In order to believe in God.

[Poseidon]

I still have that sheep thing stuck in my craw. My sheep do not pay much attention to god but they sure enough do what my Border Collies tell them to do. Wait.......................maybe god has taken the form of a dog in order to vent his will on the sheep.

[onesteward]

I think if Jesus says "Ye must be born again", that would be a good starting point.John 3 covers it.

Why it would be a great point, *if* Christians could agree on just what that means.  Again, can you tell me which one is the right one, onesteward?

Your definition seems to be a good one.According to the Presbyterian site I looked at they took salvation to be a "spiritual" event, obviously ministered by The Holy Spirit.Was that your understanding at the time of your conversion?

 It doesn’t seem so, and you punt to the bible. 

I don't consider going to the source as "punting"

You would have to be omniscient to know if it makes or will make any difference.Jesus doesn't seem the wasteful type to me That would be your Calvinism showing.

Nice repetition of an accusation but please do show how that actually works, onesteward.  Just calling names is a rather sad attempt to excuse your nonsense.  And no, I wouldn’t have to be omniscient to know if it would make any difference if the claim that “one is only saved by the grace aka whim of god is true”.  Then I know that *nothing* else has any influence on the situation.  So, is that claim true, onesteward, is your bible telling the truth here or not?

Grace= unmerited favor  or there is  grace= enablement to accomplish something.I couldn't find any definition other than yours which defined it as a "whim".Again Velkyn--and I don't mean it in a bad way at all...you are just quoting from the Calvinists playbook.Perhaps you have issues with Calvin and not God.Jesus sent them out to preach. I'm sure there was a reason for it.

[kcrady]

Onesteward, do you accept or reject the claims made by SerpentKilla in the OP?

[onesteward]

Onesteward, do you accept or reject the claims made by SerpentKilla in the OP?

I haven't been following them K. I will read them at some point and respond then.

[SERPENT KILLA]

Kin Hell, I don't know what mistake you are talkng about.

Luke 16:17  And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The people who wrote all the variants of the synoptic gospel resolved Christianity for strict Jews. Paul freed you, not Jesus. But it's OK if you ignore the synotpic Gospels. They are obviously wrong about a lot of things.

Jesus said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."(Matthew5:17)

Jesus came and fulfilled the prophecies and laws. not Paul.

The laws were completed, by love of God. "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."(1Peter 4:8 )

[12 Monkeys]

A "loving God" would not condemn anybody to hell


 Do the child molesting priests get into heaven because they have accepted Christ as the lord and saviour?

 are you like 12 SK?

[SERPENT KILLA]

A "loving God" would not condemn anybody to hell

Says who? Are you one of trinity of God?

  Do the child molesting priests get into heaven because they have accepted Christ as the lord and saviour?
are you like 12 SK?

"In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead"(James 2:17)

Do you think child molesting priests accepted Christ?

Ya you Fucktard,that sounds like love to me

12M. Why are you mad at believers? because we are illogical and irrational?
then, are you mad at people who believes is UFOs, Big foots, FSM? if not, why not?

[Emily]

The laws were completed, by love of God. "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."(1Peter 4:8 )

God is anything but love. He's a cruel monster. Lets assume that you are right about Jesus dying for your sins. As a christian you are forced to obey his commandments and the slightest thing you do to break at least one of his commandments you are destined to hell, regardless or how big or small the commandment you broke is. Romans 13 talks about obeying the government, and submitting yourself to their authority. That chapter says "whoever resists the authority resists the authority of god, and those who resist will bring judgement onto themselves (Roman 13:2).

 Assuming you drive and you go one mile over the speed limit. You are breaking the rules of the road put in place by the government, which in turns brings judgement on you by god, then you have to ask god for forgiveness. Do you drive? Have you ever gone one mile over the speed limit? If you do drive then I am 100% certain that you have sped at least a hundred times. You have sinned against your god, even if it was accidental.

A loving god will forgive you for going 5 miles over, or even 10 miles over. Depending on the police who are shooting radar they will forgive you for speeding if it's under 10 miles. But god wont. He has no leeway and he wont budge and forgive someone for the slightest thing they do that breaks his commandments. That's not love.

SK, if you have a boyfriend or husband I am sure you've done something that he doesn't appreciate you to do. Whether it is little or big. I have done a lot of stuff that my husband hates  and a lot to piss him off but I know he still loves me for it and would never condemn me for it. That's love right there. One aspect of a loving relationship is to be able to forgive someone without that person actually saying 'I'm sorry', but with god he wants you to confess your sins to him. He wants an apology for the slightest thing you do wrong. God holds a grudge for the dumbest things. That's not love right there. It's far from it.

[Emily]

then, are you mad at people who believes is UFOs,

Just to nit-pick: UFOs are real by the very meaning of the acronym. About aliens and their flying saucers. Personally I believe in them. The universe is just too large for their not to be other civilizations out there in another galaxy, or even in our own. Though there is no evidence for their existence.

As for big foots out there. There are people who strongly believe in them. And it's very much possible they do exist, though I have never seen on before. I don't know.

As for believers they strongly believe in their version of god, and well, when looking at the bible with inquiring eyes it's pretty easy to see how messed up that book is. It's pretty easy to see how illogical it is, and how the events contained in the 66 books are mentioned nowhere else in history, and it's pretty easy to see how the book falls flat on its face both scientifically and historically. It's just wrong about a hell of a lot of things. But believers ignore all that and create excuses for its errors. They deserve peoples' criticism when they try to force their beliefs onto others.

[SERPENT KILLA]

"whoever resists the authority resists the authority of god, and those who resist will bring judgement onto themselves (Roman 13:2).

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." (Mark12:17)
Us Christians are also under obligation to follow and to obey the authority.
that "Judgement"does not mean condemnation, it is more like consequence.

EX)If you drive over the speed limit, you will get a ticket. You won't be excused even if you are God's child.

SK, if you have a boyfriend or husband I am sure you've done something that he doesn't appreciate you to do. Whether it is little or big. I have done a lot of stuff that my husband hates  and a lot to piss him off but I know he still loves me for it and would never condemn me for it. That's love right there. One aspect of a loving relationship is to be able to forgive someone without that person actually saying 'I'm sorry', but with god he wants you to confess your sins to him. He wants an apology for the slightest thing you do wrong. God holds a grudge for the dumbest things. That's not love right there. It's far from it.

Emily, God forgives, If he didn't, I think no one on the earth would survive one day.
That is what christianity is all about, "no one is perfect, but through grace of God, anybody believes, shall have eternal life.

[SERPENT KILLA]

They deserve peoples' criticism when they try to force their beliefs onto others.

Sis, as far as I am concerned, no forcing, no pushing.
I was just delivering God's love letter to you.

It goes like this "I love you, I would die for you, I want to be with you for eternity"

[jetson]

SERPENT KILLA,

When you registered at this forum, you agreed to follow the forum rules.  You need to stop preaching, and start using your own arguments and words.  If you cannot do this, you will be moderated until you follow the rules.  Please PM me if you have any questions.

Jetson

[Emily]

EX)If you drive over the speed limit, you will get a ticket. You won't be excused even if you are God's child.

Way to totally miss the point of my stupid analogy.

BTW: I've sped many times past cops shooting radar. But unless I am going 10 or more over (at least here in NY) they will typically let it slid. But with god he doesn't let anything slid.

Emily, God forgives, If he didn't, I think no one on the earth would survive one day.
That is what christianity is all about, "no one is perfect, but through grace of God, anybody believes, shall have eternal life.

Lame. If god is loving god wouldn't send those he doesn't forgive to such a horrible place like hell. Also, if he was love then he'd learn that someone saying sorry (or confessing their sins) is not the only way to forgive someone. He's so high strung. I think he has blue balls or something. Perhaps he needs to get laid or something.

And if the bible is right about anybody who believes will have eternal life then there's no need for confessing your sins. I can believe in god all I want too and go out and kill a bunch of people and get into heaven. Or on a lesser example I can steal a loaf of bread to feed my starving family, and still get into heaven.

If anyone who believes gets into heaven then confessing your sins to god is completely pointless.

[Historicity]

I can't remember Benny's theme song....would you hum a few bars.

It was Yakety Sax by Boots Randolph and James Rich.

Here is a midi of it:  http://rosemck1.tripod.com/yakety-sax.mid

[Emily]

Sis, as far as I am concerned, no forcing, no pushing.
I was just delivering God's love letter to you.

It goes like this "I love you, I would die for you, I want to be with you for eternity"

First of all I've heard god's love letter millions of times.

Second: His love letter is completely wrong about a lot of things. From creation to the flood to the virgin birth to the death and resurrection. None of those things have any historically merit. His loving message is only a placebo for those who don't think critically. I highly doubt he died for me. I highly doubt he even existed. Also, no one  ask him to do us any favors anyways, but because of this favor if someone doesn't believe they go to hell. He did so based on his own judgement. He is forcing people to believe in him using fear. That being if you don't believe in him you are destined to a horrible place. Not love.

[pianodwarf]

Assuming you drive and you go one mile over the speed limit. You are breaking the rules of the road put in place by the government, which in turns brings judgement on you by god, then you have to ask god for forgiveness. Do you drive? Have you ever gone one mile over the speed limit? If you do drive then I am 100% certain that you have sped at least a hundred times. You have sinned against your god, even if it was accidental.

True story (and one that I suspect is not terribly rare):

When I went to take my road test to get my driver's license for the very first time, I did, in fact, exceed the speed limit by one mile per hour at least once during the test.  When I pulled back into the parking space and shut down the car, the examiner spent a few moments reviewing the results of my road test.  He told me that I had gone over the speed limit by one mile per hour -- and just for good measure, he also told me that I had followed improper procedure at the beginning of the test by pulling out of the parking spot improperly (drawing me a little diagram to explain my mistake), all of which meant I did not achieve a perfect score on the road test.

So he immediately pulled out a sidearm and blew my brains out.  Oh, no, sorry, my mistake... what did he do, again?

He called the police and had me arrested for speeding.  No, no, wait a second, that wasn't it, either.

Oh, right, I remember now.  He told me that I had passed the test, and after I went back into the test center with the examiner and gotten a few final arrangements taken care of, I went home with a driver's license.  I wonder why in the world he didn't set me on fire instead.  (Yahweh certainly would have...)

[12 Monkeys]

Bigfoot IS real....and as far as the UFO kooks go if they get into Government and start passing laws like the Religous morons do we may have a problem

[12 Monkeys]

"whoever resists the authority resists the authority of god, and those who resist will bring judgement onto themselves (Roman 13:2).

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." (Mark12:17)
Us Christians are also under obligation to follow and to obey the authority.
that "Judgement"does not mean condemnation, it is more like consequence.

EX)If you drive over the speed limit, you will get a ticket. You won't be excused even if you are God's child.

SK, if you have a boyfriend or husband I am sure you've done something that he doesn't appreciate you to do. Whether it is little or big. I have done a lot of stuff that my husband hates  and a lot to piss him off but I know he still loves me for it and would never condemn me for it. That's love right there. One aspect of a loving relationship is to be able to forgive someone without that person actually saying 'I'm sorry', but with god he wants you to confess your sins to him. He wants an apology for the slightest thing you do wrong. God holds a grudge for the dumbest things. That's not love right there. It's far from it.

Emily, God forgives, If he didn't, I think no one on the earth would survive one day.
That is what christianity is all about, "no one is perfect, but through grace of God, anybody believes, shall have eternal life.

thanks for answering my Question about child molesting priests ......as long as they believe they will be in the kingdom of heaven.....but maybe not the child they rape .....hell bound because God took his faith away by leaving the priest to use his free-will for RAPE

[Add Homonym]

Jesus said “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."(Matthew5:17)

Jesus came and fulfilled the prophecies and laws. not Paul.

The laws were completed, by love of God. "Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."(1Peter 4:8 )

It's obvious why Christians will go to such lengths to ignore what is obviously written in the synoptic gospels: it horrifies them. If they read what is actually written in the synoptic gospels without blinkers on, they will have to stop being Christians.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Jewish law will even hold in the resurrection. Not one part of it will fail, until the universe ends.

The reason why you cannot satisfactorily resolve the abolition of the law (except by lying), is that the synoptic gospel writers were convinced that the whole Jewish law would stand, but in order to get into heaven, the law needed restating, so that people would follow the important laws the most. They were placing too much emphasis on sacrifice and hand washing. Jesus specifically rebukes dietary obsession, but note that he does not say to stop doing it.

[17] Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
[18] But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
[19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
[20] These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

By implication, you will not get to heaven, if you teach others to avoid more major Jewish laws.

Because Jesus reviews the importance of the specific laws, it was easy for Paul, and his ilk to further distort his teachings, and pretend that he was saying not to follow the lesser laws. Christians have resolved the conflict by taking a bet each-way. They do things that they think will get them browny points with God, but also pretend that Jesus made a new covenant, where they don't have to follow lesser Jewish laws. However, the synoptic gospels give caveats which are incompatible with this each-way-bet solution.

[Emily]

thanks for answering my Question about child molesting priests ......as long as they believe they will be in the kingdom of heaven.....but maybe not the child they rape .....hell bound because God took his faith away by leaving the priest to use his free-will for RAPE

Makes the christian faith even more vile and disgusting. The most horrible people in the world can do the most horrible acts imaginable and still hold a belief in biblegod. Their actions are not justified and shouldn't be to us mortal beings; but to the heavenly father they gain eternal happiness when they deserve something far worst than hell can provide them. But to us law-biding atheists who find it wrong to rape a child based on our morals that we gained through feelings of sympathy and respect for other lives and practicing our own free-will we burn for not having a belief in god, though a majority of us do deserve some sort of eternal bliss for how we lived our lives.

[Astreja]

Sis, as far as I am concerned, no forcing, no pushing.
I was just delivering God's love letter to you.

It goes like this "I love you, I would die for you, I want to be with you for eternity"

You forgot the other part of this alleged "love letter," SK.  It goes like this:

If you find yourself unable to believe, or if you are not willing to let an innocent man die in your place, I will torture you for eternity.  There are no other choices available because I, the most powerful being in the entire universe, say so.  Sucks to be you, O worthless dirt which I created.

You see, SK, this is indeed forcing and pushing.  It is also not "love" in any sense which is meaningful to the average sane, empathetic sentient being.

It does, however, bear a positively uncanny resemblance to the dynamic found in abusive relationships.  Stockholm Syndrome, anyone?

[Anfauglir]

"whoever resists the authority resists the authority of god, and those who resist will bring judgement onto themselves (Roman 13:2).

"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." (Mark12:17)
Us Christians are also under obligation to follow and to obey the authority.
that "Judgement"does not mean condemnation, it is more like consequence.

EX)If you drive over the speed limit, you will get a ticket. You won't be excused even if you are God's child.

Oh look - SerpentKilla is debating the message!  And so......

Our job is to spread and proclaim the good news, not to debate or to persuade.

The with the greatest respect....why are you still here, answering questions?  You've proclaimed the news.....by engaging further are you not "debating" or trying further to persuade?......if you remain, and continue to debate and try to persuade us....then you will have shown that your words I have quoted above are NOT ture...and maybe - or perhaps a lot more than maybe - that will be viewed as evidence that everything ELSE you said was not true.

....therefore SK was LYING when they said the words in Red above.  I think we can therefore fairly safely assume that anything else SK says is likewise a lie.

[Add Homonym]

....therefore SK was LYING when they said the words in Red above.  I think we can therefore fairly safely assume that anything else SK says is likewise a lie.

Well, yeah... Caesar don't own anything, so you should only pay taxes to God.   Unless there's something I'm missing.

[ungod]

If faith comes from God, where is mine?

"IT" comes from God, so you should ask HIM.

Since God is omniscient it should be unnecessary to ask - He should provide the answer as soon as His foreknowledge indicates the question will be asked.
 

[screwtape]

Does it make you feel all deep and enlightened to use nonsensical 14th century bible talk in a 21st century conversation?

Word.  It's been a while since I ranted about the xian lexicon.  It peeves me to no end when xians talk about eating of the tree of knowledge or having a relationship in christ.  WTF is their problem with prepositions?  That exactly nails it Ray. It is pretense, pure and simple. 

[Nam]

Serpent Killa, your -1 you gave me was quite jovial.  See, I know what "spreading the gospel" means but it seems you don't.  You're supposed to spread the gospels to your fellow Christians that aren't like your particular Christianity.  See, to you they're not really Christian; you're in the True Christian sect, and they are going to hell 'cause they're in the wrong one.  So, coming to those who are not Christian is what you're doing wrong. There's more of them than there are of us -- why are you wasting such valuable time?

-Nam

[Add Homonym]

Serpent Killa, your -1 you gave me was quite jovial.  See, I know what "spreading the gospel" means but it seems you don't.  You're supposed to spread the gospels to your fellow Christians that aren't like your particular Christianity.  See, to you they're not really Christian; you're in the True Christian sect, and they are going to hell 'cause they're in the wrong one.  So, coming to those who are not Christian is what you're doing wrong. There's more of them than there are of us -- why are you wasting such valuable time?

-Nam

As long as their jaws open and shut, and from of them spouteth Christian noises, they are in Christ Jesus.


PS: The Greek text in Romans always uses "in" Jesus, but the Hebrew concerning trees is "from him". The tree is male.

[Historicity]

True story (and one that I suspect is not terribly rare):

When I went to take my road test to get my driver's license for the very first time, I did, in fact, exceed the speed limit by one mile per hour at least once during the test.
...

He called the police and had me arrested for speeding.  No, no, wait a second, that wasn't it, either.

Oh, right, I remember now.  ...  I went home with a driver's license.  I wonder why in the world he didn't set me on fire instead.  (Yahweh certainly would have...)

This is a digression from the topic, but.

Hah!  You don't come from Ohio.

Up until the 1970s there was a strange attitude that a motorcycle was a sort of bicycle.  There was a motorcycle license in Ohio but it was one that allowed 14 year olds to ride a Harley 74 but they still couldn't drive a car until they got a license at the age of 16.  In any case an automobile driver's license implied the right to drive a motorcycle.  (Special licenses for 18 wheelers and for bus drivers were separate.)  Then the motorcycle license was opposed.  You had to pass an easy test in a parking lot.  So people who had been riding cycles all their lives went down to the highway patrol office for the test.

They were all ticketed for driving without a license. They were supposed to have gone down and paid for a learner's permit which would have allowed them to ride down and take the test.  I think they also had to pay for a motorcycle learner's permit anyway along with the fine.  Then they could take the test.

Maybe that's another take on WWJD. 

[SERPENT KILLA]

Sorry all,  for being side tracked a little.
I already knew explaining and debating wouldn't work here, because THAT IS MY POINT in the first place.
But every time someone asks me questions about the bible, I make a same mistake and try to debate and come up with excuses for my God. my mistake.
Let's get back to OP.

Just in case you are wondering why people believe in God.
If you are not interested, please do not start reading, you are wasting your time.
So, in order to believe in God.

Like I said earlier, God chooses us, not we do.
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit" (John 15:16)

You probably know how Saul was converted and became apostle Paul (Acts 9), basically Christ showed himself to Paul, on his way to capture and murder Christians.

You probably know what Jesus said to peter and his brother, all he said was "Come, follow" then they dropped what they were doing and followed him.

You probably know what Jesus told us(Christians), "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:19-20)
It surely doesn't sound like "Go, make excuses for me, explain them, debate with them, use all your logics to make them believe........"
NO NO NO that is not our job.

I already told you how I became a Christian, I listened and I believed, that is all.
Ask any Christians you know how they became believers, I guarantee you, no Christian will say "I believe in God, because whole bible makes sense, virgin Mary, taliking snake and all.",

Indoctrinated? no, how are you going to explain some pastor's kids that are atheists?

Illogical? no, how are you going to explain professors in logistics that are believers?

moral? no, how are you going to explain two robbers were crucified with Jesus, and only one of two believed?

Free will? maybe, but how are going to explain apostle Paul's case? did paul want to believe in Christ?

"Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"(Romans 9:21)

So if you are asking Christians "why won't god heal amputees?", you are asking the wrong crowd, because we don't know.
Who told you we,(Christians) are God's advocates? We are his followers.
You are asking sheep, you have to ask the shephard (if he listens to you)

So next time you have a chance to talk to a Christian, ask him/her "how did you start believing?" or "why do you believe?"
Let me say this again, Jesus said "My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me"(John 10:27)