Author Topic: In order to believe in God.  (Read 23482 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #87 on: October 10, 2011, 11:10:32 PM »
Every statement you have just made is an incorrect generalisation. At least you admit you are making mistakes. There is a reason for this. The position you are arguing cannot be argued, except by those whom you say don't exist: I guarantee you, no Christian will say "I believe in God, because whole bible makes sense, virgin Mary, taliking snake and all.",

You just admitted that the bible makes no sense to you.

[4] Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
[5] These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[8] Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 11:18:41 PM by Add Homonym »
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #88 on: October 10, 2011, 11:16:29 PM »
BTW, Matthew 28 was appended/stuck onto the end of the gospel, by a later gentile proselyte. The previous verse is more likely what a hypothetical Jesus said.

Want to debate whether Jesus historically existed? That will be more fun. You do know that none of the atheists believe he existed, right?
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2011, 01:52:42 AM »
Shorter SerpentKilla: Yahweh is playing with dolls.  Or does he call us "action figures?"
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #90 on: October 11, 2011, 05:43:25 AM »
So, in order to believe in God.
Like I said earlier, God chooses us, not we do.
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit" (John 15:16)

So if god has to choose us, there is nothing we can do.  Thanks for clearing that up.

....but then everything else makes no sense.  If your god has to choose us, then what on earth is the point of Christians like you going round "spreading the word"?  If your god wants me, I will come to him without any effort on your part.  And if god doesn't want me, then no matter how much you preach, or how attentively I listen, I will still be damned.

So just what IS the point of you being here?  Are you saying that you and I between us can change your god's mind?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #91 on: October 11, 2011, 07:15:13 AM »
SK, a quick question for you: If Yahweh predestines all things according to his will, and his sovereignty is absolute, what does he have to be angry about?  Whence cometh his wrath?  Anger, wrath, and outrage are emotional responses that occur when things don't go one's way, or a response to what one perceives as wrongness.  However, since, in your theology, there can be no "rebellion" against Yahweh that he himself did not foreordain before the foundation of the world in accordance with the councils of his own incontestable sovereign will, there is no sense in which he has not had things exactly as he desired.  In the absence of any volition but his own, what is he mad at?  Himself?  Is he play-acting?   
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #92 on: October 11, 2011, 09:24:55 AM »
.....every time someone asks me questions about the bible, I make a same mistake and try to debate and come up with excuses for my God. my mistake. ;)

Hmmm.

Why would an all-powerful god of goodness and love ever find itself in a situation where "excuses" would need to be made for it?  Its goodness and love and rightness would be self-evident, surely?  One only needs to offer excuses or explanations where something either isn't really what it claims to be, or where it is what it claims to be but had made a spectacularly poor job at making that clear.  Either way, any good and loving god worthy of the name would never need someone to try to defend it - because no opposition or challenge could even be framed in the first place.

I'm also intrigued as to how its possible for you to "make a same mistake and try to debate"?  Not only because you've said that everything that happens is decided by your god - so not only did HE decide that you would make the mistake (and so its not your fault), but HE decided that he would cause you to try to explain something to us when he knows already that the explanation would be useless to us because he has already decided NOT to choose us.  Bizarre behaviour, particularly for an all-loving, all-good supreme being.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline kin hell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #93 on: October 11, 2011, 10:04:43 AM »
Shorter SerpentKilla: Yahweh is playing with dolls.  Or does he call us "action figures?"

Voodoo dolls.

 After-all we are all created in his image .............................................(we are all individuals)

and he obviously needs punishment.
Why?

SK, a quick question for you: If Yahweh predestines all things according to his will, and his sovereignty is absolute, what does he have to be angry about?  Whence cometh his wrath?  Anger, wrath, and outrage are emotional responses that occur when things don't go one's way, or a response to what one perceives as wrongness.  However, since, in your theology, there can be no "rebellion" against Yahweh that he himself did not foreordain before the foundation of the world in accordance with the councils of his own incontestable sovereign will, there is no sense in which he has not had things exactly as he desired.  In the absence of any volition but his own, what is hehe is mad at?  Himself?  Is he play-acting?   
my bold/edit/strikethrough/etc

...he even tried it on himself (sick puppy) pinned to the cross wearing a crown of thorns accessory, and punctuated with the necessary hole for Thomas's doubt to fill.

Of course  the downside of any enthusiastic embrace of worldly servitude to this "prick"of a god is the resultant holier than thou inevitability.





otherwise kcrady  agreed.
This yahweh can only produce automata. We are god's imagination, batteries not included.

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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #94 on: October 11, 2011, 10:37:36 AM »
I think if Jesus says "Ye must be born again", that would be a good starting point.John 3 covers it.
Why it would be a great point, *if* Christians could agree on just what that means.  Again, can you tell me which one is the right one, onesteward?
Your definition seems to be a good one. According to the Presbyterian site I looked at they took salvation to be a "spiritual" event, obviously ministered by The Holy Spirit.Was that your understanding at the time of your conversion?
Yes, OS, it was.  And me saying you “punt” to the bible is in reference that you don’t actually tell me what you think it means, and go to a book that Christians can’t agree on what it means.  Yep, that’s the Presby way to interpret it.  Now, is this the interpretation of all Christians?  I don’t think so.  So how can we figure out the “real” answer?

Quote
Grace= unmerited favor  or there is  grace= enablement to accomplish something.I couldn't find any definition other than yours which defined it as a "whim".Again Velkyn--and I don't mean it in a bad way at all...you are just quoting from the Calvinists playbook.Perhaps you have issues with Calvin and not God.Jesus sent them out to preach. I'm sure there was a reason for it.
  Well, OS, do you know what a whim is? “a capricious or eccentric and often sudden idea or turn of the mind” (caprice: a : a sudden, impulsive, and seemingly unmotivated notion or action _  both thanks to Merriam-webster.com)  To give something to someone with no reason, aka “unmerited favor”. 

and here’s what MW said about grace
Quote
a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
  So, we have the bible saying that people are given grace yes?  And they do not merit any heavenly reward, right?  So we have your bible confirming what I said.  And that this god is giving this “grace” with no discernable reason to one but not another (Romans 9), we have a whim.  Thus, your claim “You would have to be omniscient to know if it makes or will make any difference.Jesus doesn't seem the wasteful type to me That would be your Calvinism showing.”  fails.  No I would not have to be omniscient at all to know that proselytizing would make any difference.  I just have to know that the *only* thing that gets one in good with god is this “grace”. So do you believe that only grace gets people into heaven/New Jerusalem?  Or not?  Is your bible telling the truth that only grace gets you in or not? 

Now, the bible does repeatedly contradict itself on this point, which only shows that no one knows what actually gets this favor from this god, no Christian does at all, they only have their favorite version: grace, works, belief, etc.  Same with the whole born again thing.  We have some that agree with my former religion, and those who don’t. Again, who is the right one?  You haven’t answered my questions on how we determine that, and I find that any Christian who wants to claim that I’m wrong on these things better be able to show that he’s the OneTrueChristian.  You also try to claim that “this has been done before” with my request about the altars and you failed with your claim since no it hasn’t been done evidently since Elijah himself did it (assuming that the bible has any relationship to reality).  Just flaming altars, OS, that’s all I’m asking for.  But all Christians ignore my request, or try to excuse themselves.  Your excused failed, OS. So now what?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #95 on: October 11, 2011, 10:48:52 AM »
You do know that none of the atheists believe he existed, right?

I wasn't aware that his non existance was a settled issue. Are you sure that there are no atheists anywhere who believe he existed? I only ask because I know a couple of agnostic theists and a few non religious types who believe that the character Jesus was real and did walk the earth but they don't credit this character with any sort of divinity.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #96 on: October 11, 2011, 11:05:10 AM »
You do know that none of the atheists believe he existed, right?

I wasn't aware that his non existance was a settled issue. Are you sure that there are no atheists anywhere who believe he existed? I only ask because I know a couple of agnostic theists and a few non religious types who believe that the character Jesus was real and did walk the earth but they don't credit this character with any sort of divinity.

From what I've seen, there are basically two viewpoints held by atheists: one is that he never existed at all, the other is that he was a preacher who was an ordinary human being.  I personally don't give the matter much thought.  Apart from the fact that there isn't much of a difference between those two views in a practical sense, the important matter is whether the gospels are historically accurate -- and we know that they aren't.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #97 on: October 11, 2011, 11:27:43 AM »
They deserve peoples' criticism when they try to force their beliefs onto others.
Sis, as far as I am concerned, no forcing, no pushing.
I was just delivering God's love letter to you. ;)

It goes like this "I love you, I would die for you, I want to be with you for eternity"

You left off the tail end there, slick.

"I love you, I would die for you[1], I want to be with you for eternity[2], but if you do not believe the goofy stories in my 2,000 year old Goatherder's Guide to the Universe, or the lunatic ramblings of my googly-eyed, bobble-headed followers, I will send you to a pit of fire and pain and anguish where you will suffer the most unspeakable agonies imaginable forever and ever, you filthy fucking maggot, because you are a damned creature, polluted with EVIL and BADNESS living on a doomed planet that I myself designed strictly with the intent of TORTURING THE s**t out of you and the people you love. NOW GROVEL, YOU DIM-WITTED SHEEP!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHA"

Hey Serpent Oil Salesman... Blow it right out your ass, you liar. That's the problem with you guys, you're like used car salesman. You run around blabbering this sacherinne ass, embarassingly cringe-worthy feel-good bullshit like <adopts soft, patronizing pedophile voice> "Oh, I just want to pass along the kindest most softest cuddliest big poofy fluff-balls of super special feelings and kitten-scented love letters that let you know how much you're wuved big huggy bunches by my super special imaginary fwiend!"

But you forget to mention the mass murder, rape, genocide, slavery, mysoginy, homophobia, and pedophelia. Why?

We know all about your big scary boogieman of a god, Jimmy Jam. You're either a child, or your religion has brain-damaged you to childlike levels of thinking if you really buy the s**t you're trying to sell us. It's damn near made you mentally handicapped if you think telling a grown ass adult that you want to pass along a "Super special love letter" from your imaginary friend will be at all convincing or compelling.

Gah, you are SUCH a creep, dude. 
 1. WOWWWW. Jinkies, what a guy! He'd DIE for me, huh? That shore is sumfin'!!! DERP. The character is IMMORTAL, you jackass. Him "DYING" for you means utterly NOTHING. Especially when they get to pop back to life and go on to allegedly RULE THE ENTIRITY OF THE UNIVERSE FROM THEIR GOLDEN THRONE OF FORESKINS AND BABY BONES. So why do you find this impressive or noteworthy? It's a completely hollow and trivial selling point. It's like saying "I'd be willing to throw an M&M right in the trash for you." 
 2. ]You know, if *I* were an all-powerful space wizard, and *I* "wanted" something? I'd make it happen. That's just me, call me crazy. Why is your god so impotent, that it can't get what it wants?  &)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 11:50:43 AM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #98 on: October 11, 2011, 11:31:02 AM »
You do know that none of the atheists believe he existed, right?

I wasn't aware that his non existance was a settled issue. Are you sure that there are no atheists anywhere who believe he existed? I only ask because I know a couple of agnostic theists and a few non religious types who believe that the character Jesus was real and did walk the earth but they don't credit this character with any sort of divinity.

From what I've seen, there are basically two viewpoints held by atheists: one is that he never existed at all, the other is that he was a preacher who was an ordinary human being.  I personally don't give the matter much thought.  Apart from the fact that there isn't much of a difference between those two views in a practical sense, the important matter is whether the gospels are historically accurate -- and we know that they aren't.

actually I have a bit of a third option. He is an amalgum of various Jewish heretic prechers of the time.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #99 on: October 11, 2011, 12:38:23 PM »
You do know that none of the atheists believe he existed, right?

I wasn't aware that his non existance was a settled issue. Are you sure that there are no atheists anywhere who believe he existed? I only ask because I know a couple of agnostic theists and a few non religious types who believe that the character Jesus was real and did walk the earth but they don't credit this character with any sort of divinity.

From what I've seen, there are basically two viewpoints held by atheists: one is that he never existed at all, the other is that he was a preacher who was an ordinary human being.  I personally don't give the matter much thought.  Apart from the fact that there isn't much of a difference between those two views in a practical sense, the important matter is whether the gospels are historically accurate -- and we know that they aren't.

actually I have a bit of a third option. He is an amalgum of various Jewish heretic prechers of the time.

Well, yeah but that sort of places squarly within the first option that Jesus did not specifically exist. Which, can't really be proven. Unless it has, to which I say...links please.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #100 on: October 11, 2011, 01:45:34 PM »

actually I have a bit of a third option. He is an amalgam of various Jewish heretic preachers of the time.

Well, yeah but that sort of places squarely within the first option that Jesus did not specifically exist. Which, can't really be proven. Unless it has, to which I say...links please.

No it isn't specifically proven...not by a longshot. I don't think it quite meets the first or second option. People generally don't pull shit like this from a hat, people tend to tell a story they heard and things get added, ever grander, even attached to the wrong person or thing. Anyone trying to do research on a historical object just a bit older than living memory can tell you this.

So if one name of a heretical teacher, Jeshua, starts to get traction...all the stories would start to use his name. Like how all stories about stern behavior tend to get assigned to the relative who was known for sternness. It is a rather wild theory, to be sure. But one that uses pretty common human behavior patterns.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #101 on: October 11, 2011, 04:42:34 PM »
So if one name of a heretical teacher, Jeshua, starts to get traction...all the stories would start to use his name. Like how all stories about stern behavior tend to get assigned to the relative who was known for sternness. It is a rather wild theory, to be sure. But one that uses pretty common human behavior patterns.

Like how Confucius has said many things apparently thousands of years after his death.

So what you are suggesting is that perhaps no specific person[1] as described in the bible existed, rather it was loosely based on the teachings of one or most likely a few people but the stories and parables grew to exaggerated proportions as they were passed along orally until finally when people decided to start writing about the accounts of this great wandering teacher he had been transformed into a god? I'll buy that. It's a rational explanation of how things likely could have transpired considering modern human behavior. To be honest, your theory is not too different than my own. I was never one to take the bible literally in the first place.

Sadly, the theory doesn't prove anything. I am forced to acknowledge that a single person who called himself Jesus is just as likely to have walked this earth teaching from the Torah as not.
 1. Jesus
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Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #102 on: October 11, 2011, 06:16:56 PM »
. According to the Presbyterian site I looked at they took salvation to be a "spiritual" event, obviously ministered by The Holy Spirit.Was that your understanding at the time of your conversion?
Yes, OS, it was.  And me saying you “punt” to the bible is in reference that you don’t actually tell me what you think it means, and go to a book that Christians can’t agree on what it means.  Yep, that’s the Presby way to interpret it.  Now, is this the interpretation of all Christians?  I don’t think so.  So how can we figure out the “real” answer?

 A spiritual event in your life that is so radical the Bible refers to it as being" born again".Was there any noticable change in you at that time? For me, I developed an intense "hunger" to read the Bible.I experienced a time when I felt everyone was going to want what I found- ( Surprise!!!)not so much.It was certainly a major life altering experience though.
 I do go to the Bible Velkyn, I think we should at least consider what it says and move from there to what it means.I think if I were to relate your own experience ( repentance ,accepting Jesus, and baptism) to all the Christian sites I've been to that there would be an huge consensus agreeing with that definition.One hundred % ....of course not.
Quote
  Well, OS, do you know what a whim is? “a capricious or eccentric and often sudden idea or turn of the mind” (caprice: a : a sudden, impulsive, and seemingly unmotivated notion or action _  both thanks to Merriam-webster.com)  To give something to someone with no reason, aka “unmerited favor”. 

There was a reason though.An all important one: For God so Loved the world.....Jn 3 :16. Planned before the World began.Scripturally at least it seems to be anything but a "whim".


Quote

and here’s what MW said about grace  a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace
Quote
  So, we have the bible saying that people are given grace yes?  And they do not merit any heavenly reward, right?  So we have your bible confirming what I said.  And that this god is giving this “grace” with no discernable reason to one but not another (Romans 9),

 Because you can't personally discern a reason doen't mean there isn't a good reason.Quite a few times in my Christian life things happened that seemed unreasonable;as a young Christian even to the point that I became a backslider.After a time though they all began to make sense and I could see they were beneficial in my life.I guess some things we will see at the end.


« Last Edit: October 11, 2011, 06:35:58 PM by onesteward »
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when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #103 on: October 11, 2011, 07:44:41 PM »
One Steward......what happens if that event you describe has a horrible outcome? Do you then become "born again"? or do you wait for the good  "radical"outcome?

 OS why do you ignore all the negative things the bible commands of you? What of the things that happen in a negative manner,that are NOT beneficial?

 Now go out and kill the ones who work the Sabbath,adulterer's,unruly children,non believers.........Remember it's God's work you are doing.

 You have to be one of the lamest Christians on this board.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #104 on: October 11, 2011, 08:31:35 PM »
So if one name of a heretical teacher, Jeshua, starts to get traction...all the stories would start to use his name. Like how all stories about stern behavior tend to get assigned to the relative who was known for sternness. It is a rather wild theory, to be sure. But one that uses pretty common human behavior patterns.

Like how Confucius has said many things apparently thousands of years after his death.

So what you are suggesting is that perhaps no specific person[1] as described in the bible existed, rather it was loosely based on the teachings of one or most likely a few people but the stories and parables grew to exaggerated proportions as they were passed along orally until finally when people decided to start writing about the accounts of this great wandering teacher he had been transformed into a god? I'll buy that. It's a rational explanation of how things likely could have transpired considering modern human behavior. To be honest, your theory is not too different than my own. I was never one to take the bible literally in the first place.

Sadly, the theory doesn't prove anything. I am forced to acknowledge that a single person who called himself Jesus is just as likely to have walked this earth teaching from the Torah as not.
 1. Jesus

More or less, you characterized what I was saying correctly
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #105 on: October 11, 2011, 09:02:13 PM »
Sadly, the theory doesn't prove anything. I am forced to acknowledge that a single person who called himself Jesus is just as likely to have walked this earth teaching from the Torah as not.

The definition of "Jesus", as per standard Christian (that atheists do battles against), believes that Jesus = miracles + resurrection. You would be a pretty strange atheist to believe that this Jesus existed, but there have been some that posit that his powers came from aliens. There quite likely was an apocalyptic preacher who preached "love your enemy", since the idea had to come from somewhere, even if it was Siddhartha Gautama.


BTW, further arguments that support the temporary nature of early Christianity:

Matt 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Matt 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

The expected turmoil between family members can only exist in non-Christian societies; a Christian child cannot generally find ways to hate their Christian parents. These quotes make sense, if Jesus is calling people to rise up against their bourgeois Roman and Jewish parents.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2011, 02:55:53 AM »
A spiritual event in your life that is so radical the Bible refers to it as being" born again".....For me, I developed an intense "hunger" to read the Bible.I experienced a time when I felt everyone was going to want what I found- ( Surprise!!!)

Yep.  That NEVER happens to followers of ANY other religion.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2011, 09:09:06 AM »
A spiritual event in your life that is so radical the Bible refers to it as being" born again".Was there any noticable change in you at that time? For me, I developed an intense "hunger" to read the Bible.I experienced a time when I felt everyone was going to want what I found- ( Surprise!!!)not so much.It was certainly a major life altering experience though.
Ah, now I see that you do indeed think that my version of born again isn’t the “right” way to be “born again”.  As always, the theist is sure that the former theist couldn’t possibly have really been anything that they are, since to admit that religion doesn’t always stick would mean that you are wrong.  No, there wasn’t any “noticeable change” in me.  I have always been a decent person.  You have made up the need for a “noticeable change” so you can use the tired old “No True Scotsman” fallacy.  I suspect that if I asked a hundred self-professed Christians, I’d get a hundred different answers on what they thought about being “born again”.  Your feeling that everyone was going to declare you the one true believer and follow what you’ve decided what God meant, is very very common.  How many “cultists” do you think feel this, that they found the one true way?  How many Muslims? How many Christians?  And there is no reason to think this is a supernatural experience.  It’s just humans really liking to be “right”. :)   
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I do go to the Bible Velkyn, I think we should at least consider what it says and move from there to what it means.I think if I were to relate your own experience ( repentance ,accepting Jesus, and baptism) to all the Christian sites I've been to that there would be an huge consensus agreeing with that definition.One hundred % ....of course not.
I went to the bible too as a believer and as not. So whoop-de-do.  Here we go with the claims that you know what it “means”.  Every Christian claims that they know what their god “really” meant.  Why is it that you disagree, onesteward? Why is there all of this disagreement, much more than you would admit with your equivocation that we for some reason shouldn’t expect 100% agreement(why not, why can’t your god get its act together?). And as above, I see that you don’t seem to really accept my definintion of being “born again” since you want me to have some “noticeable change”.    I’ve read the bible as a believer and as not.  When I was a believer I tried to ignore the actions of a primitive god that was no better than the gods in all of the other mythologies I have read.  I tried to come up with every answer I’ve read from Christians, how we aren’t reading it “right”.  But in the end, there is no indication that you or me or any Christian ever had a book that made any sense.  We created a god in our own minds that we could accept, and decided anything we didn’t’ like really wasn’t from this god, it was just humans screwing things up. 
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There was a reason though.An all important one: For God so Loved the world.....Jn 3 :16. Planned before the World began.Scripturally at least it seems to be anything but a "whim".
You want to claim John 3:16 but you ignore the rest of the thoughts there.  If God only gives grace to *some*, then this is nonsense:
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John 3:  10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
Here we have JC saying that people must believe in him to be saved.  However, according to Romans 9, and JC himself (Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke 8) he/god intentionally makes some people unable to believe.  This seems to be most unfair and does not indicate in anyway that this god so loves the “world’ unless you wish to define “world” as only those who God capriciously allows to believe and thus be saved. 
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16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. – NIV
  Now in this part it seems to indicate that anyone can have the chance to believe but as I have indicated above, that is not the case at all per the same bible that says they can.  Which is it, onesteward?  Are we all given the chance to believe or are we not?
and my quotes:
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and here’s what MW said about grace  a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace ....  So, we have the bible saying that people are given grace yes?  And they do not merit any heavenly reward, right?  So we have your bible confirming what I said.  And that this god is giving this “grace” with no discernable reason to one but not another (Romans 9), we have a whim.  Thus, your claim “You would have to be omniscient to know if it makes or will make any difference.Jesus doesn't seem the wasteful type to me That would be your Calvinism showing.”  fails.  No I would not have to be omniscient at all to know that proselytizing would make any difference.  I just have to know that the *only* thing that gets one in good with god is this “grace”. So do you believe that only grace gets people into heaven/New Jerusalem?  Or not?  Is your bible telling the truth that only grace gets you in or not? 

Now, the bible does repeatedly contradict itself on this point, which only shows that no one knows what actually gets this favor from this god, no Christian does at all, they only have their favorite version: grace, works, belief, etc.  Same with the whole born again thing.  We have some that agree with my former religion, and those who don’t. Again, who is the right one?  You haven’t answered my questions on how we determine that, and I find that any Christian who wants to claim that I’m wrong on these things better be able to show that he’s the OneTrueChristian.  You also try to claim that “this has been done before” with my request about the altars and you failed with your claim since no it hasn’t been done evidently since Elijah himself did it (assuming that the bible has any relationship to reality).  Just flaming altars, OS, that’s all I’m asking for.  But all Christians ignore my request, or try to excuse themselves.  Your excused failed, OS. So now what?
I’ve added all of the rest of my post in italics since you see fit to ignore it.  There are questions here, onesteward.  I’d appreciate answers. I will say that you probably have answered the one on “how do we determine on who’s born again?” with your intimation that I should have had some “noticeable change”.
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Because you can't personally discern a reason doen't mean there isn't a good reason.Quite a few times in my Christian life things happened that seemed unreasonable;as a young Christian even to the point that I became a backslider.After a time though they all began to make sense and I could see they were beneficial in my life.I guess some things we will see at the end.
Nice excuse there, but baseless as always and the usual claim that ‘wooo, god is mysterious’  We have reasons of what god wants and what god does all through the bible.  The problem for you is that your bible contradicts itself.  We have a god that gives grace to some and not others.  Why not, if this god, as you say “so loved the world”?  If he loves the “world”, then there is no reason to deny them anything.  But we see that he intentionally denies some this “love”.  And I’m sure many things in your life have seemed unreasonable.  It happens in everyone’s life, crap happens to people no matter what.  You try to explain it away by saying it’s some “reason” your god has.  You try to retcon any event by claiming that your god “meant” it to happen for your benefit.  I see this all of the time.  Christians try to claim that all horrible things have a purpose, often to “teach” something to someone.  Of course, that has the problem of why your god needs to hurt people to teach others.  This is the usual selfish arrogance that so many theists have, that they are so important that their god would harm someone else for them, that destruction is all for *them*.  I’ll tell you, I’d much rather go to the classic “hell” rather than have *anyone* harmed for my supposed “benefit”.

As for what we will “see at the end”, that’s a common last resort of a Christian.  You cling to your hope, sure that you’ll be right “in the end”.  And I don’t see that at all ever.  I see nothing that supports the existence of your god. I see no Christian actually being able to do what is promised.  I only see a bunch of humans who have made up a bunch of stories just like the stories of many other people, all certain that their god is the right one and that they’ll be validated at some future time. What happens when you are on your deathbed, onesteward, and all of the end time nonsense has yet to come?  How many more millennia do people wait to “see” if anything is valid about this religion?  It seems that all theists, and especially Christians, have left is vague promises of “real soon now”. 
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2011, 09:29:58 AM »
Luke 8) 

Oh, yes, the old Luke 8), similar to Matthew  :'(, and John  :o

I find myself going to the Bible whenever I need some advice on how to sacrifice my children, or beat up a slave. I was planning on building an ark, so I find the advice most useful.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2011, 09:57:25 AM »
Luke 8) 

Oh, yes, the old Luke 8), similar to Matthew  :'(, and John  :o

I find myself going to the Bible whenever I need some advice on how to sacrifice my children, or beat up a slave. I was planning on building an ark, so I find the advice most useful.

ROFL  oh my that's hilarious. didn't even notice what it did to my number and parenthesis, Luke 8 btw.  I just have to let it stand  ;D
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2011, 11:08:24 AM »
I think Serpent Killa killed him/herself with their own topic by showing how s/he either never read the Bible (or perhaps the entirety of it) and/or doesn't possess the intellect to understand it.  Which, on the latter one can't really wrong him/her for since it is filled with similes, parables, and metaphors.

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A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline onesteward

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2011, 01:09:33 PM »
. I’ve added all of the rest of my post in italics since you see fit to ignore it.  There are questions here, onesteward.  I’d appreciate answers. I will say that you probably have answered the one on “how do we determine on who’s born again?” with your intimation that I should have had some “noticeable change”.


I answer as much as I can.
I have certain time constraints Velkyn.I only access this forum while at work and while doing other things here as well.Take today for instance, I have a "tee time" for this afternoon so this will be it for me today.Golf season is on the wane so I'm taking advantage of the time I have left to play.Not to mention that "The "Rapture could take place and I might never get to Golf again."

 Velkyn it seems to me after talking to virtually everyone I know who 'got saved'  that the change would be noticeable to you.Nothing? You were exactly the same before and after?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline velkyn

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2011, 01:34:03 PM »
I answer as much as I can.
I have certain time constraints Velkyn.I only access this forum while at work and while doing other things here as well.Take today for instance, I have a "tee time" for this afternoon so this will be it for me today.Golf season is on the wane so I'm taking advantage of the time I have left to play.Not to mention that "The "Rapture could take place and I might never get to Golf again."
 Velkyn it seems to me after talking to virtually everyone I know who 'got saved'  that the change would be noticeable to you.Nothing? You were exactly the same before and after?

I know you have time constraints.  I am not asking for an immediate answer, though I note that you can take the time for an excuse but you can’t simply answer questions.  I ask those questions because it will narrow down what you do and don't beleive, something germaine to this discussion.  I try to make most questions answerable by a yes or no.  Those that ask for more require you to explain how we know who the true Christians are or how calling for a destruction of a whole town is the same as lighting an altar.  Again, something germaine to the discussion. 

And no, there was nothing.  Again, onesteward, you seem to be looking for any reason to claim that I was not "born again" and that you have a way of determining who are TrueChristians and who are not.  We don't all have dramatic stories on how were were converted from a life of sin and degradation and all of the sudden needed to read the bible, or in some other way declare our piousness on street corners.  Now, I put to you that I can explain the reason why “virtually everyone” you know who got saved said that they had some major change. It’s because they knew you expected something of them.  They didn’t want to be left out and admit that nothing happened.  If they did that, you might assume, as you appear to be doing now, that they didn’t “really” get saved and they weren’t a real Christian.  It’s the desire to be accepted as important and to keep within the herd.  I don’t have that hanging over me any more so I am telling you the truth about my self and my experience.   

Have fun golfing.  All I can do with a club is sent balls straight and then they take a right turn like they were some kind of UFO. ;D
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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2011, 03:41:07 PM »
What's this, Velkyn?  Getting Born Againtm didn't even lower your score?!  I hate t' break it to ye lass, but ye were Nae True Scotsman Christian!
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Offline Omen

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2011, 05:27:17 PM »
Velkyn it seems to me after talking to virtually everyone I know who 'got saved'  that the change would be noticeable to you.Nothing? You were exactly the same before and after?

You're implication, by default, is that all people who become christians were unhappy beforehand or that all people who are not christian are unhappy.

That's some pretty serious deranged dehumanization of everyone not like yourself.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Re: In order to believe in God.
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2011, 06:01:08 PM »
Not to mention that "The "Rapture could take place and I might never get to Golf again."

Props for the sense of humor and all, but it does make me wonder....

If "getting saved" really does result in some amazing, profound transformation,[1] would you be able to come up with a joke like this?  Would the idea even occur to you?  Compare also, your signature. 

Velkyn it seems to me after talking to virtually everyone I know who 'got saved'  that the change would be noticeable to you.  Nothing? You were exactly the same before and after?

What sort of "change" are you talking about?  It's not like, before you were the skinny guy who got sand kicked in his face on the beach, but from the moment of "salvation" you're ripped like a Greek god[2] and have one of seven Gift-of-the-Spirit superpowers. 
 1. I mean, beyond anything like "Oh yay!  Now that I'm coming up out of the baptismal fount, everyone's cheering for me!  I fit in!" or "Whelp, now that I believe everything the Bible says, I guess it might be a good idea to start reading it--oooh!  A hunger for God's Word!  Woohoo!"
 2. Which is a good thing, now that you have to go around in a skin-tight suit and calf boots. ;)
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