I think if Jesus says "Ye must be born again", that would be a good starting point.John 3 covers it.
Why it would be a great point, *if* Christians could agree on just what that means. Again, can you tell me which one is the right one, onesteward? It doesn’t seem so, and you punt to the bible.
You would have to be omniscient to know if it makes or will make any difference.Jesus doesn't seem the wasteful type to me That would be your Calvinism showing.
Nice repetition of an accusation but please do show how that actually works, onesteward. Just calling names is a rather sad attempt to excuse your nonsense. And no, I wouldn’t have to be omniscient to know if it would make any difference if the claim that “one is only saved by the grace aka whim of god is true”. Then I know that *nothing* else has any influence on the situation. So, is that claim true, onesteward, is your bible telling the truth here or not?
Well, we are getting your version here also.
wow, my version is the bible? I wrote the bible? I don’t recall doing that. You see, here I simply put verses down, not my opinion at all. Then of course we get your opinion, you know, *exactly* what I said about how Chrisitans create their own god and version of the religion. I am still waiting to see how yours is the correct one.
My opinion is that there is ample Scripture to question limited atonement. There are certainly people(way more qualified than I ) on both sides in the Calvinist / Arminian debate who never really settled the issue; I'm pretty sure we won't.I also am greatly blessed and learn a great deal from people on both sides... I think a good example of two differing opinions with one purpose in mind would be George Whitefield and John Wesley.I believe they both were instrumental in "The Great Awakening" but am not positive about that
Ah, so your opinion and “version” are better than mine somehow, yes? Please do show how that works, onesteward. I’m sure that you can probably pull out just as many verses as I have, and that sure does support the position that the bible is full of contradictions and is not special in anyway. And appeals to authority? How pathetic. You are only putting the opinion of someone else on a pededstal. You also try to claim that we won’t succeed where others failed. Why not, onesteward? Why not discuss this and maybe we’ll make headway? Or is it that you already know you’ll fail? I’ve also read both sides, so please don’t make the tired old claim that atheists are “closed minded” which seems to be where you are going with this.
Sorry, I disagree.You sound to me like a person who wanted to craft God to be what you wanted Him to be and couldn't handle the fact that He is "I Am that I Am".
ROFL. Oh my. It’s rather amusing that you make such a claim and then of course like every other Christian, you have no more evidence of such nonsense than your holy book. Each Christian says “look at my god, it’s the only ‘real’ one and I know just what it is.” I take the god fully as presented in the bible, contradictions and all, and I see it as it is, a man-made creation. I see no evidence of any supreme being. I would love if you could show me some.
Doctrinal issues usually.I guess like Whitefield and Wesley we should focus on what we have in common and like them amazing things would happen.
Yep, doctrinal issues, what God “really” wants and “really” meant. And funny how those great authorities can’t even agree on what things you should have in common are. They all are certain that their version is the only “right” one. We have Protestants and Catholics, Orthodox, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, and thousands more. Who’s version gets supremacy, onesteward? Once you decide, then magic will happen? Again, this reads as the usual promises made by theists e.g. if you would only pray “my” way, then God would answer, if you would only be “born again” my way, then you would feel God, etc.
I read about them happening frequently.You have excluded yourself from any possibility of the supernatural so you can't accept them- no matter what.Like the possibility you might have been "born again".That just makes you a backslider and not an atheist so you can't own up to it.
I read about UFOs frequently. Golly, that must mean that they are real! And no, I’ve also read about miracles, so your attempt to claim that I have “excluded myself” from anything is again wishful thinking on your part. What I need is evidence, onesteward. Just like you would need if a Wicca claimed to have healed an amputee, just like you would if I claimed that I met an alien from Zeta Retculi and it was a reptiloid posing as Queen Elizabeth II. It’s also hilarious that you think you can declare what I am. No, onesteward, I am an atheist, not a “backslider”. I know you can’t stand the idea of someone rejecting your faith since that would mean someone thinks you are wrong, and you need every scrap of nonsense you can find, or create to validate your self-worth. What I’m asking, onesteward, is why can’t *you* do these miracles? Why can’t every single Christian or theist of any stripe, do what was promised?
That has already been tried with less than desirable results. Luke 9: 53-55
Nope, not the same thing at all. You see, I can read the bible too:
51 As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem. 52 And he sent messengers on ahead, who went into a Samaritan village to get things ready for him; 53 but the people there did not welcome him, because he was heading for Jerusalem. 54 When the disciples James and John saw this, they asked, “Lord, do you want us to call fire down from heaven to destroy them?” 55 But Jesus turned and rebuked them. 56 Then he and his disciples went to another village.
I’m not asking for a village to be destroyed at all. I am asking for fire on an altar. Howver, it is curious that JC stopped his disciples considering that JC is all about threatening villages if they dare not accept his disciples (Matthew 10, Luke 10). Of course, he does put that off until “judgement day”. Seems that an actual display of power isn’t possible here. I’m guessing you’d call this “mercy” but I see it as a prophet who can’t actually do what he claims and his actions are merely convenience, like when he couldn’t do any miracles in his hometown. I figured you would be just one more in a long line of Christians who would refuse this challenge and try to excuse you and your god’s way out of it.
