Author Topic: Why does God hide himself?  (Read 12735 times)

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Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #116 on: October 19, 2011, 01:35:33 AM »
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kcrady stated
No, you do not have 500 eyewitnesses of Jesus' resurrection.  What you have is a claim by one person, Paul, that 500 other people--who are not named, who produced no accounts, drawings, or records of their own that can be traced to them--saw Jesus.  If I were to say, "5,000 people in Taos, New Mexico saw an alien spacecraft land in the Taos Plaza," would you nod and say, "Whelp, there's the testimony of 5,000 people proving that alien spacecraft visit Earth, so I'm a believer!"  I sincerely doubt you would.
I would if you said "Most of the 5000 people are still alive today", because that would mean you knew who those witnesses were, so it
wouldn't matter if you didn't recite 5000 names to me, because to make such a claim in the first place would mean you could back it up.

See ya tomorrow hopefully.

Offline ungod

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #117 on: October 19, 2011, 02:05:21 AM »
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So god hides because he doesn't love us and doesn't want to know about us?
No. God already knows all about us. God only hides Himself from people who don't really want to find out about Him.

So He hides himself from us, yet sends out missionaries. Duh!
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #118 on: October 19, 2011, 05:02:03 AM »
Without the testimony of someone who recognized an individual, all you'd have is a physical description of a nameless person.

Are you sure, Whatcha?  By that argument....

Luke 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
John 20:14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
John 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

....you have just discounted at least three "witnesses" to the resurrection.  And, indeed, cast doubt on every other "witness" thereafter.

Someone appears to the people closest to Christ, who is unrecognisable.  He tells them he is Christ....and they believe him.  Perhaps all the other witnesses also did not recognise him - because it wasn't him - but went home saying it was because Peter and the others had been assuring them "oh yes, its him all right - no, I didn't recognise him at first eitehr, but he SAYS he's Jesus and that's good enough for me!"

So be very, very careful if you want to discount evidence without witnesses recognising the person involved.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #119 on: October 19, 2011, 08:13:13 AM »
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Hatter23 stated
As was every event in the Bible
I meant the OT predates Jesus birth, which means your assertion isn't true.

NO it doesn't you are playing flim flam games:

Do you accept the statments made in the Koran, The BaghdadVita, The Illiad, The Odessy, The Books of The Dead, The Hindu Vedas, The Avestas of Zarathustra, The Adi-Granth of the Sikhs, The Urantia book,
The Kitab-i-Aqdas of Bahá’u’lláh, and Epic Norse Poetry? After all they have prophecy that come true within them, and are the testimony of those who witnessed the events therein. You may not just dismiss this just because they were written well after the events described therin...because so was the bible.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #120 on: October 19, 2011, 12:10:09 PM »
I would if you said...

5,000 people in Taos, New Mexico saw an alien spacecraft land in the Taos Plaza and most of the 5000 people are still alive today.

Do you believe me?
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #121 on: October 19, 2011, 12:47:08 PM »
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I would if you said "Most of the 5000 people are still alive today", because that would mean you knew who those witnesses were, so it
wouldn't matter if you didn't recite 5000 names to me, because to make such a claim in the first place would mean you could back it up.

5000 people **who are alive today** can testify to the fact that you owe me ten thousand dollars.

Pay up.
Denis Loubet

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #122 on: October 19, 2011, 06:23:10 PM »
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C stated
Or the fact that no prophecy was ever fulfilled? And since the OT predates Jesus, Jesus could very well be an attempt to fit those prophecies.
You know something C. I'm glad I came to this website because the conversations I've had with members made me realize something I never considered before and also shed light on a statement found in Acts. For Jesus disciples to want to make all the prophecies fit him, they would have had to know about them all and they didn't. Furthermore, the meanings of certain obscure prophecies which the Apostles attributed to Jesus enraged Israels rulers. It is always important to try to determine if people have a motive for lying and it appears they didn't have one.

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Subtitles. Dates. Textbooks. Hieroglyphs. The freaking countless written languages of humanity. No? Yet some contents of the Bible, particularly Jesus, is mentioned much later in the historical timeline. Besides the only reason why more technology is applied to the question of if Jesus existed or not (as the miracle-healing street juggler) is because it occurred CENTURIES ago, not DECADES ago as it did with JFK. Your argument, if valid, basically proves everything in history wrong.

Not wrong, just unproveable. Everything you offered, heiroglyphs etc. are nothing more than testimony. You either believe the writer or you don't. It is true that technology has made testimony far more accessible to us, but if you're going to argue that the Bible is unreliable because all we have are copies that were written after the facts, then yes, we can throw out every other ancient writing in existence, because where manuscript evidence is concerned, the Bible can't be equaled in either volume or closeness to events described. Do you believe Platos Tetraologies is authentic? I'm just showing you a bad argument against the Bibles authenticity. Street juggler huh? Does that mean you can be ruled out as  an unbiased observer?

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You're being pointlessly stubborn. You don't always need witnesses or testimony along with a huge mountain of other evidence to clearly prove something.
You do when you're speaking about the identity of a person or group. Oh, you most certainly do.

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I think someone's been reading too much 12 Angry Men.
Didn't read it, but the movie was great.
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And considering the Messiah himself showed up to more than 500 people as you say, it's remarkable how God hasn't showed himself at all except to a very select few who always claim that God spoke to them instead of showing himself to a large amount of people at one time like he did with the Israelites in the OT.
The Israelites (with the exception of Moses) never actually saw God and as for people who claim that God "spoke to them", I'm extremely skeptical. As for the Messiah, He said people that have seen Him have seen God and I wouldn't expect God to say anything other than Jesus said.

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It's completely the same case if the event supposedly occurred centuries ago. Do you know Herodotus? When it comes to numbers (in this case, for an army/war/battle), he 99% of the time exaggerates. But how do we know this? By calculating reasonable logistics for the army and then pretty much applying almost every factor (resources, water, travel time, geography) at that time to the possible number of troops at that time.

Crude example:

 Herodotus wrote that million(s) of Persians invaded Greece, when historians nowadays give a more modest number of approximately 200,000 because at that time it would have been simply impossible to supply that many soldiers in ancient Greece with the amount of resources and tools available for the Persian Empire at that time. Also consider the fact that supplying millions of troops even nowadays with the technology available is incredibly difficult as well.

And how do we know that the Second Invasion ever occurred? Well, besides the witnesses/testimony (i.e. accounts given by contemporary sources), you have the remains of military equipment used, the OTHER testimonies in the form of art, literature and so forth. Massive amounts of it from BOTH sides.
Herodotus relied heavily if not entirely on 2nd hand information when it came to military matters, so his inaccuracies are understandable, but I do admire your perception for realizing the need to use any aspect of a writing or applicable source when examining history.
 
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As for Jesus?

You only have the Bible. Nothing else.
That's not true.

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) Lk.2:1-2

"This contained the number of citizens, subject kingdoms and taxes. All these details Augustus had written with his own hand"...
Tacitus Annals, Book 1

"So Archelaus's country was laid to the province of Syria and Cyrenius one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria. Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance." - Josephus, Antiquites of the Jews, Book 1

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #123 on: October 19, 2011, 07:25:47 PM »
That's not true.

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) Lk.2:1-2

"This contained the number of citizens, subject kingdoms and taxes. All these details Augustus had written with his own hand"...
Tacitus Annals, Book 1

"So Archelaus's country was laid to the province of Syria and Cyrenius one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria. Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance." - Josephus, Antiquites of the Jews, Book 1

when were these written, whatchamean?
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Offline C

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #124 on: October 19, 2011, 08:11:10 PM »
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You know something C. I'm glad I came to this website because the conversations I've had with members made me realize something I never considered before and also shed light on a statement found in Acts. For Jesus disciples to want to make all the prophecies fit him, they would have had to know about them all and they didn't. Furthermore, the meanings of certain obscure prophecies which the Apostles attributed to Jesus enraged Israels rulers. It is always important to try to determine if people have a motive for lying and it appears they didn't have one.

If, according to you that testimony is needed from eye-witnesses, how so is the existence of Jesus verifiable if you admit that they needed to know him? And you do not need to know a certain character just to have him/her fit the context of a story or prophecy. It's like demanding that you must personally know Mickey Mouse to have him fit in his own cartoons made especially for him. And yes, they totally had motivations to lie when you consider the fact that large chunks of original 'scriptures' were cut out from the compiled Bible in the end.

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Not wrong, just unproveable.

Essentially the same thing. It is, by your definition of proof/evidence/testimony, impossible to prove any event that occurred even a year ago.

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Everything you offered, heiroglyphs etc. are nothing more than testimony. You either believe the writer or you don't

Considering it's their own culture they record, I have no other option to believe what they say about their own culture and then see if they practiced, for example, cannibalism with both their own records and the accounts given by the people who happened to meet the people.

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It is true that technology has made testimony far more accessible to us, but if you're going to argue that the Bible is unreliable because all we have are copies that were written after the facts, then yes, we can throw out every other ancient writing in existence

Too bad that other ancient writings are actually corroborated by OTHER ancient writings and did not go through ridiculous processes of determining which story of Jesus made him look more Godly and what didn't like your Bible did.

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because where manuscript evidence is concerned, the Bible can't be equaled in either volume or closeness to events described.

What? That's a shit ton of literature from hundreds of cultures you're dismissing right there. Besides that, a lot of the events the Bible describes never even happened.

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Do you believe Platos Tetraologies is authentic? I'm just showing you a bad argument against the Bibles authenticity. Street juggler huh? Does that mean you can be ruled out as  an unbiased observer?

I'm atheist. I'm totally unbiased on the topic of Christianity  &) -sarcasm- And yes, street juggler. More feasible than a sack of flesh possessed by a Holy Ghost walking around and healing people randomly just by touching them.

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You do when you're speaking about the identity of a person or group. Oh, you most certainly do.

No you don't. Here:



That's one of the most unfortunate people in history. Getting buried under volcanic ash, this guy was from Pompeii who died and was well-preserved for millions of humans to gawk at in museums 1700 years later. You sure as hell don't see witnesses who were there at Pompeii writing about the event except for contemporary historians that weren't at Pompeii when it happened. Pompeii wasn't rediscovered, again, until 1700 years later.

Even without the contemporary historians, we can pretty much determine what happened, when it happened, roughly how many people died, what weather they were experiencing around the time of volcanic eruption, what food they were eating, what clothes they were wearing, the architecture of their buildings and so forth.

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The Israelites (with the exception of Moses) never actually saw God and as for people who claim that God "spoke to them", I'm extremely skeptical. As for the Messiah, He said people that have seen Him have seen God and I wouldn't expect God to say anything other than Jesus said.

Would you seriously believe a guy if he said that anyone who saw him was seeing God today? No? If not, why? Most likely because of the lack of evidence. Again, the evidence plays an important role in all of this. Which brings us full circle: there is absolutely no evidence apart from gospels and apocryphal written by people who never even met Jesus about Jesus healing people. If the Bible, its authors and faith were the minimum requirements for the existence of a god, then there is nothing preventing any other deity out there from becoming real.




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Herodotus relied heavily if not entirely on 2nd hand information when it came to military matters, so his inaccuracies are understandable, but I do admire your perception for realizing the need to use any aspect of a writing or applicable source when examining history.

Okay, now what about the remains of the military equipment used, the literature, the arts and so forth that showed evidence of the Second Invasion?
 
Quote
"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) Lk.2:1-2

"This contained the number of citizens, subject kingdoms and taxes. All these details Augustus had written with his own hand"...
Tacitus Annals, Book 1

"So Archelaus's country was laid to the province of Syria and Cyrenius one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria. Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance." - Josephus, Antiquites of the Jews, Book 1

Um, all I see is "taxes", "kingdoms", "Caesar", "Syria", "Jews", and "Syria". Where is the Jesus?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 08:53:59 PM by C »
The Second C

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #125 on: October 20, 2011, 04:41:56 AM »
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As for Jesus?
You only have the Bible. Nothing else.
That's not true.

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) Lk.2:1-2

"This contained the number of citizens, subject kingdoms and taxes. All these details Augustus had written with his own hand"...
Tacitus Annals, Book 1

"So Archelaus's country was laid to the province of Syria and Cyrenius one that had been consul, was sent by Caesar to take account of people's effects in Syria. Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance." - Josephus, Antiquites of the Jews, Book 1

How exciting!  The Bible describes a man-made "event", something fairly run-of-the-mill.....and so therefore all the magic parts must also be true!!!

Whatcha, consider for a moment the "Sharpe" novels by Bernard Cornwell.  Chock full of careful research, they feature places we know exist; characters (Wellington, Napoleon, etc) that we have multiple contemporary accounts of; and descriptions of events and battles that are likewise supported by umpteen sources of evidence - documents, archeological evidence....even the buildings of the battles still stand. 

And into that mix we insert Richard Sharpe, Patrick Harper, et al.  Characters who do things that are out of the ordinary, exhibit extraordinary luck.....but do nothing that could not conceivably have happened.

Under your logic, because we can verify 90% of what happens in the "Sharpe" novels, therefore Richard Sharpe existed and his life unfolded exactly as the books describe.

If we didn't have the knowledge that Bernard Cornwell writes fiction.....can you explain to me how we could tell from the books alone whether Richard Sharpe really existed or not?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #126 on: October 22, 2011, 05:43:56 PM »
Whatcha?,

A hypothetical question for you. Let's say you've been accused of a rape. Let's say that you have two pieces of evidence to use in your defense; the testimony of a third party who can swear that you were with him at the time of the rape, and DNA evidence which shows that the semen recovered from the rape does not belong to you.

Let's also say that, for some strange reason, you can only present one of these pieces of evidence in court.

Which one would you choose to present as your defense?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2011, 01:59:20 PM »
whatcha,  I do hope  you can return to this thread.  I think you can be a good contributor but yuo need to realize where the gaps in your information lie.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2011, 03:51:28 PM »
So He hides himself from us, yet sends out missionaries. Duh!
Yes that's right. I've already explained why (the Bible says) God chose to do this, but in case you missed it:

1 Corinthians
18 "The message of the cross seems foolish to those who are lost and dying. But it is God's power to us who are being saved.
19 It is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of those who are wise. I will do away with the cleverness of those who think they are so smart." —(Isaiah 29:14)
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the educated person? Where are the great thinkers of this world? Hasn't God made the wisdom of the world foolish?
21 God wisely planned that the world would not know him through its own wisdom. It pleased God to use the foolish things we preach to save those who believe.
22 Jews require miraculous signs. Greeks look for wisdom.
23 But we preach about Christ and his death on the cross. That is very hard for Jews to accept. And everyone else thinks it's foolish.
24 But there are those God has chosen, both Jews and others. To them Christ is God's power and God's wisdom.
25 The foolish things of God are wiser than human wisdom. The weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

I think we can all agree that we admire great people who display humility....until it comes to God.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2011, 04:00:46 PM »
5,000 people in Taos, New Mexico saw an alien spacecraft land in the Taos Plaza and most of the 5000 people are still alive today.

Do you believe me?
Yes, I believe 5,000 people in New Mexico who are still alive said they saw a UFO. If I planned on investigating the story, I believe you would provide me with their names, addresses, etc. so that I would be able to examine what they saw and check their backgrounds. You do understand what would happen to your credibility if you couldn't back your claim.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2011, 04:26:52 PM »
when were these written, whatchamean?
Gospel of Luke - 50-70AD
Tacitus Annals  and Josephus - 90-110 AD

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2011, 07:18:14 PM »
If, according to you that testimony is needed from eye-witnesses, how so is the existence of Jesus verifiable if you admit that they needed to know him? And you do not need to know a certain character just to have him/her fit the context of a story or prophecy. It's like demanding that you must personally know Mickey Mouse to have him fit in his own cartoons made especially for him. And yes, they totally had motivations to lie when you consider the fact that large chunks of original 'scriptures' were cut out from the compiled Bible in the end.
I'm saying they came to know Him as they lived with Him and associated Him with what the OT scriptures said about Him.

Essentially the same thing. It is, by your definition of proof/evidence/testimony, impossible to prove any event that occurred even a year ago.
Something that is unprovable isn't essentially the same thing as something which is untrue. I think where your're having a hard time with what I'm saying is in not realizing that you can't know anything about an individual life ( name, lineage, where he lived, accomplishments, etc.) without the testimony of another.


Considering it's their own culture they record, I have no other option to believe what they say about their own culture and then see if they practiced, for example, cannibalism with both their own records and the accounts given by the people who happened to meet the people.
And that's what you should do. That's all I ask people to do with the Bible.

Too bad that other ancient writings are actually corroborated by OTHER ancient writings and did not go through ridiculous processes of determining which story of Jesus made him look more Godly and what didn't like your Bible did.
Which story of Jesus made Him look more Godly? To begin with, their aren't alot of "different stories" about Jesus. There are thousands of manuscripts and although they have discrepencies, the differences are minor compared with "other" ancient writings.


What? That's a shit ton of literature from hundreds of cultures you're dismissing right there.
I'm not dismissing any manuscript from any culture. I'm telling you that compared to any other manuscript evidence that has ever been found, the Bible has no equal in mistake free content or volume. It's not even close.


Besides that, a lot of the events the Bible describes never even happened.
Name one.

I'm atheist. I'm totally unbiased on the topic of Christianity  &) -sarcasm-
I didn't think you would answer the question. I've heard it said that atheists are free thinkers, but I've seen a pattern since I've been here which indicates it might not be true.

And yes, street juggler. More feasible than a sack of flesh possessed by a Holy Ghost walking around and healing people randomly just by touching them.
So people followed Jesus teachings to their deaths because He was a sreet juggler, but not because He could do miracles. Ok.


No you don't. Here:



That's one of the most unfortunate people in history. Getting buried under volcanic ash, this guy was from Pompeii who died and was well-preserved for millions of humans to gawk at in museums 1700 years later. You sure as hell don't see witnesses who were there at Pompeii writing about the event except for contemporary historians that weren't at Pompeii when it happened. Pompeii wasn't rediscovered, again, until 1700 years later.

Even without the contemporary historians, we can pretty much determine what happened, when it happened, roughly how many people died, what weather they were experiencing around the time of volcanic eruption, what food they were eating, what clothes they were wearing, the architecture of their buildings and so forth.
And what did the contemporary historians have to say about the person who was fried in the pyroclastic flow? What was his name? Did he accomplish any feats of noteriety? Even your assertion that he was "from Pompeii" is conjecture. He may have just picked a really bad time to go on vacation.


Would you seriously believe a guy if he said that anyone who saw him was seeing God today? No? If not, why? Most likely because of the lack of evidence.
That's the point C. Apparently, to those who met Jesus in person, they saw evidence to believe His claim of being God in the flesh. 


Again, the evidence plays an important role in all of this. Which brings us full circle: there is absolutely no evidence apart from gospels and apocryphal written by people who never even met Jesus about Jesus healing people. If the Bible, its authors and faith were the minimum requirements for the existence of a god, then there is nothing preventing any other deity out there from becoming real.

When you consider the time (1st century), the insignificant country He lived in and the duration of Jesus' ministry (3 years), it's not at all surprising that more people didn't meet or write about Him. What is believed to be the first inquiry about Jesus by a foreigner
occurs just before His execution. That makes sense.


Okay, now what about the remains of the military equipment used, the literature, the arts and so forth that showed evidence of the Second Invasion?
I think we believe the same things should be considered when examining history, so what's your point?
 

Um, all I see is "taxes", "kingdoms", "Caesar", "Syria", "Jews", and "Syria". Where is the Jesus?
He's in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, where Agustus, Cyrenius and Archelaus are mentioned, so I guess you believe that both Matthew and Luke decided to write about real people and real places and real events....and then chose to invent Jesus

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2011, 07:26:01 PM »
whatcha,  I do hope  you can return to this thread.  I think you can be a good contributor but yuo need to realize where the gaps in your information lie.
Thank you velkyn. I'm trying to answer posts in the order they appear. I have a very busy social life, as we all do, and other members on this board have graciously posted other websites for me to consider in our conversations. It's alot to study and being a poor typist, it takes me a long time to answer people.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2011, 07:33:21 PM »
Whatcha?,

A hypothetical question for you. Let's say you've been accused of a rape. Let's say that you have two pieces of evidence to use in your defense; the testimony of a third party who can swear that you were with him at the time of the rape, and DNA evidence which shows that the semen recovered from the rape does not belong to you.

Let's also say that, for some strange reason, you can only present one of these pieces of evidence in court.

Which one would you choose to present as your defense?
The DNA evidence, which would have to be comfirmed (testified to) by a trained pathologist.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2011, 07:47:01 PM »

You know something C. I'm glad I came to this website because the conversations I've had with members made me realize something I never considered before and also shed light on a statement found in Acts. For Jesus disciples to want to make all the prophecies fit him, they would have had to know about them all and they didn't. Furthermore, the meanings of certain obscure prophecies which the Apostles attributed to Jesus enraged Israels rulers. It is always important to try to determine if people have a motive for lying and it appears they didn't have one.


Eh? It's like we have a continual stream of naive, just-hatched-from-the-egg Christians, that come here. They don't read even the most basic criticisms of Bible historicity, but they turn up in these threads and expect us to deal all the information to them.

If you look at the way NT prophecy is fulfilled, you can see clearly that Matthew, or the last redactor of Matthew is the one responsible for contorting most of the OT prophecies to fit Jesus' life. The reason the disciples, (if they existed), did not know about OT prophecy, would be that the prophecies weren't known until "Matthew" decided what they were. Jesus wasn't born in Bethlehem, until "Matthew" decided he was. The last redaction of Matthew could have been done after 150AD, because Justin Martyr's "Memoirs of the Apostles" seem to contain a different version of it. Don't read the Christian apologia on this issue; go and read Justin Martyrs First Apology to look at the quotes yourself.

If your case is so strong, whatchamean, then why do the Bishop Spongs of the world go around not believing in a literal God.

If you want to find out about the way liars work, then why don't you go and meet a few con artists, yourself? You will find that your simple first-order thinking [about lies] pales in comparison to their sophistication.

Just go and do some basic reading on the subject. You should not have to come here and say : You know something C. I'm glad I came to this website because the conversations I've had with members made me realize something. You should have done some basic study somewhere else. It really indicates that you have been nowhere else.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #135 on: October 25, 2011, 02:58:29 AM »
Under your logic, because we can verify 90% of what happens in the "Sharpe" novels, therefore Richard Sharpe existed and his life unfolded exactly as the books describe.

If we didn't have the knowledge that Bernard Cornwell writes fiction.....can you explain to me how we could tell from the books alone whether Richard Sharpe really existed or not?

HEllo Watcha - you seem to have missed this question?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #136 on: October 25, 2011, 09:13:12 AM »
when were these written, whatchamean?
Gospel of Luke - 50-70AD
Tacitus Annals  and Josephus - 90-110 AD

yes. And the supposed events were around  1 AD, yes?  So we have claims, that contradict each other, written decades later.

First, your sources do not mention Jesus, except for a passage in Josephus that is largely agreed to be a forgery added much later.  They mention Christians, which would make any reference to any beleivers in a god "evidence" that the god exists.  This would mean that Isis is just as real as your god.  Do you accept that? 

Second, references of real people and places do not make a book true.  If this were the case, then any modern political thriller suddenly becomes true, according to your arguments.

Third, we have supposed events int the bible that should have been noticed by others, a global flood, millions of people wandering around in the Sinai for decades, massive death in Egypt, an earthquake, the sun darkening, the dead walkign the streets, and NONE of those are in any contemporary writings. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #137 on: October 25, 2011, 02:01:49 PM »
Besides that, a lot of the events the Bible describes never even happened.
Name one.


nephilim.
the egyptian bondage.
the 10 plagues.
Exodus.
the flood.
jericho never had walls.
the sun did not stop over head.
jerusalem did not have an earth quake and an eclipse on the same day in the first century.

That's without cracking a book.



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Offline ungod

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #138 on: October 25, 2011, 03:15:52 PM »
So He hides himself from us, yet sends out missionaries. Duh!
Yes that's right. I've already explained why (the Bible says) God chose to do this, but in case you missed it:

1 Corinthians
18 "The message of the cross seems foolish to those who are lost and dying. But it is God's power to us who are being saved.

Relevance to God hiding himself?
Quote
19 It is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of those who are wise. I will do away with the cleverness of those who think they are so smart." —(Isaiah 29:14)
Relevance to God hiding himself?

Quote
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the educated person? Where are the great thinkers of this world? Hasn't God made the wisdom of the world foolish?
Relevance to God hiding himself?
Quote
21 God wisely planned that the world would not know him through its own wisdom.
What's so wise about that? Sounds totally stupid for someone so eager to be known!

Quote
It pleased God to use the foolish things we preach to save those who believe.

So foolishness pleases God! LOL. And, what are the believers being saved from? God?
Sounds just like a Mafia protection racket.

Quote
22 Jews require miraculous signs. Greeks look for wisdom.
Neither one of which you're going to get from someone in hiding.

Quote
23 But we preach about Christ and his death on the cross. That is very hard for Jews to accept. And everyone else thinks it's foolish.

Relevance to the question of god hiding? Can you actually answer a question in a rational manner, or can you only vomit up bible quotes like some robot?

Quote
24 But there are those God has chosen, both Jews and others. To them Christ is God's power and God's wisdom.
25 The foolish things of God are wiser than human wisdom. The weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
More bible babble....
Quote
I think we can all agree that we admire great people who display humility....until it comes to God.
Where's the humility in a sociopath who, in spite of being omni everything, demands WORSHIP from the  creatures in his little ant farm. Talk about a psycho.
Do you expect the ants in your yard to bow down and kiss your ass?
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #139 on: October 25, 2011, 06:49:40 PM »
Whatcha:
Quote
Quote
Let's say that you have two pieces of evidence to use in your defense; the testimony of a third party who can swear that you were with him at the time of the rape, and DNA evidence which shows that the semen recovered from the rape does not belong to you. Let's also say that, for some strange reason, you can only present one of these pieces of evidence in court.Which one would you choose to present as your defense?
The DNA evidence, which would have to be comfirmed (testified to) by a trained pathologist.
Ah OK. I finally see what you're saying; every piece of physical evidence has to be verified by someone as being what it purports to be. Which is true.

Yet, in my hypothetical example, you still chose the physical evidence (suitably verified) rather than the eye-witness testimony, presumably because it would be regarded by the jury as more reliable.

In the case of the Resurrection, you only have the less reliable eye-witness testimony.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #140 on: October 25, 2011, 09:48:08 PM »
Besides that, a lot of the events the Bible describes never even happened.
Name one.

Also:
Tower of Babel
Leprosy cure (Leviticus)
Sodom and Gomorrah
A star didn't lead anyone to a manger.
Colored stick changes the genetics of a cow.
Cockatrices have never existed
Satyrs never existed.
Judas, if he existed, didn't die two different ways.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #141 on: October 25, 2011, 11:48:16 PM »
.. come here and say : You know something C. I'm glad I came to this website because the conversations I've had with members made me realize something. You should have done some basic study somewhere else. It really indicates that you have been nowhere else.

Sorry; just using the basic tenets of amateur bible criticism to presumptuously deduce you had been nowhere else, based on tenuous say-so. On balance, my own tenuous assertions become true, if no other tenuous assertions can be made against my hypothesis; say for example, you do not reply, using actual historical evidence. Where no historical evidence exists, we must interpret the evidence in a way which confirms our bias, and use that to build other tenuous assertions.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #142 on: October 26, 2011, 01:27:20 AM »
I suspect that the eye-witness testimony in the bible is -- at best -- actually testimony of the testimony of the testimony of eye-witnesses. Plenty of room there for outright fabrication, especially since the source has a vested interest in the events being perceived as true.

Other historical figures usually have contemporary records from sources favorable and unfavorable to them. That tends to reduce any conflict of interest issue.
Denis Loubet

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #143 on: October 26, 2011, 08:40:08 AM »

If you want to use "the evidence is all around you" to prove YOUR particular god, then you need to show that that "evidence" of the world ONLY matches the way your religion says the world should be, and that of no other god that may be claimed to exist.  Otherwise, saying "look at the world" is just as good evidence for the Great Green Arkleseizure.
So what is there specifically about the world that could ONLY have come into being if your chosen god existed?
I gave it to you Anfauglir, but maybe you didn't read it, so here it is again:

"There are things about him that people cannot see....his eternal power and all the things that make Him God. But since the beginning of the world those things have been easy to understand by what God has made. So people are without excuse" Romans 1:20

I know that everything God does will continue forever. People cannot add anything to what God has done, and they cannot take anything away from it." Ecclesiastes 3:14

Of course you can always attribute the (now scientifically confirmed) make up of the universe to chance, but what you'll never be able to do is claim that the writers of the books I cited were incorrect about the property of the world around us.

It does seem somewhat bizarre that - when armed with so much evidence of his (and only his) god that he could use to slap us down, that he prefers to argue over what a historical source is.  Surely if there is evidence - here, today - that proves HIS (and only his) god, he would be sharing it?
History isn't nearly as important as the inescapable evidence that surrounds us every second of every day, but it is important.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #144 on: October 26, 2011, 08:50:45 AM »
Isn't that kinda like hearsay?
I'll admit it's hearsay from me to you, but back then it wasn't.