Author Topic: Mary is a Deity  (Read 276 times)

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Offline Nam

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Mary is a Deity
« on: October 04, 2011, 10:03:26 AM »
I just read, in a discussion about atheism at another website[1] that someone there states that "Catholics believe that Mary is a deity".  I've never read nor heard such a thing; not even in the church I attended when I was a Southern Baptist.  I know the church I attended taught that Mary was seen as divine as Jesus[2] but never that she, herself, was seen as a deity by Catholics.

Has anyone here ever heard such a thing?  I even looked on the 'net and couldn't really find anything about it.

-Nam
 1. not going to name website because I've been a member there for 10+ years and I would like it to stay that way -- not implying people here would get me banned from that website but I like keeping separate from one group to the other
 2. equal
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Offline Nick

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2011, 10:12:20 AM »
No, the Catholic Church does not treat Mary as any kind of God.  More like a saint who can intercede for you.  Gosh, if you can't get Jesus' mom to help you you are out of luck.  Some protestant churches have tried to say Catholics worship her but they dont.  She does have a special place for lots of little old ladies.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2011, 10:15:52 AM »
I've heard and read of some protestants referring to her as an idol but not a deity.  I would like to know the various protestant denominations that state that Catholics worship Mary as a deity.

-Nam
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Offline Nick

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2011, 10:23:06 AM »
Can't help you there.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2011, 10:41:54 AM »
I grew up in the Lutheran Church which simultanelously tries to ape the Catholic Church and still assert any differences it can.  My father was a very intellectual Lutheran pastor, big into all that theology jazz. 

In general, the Lutherans and many other protestants consider the Catholic Church's relationship with Mary and the saints to be idolatry.  Early protestantism was founded on the concept that humans can supposedly have a direct communication with Jesus/God, and do not need various holy middle managers interceding. 

In my collegiate days studying literature and history, I learned about many backwaters of the world, in rural Latin America, rural Eastern Europe, etc., where Catholicism is practiced in such a way where an observer could not escape the conclusion that Mary is actually the object of worship. 

That is because in earlier times the Xian missionaries substituted Mary for the fertility goddesses that had been worshipped in these places.  The intellectuals of Catholic Church itself believe that this is in effect happening in these places but as long as people give money and refuse to wear rubbers, the church shrugs it off. 

I often wonder wether it is really possible for the majority of humans to worship and a gaseous, invisible, omniscient, ominipotent being who does not like to be depicted in graven images.  Certainly the Catholic Church has wrestled with this, and that is one of the reasons for the pantheon of saints...saints can be visually depicted, and a human can hold a mental hologram of the saint in his brain...Yahweh is harder to fit into a human brain. 

This leads to the meta-question...all these people who claim they are Xian...what are they really worshipping? A father surrogate? A fertility goddess? (Mary!!!) Do some worship their own ego or Will to Power?

Offline Nam

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2011, 10:46:22 AM »
^Explains a bit more into the whole idea of it but doesn't necessarily point out a specific protestant denomination, or any for that matter, as to those who state such a thing.  However, I did like the second part of your comment.

-Nam
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2011, 10:52:12 AM »
I've heard and read of some protestants referring to her as an idol but not a deity. 

IMO, a dubious distinction.  I recall a commandment (Ex 20:4-5), "You shall not make for yourself any graven image nor bow down to serve them."  Catholic Churches have graven images of Mary, which congregants bow down and pray to. A quibble over the word "serve" no doubt provides the needed "out" for apologists.

Sillyness all the same.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2011, 11:27:52 AM »
the idiots (who also can't design a website to save their supposed souls, so save your eyes) at www.jesus-is-savior.com are quite sure that Catholics worship Mary.  Of course, they are a bunch of typical lying Christians who are quite sure that their way is the only way.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2011, 01:03:01 PM »
Yeah, I agree with what Backspace said...idol vs. goddess, a distinction without a difference.  Also the part about silliness.

Offline Alendar

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2011, 02:00:03 PM »
From my brief research on the Internet, it looks as if the official position of the Catholic church is that Mary was a human being but was without the stain of Original Sin.  She was also preissued her Christianity badge before she was even born.  I haven't looked to see what her relation is to other Saints.   Pope Pius IX defined Mary's place in 1854: "in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin."   The phrase "in view of the merits of Jesus Christ" indicates the evidence they use to support this position.  I interpret this as, "since Christ was the God made manifest, his mother must have been sinless."  I assume that the reasoning was required because there had been some controversy about how God as Man could issue from sinful Woman's womb.  There is some reference in other doctrinal statements that Adam's Sin is passed through our birth, so I can see how this might have been a dilemma for the priests.

The lay people may have other feelings about the Godhood of Mary.  They appear to genuflect at her carved image and make pleas to her.  In deed she appears to be treated as a Deity.  The Monotheistic ideal inherent in Christianity would prevent any official recognition of any one but God as a Deity.  Formal doxology often conflicts with common practice.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm

Offline jtk73

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2011, 04:27:50 PM »
^Explains a bit more into the whole idea of it but doesn't necessarily point out a specific protestant denomination, or any for that matter, as to those who state such a thing.  However, I did like the second part of your comment.

-Nam
I grew up going to church of christ with my parents (similar to baptist but no musical instruments in worship, no dancing, dunking in water required for baptism/being saved, separate little cups of grape juice for that cannibalistic ritual) and I remember many times preachers talking about the catholics committing idolatry (not just for the statues of mary but also of haysoos).

Offline Historicity

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Re: Mary is a Deity
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2011, 04:52:56 PM »
I once looked up "Mariolatry" in the Catholic Encyclopedia.  In the article it said Mary is "a special creation of God".  Not a saint but more like an archangel tho she didn't know it at the time.

BTW, I once saw a prayer that was dictated to Catholic school children in the Nazi era.  There is a question of translation but in the prayer was the line, "We thank thee, oh Lord, for thy special creation, Adolph Hitler."

I have read on the net testimony by a former Catholic former nun who says that despite denials Mary is a goddess.  She cites statues of Mary in Europe where the worshippers have adorned her again and again with jeweled necklaces.  Clearly this is a practice that only makes sense if you are bribing (propitiating) a pagan goddess.  If I find the link again, I'll post it.

...

Okay, I think this is the one I read before.  It's Mary Ann Collins.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/mary_worship_a_study.htm

Here are some of her comments:
Quote
Some statues of Mary have real crowns made of gold.  The ... statues of Our Lady of Fatima and Our Lady of Lourdes wearing crowns.   ...  But the crowns on the original statues at Fatima and Lourdes are real crowns made of real gold.

Vast sums of money are spent on some special statues of Mary.  For example, the statue of Our Lady of the Pillar in Saragossa, Spain has a crown made of 25 pounds of gold and diamonds, with so many diamonds that you can hardly see the gold.  In addition, it has six other crowns of gold, diamonds and emeralds.  It has 365 mantles which are embroidered with gold and covered with roses of diamonds and other precious stones.  It has 365 necklaces made of pearls and diamonds, and six chains of gold set with diamonds.

...

I have personally participated in American processions which honored Mary.  We walked through the streets following a statue of Mary which was carried on a platform, high up where it was clearly visible.  We sang songs in Mary’s honor.  We prayed rosaries and other prayers to her.  ...

One popular prayer in Mary’s honor is the Hail Holy Queen, which is known in Latin as the Salve Regina.  It is traditionally included as part of praying the rosary.
...

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!  Our life, our sweetness and our hope!  To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve.  To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears.  Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.  O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”


« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 05:32:03 PM by Historicity »