Why does God hide himself?

[violatedsmurf80]

How many time do Christians argue that the "bible" is the only one true bible without knowing about the others before it....

Quite often since Bill Maar got debunked for his idiotic comparisons between Jesus and Zoroaster.

Let me guess, time travel right...no one can bebunk anything about a myth it is only an aussumption.

[screwtape]

Moses and Jacob are the "bi-une" Both two people and yet one. Jacob is Moses' son/grandson/cousin twice removed but they prophesied as one.  Therefore anything that Jacob did, Moses did. It was Moses inside of Jacob that did it, because they are the same.

I've not heard this idea before.  Where did you hear about it and where can I learn more?

So I am still correct and your biblical criticism of me has been completely pawned.

"pwned", not "pawned".   And that is SO ten years ago.

[Brakeman]

Moses and Jacob are the "bi-une" Both two people and yet one. Jacob is Moses' son/grandson/cousin twice removed but they prophesied as one.  Therefore anything that Jacob did, Moses did. It was Moses inside of Jacob that did it, because they are the same.

I've not heard this idea before.  Where did you hear about it and where can I learn more?

I usually make it up as I go, I'm just waiting for someone else to try and correct me so I can twist and wiggle with it in the same way the new testament authors twisted to make jesus god in the "Tri-une."

"pwned", not "pawned".   And that is SO ten years ago.

Language can be retro too, just like bell bottom jeans and beads..  Cool Dude!

[whatchamean?]

Excavations headed by archaeologists, historians and others, notably Kathleen Kenyon in the 1950's and historian Neil Asher Silberman all concluded that there were NEVER walls around Jericho.

Walls around Jericho were uncovered as early as the 1930's and Kenyon was well aware of them, but unlike the archaeologist (John Garstang) who uncovered them, Kenyon dated the site to a later time period than Joshua, which is why she believed "there were never walls around Jericho" (at the time of Joshua) and there are good arguments why her dating was off.

When researching a subject, you should really try to read more than a couple lines about it.

Never mind the fact that Jericho didn't even exist at the time of the supposed attacks carried out by Israelites[/b] blowing on trumpets made out of donkey bladder.

conservapedia.com/Jericho_chronology_dispute

There is no evidence of an entire horde of people walking around in the desert aimlessly for 40 freaking years. There is no evidence of the drowning of an entire Egyptian army nor a crossing of the Red Sea.

Given the circumstances coupled with the time period and the fact that the Israelites never built permanent structures, why would there be?

There is absolutely no evidence outside of the Bible that claim Jews were whipped and forced to work.

Scholars can't agree who the Pharaoh was at the time of Moses, so there is or isn't. One thing is clear though. I have seen no evidence of free thinking among atheists since I've been here.

What does this mean? Who should I visit? And to what purposes should I visit the unspecified people? How is this related to you not even giving proof that the similarities between these religious figures are fake?

Oh....you're serious about not knowing that Billy got his ass kicked after he decided to read a couple lines from wiki about Zoro and deliver his misinformation to the masses as fact. That's really old news. It may not even be on the web anymore.

Also I really doubt that you've even stepped outside into the real world and met others from different cultures and regions.
Been to a Buddhist monastery? Traveled to Bhutan? Experienced the various foods of Asia? Talked with people from different countries in the world that you never heard of?
Seen violent deaths occur? Ever held starving children? Ever seen the results of a genocide up close? Ever seen people struggle in their lives to the point that they take nothing for granted and survive on piss and tree bark?
No?
Fuck you then.

Actually, it's yes to about half of your questions. For people who tout themselves as openminded, you are pathetic.

[violatedsmurf80]

Scholars can't agree who the Pharaoh was at the time of Moses, so there is or isn't.

Raamses itself has also been found inscribed on a burial tomb painting from Pharaoh
Amenhotep III, so because he had a nick name they are they cant agree?

[screwtape]

Walls around Jericho were uncovered as early as the 1930's and Kenyon was well aware of them, but unlike the archaeologist (John Garstang) who uncovered them, Kenyon dated the site to a later time period than Joshua, which is why she believed "there were never walls around Jericho" (at the time of Joshua) and there are good arguments why her dating was off.

Not really. Mainly scholars who are wide-eyed believers emotionally invested in biblical literalism disagree with Kenyon.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16852.msg452552.html#msg452552

[C]

Actually, it's yes to about half of your questions. For people who tout themselves as openminded, you are pathetic.

Only half? Pathetic. Just fucking pathetic.

Also, when did I ever say I am "openminded"? I will say it again: I fucking hate Christians like you who don't contribute shit to the forum, much less society. Kthx.

You clearly don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. I grew out of Christianity but you have yet to even wake the fuck up and look at reality but instead you look to a book, written by idiots who thought bats were birds and that a man could live inside a giant fucking fish for 3 days, for "guidance".

You have shown me clearly that the only time I should spend addressing you should consist of insulting you or being bemused by your laziness to provide ultimate lack of evidence. I have serious doubts about you even ever getting close to actually debating or discussing with one of us on the forums.

When researching a subject, you should really try to read more than a couple lines about it.

LOL. This is fucking hilarious coming from you.

Given the circumstances coupled with the time period and the fact that the Israelites never built permanent structures, why would there be?

Two things:

1) According to your precious Bible, they did build shit, some of which should have remained you silly fuck.
2) Where are the remnants of the Egyptian army in the Red Sea, you dumb fuck?

Scholars can't agree who the Pharaoh was at the time of Moses, so there is or isn't. One thing is clear though. I have seen no evidence of free thinking among atheists since I've been here.

Jesus fucking Christ.

[velkyn]

Given the circumstances coupled with the time period and the fact that the Israelites never built permanent structures, why would there be?

Because even with no permanemnt structures, we still find artifacts.  I’ve personally worked on archaeological sites from Native American civilizations where they didn’t have “permanent” structures and where there are plenty of artifacts, including a full burial.  Hmmm, should we guess that not one of the millions of Israelites died in the *40 years* they were wandering around?  That they didn’t break one pot or shit in one latrine in that 4 decades? 

There is absolutely no evidence outside of the Bible that claim Jews were whipped and forced to work.

Scholars can't agree who the Pharaoh was at the time of Moses, so there is or isn't. One thing is clear though. I have seen no evidence of free thinking among atheists since I've been here.

Funny how the Egytptians went out of their way to not mention having millions and millions of slaves in any of their writings or monuments.  Or any massive plagues. And gee, how odd that no other countries around Egypt took advantage of the country having lost its whole army and a huge proportion of its population!  And love to see the usual baseless claim, whatcha.  Repeating a baseless lie doesn’t make it true.  You see, “free thought” means looking at the facts with no presuppositions, unlike Christians who will us any excuse for the lack of any evidence for the claims of their holy book.  We have a pretty good line of who was pharaoh when and surprise, Christians (and Jews) want to play “let’s be vague on when this could have been”.   This is the same with the Noah flood, how old the universe is, and similar to how conveniently Jews lost the ark of the covenant and how Christians can’t figure out where their supposed savior was buried and raised, a rather important event.   

Whatcha, your willful ignorance is amazing and so easy to demonstrate.  However, it can be cured by just a little education. 

[whatchamean?]

Also, when did I ever say I am "openminded"?

Hey, I think we can finally agree on something!!! 

[C]

Also, when did I ever say I am "openminded"?

Hey, I think we can finally agree on something!!! 

Hey..yeah! I'm totally open-minded towards everything and everyone except idiots like you! Yay~

[whatchamean?]

Only half? Pathetic. Just fucking pathetic.

What's pathetic is you could have asked those questions of any member on this board and it wouldn't matter is they couldn't answer yes to any of them, as long as they were atheists. Sad thing is, you can't see your own injustice.

[Hatter23]

Also, when did I ever say I am "openminded"?

Hey, I think we can finally agree on something!!! 

Hey..yeah! I'm totally open-minded towards everything and everyone except idiots like you! Yay~

Said it before, Whatcha's a troll.

[C]

Only half? Pathetic. Just fucking pathetic.

What's pathetic is you could have asked those questions of any member on this board and it wouldn't matter is they couldn't answer yes to any of them, as long as they were atheists. Sad thing is, you can't see your own injustice.

In the first place, I wouldn't ask them since they're not oblivious to the suffering in the world like you are.

Secondly, I was asking YOU. And you just answered "Half". So I will take it upon myself to note that you've never actually experienced or witnessed actual suffering that doesn't get solved by your shitty god.

Thirdly, it's funny how you're still carrying yourself around the forums like you're dignified. Stupid and willfully ignorant, are you proud of this?

[C]

Whatcha, I must congratulate you, really.

A) For making Christians look bad.

Thanks for that, and

B) Providing laughs and a bunch of bullshit to fill enough cesspools in all of Medieval Europe.


This is a summary of your time here:



And really, the longer you stay here, it's just going to be continuing all of the above.

Since you seem to have trouble with addressing like, 10 points, with evidence, failing to actually discuss or debate on a coherent and intellectual level and since you're replying back to multiple people, how about we start on ONE point between you and me? Or we can even create a new thread where we can keep all of our "discussions" there.

The Question, which we've touched on before and you only said "nephilim" as evidence:

Is the story of Noah's Ark true?

If yes, provide actual evidence. Don't dodge. I can wait as long as you want.

If no, then why is it not true as said in the Bible?

[whatchamean?]

Said it before, Whatcha's a troll.

Apparently a troll who (unlike C and the rest of the atheists here) has never met the Dalai Lama.

[Roq]

Since god precedes everything else in the universe and is and has always been eternal and perfect, it follows that god's existence precedes the invention of clothes. Further, since god was already perfect before the invention of clothes it follows that wearing clothes could not result in a greater perfection. Consequently, god doesn't wear any clothes and is naked. So that's why god hides himself.   

[velkyn]

Since god precedes everything else in the universe and is and has always been eternal and perfect, it follows that god's existence precedes the invention of clothes. Further, since god was already perfect before the invention of clothes it follows that wearing clothes could not result in a greater perfection. Consequently, god doesn't wear any clothes and is naked. So that's why god hides himself.   

So God's embarassed?

[Hatter23]

Since god precedes everything else in the universe and is and has always been eternal and perfect, it follows that god's existence precedes the invention of clothes. Further, since god was already perfect before the invention of clothes it follows that wearing clothes could not result in a greater perfection. Consequently, god doesn't wear any clothes and is naked. So that's why god hides himself.   

So God's embarassed?

Yeah his weiner totally turtled now that there's Iron Chariots everywhere. The one thing mentioned you have a problem with, and there's aproximately 722 million of them now. Gotta give an ALMOST Omnipotent being a complex.

[velkyn]

thanks Hatter.  My keyboard really needed that coffee splurted into it 

[jaimehlers]

One thing is clear though. I have seen no evidence of free thinking among atheists since I've been here.

You're half right.  You haven't seen, but that's because you haven't really looked.

I looked over your posting history, and here's the threads you've posted in:

• General Religious Discussion -> Noah's flood...again
• General Religious Discussion -> Why does God hide himself?
• General Religious Discussion -> Question
• Evolution & Creationism -> The In Betweens

In other words, four threads total, three of them in the same forum, over the period of a month's time.  So how can you honestly say that you've actually looked for evidence of free-thinking among atheists when all of your activity has been concentrated in such a narrow spread of topics?

[Hatter23]

One thing is clear though. I have seen no evidence of free thinking among atheists since I've been here.

You're half right.  You haven't seen, but that's because you haven't really looked.

I looked over your posting history, and here's the threads you've posted in:

• General Religious Discussion -> Noah's flood...again
• General Religious Discussion -> Why does God hide himself?
• General Religious Discussion -> Question
• Evolution & Creationism -> The In Betweens

In other words, four threads total, three of them in the same forum, over the period of a month's time.  So how can you honestly say that you've actually looked for evidence of free-thinking among atheists when all of your activity has been concentrated in such a narrow spread of topics?

When I was growing up being told you need to be open minded meant to abandon your preconceptions and look at the evidence. Apparently it now means abandoned the evidence and accept my preconceptions.

 

[screwtape]

• General Religious Discussion -> Noah's flood...again

I split that one off from another, ongoing thread because it was off topic and seemed like it might be headed into a full-blown conversation.  Just sayin'.  That makes 3 threads in which he's actually participated.

[Historicity]

How did Moses(?) wrestle with god if he couldn't see him. If it was a tie before God cheated, then Moses was definitely stronger than god if he beat him in a wrestling match when god was invisible!

Moses never wrestled with God.
Jacob wrestled a man that was supposed to be God, and he saw him face to face.

NO, JACOB WRESTLED WITH AN ANGEL.

I have proof of it:  That's what I was taught in parochial school.  Which parochial school?  Why, the parochial school of the One True Religion.  How do I know it was the One True Religion?  Well, it was our church and we were right.  So there.

[Historicity]

Since god precedes everything else in the universe and is and has always been eternal and perfect, it follows that god's existence precedes the invention of clothes. Further, since god was already perfect before the invention of clothes it follows that wearing clothes could not result in a greater perfection. Consequently, god doesn't wear any clothes and is naked. So that's why god hides himself.   

So God's embarassed?

I looked for a quote from the Koran a day or 2 ago but I couldn't think of a key word.  As I remember it, the God persona of the Koran[1] says that indeed He could incarnate as a man but he did not because it would have been unseemly and undignified.

Or maybe as in South Park his true form is a big ugly purple dog.

1.	The Koran has 3 personas speaking: God, Gabriel and Mohammed.  Pious Moslem scholars agreed on that a thousand years ago.

[changeling]

How did Moses(?) wrestle with god if he couldn't see him. If it was a tie before God cheated, then Moses was definitely stronger than god if he beat him in a wrestling match when god was invisible!

Moses never wrestled with God.
Jacob wrestled a man that was supposed to be God, and he saw him face to face.

NO, JACOB WRESTLED WITH AN ANGEL.

I have proof of it:  That's what I was taught in parochial school.  Which parochial school?  Why, the parochial school of the One True Religion.  How do I know it was the One True Religion?  Well, it was our church and we were right.  So there.

You could be right Historicity, who am I to argue with the parochial school of the one true religion.
Jacob, however , thought it was God that he wrestled with, and God couldn't keep his hands off of his thighs.
But these religious nuts are all delusional.

Gen 32:30   And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 

[Anfauglir]

Gen 32:30   And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

There is a Peniel Academy in Brentwood (UK) for the education of young boys.

[screwtape]

You could be right Historicity, who am I to argue with the parochial school of the one true religion.
Jacob, however , thought it was God that he wrestled with, and God couldn't keep his hands off of his thighs.

It is ambiguous.  It depends on the bible translation you use.  It says god, but not all translations say man.  Some say man, some say angel, but I think it is less clear than that.

The NIV in biblegateway.com titles genesis 32:22 with "Jacob wrestles god".  but in 32:24-29 it says "man":

So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
 27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
 28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
 29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.

bold mine.  Several weird things here.  First, the verses only ever say "man".  I am not sure why some translations say "angel", because according to Strong's the word is clearly "man".  I think it comes from xians using different parts of the bible - books written centuries apart by people who never, even intended them to be placed side by side - to interpret other parts of the bible.  In Hosea 12:4 it recounts the wrestling match, only it does say it was with an angel.:

He struggled with the angel and overcame him; he wept and begged for his favor.

I have no idea how it leaps from wresting with a guy or angels to "I've seen the face of god".  something is missing.  Second, if it is god, then god appears as a man.  So jesus H was not the first human incaration of god.  Third, why was the man so desperate to get out of there before daylight?  Was he a vampire?  If he was god, that makes it even weirder.

Either way, it looks to me like something big is missing from the story. 

[changeling]

Either way, it looks to me like something big is missing from the story.

Like maybe, reality?

[screwtape]

Like maybe, reality?

That's assumed, but not what I meant.  I am talking about from a literary standpoint.  It has a hole in the story.