A spiritual event in your life that is so radical the Bible refers to it as being" born again".Was there any noticable change in you at that time? For me, I developed an intense "hunger" to read the Bible.I experienced a time when I felt everyone was going to want what I found- ( Surprise!!!)not so much.It was certainly a major life altering experience though.
Ah, now I see that you do indeed think that my version of born again isn’t the “right” way to be “born again”. As always, the theist is sure that the former theist couldn’t possibly have really been anything that they are, since to admit that religion doesn’t always stick would mean that you are wrong. No, there wasn’t any “noticeable change” in me. I have always been a decent person. You have made up the need for a “noticeable change” so you can use the tired old “No True Scotsman” fallacy. I suspect that if I asked a hundred self-professed Christians, I’d get a hundred different answers on what they thought about being “born again”. Your feeling that everyone was going to declare you the one true believer and follow what you’ve decided what God meant, is very very common. How many “cultists” do you think feel this, that they found the one true way? How many Muslims? How many Christians? And there is no reason to think this is a supernatural experience. It’s just humans really liking to be “right”.
I do go to the Bible Velkyn, I think we should at least consider what it says and move from there to what it means.I think if I were to relate your own experience ( repentance ,accepting Jesus, and baptism) to all the Christian sites I've been to that there would be an huge consensus agreeing with that definition.One hundred % ....of course not.
I went to the bible too as a believer and as not. So whoop-de-do. Here we go with the claims that you know what it “means”. Every Christian claims that they know what their god “really” meant. Why is it that you disagree, onesteward? Why is there all of this disagreement, much more than you would admit with your equivocation that we for some reason shouldn’t expect 100% agreement(why not, why can’t your god get its act together?). And as above, I see that you don’t seem to really accept my definintion of being “born again” since you want me to have some “noticeable change”. I’ve read the bible as a believer and as not. When I was a believer I tried to ignore the actions of a primitive god that was no better than the gods in all of the other mythologies I have read. I tried to come up with every answer I’ve read from Christians, how we aren’t reading it “right”. But in the end, there is no indication that you or me or any Christian ever had a book that made any sense. We created a god in our own minds that we could accept, and decided anything we didn’t’ like really wasn’t from this god, it was just humans screwing things up.
There was a reason though.An all important one: For God so Loved the world.....Jn 3 :16. Planned before the World began.Scripturally at least it seems to be anything but a "whim".
You want to claim John 3:16 but you ignore the rest of the thoughts there. If God only gives grace to *some*, then this is nonsense:
John 3: 10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
Here we have JC saying that people must believe in him to be saved. However, according to Romans 9, and JC himself (Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke
he/god intentionally makes some people unable to believe. This seems to be most unfair and does not indicate in anyway that this god so loves the “world’ unless you wish to define “world” as only those who God capriciously allows to believe and thus be saved.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. – NIV
Now in this part it seems to indicate that anyone can have the chance to believe but as I have indicated above, that is not the case at all per the same bible that says they can. Which is it, onesteward? Are we all given the chance to believe or are we not?
and my quotes:
and here’s what MW said about grace a : unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine grace .... So, we have the bible saying that people are given grace yes? And they do not merit any heavenly reward, right? So we have your bible confirming what I said. And that this god is giving this “grace” with no discernable reason to one but not another (Romans 9), we have a whim. Thus, your claim “You would have to be omniscient to know if it makes or will make any difference.Jesus doesn't seem the wasteful type to me That would be your Calvinism showing.” fails. No I would not have to be omniscient at all to know that proselytizing would make any difference. I just have to know that the *only* thing that gets one in good with god is this “grace”. So do you believe that only grace gets people into heaven/New Jerusalem? Or not? Is your bible telling the truth that only grace gets you in or not?
Now, the bible does repeatedly contradict itself on this point, which only shows that no one knows what actually gets this favor from this god, no Christian does at all, they only have their favorite version: grace, works, belief, etc. Same with the whole born again thing. We have some that agree with my former religion, and those who don’t. Again, who is the right one? You haven’t answered my questions on how we determine that, and I find that any Christian who wants to claim that I’m wrong on these things better be able to show that he’s the OneTrueChristian. You also try to claim that “this has been done before” with my request about the altars and you failed with your claim since no it hasn’t been done evidently since Elijah himself did it (assuming that the bible has any relationship to reality). Just flaming altars, OS, that’s all I’m asking for. But all Christians ignore my request, or try to excuse themselves. Your excused failed, OS. So now what?
I’ve added all of the rest of my post in italics since you see fit to ignore it. There are questions here, onesteward. I’d appreciate answers. I will say that you probably have answered the one on “how do we determine on who’s born again?” with your intimation that I should have had some “noticeable change”.
Because you can't personally discern a reason doen't mean there isn't a good reason.Quite a few times in my Christian life things happened that seemed unreasonable;as a young Christian even to the point that I became a backslider.After a time though they all began to make sense and I could see they were beneficial in my life.I guess some things we will see at the end.
Nice excuse there, but baseless as always and the usual claim that ‘wooo, god is mysterious’ We have reasons of what god wants and what god does all through the bible. The problem for you is that your bible contradicts itself. We have a god that gives grace to some and not others. Why not, if this god, as you say “so loved the world”? If he loves the “world”, then there is no reason to deny them anything. But we see that he intentionally denies some this “love”. And I’m sure many things in your life have seemed unreasonable. It happens in everyone’s life, crap happens to people no matter what. You try to explain it away by saying it’s some “reason” your god has. You try to retcon any event by claiming that your god “meant” it to happen for your benefit. I see this all of the time. Christians try to claim that all horrible things have a purpose, often to “teach” something to someone. Of course, that has the problem of why your god needs to hurt people to teach others. This is the usual selfish arrogance that so many theists have, that they are so important that their god would harm someone else for them, that destruction is all for *them*. I’ll tell you, I’d much rather go to the classic “hell” rather than have *anyone* harmed for my supposed “benefit”.
As for what we will “see at the end”, that’s a common last resort of a Christian. You cling to your hope, sure that you’ll be right “in the end”. And I don’t see that at all ever. I see nothing that supports the existence of your god. I see no Christian actually being able to do what is promised. I only see a bunch of humans who have made up a bunch of stories just like the stories of many other people, all certain that their god is the right one and that they’ll be validated at some future time. What happens when you are on your deathbed, onesteward, and all of the end time nonsense has yet to come? How many more millennia do people wait to “see” if anything is valid about this religion? It seems that all theists, and especially Christians, have left is vague promises of “real soon now”.