seems to be of the opinion that one can choose whether to come to belief or not - whereas YOUR position is that it is entirely up to Yahweh:
So, in order to believe in God.
Like I said earlier, God chooses us, not we do.

But I think what concerns me more is your evident sorrow at discovering that Velkyn had never had Yahweh's grace bestowed on her:
She never believed. :'(
You seem genuinely upset about this - but surely you should be directing your comments at your god?  The god that YOU believe is the only one who decides who does - or does not - come to belief?  If Velkyn does not - DID not - ever believe, then that is entirely down to your god, from what you have said in this thread.

How does that make you feel - that your loving god has excluded Velkyn from his grace now and forever, no matter how hard she tries or wishes to obtain it?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2011, 08:32:05 AM »
"It was a Tuesday evening and I sat down and felt this shot of spiritual morphine, just absolute bliss and joy," she said in an interview today."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/oct/24/lauren-booth-converts-to-islam


I read this article, hoping to find some in-depth conversion experiences to Islam. But most of the women seem to think that Islam delivers them from parties. NEWSFLESH: you do not have to join the Islam cult to avoid parties. Simply hanging around on atheist forums will suffice.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1324039/Like-Lauren-Booth-ARE-modern-British-career-women-converting-Islam.html
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2011, 08:33:56 AM »
Oh, and the important thing is for it to be Tuesday. Allah only comes to you on a Tuesday.
I strive for clarity, but aim for confusion.

Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2011, 09:25:40 AM »
I am sorry if OS's statement was offensive.
But he was just asking Velkyn whether, there was a change before and after her salvation.
He never said anything about someone being happy or unhappy.

@Onesteward, check this one out.

2)what was your first reaction when you heard son of god died for you? how did it feel?
He didn't die, that’s the problem.  I had no caring about a god that sacrificed itself to itself.  I found no sadness in this at all since there was no true loss. It seemed that it simply had to be done that way, like any magic spell. When I was losing my faith, I wondered about the point of this and the fairness of it.  However, since he really didn't die, something that even me as a child could understand, it didn't bother me.   
She never believed. :'(

oooh, big letters!  Sorry, SK, but that doesn't magically make it more true. I was a Christian, and stamping your feet using 14 point letters and crocodile tears is quite ridiculous.  You are still bearing false witness. It's rather cute to see such TrueChristians deciding who are the real Christians and who are not.  Also, please do answer Anfauglir's questions.  You make claims, then you are expected to support them. 

I do wonder how you'd both fare in the competition that Elijah set up to determine who has the real god.  I would meet both of you anywhere you'd like (continental US please since things get so expensive overseas) to proctor this challenge, and I am quite dead serious about this.  I want to see how you TrueChristians do in showing me how real you are using biblical standards.  We can do the altar and then we can find a VA hospital so you can do healing, or how about going to a English as a second language course and you can demonstrate you ability to speak in tongues there?  I'm sure we can come up with various other venues for you to demonstrate the powers that all followers of Christ get.     
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #124 on: October 13, 2011, 12:51:52 PM »
You are still bearing false witness
I have never said anything about TrueChristian to anybody anyway.
You would need to come up with an evidence on this one, otherwise it is a false accusation.

He didn't die, that’s the problem.
I just wanted point out that there is no non-beleiving believer. It's illogical.
It's like saying "I believe in God, but there is no God"

Now that's the problem.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #125 on: October 13, 2011, 01:26:15 PM »
You are still bearing false witness
I have never said anything about TrueChristian to anybody anyway.
You would need to come up with an evidence on this one, otherwise it is a false accusation.
  You accused me of not being a Christian, SK.  Therefore, you think you know what a Christian is.  In that you call yourself a Christian, this means that you think that you are a TrueChristian, and that those who do not live up to your standards aren't.  You don't have to say the words TrueChristian to mean exactly that when you claim that anyone who doesn't match your personal description of a TrueChristian isn't a Christian at all.  It's just a shorthand term to express the usual Christian sentiment here on the forum. 

He didn't die, that’s the problem.
Quote
I just wanted point out that there is no non-beleiving believer. It's illogical.
It's like saying "I believe in God, but there is no God"  Now that's the problem.

No, it isn’t since there was no death involved.  You want to declare that since I didn’t feel bad about JC dying for me, that means I’m not a TrueChristian.  Unfortunately for you, that’s not how Christianity is defined, by feeling bad if some god decided that sacrificing itself to itself is the only way to be saved.  There are a lot of definitions of Christian but this one is all yours, made up totally by you.  Now, most Christains would accept that one of the best definitions seems to be a person who accepts Jesus Christ as savior and redeemer for all sins. 

You have created your own definition so you can feel good about yourself, SK.  Unfortunately, you need to believe that no one could possibly have been a Christian like you and then come to the realization that the story makes no sense and is not real.  It’s just as baseless as Islam, Hinduism, Wicca, etc.  It appears that threatens your belief that you are “right”, that you know the secret of the universe and that you will get magic presents from this god.  If someone was a believer and then now doubts and is an atheist or agnostic, and can show the reasons for it, then you might not be so special and it seems that you cannot stand that. 

You have all of your self-worth built into this religion.  That’s a pity but not suprising in the least.  We have millions of theists, Christians, Muslims, Hindu, etc, that cannot bear to think that they could be wrong.  Some of them kill over it.  And they all have no evidence that any of their claims are true.  I’ve yet to see that you are anything special, SK.  You can’t do any of the things promised by JC.  No miracles like JC and more coming from you or any other Christian.  When I was a Christian, I didn’t really wonder about this since I knew plenty of Christains and none of them could do that either.  I just figured that I must not be understanding something.  Then I read the bible, which made me question.  Then I looked into things more and more, reading other religions’ holy books, reading myths, and finally coming to the unpleasant conclusion that people whom I had reason to trust, parents, friends, etc, were not telling me the truth.  They didn’t know their bible at all.  They accepted what others told them and didn’t actually look into it.  They all were *sure* that they were good Christians, just like you, and none of them could fulfill what was promised.   They all didn’t like those “other” Christians because they didn’t believe in the same way.   It’s just like you when you try to say “but velkyn was never a Christian”.  As far as I can tell, you aren’t one right now, not if I’m to believe the bible.  If you think you are, please do demonstrate how we should know this to be the case and say, not Fred Phelps, or Mitt Romney, or Rick Perry.   
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Offline Historicity

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #126 on: October 13, 2011, 02:28:37 PM »
You are still bearing false witness
I have never said anything about TrueChristian to anybody anyway.
It seems to me that Serpent Killa thought there was some member with the ID TrueChristian.


Offline kcrady

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #127 on: October 13, 2011, 03:51:02 PM »
SerpentKilla, I understand that you're outnumbered here and all.  However, I would be very interested to see your answer to some questions I've asked in this thread:

SK, a quick question for you: If Yahweh predestines all things according to his will, and his sovereignty is absolute, what does he have to be angry about?  Whence cometh his wrath?  Anger, wrath, and outrage are emotional responses that occur when things don't go one's way, or a response to what one perceives as wrongness.  However, since, in your theology, there can be no "rebellion" against Yahweh that he himself did not foreordain before the foundation of the world in accordance with the councils of his own incontestable sovereign will, there is no sense in which he has not had things exactly as he desired.  In the absence of any volition but his own, what is he mad at?  Himself?  Is he play-acting?

Do you believe that Jesus actually died?  Between the time when Jesus slumped on the cross letting out his last breath, and the Resurrection, were there only two Persons of the Trinity?
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Offline SERPENT KILLA

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #128 on: October 13, 2011, 05:06:28 PM »
KCRADY,
I am working 14hrs today.
I will do my best to answer you ASAP.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #129 on: October 13, 2011, 05:13:07 PM »
SK,why not be like Jesus and not work at all?
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Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #130 on: October 13, 2011, 06:27:16 PM »
I answer as much as I can.
I have certain time constraints Velkyn.I only access this forum while at work and while doing other things here as well.Take today for instance, I have a "tee time" for this afternoon so this will be it for me today.Golf season is on the wane so I'm taking advantage of the time I have left to play.Not to mention that "The "Rapture could take place and I might never get to Golf again."
 Velkyn it seems to me after talking to virtually everyone I know who 'got saved'  that the change would be noticeable to you.Nothing? You were exactly the same before and after?

I know you have time constraints.  I am not asking for an immediate answer, though I note that you can take the time for an excuse but you can’t simply answer questions.
  An excuse = 30 seconds.Answering some of your questions = not quite the same time frame.
Quote
  I ask those questions because it will narrow down what you do and don't beleive, something germaine to this discussion.  I try to make most questions answerable by a yes or no.  Those that ask for more require you to explain how we know who the true Christians are or how calling for a destruction of a whole town is the same as lighting an altar.  Again, something germaine to the discussion.


 As best I am able I'd be happy to tell you what I believe."Yes" or "No" is not adequate to answer more of your questions than even you might  think.I don't want that to be a tangent though.As far as the calling down fire onto an altar...I think the original incident was for a different reason than we should want to see it happen.For me it goes immediately to "seeking a sign" and that doesn't work as you probably already know.Wasn't the fire  to consume a sacrifice in the Elijah story?
Quote
And no, there was nothing.  Again, onesteward, you seem to be looking for any reason to claim that I was not "born again" and that you have a way of determining who are TrueChristians and who are not.

That is incorrect Velkyn.I'm hoping for any reason to think that you were.I can easily relate to backsliding...not at all to atheism.Therefore, I can understand you leaving the "Church"and the multitude of reasons people do....I have friends and family who have.I've learned to leave judgement to Christ, He is qualified to do it .I do understand that we are to "judge" righteously which is a completely different thing.I'm guessing you understand that without the lengthy word study and all.
Quote
  We don't all have dramatic stories on how were were converted from a life of sin and degradation and all of the sudden needed to read the bible, or in some other way declare our piousness on street corners.

 I never claimed that everyone  had to.I read the Bible ,got saved, and developed an intense appetite for The Word.The streetcorner thing is just a way of defining a hypocrite...a "Pharisee". That was meant that way?
Quote
  Now, I put to you that I can explain the reason why “virtually everyone” you know who got saved said that they had some major change. It’s because they knew you expected something of them.  They didn’t want to be left out and admit that nothing happened.  If they did that, you might assume, as you appear to be doing now, that they didn’t “really” get saved and they weren’t a real Christian.  It’s the desire to be accepted as important and to keep within the herd.  I don’t have that hanging over me any more so I am telling you the truth about my self and my experience. 

 Good Night!! You're not serious about that psycho-babble are you?I have regular , run of the mill conversations with these people.I'm not even attending a church at this point.WWGHA is more suited to the herd description than any Christians I know.The people I know do not need approval for their Christianity...they are "born again"- God validates Himself in our lives. Others don't even really know me.Casual conversations for the most part.As for your experience Velkyn ,you said that part of your experience was "to repent".I find that most of the Christians I deal with at some point stop or at realize they should stop doing the things that were repented of.You wouldn't repent of something that you felt was ok would you? Part of the Christian walk involves grace here as well...enablement to accomplish something. That would be the change I guess I'm asking about.
Quote
 

Have fun golfing.  All I can do with a club is sent balls straight and then they take a right turn like they were some kind of UFO. ;D

I did .I had a blast..I love 'fall golf' in New England. One thing to remember with that golf shot Velkyn..."Fore!!!!".    : )


When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #131 on: October 13, 2011, 06:57:02 PM »
One Steward......what happens if that event you describe has a horrible outcome? Do you then become "born again"? or do you wait for the good  "radical"outcome?

 OS why do you ignore all the negative things the bible commands of you? What of the things that happen in a negative manner,that are NOT beneficial?

 Now go out and kill the ones who work the Sabbath,adulterer's,unruly children,non believers.........Remember it's God's work you are doing.

You have to be one of the lamest Christians on this board.

You  see Monkeys, that is a fine example of Christianity. You meant the bolded part as an insult and yet Scripture tells us that we are blessed when insulted for our faith.A "bad thing" is turned into a "good thing".
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Alzael

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #132 on: October 13, 2011, 07:07:43 PM »
A "bad thing" is turned into a "good thing".

Christianity does this with genocide, slavery, racism, and infanticide as well.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #133 on: October 13, 2011, 07:10:52 PM »
Velkyn it seems to me after talking to virtually everyone I know who 'got saved'  that the change would be noticeable to you.Nothing? You were exactly the same before and after?

You're implication, by default, is that all people who become christians were unhappy beforehand or that all people who are not christian are unhappy.

That's some pretty serious deranged dehumanization of everyone not like yourself.

 It certainly would be if it had actually occured anywhere except in your own mind.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #134 on: October 13, 2011, 07:18:23 PM »
A "bad thing" is turned into a "good thing".

Christianity does this with genocide, slavery, racism, and infanticide as well.

 Each topic of course a major discussion in itself requiring bringing in language ,culture , history,traditions (etc., etc.) and all the subsequent dueling experts in the respective fields.At this point I'm just trying to have a discussion with Velkyn .
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Alzael

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #135 on: October 13, 2011, 07:25:29 PM »
A "bad thing" is turned into a "good thing".

Christianity does this with genocide, slavery, racism, and infanticide as well.

 Each topic of course a major discussion in itself requiring bringing in language ,culture , history,traditions (etc., etc.) and all the subsequent dueling experts in the respective fields.At this point I'm just trying to have a discussion with Velkyn .

Wow. Monkeys right, that was impressively lame. Even as a wuss-out that was lame.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 07:28:08 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #136 on: October 13, 2011, 07:51:39 PM »
I am back.
It seems my fellow saints need my awesomeness.

Alz. bring me back, resuscitate me.

Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #137 on: October 13, 2011, 08:59:53 PM »
Onesteward and Killa,

The reason why we have to take the attestations of 'changed' Christians with a grain of salt, is that the symptoms of depression work that way. As Mother Teresa entered Calcutta, she obviously became depressed. Having pumped herself up using Spiritual Enthuso System, she then promptly lost it again, and fell into a deep pit.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1655720-3,00.html

This is something depressing that she wrote to her first confessor, after admitting that her feelings were so depressing that she could not utter them to a confessor.

Lord, my God, who am I that You should forsake me? The Child of your Love — and now become as the most hated one — the one — You have thrown away as unwanted — unloved. I call, I cling, I want — and there is no One to answer — no One on Whom I can cling — no, No One. — Alone ... Where is my Faith — even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness — My God — how painful is this unknown pain — I have no Faith — I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart — & make me suffer untold agony.

So many unanswered questions live within me afraid to uncover them — because of the blasphemy — If there be God — please forgive me — When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven — there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives & hurt my very soul. — I am told God loves me — and yet the reality of darkness & coldness & emptiness is so great that nothing touches my soul. Did I make a mistake in surrendering blindly to the Call of the Sacred Heart?


Her friends then tried to bouy her up again, suggesting that she look for other outward objective signs that God was real.

Périer may have missed the note of desperation. "God guides you, dear Mother," he answered avuncularly. "You are not so much in the dark as you think ... You have exterior facts enough to see that God blesses your work ... Feelings are not required and often may be misleading."

She replies

"The more I want him — the less I am wanted," she wrote Périer in 1955. A year later she sounded desolate: "Such deep longing for God — and ... repulsed — empty — no faith — no love — no zeal. — [The saving of] Souls holds no attraction — Heaven means nothing — pray for me please that I keep smiling at Him in spite of everything."


She went from confessor to confessor, like they were psychiatrists, using a special shorthand language for her desperation; referring to Jesus as "the Absent One".

If Mother Teresa was merely depressed, then why could God not cure her of that? Was she doing totally the wrong thing in her mission? She supposedly had exterior signs of success, which could have all been down to her publicity management skills, rather than God. Internally, she had no way of telling whether God was watching, and externally... obviously she wasn't convinced, either.

I have some skepticism that a middle class American can judge whether they have been saved by God, using criterion that they themselves have invented, based upon fuzzy feelings that originate in their own brain. Obviously, if an atheist admits that they don't feel Jesus, it's easy for you to 'know' that they are not saved. Very easy, somehow. But what do you do when a Christian has doubts? Do you make stuff up to support them, or tell them that they have not been saved. Are they just depressed?

The idea that one feels a warm fuzzy feeling when one is saved, caused Mother Teresa a world of pain. What if she were not surrounded by people telling her that they felt Jesus? What if she knew that it was normal to be clueless in Christ? But, instead, was tormented by smug people lying to her.

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #138 on: October 13, 2011, 10:08:47 PM »
A "bad thing" is turned into a "good thing".

Christianity does this with genocide, slavery, racism, and infanticide as well.

 Each topic of course a major discussion in itself requiring bringing in language ,culture , history,traditions (etc., etc.) and all the subsequent dueling experts in the respective fields.At this point I'm just trying to have a discussion with Velkyn .
how in the fuck do you have to bring in all those things when it is all endorsed by the bible?

 BTW why have Christians for the most part abandoned these cultural practices,,,like slavery,racism,genocide. These things are your God given right as a Christian.....the bible is clear as day on what is expected of YOU on such things.  They still try to eradicate muslims in large numbers,,,,but for some reason not the Jews,why? Why have they abandoned slavery it worked so well for them for centuries?
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #139 on: October 14, 2011, 09:52:17 AM »


As best I am able I'd be happy to tell you what I believe."Yes" or "No" is not adequate to answer more of your questions than even you might  think.I don't want that to be a tangent though.As far as the calling down fire onto an altar...I think the original incident was for a different reason than we should want to see it happen.For me it goes immediately to "seeking a sign" and that doesn't work as you probably already know.Wasn't the fire  to consume a sacrifice in the Elijah story?

onesteward, I dont’ care what you “think”.  You’ve read the story, yes?  What was the intention of Elijah and God?  What were they intending to accomplish with the competing sacrifices?  And yes, there were sacrifices. Let me guess, one more excuse that this was under other “laws” so it can’t be done now?  Oh and btw, answer those questions.
But let me show you what I think the intent was, quoting from your scripture
Quote
Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”    But the people said nothing.
 22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”
seems pretty obvious what the intent was, establishing who the real god was.  That’s what I’m asking you to do, onesteward.  Heck, we can ignore the bulls and altar.  How about some healing? You’re a Christian right, so per JC you can do miracles in his name. 
And yes, the usual excuse of a Christian who wants to claim that we are daring to “seek a sign”.  Funny how Thomas got a sign to aid his faith, and all JC said that you shouldn’t need it but gave him one anyway with no words how this was a bad thing to ask for..  Gideon got a sign, Elijah got a sign, God says directly to test him in the OT, etc.  Why is it that your god suddenly has decided that it can’t show signs according to his believers?  It seems that it’s awfully convenient that in the same age where God can’t get it up to do miracles that can be confirmed, no “signs” can be found either.  Suddenly, believers must say that “you have to only believe with faith”.
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That is incorrect Velkyn.I'm hoping for any reason to think that you were.I can easily relate to backsliding...not at all to atheism.Therefore, I can understand you leaving the "Church"and the multitude of reasons people do....I have friends and family who have.I've learned to leave judgement to Christ, He is qualified to do it .I do understand that we are to "judge" righteously which is a completely different thing.I'm guessing you understand that without the lengthy word study and all.
  LOL.  But by your own words, you don’t think I was.  And again with the attempts to claim that I’m just “backsliding”.  Sorry to disappoint you but no, I’m not.  I’m fully and happily an atheist. It’s also cute to see you trying to come up with any of the old tired Christian claims of why people become atheists.  It seems that in your mind, I simply can’t have made a rational decision based on facts, it has to be some old saw that “atheists are angry at god”, “atheists are rebels”, etc.  And gee, you now are claiming how humble you are, to leave the judgement to JC.  Funny how your actual actions show this to be a lie, with all of your insistence that I simply must have had to have a “noticeable change” to validate myself in *your* eyes.  I understand you quite well. You are just one more Christian who does one thing and says another. 
 
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I never claimed that everyone  had to.I read the Bible ,got saved, and developed an intense appetite for The Word.The streetcorner thing is just a way of defining a hypocrite...a "Pharisee". That was meant that way?
  No, but you sure implied it with your repeated questions “are you sure, are you sure?” &) , onesteward. I’m not an idiot, so please don’t treat me like one. You say that you are looking for any to think I was born again, and then you ask repeatedly for what you evidently think is the one sole means to determine if I’m telling the “truth” or not.  As for what I meant by “declaring our piousness on streetcorners”, I mean like here in this forum where Christian after Christian claims just how bad they were before their supposed conversion, and how they and only they have the right version of their religion. 

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  Now, I put to you that I can explain the reason why “virtually everyone” you know who got saved said that they had some major change. It’s because they knew you expected something of them.  They didn’t want to be left out and admit that nothing happened.  If they did that, you might assume, as you appear to be doing now, that they didn’t “really” get saved and they weren’t a real Christian.  It’s the desire to be accepted as important and to keep within the herd.  I don’t have that hanging over me any more so I am telling you the truth about my self and my experience. 

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Good Night!! You're not serious about that psycho-babble are you?I have regular , run of the mill conversations with these people.I'm not even attending a church at this point.WWGHA is more suited to the herd description than any Christians I know.The people I know do not need approval for their Christianity...they are "born again"- God validates Himself in our lives. Others don't even really know me.Casual conversations for the most part.As for your experience Velkyn ,you said that part of your experience was "to repent".I find that most of the Christians I deal with at some point stop or at realize they should stop doing the things that were repented of.You wouldn't repent of something that you felt was ok would you? Part of the Christian walk involves grace here as well...enablement to accomplish something. That would be the change I guess I'm asking about.


Ah, nice baseless claim and insult to me by calling my reasoning “psycho-babble” (just had to leave my quote before your insult). Prove me wrong, onesteward, rather than waving your hands in indignation and spouting baseless claims.  I also have regular run of the mill conversations with Christians and I have no reason to think that my explanation is quite valid.  You seem to acknowledge that people *do* indeed want to follow the herd.  You of course make a baseless claim about this forum and I am insulted by that rather pathetic little lie.  The people you, and I, know were raised in a culture where being Christian is seen favorably.  People unfortunately equate religion with being good and acceptable.  People have much to lose if they don’t join the herd and declare themselves just as religious as the next.  Many, if not all, need to claim that God validates himself in their lives because if they say “hey, I didn’t really feel anything” then someone like you will decide to judge them as not Christian enough. 

It’s even funnier with your protestations that you immediately go into how “Christians” should do this and such to be considered Christians by you.  It’s so cute to watch you try to convince yourself I was never a Christian by judging me against your own opinions.  Now you want to add “grace” and how I should have felt a certain way.  &)  You are ridiculous and such a hypocrite. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #140 on: October 14, 2011, 10:04:18 AM »
Velkyn......I think your signature says it all when it comes to this blockhead
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #141 on: October 14, 2011, 07:11:11 PM »
SK, a quick question for you: If Yahweh predestines all things according to his will, and his sovereignty is absolute, what does he have to be angry about?  Whence cometh his wrath?  Anger, wrath, and outrage are emotional responses that occur when things don't go one's way, or a response to what one perceives as wrongness.  However, since, in your theology, there can be no "rebellion" against Yahweh that he himself did not foreordain before the foundation of the world in accordance with the councils of his own incontestable sovereign will, there is no sense in which he has not had things exactly as he desired.  In the absence of any volition but his own, what is he mad at?  Himself?  Is he play-acting?
It is because God's sovereignty is absolute. In his divine perspective, past, present, and future don't matter.

I am going to make up a story based on the bible. Are you ready?
let's think of you as an omnipotent being, if you had 2 servants, A and B. they both are dying of cancer because of their smoking habit.
You already know 'A' is loyal and trust worthy and 'B' is going to have sex your wife and kill your son while you are gone.
You really don't want to lose your loyal servant 'A', so you send a messanger(Christian) and give him your magical power(gospel and faith) to heal his cancer(sin) because 'A' might not be perfect, but he is still half way descent, loyal and good.
And leave 'B' alone so 'B' will die of cancer eventually.
'B' might complain and say "Lord why am I dying and you are saving 'A'?
and the you might say "you are dying of cancer because you smoke and I am pissed off at you"
And servant 'B' will have no idea what you are talking about, because he doesn't know, he didn't do anything.

Of course there still remains questions like "why god made servant 'B' in the first place"
Or "why not 'all-loving-god' make 'B' loyal and save him"

But questions like those, I can not answer because I am not God.

Do you believe that Jesus actually died?  Between the time when Jesus slumped on the cross letting out his last breath, and the Resurrection, were there only two Persons of the Trinity?
I don't know, because I didn't see it, I wasn't there. I am not God.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #142 on: October 14, 2011, 07:27:09 PM »



onesteward, I dont’ care what you “think”.  You’ve read the story, yes?  What was the intention of Elijah and God?  What were they intending to accomplish with the competing sacrifices?  And yes, there were sacrifices. Let me guess, one more excuse that this was under other “laws” so it can’t be done now?  Oh and btw, answer those questions.
But let me show you what I think the intent was, quoting from your scripture  Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.”    But the people said nothing.
 22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the LORD’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The god who answers by fire—he is God.” seems pretty obvious what the intent was, establishing who the real god was.  That’s what I’m asking you to do, onesteward.

 
 God was going to produce evidence enough for backslidden Israel to choose to 'follow God".I' was under the impression you didn't believe in free will regarding following God.So if the stage is set for a reproduction of this miracle I'll have to assume the Christian would be "Elijah" here.Now which are you going to be? Backslidden Israel? The prophets of baal and asherah?In the story the backsliders owned up and returned to The God of Israel.However even though 850 false prophets saw the Fire from The Lord it doesn't seem that they repented.

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  Heck, we can ignore the bulls and altar.  How about some healing? You’re a Christian right, so per JC you can do miracles in his name. 
And yes, the usual excuse of a Christian who wants to claim that we are daring to “seek a sign”.  Funny how Thomas got a sign to aid his faith, and all JC said that you shouldn’t need it but gave him one anyway with no words how this was a bad thing to ask for..  Gideon got a sign, Elijah got a sign, God says directly to test him in the OT, etc.  Why is it that your god suddenly has decided that it can’t show signs according to his believers?  It seems that it’s awfully convenient that in the same age where God can’t get it up to do miracles that can be confirmed, no “signs” can be found either.  Suddenly, believers must say that “you have to only believe with faith”.

  Thomas got a sign ,The Israelites got a sign, Gideon and Elijah got signs.They didn't get Bibles though.We did and by virtue of that we got them( the  signs) as well.So who are you going to be? The False prophet? The sign won't do you any good...The backslider? in that case you already had enough evidence to believe once.To keep giving you signs seems superfluous.Of course the fake prophets might have thought - hey the fire might not be from God....has science confirmed it yet?



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That is incorrect Velkyn.I'm hoping for any reason to think that you were.I can easily relate to backsliding...not at all to atheism.Therefore, I can understand you leaving the "Church"and the multitude of reasons people do....I have friends and family who have.I've learned to leave judgement to Christ, He is qualified to do it .I do understand that we are to "judge" righteously which is a completely different thing.I'm guessing you understand that without the lengthy word study and all.
Quote
LOL.  But by your own words, you don’t think I was.  And again with the attempts to claim that I’m just “backsliding”.  Sorry to disappoint you but no, I’m not.  I’m fully and happily an atheist. It’s also cute to see you trying to come up with any of the old tired Christian claims of why people become atheists.  It seems that in your mind, I simply can’t have made a rational decision based on facts, it has to be some old saw that “atheists are angry at god”, “atheists are rebels”, etc.  And gee, you now are claiming how humble you are, to leave the judgement to JC.  Funny how your actual actions show this to be a lie, with all of your insistence that I simply must have had to have a “noticeable change” to validate myself in *your* eyes.  I understand you quite well. You are just one more Christian who does one thing and says another. 

  You make claims that I said things I didn't say,I mean thing I don't mean, make claims I didn't make or imply,read my mind what, do have some kind of 'magic decoder ring' ? Your take on what kind of Christian I am is your right of course.I will address the "repenting thing again though.If you repented  you must have repented of something.My question was, is ,at that point was there a change regarding that which you repented of? Simple question really.Actually based on your posts you don't understand me at all.

I will return to this post again to respond.I'm out of time tonite.




 
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline JeffPT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #143 on: October 14, 2011, 07:34:22 PM »
It is because God's sovereignty is absolute. In his divine perspective, past, present, and future don't matter.

That is not even close to an answer to the question he asked you.  Not even close.  You are saying God gets angry because his sovereignty is absolute.  WTF does that have to do with anything?  That's only proving the overlords point.  If his sovereignty is absolute, and God predestines all things, then there is nothing to be mad about. 

I am going to make up a story based on the bible.  let's think of you as an omnipotent being, if you had 2 servants, A and B. they both are dying of cancer because of their smoking habit.

A. If I am omnipotent, why do I need servants?  B.  If my servants (which I don't need) are dying of cancer, and I am omnipotent, I will cure the cancer.

You already know 'A' is loyal and trust worthy and 'B' is going to have sex your wife and kill your son while you are gone.

'while I'm gone"? Where am I going?  If I am omnipotent, I can be anywhere I want at any time I want, or even in as many places as I want at the same time. 

You really don't want to lose your loyal servant 'A', so you send a messanger(Christian) and give him your magical power(gospel and faith) to heal his cancer(sin) because 'A' might not be perfect, but he is still half way descent, loyal and good.

Why would servant A be loyal to me if he witnesses my complete indifference toward servant B's cancer, all the while knowing I am capable of fixing it?  Why not fix both servants cancer, have a discussion with servant B asking him not to have sex with the wife, and living happily ever after?   

And leave 'B' alone so 'B' will die of cancer eventually.

How nice of me. 

'B' might complain and say "Lord why am I dying and you are saving 'A'?
and the you might say "you are dying of cancer because you smoke and I am pissed off at you"

I would not.  Being pissed off at him does not mean he is deserving of death.  I would fix his cancer because I know nobody deserves to die from that shit. I wouldn't play favorites if I was omnipotent. What would be the point?  I'd be better than everybody.  I'd try to help everyone.  Make the world a better place, you know?  I'd smite cancer like the little bitch it is. 

Of course there still remains questions like "why god made servant 'B' in the first place"
Or "why not 'all-loving-god' make 'B' loyal and save him"

Right.

But questions like those, I can not answer because I am not God.

Don't feel bad.  God isn't even God.  This entire analogy is more akin to being some powerful tyrannical ruler in a far away kingdom.   It's a terrible analogy for an omnipotent being. But if you really think God is like this, then your God is not a nice guy at all.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #144 on: October 14, 2011, 08:15:50 PM »
That is not even close to an answer to the question he asked you.  Not even close.  You are saying God gets angry because his sovereignty is absolute.  WTF does that have to do with anything?  That's only proving the overlords point.  If his sovereignty is absolute, and God predestines all things, then there is nothing to be mad about.
there must be something, ask God.

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A. If I am omnipotent, why do I need servants?  B.  If my servants (which I don't need) are dying of cancer, and I am omnipotent, I will cure the cancer.
A. Because that is what he wants  B. Of course you will cure the cancer, but you ain't God.

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'while I'm gone"? Where am I going?  If I am omnipotent, I can be anywhere I want at any time I want, or even in as many places as I want at the same time.
Ask God

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Why would servant A be loyal to me if he witnesses my complete indifference toward servant B's cancer, all the while knowing I am capable of fixing it?  Why not fix both servants cancer, have a discussion with servant B asking him not to have sex with the wife, and living happily ever after?
I believe God tried it numerous times in OT, but they didn't listen.

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I would not.  Being pissed off at him does not mean he is deserving of death.  I would fix his cancer because I know nobody deserves to die from that shit. I wouldn't play favorites if I was omnipotent. What would be the point?  I'd be better than everybody.  I'd try to help everyone.  Make the world a better place, you know?  I'd smite cancer like the little bitch it is.
Of course you would smite cancer, but you ain't God.

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Don't feel bad.
I don't 

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But if you really think God is like this, then your God is not a nice guy at all.
God is not a nice guy to you, sorry.
HAVE A GOOD LIFE BECAUSE LIFE IS SHORT AND THERE IS NOTHING AFTER THAT.
IF THERE IS SOMETHING AFTER THAT, I AM NOT SORRY BECAUSE YOU DESERVE IT.