In order to believe in God.

[SERPENT KILLA]

In order to believe in God

I have a secret to share to you all.
I have read some of Christians' posts here, but either they don't realize or don't have guts to tell the truth.
The truth is kind of mean,  but true. Here we go.

1)Faith does not come from rational understanding.
2)Faith does not come from objective evidence.
3)Faith does not come from logic or intelligence.
4)Faith does not come from anyone's proof.
5)Faith does not come from scientific explanation.
Are you ready to hear the truth?

FAITH COMES FROM GOD"So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ"(Romans 10:17)

Sounds like blind faith?

God chose his own people and children even before creation.
"For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love"(Ephesians 1:4)

Then why do Christians spread the gospel?

Jesus told us so.

Our job is to spread and proclaim the good news, not to debate or to persuade.
When I heard the good news, I believed. That's all.
"My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me"(John 10:27)
You are wasting your time if you are truly looking for an answer for evidence of God.
because you will NEVER get it.
it's not my guarantee, but seriously, think about it. who, in the history of mankind ever come up with a proof of God's existence? are with talking about the president Obama? are we talking about prime minister of UK?
NO we are talking about God.

[Add Homonym]

You just contradicted yourself. You use the Bible as objective evidence, and then you say that proof will not come from evidence. How do you know that Jesus told you to spread the gospel?

Thanks for admitting that God will never show himself in any way, or heal amputees.

[SERPENT KILLA]

You just contradicted yourself. You use the Bible as objective evidence, and then you say that proof will not come from evidence. How do you know that Jesus told you to spread the gospel?

Thanks for admitting that God will never show himself in any way, or heal amputees.

"My sheep listen to my voice, I know them, and they follow me"(John 10:27)
Only chosen ones (God's children) will know.

You don't have to believe me, but ask other believers, they will say the same thing.
His sheep will know Him and follow Him.
Because we were chosen, and created that way.

[Add Homonym]

That's quite possible, as many Christians have tried to be Christians, and never heard from God. Mother Theresa admitted that she never felt God, but she is about to be made a saint.

How do you know you have faith, vs a Muslim who says the same thing? Do you have proof of your faith, or is it something anyone can just say?

[jetson]

If faith comes from God, where is mine?

[SERPENT KILLA]

If faith comes from God, where is mine?

"IT" comes from God, so you should ask HIM.

[jetson]

If faith comes from God, where is mine?

"IT" comes from God, so you should ask HIM.

Sorry, that's pure bullshit.  Only 1/3 of the world believes in your particular god, so that means 2/3 of the world do not have faith in your god. All gods are imaginary, unless you an show me god, you are just spouting pure imaginary nonsense.

Show me God, now.

[Add Homonym]

Sounds a bit cynical the way the church is wasting nearly everyone's time. They should ask people at the door whether God has chosen them, and if God hasn't, they should be cast out. From what I hear, only a few percent of Christians actually have faith. It sounds as if the church is using canon fodder to spread their message, which doesn't need to be spread, because God is doing it anyway. They just want victims to pay for their church structures an infiltrate the state.

Why is it that when anyone from their congregation asks if they are going to heaven, the answer is "I don't know". Sounds like a scam.

[12 Monkeys]

KILLA go crawl back under your ROCK

[SERPENT KILLA]

Sorry, that's pure bullshit.  Only 1/3 of the world believes in your particular god, so that means 2/3 of the world do not have faith in your god. All gods are imaginary, unless you an show me god, you are just spouting pure imaginary nonsense.

Show me God, now.

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.(Revelaion 6:8 )

And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.(Revelation 9:15)

It's Ok prophecy must be fullfilled.

[Add Homonym]

It's Ok prophecy must be fullfilled.

There you go with evidence, again. You just told us that there was no evidence of God, so what you are showing us must not be evidence. Possibly something that was decided by throwing a dice.

[12 Monkeys]

Sorry, that's pure bullshit.  Only 1/3 of the world believes in your particular god, so that means 2/3 of the world do not have faith in your god. All gods are imaginary, unless you an show me god, you are just spouting pure imaginary nonsense.

Show me God, now.

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.(Revelaion 6:8 )

And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.(Revelation 9:15)

It's Ok prophecy must be fullfilled.

STOP just STOP your preaching........you will be one of the one third he kills because you have FAILED to follow his RULES......yes I mean ALL his rules

[Add Homonym]

If only 1-2% of people are true Christians by faith, then the horsemen will kill 98%. So the prophecy is wrong. Also, the prophecy was expected around 120AD.  Matt 16:28, Mark 9:1


EDIT: Sorry, I just quoted from the Bible, which is not evidence.

[JeffPT]

1)Faith does not come from rational understanding.
2)Faith does not come from objective evidence.
3)Faith does not come from logic or intelligence.
4)Faith does not come from anyone's proof.
5)Faith does not come from scientific explanation.

So let's see here.  Faith is irrational, non-evidence based, illogical, unintelligent, unproven and unscientific.  I couldn't have said it better myself.   

FAITH COMES FROM GOD"So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ"(Romans 10:17)

These are 2 different statements here.  Faith either comes from God, or it comes from hearing about Christ.  The two are totally different things.  So it is our job to use logic and reason to sort this out. 

If faith came from God (implanted like some sort of virus), then everyone around the world would believe in the same God.  Including those who've never read the bible or been told about some 2000 year old dead guy named Jesus.  The fact is, there are millions of people around the world who've never heard of the Christian God, and their faith in the Christian God is completely non-existent.  Moreover, I would wager everything I own that there isn't a single person on the planet who has never of Christianity, yet knows about the Christian God, Jesus, heaven, hell and all that.  If you would like to prove your notion that faith comes from God, then you must produce someone who came to know God and Jesus on their own, with no help from an outside source.  Good luck with that. If you can not produce such a person, then you are forced to admit that the only way you can come about having faith in God is for someone to plant that delusional belief inside your brain.  to 'hear the good news about Christ' from someone else. 

Please tell me where that logic falls apart.   

I've heard the news about Christ.  I don't buy it.  Sorry.  Like you said, it's irrational, illogical and unproven.  Who in their right mind would simply read those words in a book and accept them as true? 

Then why do Christians spread the gospel?

The same reason anyone spreads a religious belief.  Because they really believe it's true.  The unfortunate piece, however, is that it's not true. 

Our job is to spread and proclaim the good news, not to debate or to persuade.

The other reason you don't debate or persuade is because faith in God is irrational, non-evidence based, illogical, unintelligent, unproven and unscientific.  In other words, Christians get completely waxed in debates.  They can't win the actual arguments. 

When I heard the good news, I believed. That's all.

Do you normally believe every irrational, illogical, unintelligent, unproven and unscientific thing you hear? Or just this one?  I would think that an adherence to this practice would make for a very difficult life.   

You are wasting your time if you are truly looking for an answer for evidence of God.
because you will NEVER get it.

We already know.  But you do understand, Serpent Killa, that one possible reason that there is no evidence for God, is that there is no such thing as God?  You get that, right?  That's a very good possibility.  In fact, that is the main reason I doubt Zeus, Thor, Allah, and all the others as well.  And it is probably one of the main reasons you doubt those other gods too, isn't it? 

it's not my guarantee, but seriously, think about it. who, in the history of mankind ever come up with a proof of God's existence?

Nobody has ever come up with proof of ANY god's existence.  Yours included.  How does that notion distinguish your belief from others in any way? 

Why can you not see that this is a very good reason to doubt that God exists?  Just think about what you are saying here.  Your ENTIRE belief system... Your ENTIRE world view is based off of what YOU YOURSELF claim is an irrational, unintelligent, illogical, unproven and unscientific adherence to faith.  Can you really blame us for examining the Christian world view and giggling a little bit?  I mean, come on now.  It's totally ridiculous. 

[kin hell]

Dear Serpent Killa

....before I make any comment about the apparent foolishness of believing because you have been told to believe, let me just welcome you to the forum.

Welcome.


Of course defending the irrational is always going to pose problems of credibility.


Having faith in the Flying Spaghetti Monster "glorious sauce of all goodness" is just stupid because of ............why?

I'm sorry, I missed that?  Why?

Or robbing me (with the best of intentions) of my belief in the easter bunny is the right thing to do because .....why?

And showing how a belief in santa is just ridiculous is easy because santa is an imaginary construct and my belief in santa is different than your belief in god because of .........why?

...........because a book told you to have that belief.

And doing what an unsubstantiated book tells you to do, because the book tells you to is sane and good .....how?

Of course not requiring evidence is fine, but that means you could believe just anything at all at anytime.
It also means that you have no tools to verify that your belief in god has any more truth to it than mine in no god, or that others' belief in other gods is of less veracity than your brand.

And truthfully, if you are willing to get down to that level, then my beliefs have much more going for them. 
I have never ever ever seen any reason to even begin to think there is a god.
Defaults to my position not yours.

Your lack of evidence (required or not), also defaults to my position not yours.

In fact the strangest part is the apparent inability for those who'd wish to present "faith" as a good thing, to see the self-evident questionable fraud in that faith requires you to not seek evidence.

Why the hell would any god belief be scared of an interest or desire for evidence?
 Because the only evidence found by any rational appraisal not blinded by the dogmatic "thou shalt have faith" is evidence of absence, and a book just jam packed with illogic contradictions and irrationality.

This was not meant to be at all unfriendly or unwelcoming.

[jetson]

Sorry, that's pure bullshit.  Only 1/3 of the world believes in your particular god, so that means 2/3 of the world do not have faith in your god. All gods are imaginary, unless you an show me god, you are just spouting pure imaginary nonsense.

Show me God, now.

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.(Revelaion 6:8 )

And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.(Revelation 9:15)

It's Ok prophecy must be fullfilled.

Wow.  Preaching to a moderator?  Brilliant!

[Historicity]

I hate thinking. 
I hate rationality.
It makes my head hurt.
I want to lobootomize myself.
Serpent Killa has shown me a non-surgical technique.
Maybe S.K. or I will have to pick up a knife and stab somebody based on an irrantional impulse.  But that's a small price.

That, or I'll just go to bed and have some dreams.

[Death over Life]

Sorry, that's pure bullshit.  Only 1/3 of the world believes in your particular god, so that means 2/3 of the world do not have faith in your god. All gods are imaginary, unless you an show me god, you are just spouting pure imaginary nonsense.

Show me God, now.

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.(Revelaion 6:8 )

And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.(Revelation 9:15)

It's Ok prophecy must be fullfilled.

Wow! Guess you found me! 

[Emily]

Sorry, that's pure bullshit.  Only 1/3 of the world believes in your particular god, so that means 2/3 of the world do not have faith in your god. All gods are imaginary, unless you an show me god, you are just spouting pure imaginary nonsense.

Show me God, now.

I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.(Revelaion 6:8 )

And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.(Revelation 9:15)

It's Ok prophecy must be fullfilled.

First, the red isn't convincing us.

Second

If faith comes from God, where is mine?

"IT" comes from God, so you should ask HIM.

What will his answer be: something metaphorical like taking a plank out of my eye, or something............ Then again, the bible even implies that Jesus wont give us[1] an answer...

Mathew 13:58:

Now he did not do many mighty works there because of their disbelief.

I don't know. Something about this Jesus character, and his father, doesn't seem right.  The bible makes him sound like someone who does mighty work and who answrs to only those who believe in him to begin with,

1.	by us I mean those who have a disbelief in him

[SERPENT KILLA]

Can you really blame us for examining the Christian world view and giggling a little bit?  I mean, come on now.  It's totally ridiculous.

I won't blame you.
Because I already said.

You don't have to believe me,

I was just telling you my story based on my personal experience which happens to be exactly the same when I ask other believers how they started to believe in God.
It was 'JFYI'

How horrible, we have 2/3 of world's population filled with illogical, irrational, crazy religious people.
Including myself.
No wonder people say 'world is coming to an end'.

[Add Homonym]

No wonder people say 'world is coming to an end'.

People have been saying that the world is coming to an end since the crazies who faked the book of Daniel. Not one year has passed in the last 2000, when Christians have not predicted the end of the world. The Jehovah's Witless Watchtower is organized to continually keep watching for the end; and they tell their kids not to go to university, because the end is nigh. My bro-in-law, when I met him in 1989 was trying to convince me that the [failed] predictions in Daniel were about to bring about the end of the world very shortly, and that the European Union was the ten headed beast. Now, he still carries around DVDs with observations from some other pundit. He just don't get it.

Judaism 600 years
Christianity 2000 years - AND STILLLLLL WAITING.

From what I can gather, you believe about 6 quotes from the Bible. It's wise not believe more than that, because as you believe more, the chances of one contradicting another increases.

BTW, are you going to redeem your first-born by sacrificing a goat? Have you given 10% of your income to the Levites?

[SERPENT KILLA]

BTW, are you going to redeem your first-born by sacrificing a goat? Have you given 10% of your income to the Levites?

Hallelujah!
Jesus came and freed us!
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."(Colossians 2:16)

Is that considered 'preaching' George.?

[Add Homonym]

Jesus came and freed us!

Luke 16:17  And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The people who wrote all the variants of the synoptic gospel resolved Christianity for strict Jews. Paul freed you, not Jesus. But it's OK if you ignore the synotpic Gospels. They are obviously wrong about a lot of things.

[kin hell]

Jesus came and freed us!

Luke 16:17  And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Matt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The people who wrote all the variants of the synoptic gospel resolved Christianity for strict Jews. Paul freed you, not Jesus. But it's OK if you ignore the synotpic Gospels. They are obviously wrong about a lot of things.

more than that SK perhaps you could explain how these text that Add Hom has cited could possibly be read to deny what they say.  Because if you cannot then all your

BTW, are you going to redeem your first-born by sacrificing a goat? Have you given 10% of your income to the Levites?

Hallelujah!
Jesus came and freed us!

is your mistake.

Of course if you want to have your cake and eat it too...........

[Add Homonym]

Matt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I pretty much reckon she should buy a goat, like most Christians, they seem to be teaching that people should ignore some Jewish laws.

I've always wondered how a person could be the least or greatest in heaven, if Christianity is faith-based. Surely, if you have faith, you will be equal to everyone else who got into it. But Jesus teaches that some laws are more important than others.

[30] And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
[31] And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

How can one law be more important than another, if it's faith based?

[29] And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
[30] But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

How can you get 100-fold more stuff in heaven by faith?

[34] And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

How can you be not far from the Kingdom of God, if he has not been told to have faith in Jesus, and Jesus is not dead yet?

[jetson]

The number of Jesus lovers is small compared to the population on the planet.  But when it comes to end of the world people, that's even much much smaller.  Yeah, those people are marginalized nutjobs who always end up looking like idiots when they jump on the end times wagon and ride it into the next day. Surprise, the world is still here.

Religion is sad.

[Anfauglir]

Our job is to spread and proclaim the good news, not to debate or to persuade.

The with the greatest respect....why are you still here, answering questions?  You've proclaimed the news.....by engaging further are you not "debating" or trying further to persuade?

If you leave this forum now and never return, you will be proving the truth of your words quoted above and maybe - just maybe - that may be viewed as a reflection on the truth of everything else you have said.

But if you remain, and continue to debate and try to persuade us....then you will have shown that your words I have quoted above are NOT ture...and maybe - or perhaps a lot more than maybe - that will be viewed as evidence that everything ELSE you said was not true.

[MMcNeely]

Ah, come on Anfauglir don't make her go... I was enjoying reading this.  It started my day off with a smile!

[kcrady]

You are wasting your time if you are truly looking for an answer for evidence of God.
because you will NEVER get it.

Or to put this another way, when it comes to your expectations of how reality will actually behave you are an atheist.  If you believed on the level of anticipated experience, that reality contained a god who could, and in the past, did, overturn the generalized operating principles of Universe, you would not dare make this assertion.  How could you know that your god would not have a New York carriage horse preach a homily on the Book of Jonah right in the middle of Grand Central Station, just to show you and other so-called "believers" who think like you that you don't get to tell him what he can, and cannot do?  As C.S. Lewis put it, he is not a tame Lion.

So, the fact that you, and many other Christians, confidently and without the slightest worry of being proven wrong, tell us that our anticipation of a wholly naturalistic Universe will in fact be validated in our lives and yours, is proof that you don't really believe in a god, not on the level of thinking it could actually show up in reality.  We are left to speculate on why you go around emitting signals to other humans that you believe in a god.

From what you've posted here, it looks like a form of tribal identification.  You're boasting about your membership in the tribe of the Chosen Ones of God and fill yourself with pride because your tribe will come out on top in the sweet bye and bye.  This is just a more verbose way of accomplishing what any troop of baboons does when it encounters another troop. 

You may not believe in Yahweh, but you believe in belief in Yahweh: that having and professing a belief in Yahweh is what makes you good, what makes you special, what gives meaning and purpose to your life.  When you proclaim that faith is devoid of rational understanding, objective evidence, logic or intelligence, proof, or scientific explanation[1]--and then boast that you have it anyway, you are spreading a peacock-tail to show what heroic lengths you'll go to in order to retain membership in your tribe.

Our job is to spread and proclaim the good news, not to debate or to persuade.

Who's "we?"  Your tribe.  This bit of hooting and chest-pounding would probably impress your tribe if they were all arrayed at your back as they would be if we were all on an African savannah.  We're not though, so this particular primate behavior, while useful in its original context, serves no purpose on the internet, and ends up looking a little silly.

The problem with belief-in-belief is that you have to find a way to convince yourself that you have an actual belief in Yahweh.  Admitting that you believe in belief would topple the whole illusion, and you would not get to claim membership in the Chosen Ones tribe anymore.  So, the trick you have to play on yourself, is to structure your conception of Yahweh so that it will exactly match (in terms of anticipated consequences in reality) the non-existence of Yahweh.  And so, you've constructed a Yahweh who never, ever does anything that a purely naturalistic Universe wouldn't do anyway, and who favors the kind of belief-in-belief that you have.

1.	Which amount to all of the tools for understanding and navigating reality that have proven to actually work.