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Offline kcrady

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Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« on: October 03, 2011, 07:36:31 AM »
For the sake of discussion, I am going to step into the Christian Narrativetm.  The following should not be taken as an indication that I agree that the entities, places, etc. therein are actually real.

Let us try to imagine Lucifer, at the instant of his very first inklings of rebellion against Almighty Yahweh .  Lucifer is not, at this point, a hideous and loathsome Devil with bat wings, goat's legs, and fangs dripping with blood.  No, in this moment, he is a holy "Covering Cherub," who, until this very moment has led the Angelic choirs in worship and praise of Almighty Yahweh.  In this moment, his relationship with his Creator is completely unhindered.  Heaven and Earth are as yet unmarred by "Sin."  No such thing exists, nor has it entered into anyone's mind.  Yahweh's Kingdom is at its best, holiest, and most perfect.  The Heaven you, dear Christian, hope to enter is broken by comparison.  It is part of a spiritual cosmos forever besmirched by Sin, shared with an everlasting Hell ringing with the tortured cries of the damned.  Yahweh himself is eternally wounded; seething with a wrath that cannot, ever be fully avenged or sated.  There will not ever be a point at which he can quench Hell's flames and forgive or snuff out the wretched souls of its inmates, and say "It is finished!  Never again shall there be suffering!  Let Sin and all its works now be forgotten, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken!"  He.  Can.  Never.  Have.  Peace.

But in the Heaven Lucifer knew, there was nothing but the most sublime perfection Yahweh could create.  Yahweh's rule was at its height, utterly unchallenged; the very idea of opposition having yet to be invented.  Now, it is generally assumed that Lucifer was a high and lofty being indeed, the most gloriously intelligent and perceptive of all Yahweh's creations.  Blessed with pure, direct, unlimited experience of Yahweh himself.  Lucifer at this point was much smarter and more perceptive than you, living in the presence of Yahweh in a way that you cannot imagine.  Where you see through a glass darkly, he saw face to face.  You know Yahweh through reading a book about him, and perhaps through fleeting "feeling of his presence in your heart."  Lucifer knew him personally, walking with him, talking with him in an intimate, direct relationship.  It is the difference between reading a history book about George Washington, and being Martha Washington.

Lucifer must have known what kind of person Yahweh was.  He must have known that Yahweh would brook no opposition or dissent, that the punishment for rebellion would be as horrible as Yahweh's limitless power could make it.  And yet...  And yet...

There came a moment when Lucifer looked around at Yahweh's heavenly kingdom and thought to himself, "I would rather face the certainty of Yahweh's everlasting wrath, than one more moment of this."  How is this possible?  How could he ever want any alternative to Yahweh's rule, if it is as perfect and wonderful as you hope it will be? 

And this is not all, for Lucifer did not rebel alone.  The Book of Revelation tells us that he "drew a third of the stars of heaven" (metaphorically, Angels) down with him.  Remember, these were not foul and malevolent Demons when this happened, but pure, holy, and flawlessly righteous Angels!  Until the moment Lucifer persuaded them to join him.  Lucifer, peeking out from behind a crystal pillar: "Psst.  Azazel...come here...I need to talk to you..."  What could Lucifer have said, to persuade so many of Yahweh's holy Angels to join him in what they must have known would be a futile rebellion leading to infinitely terrifying punishment for them, and the loss of their place in Heaven?

There can be only three possibilities:

1) The Kingdom of Heaven is, in the eyes of beings who lived there, such a nightmarish realm that even Hell is preferable.

2) Lucifer's rebellion is not as futile as Yahweh's earthly propagandists would have you believe.  Lucifer and his followers, with their vastly superior knowledge and experience of Yahweh and his regime, are convinced they can win.

3) Lucifer's rebellion is actually a sham.  He and his "Demons" are running a sting operation as Yahweh's secret police, using entrapment techniques to test human loyalty.  This last is supported by every mention of "Satan" in the Hebrew Scriptures (go ahead: get a concordance, look it up and read the passages), where he is portrayed as an officer of Yahweh's court, permitted to enter said court and accuse humans before Yahweh--not as a mortal enemy of the Heavenly Kingdom.  Even in the New Testament we see many instances of a strangely cooperative Devil and his Demonic hosts.  The Demons Jesus exorcises make it a point to loudly proclaim his Christhood, doing much more to spread his fame and his message than his own disciples.  Satan shows up to put Jesus through a loyalty test in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, then leaves on Jesus' orders.  In John's Gospel, he possesses Judas, on Jesus' orders, and makes him carry out the betrayal that leads to Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross.[1]  He requests permission to "sift" Peter, and his request is granted.[2]  The Apostle Paul invokes him to punish a man, "so that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."[3]

So: Which is it?  Can you provide a plausible fourth alternative?  To save your time and mine, remember, "Satan was just evil" cannot work as an explanation.  At the tipping point where he first began to rebel, he wasn't, not yet, no matter what he might have become in the millennia afterward.
 1. John 13:27
 2. Luke 22:31.
 3. I Corinthians 5:5
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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2011, 07:48:33 AM »
This last is supported by every mention of "Satan" in the Hebrew Scriptures (go ahead: get a concordance, look it up and read the passages),

Done:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H7854&t=KJV


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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2011, 07:54:19 AM »
I think it is the first option, Hell is more preferable than Heaven. If it was a sham (3rd option), it might have been a test to find out how loyal the other angels were to Yahweh. I don't see how it could be a sham if Lucifer rebelled and created Hell for some reason. Maybe Hell is to keep all the sinners out of the world and make them pay by suffering in agony for all eternity and Lucifer is still in league with Yahweh.
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2011, 08:46:36 AM »
IMO, Every story that has a good ending has to have the bad people punshied and the good people rewarded for stoping the bad.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2011, 08:57:16 AM »
Good Stuff  ;)

# 3)  so reminded me of a Mr. Deity episode where he has a heated chat with Lucy(lucifer) about the supposed reality of magic and how it's an extremely important part of the sham and how it's a strong personal belief for the Deity that keeps it quite happy--and in the dark about its creation.

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2011, 09:26:53 AM »
If "going to Hell" means being stuck with Lucy forever....weeeeeellll, let's just say I can imagine worse fates.  8)
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Offline Samuelxcs

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2011, 09:40:39 AM »
Could always war against him. :)
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2011, 10:13:40 AM »
Yahweh's rule was at its height, utterly unchallenged; the very idea of opposition having yet to be invented. 

Lucifer must have known what kind of person Yahweh was.  He must have known that Yahweh would brook no opposition or dissent, that the punishment for rebellion would be as horrible as Yahweh's limitless power could make it.  And yet...  And yet...

There came a moment when Lucifer looked around at Yahweh's heavenly kingdom and thought to himself, "I would rather face the certainty of Yahweh's everlasting wrath, than one more moment of this."  […] and that he "drew a third of the stars of heaven" (metaphorically, Angels) down with him.
Unlikely, no good general contemplates defeat.

Quote
There can be only three possibilities:

1) The Kingdom of Heaven is, in the eyes of beings who lived there, such a nightmarish realm that even Hell is preferable.

2) Lucifer's rebellion is not as futile as Yahweh's earthly propagandists would have you believe.  Lucifer and his followers, with their vastly superior knowledge and experience of Yahweh and his regime, are convinced they can win.
They only thought they had superior knowledge.

Quote
3) Lucifer's rebellion is actually a sham. 

So: Which is it?
None of the above.

Quote
The context of this passage[1](Isaiah) is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.
 1. http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm
But, given the theoretical acceptance of the Bible by the OP:

Isaiah 14:12-14

Common English Bible (CEB)

12 How you’ve fallen from heaven, morning star, son of dawn! You are cut down to earth, helpless on your back!
13 You said to yourself, I will climb up to heaven; above God’s stars, I will raise my throne. I’ll sit on the mount of assembly, on the heights of Zaphon.
14 I’ll go up to the cloud tops; I’ll be like the Most High!


Lucifer simply wanted God’s job because he thought he could benefit more by the position. It does not indicate that Lucifer perceived faults in heaven. He just wanted the power that went with the position.

Even speculating as to faults is pointless; whether there were faults or no, we do not know – it could well have been that Lucifer had got it wrong, that he had misunderstood a few things.

Look on it as the start of the 2 party system; a system devoid of God’s seal of approval.

Vote Palin for a theocracy.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Historicity

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2011, 10:18:05 AM »
Oh, you foul Christians who have contaminated His word!  God had to send a prophet to tell you people what really happened.  Behold!
Quote
SURA 7
When thy Lord said to the angels, "I am about to make man of clay, And when I have formed him and breathed my spirit into him, then worshipping fall down before him." And the angels prostrated themselves, all of them with one accord, save Eblis. He swelled with pride, and became an unbeliever.

"O Eblis," said God, "what hindereth thee from prostrating thyself before him whom my hands have made? Is it that thou are puffed up with pride? or art thou a being of lofty merit?"

He said: "I am more excellent than he; me hast thou created of fire: of clay hast thou created him."

He said: "Begone then hence: thou art accursed, And lo! my ban shall be on thee till the day of the reckoning."

He said: "O my Lord! respite me till the day of Resurrection."

He said, "One then of the respited shalt thou be, till the day of the time appointed."

He said: "I swear by thy might then that all of them will I seduce, except Thy sincere servants among them."

He said: "It is truth, and the truth I speak. From thee will I surely fill Hell, and with such of them as shall follow thee, one and all."

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2011, 10:26:59 AM »
For the sake of discussion, I am going to step into the Christian Narrativetm.  The following should not be taken as an indication that I agree that the entities, places, etc. therein are actually real..........................

  What could Lucifer have said, to persuade so many of Yahweh's holy Angels to join him in what they must have known would be a futile rebellion leading to infinitely terrifying punishment for them, and the loss of their place in Heaven?

There can be only three possibilities:

1) The Kingdom of Heaven is, in the eyes of beings who lived there, such a nightmarish realm that even Hell is preferable.

2) Lucifer's rebellion is not as futile as Yahweh's earthly propagandists would have you believe.  Lucifer and his followers, with their vastly superior knowledge and experience of Yahweh and his regime, are convinced they can win.

3) Lucifer's rebellion is actually a sham.  He and his "Demons" are running a sting operation as Yahweh's secret police, using entrapment techniques to test human loyalty.  This last is supported by every mention of "Satan" in the Hebrew Scriptures (go ahead: get a concordance, look it up and read the passages), where he is portrayed as an officer of Yahweh's court, permitted to enter said court and accuse humans before Yahweh--not as a mortal enemy of the Heavenly Kingdom.  Even in the New Testament we see many instances of a strangely cooperative Devil and his Demonic hosts.  The Demons Jesus exorcises make it a point to loudly proclaim his Christhood, doing much more to spread his fame and his message than his own disciples.  Satan shows up to put Jesus through a loyalty test in cooperation with the Holy Spirit, then leaves on Jesus' orders.  In John's Gospel, he possesses Judas, on Jesus' orders, and makes him carry out the betrayal that leads to Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross.[1]  He requests permission to "sift" Peter, and his request is granted.[2]  The Apostle Paul invokes him to punish a man, "so that the spirit might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."[3]

So: Which is it?  Can you provide a plausible fourth alternative?  To save your time and mine, remember, "Satan was just evil" cannot work as an explanation.  At the tipping point where he first began to rebel, he wasn't, not yet, no matter what he might have become in the millennia afterward.
 1. John 13:27
 2. Luke 22:31.
 3. I Corinthians 5:5

For what it's worth, of the three choiced listed, I like 3 the best as it makes the most sense and seems to have the most textual support. But you asked for a 4th option, so I'll try to supply one for discussion's sake.

4. Lucifer was a man or title ascribed to certain human rulers and not a reference to the satan. The devil, or the satan, if one prefers never actually rebelled against God or sought to be God's enemy, so instead of being God's enemy, the satan(s) actually had issues with mankind and sought to bring down man in the sight of God seeking to prove to God that man was not worthy of the glory and honor God intended on bestowing on man.   

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2011, 11:36:33 AM »
After reading some of the post on this thread and reading another thread about free will in Heaven, it made me think that GoD would of known he was planing something since he is all knowing and everything else. So to allow him to rebel would be an act of free will in heaven instead of slamming the rebellion he allowed it to happen.

Quote
4. Lucifer was a man or title ascribed to certain human rulers and not a reference to the satan. The devil, or the satan, if one prefers never actually rebelled against God or sought to be God's enemy, so instead of being God's enemy, the satan(s) actually had issues with mankind and sought to bring down man in the sight of God seeking to prove to God that man was not worthy of the glory and honor God intended on bestowing on man.

Ezekiel 28 12-19
This passage is the most complete "biography: of Lucifer in the Bible. The passage is outwardly addressed to the "King of Tyrus," an earthly king, but the language indicates that more than earthly realities are represented. Lucifer has used human agents whenever possible in his war against the kingdom of GoD. Ezekiel, with prophetic insight, sees through this human agent to the real source of activities against GoD's people.


« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 11:39:17 AM by violatedsmurf80 »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2011, 11:48:37 AM »
Ezekiel 28 12-19
This passage is the most complete "biography: of Lucifer in the Bible. The passage is outwardly addressed to the "King of Tyrus," an earthly king, but the language indicates that more than earthly realities are represented. Lucifer has used human agents whenever possible in his war against the kingdom of GoD. Ezekiel, with prophetic insight, sees through this human agent to the real source of activities against GoD's people.

I hear what you're saying, but it don't sound very "smurfy" to me and the biggest reason is because the TITLE of Lucifer was not even employed in Ezekiel's description. I guess one could read the Devil into this chapter, but doing so does not prove this was speaking of the Devil. In addition, if it could be proved that this was addressed to the Devil and not just the human ruler(s) of Tyre, then one still has to come up with why the Devil is Lucifer and how Isaiah 14 is even related to Ezekiel 28 which reads:

Quote
1 And the word of the Lord came to me saying, 2 'And you, O son of man; Say this to the ruler of Tyre! Tell him that thus says Jehovah: You have made your heart haughty, and you said that you are a God, for you dwell among the gods of the sea! Yet, you are a man not a god, but you made your heart that of a god.

3 'Are you also wiser than DaniEl… didn't the wise teach you wisdom? 4 Was it intelligence or wisdom that brought you to power… when you got treasures of silver and gold? 5 Was it wisdom or trading that brought you to power… that made your heart haughty because of your strength?

6 'It's due to this, says Jehovah; Since you've made your heart as that of a God; {Look!} I'll bring strange pests from the nations upon you, 7 and they'll empty their swords out against you… against the beauty of your wisdom, and they'll spread your beauty to destruction. 8 They'll cut you down and you'll die, the death of the slain in the heart of the sea.

9 'Will you say you're a god to those who'll destroy you? For, you'll be just a man not a god, in the hands of those who will stab you. 10 Among the uncircumcised you'll die… by the hands of those who are strangers. For, I have spoken, says Jehovah.'

11 And the word of the Lord came to me saying, 12 'O son of man; Speak this lamentation to the ruler of Tyre. Tell him that thus says Jehovah:

'Yours is the image on a seal;
Full of wisdom and a crown of great beauty.
13 You live in the luxury of the paradise of gods,
And every precious gem you have owned…
Sardinus, topaz, and emeralds;
Onyx, sapphires, and jasper;
Silver, gold, amber, and agate;
Amethysts, chrysolite, and beryl.
Your treasuries are filled with onyx and gold,
As are all your storehouses.

14 'From the day that you were created,
For you, a cherub was prepared;
You were anointed by God,
And you stayed in [His] Tent.
I set you on God's Holy Mountain,
And among stones of fire you existed.

15 'Back in your days you were perfect…
Yes, from the day that you were created,
Until you were found guilty.

16 'From the abundance of your trade your storerooms were filled,
Then you became lawless and sinned.
So, you were removed from the mountain of God (from the midst of the stones of fire),
And the cherub over you was removed.

17 'Because of your beauty your heart was exalted,
And your beauty and wisdom were corrupted by sins.
So I tossed you down to the ground,
As an example to [other] kings.

18 'Because of the multitude of your sins,
And the ways you have failed in your tradings,
You have profaned all your temples.
So, I will send fire into your midst;
I'll burn you and turn you to ash,
Before all of those who can see you.
19 Then, all the nations will be saddened by you,
For you were destroyed and lost through the age.'


To me, I see no Devil, only a king that got a bit too big for his royal britches.

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2011, 12:07:13 PM »
Quote
I hear what you're saying, but it don't sound very "smurfy" to me and the biggest reason is because the TITLE of Lucifer was not even employed in Ezekiel's description. I guess one could read the Devil into this chapter, but doing so does not prove this was speaking of the Devil. In addition, if it could be proved that this was addressed to the Devil and not just the human ruler(s) of Tyre, then one still has to come up with why the Devil is Lucifer and how Isaiah 14 is even related to Ezekiel 28 which reads:

In Isaiah 14, we find an announcement of judgment against the king of Babylon and in Ezekiel 28 it was Tyre. They both were talking about Kings of a certain area. He, that of the darkness, has many name but to choose Lucifer was the same as Satan. If i used Angel of light as it was used in 2 Corinthians 11:14, or even Apollyon as used in Revelation 9:11 you would not know who I was talking about, but Lucifer, as with Satan you know who i was talking regardless if it was used in Ezekiel description. 

Quote
To me, I see no Devil, only a king that got a bit too big for his royal britches.

You and I see the same thing, in the biblical days you couldn't talk against a king or anything so what better way to talk about him then comparing him to something mythical.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 12:31:49 PM by violatedsmurf80 »
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Offline kardula

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2011, 02:00:48 PM »
Good Stuff  ;)

# 3)  so reminded me of a Mr. Deity episode where he has a heated chat with Lucy(lucifer) about the supposed reality of magic and how it's an extremely important part of the sham and how it's a strong personal belief for the Deity that keeps it quite happy--and in the dark about its creation.

!

So you're saying I should worship Penn and Teller instead...now that's a religion that sounds like fun.

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2011, 02:31:18 PM »
Don't forget that Yahweh created everything to His design.

Yahweh has a divine plan for eveything.

Yahweh created the devil and decided what path he will follow according to his divine plan.

Lucifer rebelled because God desgined and planned it that way.

<sigh> Christians are so stupid :(

Hasa Diga Eebowai

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2011, 10:25:10 PM »
I admit ignorance.  Where in the Bible is the story found of the Satan's rebellion and fall from heaven? 

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2011, 12:04:25 AM »
The story is Revelation, chapter 12.

Otherwise, the bible makes no mention of it until that point.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2011, 07:44:50 AM »
Unlikely, no good general contemplates defeat.

If Lucifer is to be considered a good (or even mediocre) general, then he must have had reason to think that victory was possible.  In the context of the Christian Narrativetm, where Yahweh is omniscient and omnipotent--and Lucifer, living in his direct presence, must have known this--he could not have been able to contemplate anything but defeat.  So, either: 1) the Christian Narrativetm, being a construct of Yahweh's earthly propagandists, is no more reliable than Pravda's reports of Soviet productivity; or 2) Lucifer rebelled even though he knew he had no chance of victory.

None of the above.

Quote
The context of this passage[1](Isaiah) is a referral to the king of Babylon as presented in his pride, splendor and fall. However, it is to the power behind the evil Babylonian king that this is actually addressed. No mortal king would claim that his throne was above that of God or that he was like the Most High. The power behind the evil Babylonian king is Lucifer, Son of the Morning.
 1. http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm
But, given the theoretical acceptance of the Bible by the OP:

For clarity, I did not mean to indicate unconditional acceptance of the Bible or the Christian Narrativetm (the two are not the same) in the OP.  I was trying to explain that in the act of stepping into the Christian Narrativetm to discuss things like Lucifer's motivations, what he would have known, etc. I was not expressing actual belief in the real existence of Lucifer, Yahweh, etc..  Since the OP was addressed to Christians, I felt it necessary to spell that out, since they often have difficulty dealing with a literary critique of the Bible-as-story (such as an argument that Yahweh is legitimately the villain of the piece) without imputing actual belief in Yahweh's existence to the critic.   

>snip<
Lucifer simply wanted God’s job because he thought he could benefit more by the position. It does not indicate that Lucifer perceived faults in heaven. He just wanted the power that went with the position.

This only makes sense if Lucifer--having a far better vantage point for observation and knowledge of Yahweh's nature than any faithful believer on Earth, whose understanding comes from the say-so of other humans such as Biblical authors and theologians--believed himself to be facing a king that could be successfully supplanted in a palace coup.  This cannot be reconciled with the Christian Narrative[2] which assures us that Yahweh is omnipotent and invincible, and that his rule is so perfect no one will seek any alternative after the credits roll at the end of the Book of Revelation. 

Even speculating as to faults is pointless; whether there were faults or no, we do not know – it could well have been that Lucifer had got it wrong, that he had misunderstood a few things.

Perhaps, but the point is that he had an incomparably better vantage point than any Christian believer on Earth can hope for in this life.  He was an eyewitness to Yahweh's kingdom at its height, and to the nature and attributes of Yahweh himself, from the perspective of an initially "perfect," sin-free relationship with him.  As such he was (at the initial time of his rebellion) inherently more credible than any human Biblical author, theologian, or believer.  Even now, the only source we have for claims of his having degraded to a state of limitless corruption is Yahweh's propaganda ministry.

Look on it as the start of the 2 party system; a system devoid of God’s seal of approval.

Well of course, God only approves of the Republican party.  "GOP" stands for "God's Own Party," doesn't it?

Vote Palin for a theocracy.

Hasn't she been more or less supplanted by an even more special little snowflake of Yahweh's, Michelle "Crazy Eyes" Bachman?  Or, given the Bible's propensity to teach that a penis is an inherent requirement to hold any position of power or authority, perhaps Rick Perry or Ann Coulter would be Yahweh's choice.
 2. tm
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2011, 08:20:19 AM »
The only information we have about Lucifer is in Isaiah 14. This information suggests that Lucifer is highly disorientated, since he was hacked down to the ground, for wanting to ascend to heaven.

Typical of Christian ideas, the previous position of Lucifer is determined by one word: "heaven", in verse 12, where it is assumed that the "heaven" in the following verse is the same heaven; largely because stone age peasants believed that God lived somewhere above the clouds. It can be seen, conceptually, that the day star could only be metaphorically hacked down from the spacial heavens, whereas Lucifer would aspire to be wherever God was (in Quantum E-space heavens). Isaiah 14 does not give a hint as to why Lucifer would be cut down at the same time as the Babylonian king. I'd like to also know how Lucifer defeated nations; destroy, yes; tempt, yes; but defeat? I don't know. Which ones?

One can only come to the conclusion that Isaiah offers no information about Satan, besides Christian say-so, which is always correct, irrespective of any real evidence, so I don't know why they require Isaiah to back them up. I think Genesis 1 supplies the same information, if you re-arrange all the words in a special way.

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2011, 09:16:54 AM »
Kcrady,,,,he did not even realize the snake was in the Garden,or he did not care......so much for ommni-everything
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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2011, 09:20:09 AM »
Bad is good, and good is bad.  And Wednesday is hump day.  That's all one needs to know.

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2011, 09:07:09 PM »
The story is Revelation, chapter 12.

Otherwise, the bible makes no mention of it until that point.

Here are the first 9 verses of Revelation 12 (NIV translation):

1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

So, up until the birth of Jesus the Christ, the Satan was in heaven?  So was the Satan committing evil on the earth while being in heaven?  Where is this name of Lucifer found in the Bible?

Ever curious,

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« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 09:11:30 PM by OldChurchGuy »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2011, 10:09:45 PM »
Lucifer/Yahweh...two sides of the same coin.
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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2011, 06:43:50 AM »
Quote
1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. 2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. 4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. 5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”[a] And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. 6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.
 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

So, up until the birth of Jesus the Christ, the Satan was in heaven?  So was the Satan committing evil on the earth while being in heaven?  Where is this name of Lucifer found in the Bible?


I read some where that satan was cast out of heaven pior to the fall of adam and eve. I think that it false though, I think that  John is talking about another ruler of there time. The name Lucifer appears only once in the Bible in Isa. 14:12.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2011, 07:35:48 AM »
Here are the first 9 verses of Revelation 12 (NIV translation):

An interesting passage, as it seems to support the "mythicist" view of Christ: there is no earthly biography (ministry of teaching and miracle-working, earthly parents, no disciples, no Cross on Calvary's hill) between the birth of the Child, and his being "snatched up to God."  Furthermore, there are no parallels to the Dragon spitting out a flood, the earth opening up to swallow the flood, or the Woman fleeing into the wilderness for 1,260 days in the Gospels. 

So, up until the birth of Jesus the Christ, the Satan was in heaven?  So was the Satan committing evil on the earth while being in heaven?

Heh, an interesting question for Christians operating within the "orthodox" Narrative.

Where is this name of Lucifer found in the Bible?

Clever trick question. :)  IIRC, "Lucifer" was inserted as translation for the Hebrew word "heylel," meaning Morning Star (a reference to Venus) by St. Jerome.  In the Hebrew it is a title or epithet rather than a proper name.

Ever curious,

A good thing to be. ;)
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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2011, 08:35:11 AM »
according to strongs' online, Lucifer occurs once in the KJV.

And it was indeed a replacement for heylel
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2011, 02:18:27 PM »
There's probably as many possible explanations as there are stars.

One thing to consider, though.  Most Christians consider Satan/Lucifer to be the Prince of Lies.  And there is no more effective lie than in telling only part of the truth (and the next most is to mix some of the truth with a plausible lie).  Going from a Christian perspective, the most effective way to screw with God's plan would be to mislead his followers into confusing good for evil and evil for good.  Nothing so boring as confusing individual followers, either...go right to the source, change the Bible before it's written (by misleading or confusing the original writers), then claim the whole thing is the perfect expression of God's will.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2011, 06:59:06 PM »
If that is the explanation you would like to use, then you[1] cannot trust anything.  The bible, your senses, your logic and reason, voices in your head claiming to be jeus - everything - could be the devil trying to deceive you.  And if that is the case, then god isn't good, leaving you in complete darkness.
 1. hypothetical you.  I know you aren't a xian who believes that.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Christians: Why Did Lucifer Rebel?
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2011, 10:30:55 PM »
One thing to consider, though.  Most Christians consider Satan/Lucifer to be the Prince of Lies.  And there is no more effective lie than in telling only part of the truth (and the next most is to mix some of the truth with a plausible lie).  Going from a Christian perspective, the most effective way to screw with God's plan would be to mislead his followers into confusing good for evil and evil for good.  Nothing so boring as confusing individual followers, either...go right to the source, change the Bible before it's written (by misleading or confusing the original writers), then claim the whole thing is the perfect expression of God's will.

Reminds me of a Chic publication I read once upon a time.

Seriously, I used to mow the yards of my various family members when I was a teen. I can remember at one point, when I did not have head phones, church songs running through my head as I mowed. At another point, when I had head phones, it was the Beatles White album. There were other bands of course but always, it was a time of meditation...contemplation.

I remember one time having the thought that Satan, being the "Father of Lies" and all,  had subverted the whole Christ story. More than that though, that Satan was in fact the Christ character, come to lead us all astray from the teachings of God and the Bible.

Later I read a Chic publication that mentioned Masons. How they worshiped Lucifer as the Grand Architect of the Universe and how just being related by birth to a Mason subjected you to Lucifers power and influence from birth. Turns out, my grandfather[1] was not only a Mason but also a Templar Knight.

If that is the explanation you would like to use, then you[2] cannot trust anything.  The bible, your senses, your logic and reason, voices in your head claiming to be jeus - everything - could be the devil trying to deceive you.  And if that is the case, then god isn't good, leaving you in complete darkness.
 2. hypothetical you.  I know you aren't a xian who believes that.

Yup...that is the general sum of how I felt throughout my mid teens to early twenties. Throw in a dash of solipsism and a heaping helping of LSD and Mary Jane add a few decades, a trip to the gulf to fight in a war I don't believe is necessary and a wife and three kids whom I love dearly and you get...jaybwell32.
 1. whose yard I was mowing when I had the thought about the lie of Christ.
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