Author Topic: Why does God hide himself?  (Read 12935 times)

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2011, 10:12:04 PM »
No. God already knows all about us. God only hides Himself from people who don't really want to find out about Him.

This is analogous to the fireman who runs into a burning building when he hears a child screaming for help.  What would you think of the fireman if he didn't save the child because the kid didn't ask nicely?  This is what you will have us believe God does.  He picks and chooses who to show himself to based on the fine line between a 'please' and a 'pretty please' (or as you say... those who want to know and those who 'really' want to know).  Not only that, but our eternal fate is also based on the same fine line.  Is that fair?  Is that 'good'?  Is that loving? 

It's absolutely ridiculous.  And if you really think this is true, why would you worship a being such as that?  If you didn't know me at all, and you saw me hanging off a cliff, and I screamed for your help, would you wait until I asked you nicely to give it? 



Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2011, 10:22:16 PM »
No Jeffpt,

You'd have to first join his church, pay up on your tithes and agree to exactly the same god ideas he has. Otherwise, off to hell with you!
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Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2011, 10:23:15 PM »
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You didn't answer the big question. Why don't you pray for biblical clarity and explain it all for us?
Wouldn't it be better if you prayed for biblical clarity and then you would know for yourself?

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There are millions of people that claim they are christians, but god doesn't reveal his word to, is it because they aren't "Real ChristiansTM?"
Could be, or maybe God has another reason why certain things remain hidden to believers. Would you like an example?

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Has god ever spoken to you in a two way conversation? If so, why don't you tell us about it. If not, why not?
No He hasn't. Why? You would have to ask God that.

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I'm a rational smart person if god is real, I truly do want to know about him! If I were wrong I'd really like to know.
Maybe the problem is that you don't want to go on Gods terms.

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I was once a christian, and I believed in him and prayed feverishly to him and I deluded myself into thinking that he really heard me and even answered me in a weird way. But I've realized that it wasn't true. It was a lie perpetuated by other "so called" christians who were afraid to face the truth.
Why do you think your experience was a delusion?

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2011, 10:29:57 PM »
OK, here I go with my monotonous routine. Whatchmean, please provide logical reasons and/or scientific evidence for the existence of God.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2011, 10:37:08 PM »
I have prayed for biblical clarity among other things, and I got no answer, just like you apparently.

Funny how a hiding god is exactly the same as a non-existing one..

God's terms huh? How am I supposed to know god's terms if he won't talk to me? The bible was written by men and men often lie. God would know this wouldn't he?

Do you think he forgets that the only way to hear about god is from other humans that are just like me who only heard from some other human, who only heard from some other human, and so on.

Too bad the Ten Commandments and the arc of the covenant, and every friggin other god made artifact just happened to get lost by christians who just conveniently misplaced them.

Why didn't god write his message to mankind on something Indelible? Why does his word just happened to have to come through his self appointed messengers?

Other christians speak to god all the time, are they liars? The Evangelists on TBN claim it are they liars. If not, what's wrong with you that god doesn't have anything to say to you?


I realized my beliefs were a delusion when I started to read the bible more and I led myself to atheism via the KJV.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 10:38:53 PM by Brakeman »
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Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2011, 10:44:17 PM »
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This is analogous to the fireman who runs into a burning building when he hears a child screaming for help.  What would you think of the fireman if he didn't save the child because the kid didn't ask nicely?
No. I think the fireman would save the child because he heard him screaming for help as the child realized his life was in peril. That was a very good comparison. It doesn't get any more serious than when your life is on the line. Some people realize that before thei're hanging from the cliff.

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This is what you will have us believe God does.  He picks and chooses who to show himself to based on the fine line between a 'please' and a 'pretty please' (or as you say... those who want to know and those who 'really' want to know).  Not only that, but our eternal fate is also based on the same fine line.  Is that fair?  Is that 'good'?  Is that loving?
Why would you expect someone as important as God to accept a halfhearted attempt to know Him? Are you married? If so, did you try to impress your spouse when you were still dating?   

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It's absolutely ridiculous.  And if you really think this is true, why would you worship a being such as that?  If you didn't know me at all, and you saw me hanging off a cliff, and I screamed for your help, would you wait until I asked you nicely to give it?

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It's absolutely ridiculous.  And if you really think this is true, why would you worship a being such as that?
I don't see any problem with me having to go to God on His terms. If you were God, would you allow people to dictate to you how it was going to work?

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If you didn't know me at all, and you saw me hanging off a cliff, and I screamed for your help, would you wait until I asked you nicely to give it?
If I didn't hear you screaming, I'd figure you didn't care. 

[/quote]

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2011, 10:49:47 PM »
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OK, here I go with my monotonous routine. Whatchmean, please provide logical reasons and/or scientific evidence for the existence of God.
Ok.
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Ro.1:20


Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2011, 10:53:54 PM »
Well folks, thank you for he conversation. I have to get up for work early so I'm going to bed. I will reply to any of your posts tomorrow. Good night.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2011, 11:01:04 PM »
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Ro.1:20

Circular reasoning. The Bible is not evidence because your argument would go like this: God exists because the Bible says so and is true because it is God's Word. See the big circle you get stuck in? You can't use Bible verses to prove God's existence because they already rely on his existence to even be true.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2011, 11:05:38 PM »
No. I think the fireman would save the child because he heard him screaming for help as the child realized his life was in peril.

Right.  So why doesn't God save people who are also in danger of burning for all eternity in hell?  Does God not realize our eternal lives are in peril?

Why would you expect someone as important as God to accept a halfhearted attempt to know Him?

Because you people say God is good, that's why I would expect it.  If God is good, he would act like it.  He wouldn't act like a pissy little bitch who only cares for people when he gets what he wants from them.  If that's the God you believe in, that's fine.  Don't try to make it seem like God is good though.   If you want to say that God is an ass hole who does things his way no matter whether you like it or not, then you may be on to something. 

Do you have kids?  Do you only treat them well when they give you everything you want?  Or do you love them and try to help them no matter what they do? 

I don't see any problem with me having to go to God on His terms. If you were God, would you allow people to dictate to you how it was going to work?

If I were God, I would give everyone evidence that I was real, regardless of whether they were in a quiet room one night asking the air for evidence that God exists, or if they were inside the middle of Notre Dame church on Christmas eve, screaming for God at the top of my lungs.  In fact, I would simply give everyone whatever evidence they required.  The picture of God that you are painting makes him really seem like a prick.  He's like an overbearing boss who has no pity for anyone other than those who do exactly what he wants. 

If I didn't hear you screaming, I'd figure you didn't care. 

What a great Christian you are.  I hold out hope that one day you will turn into a nice person despite your belief in this type of God. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline kcrady

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2011, 02:34:33 AM »
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse." Ro.1:20

Could you cite some examples, please?  What aspect of the created Cosmos points specifically to (your version of) the Christian god, and not some other, such as the god of Deism, or Allah, or Greek philosophical monotheism, or the Egyptian pantheon, etc.?  Since this evidence is said to be "clearly seen," surely you, at least, must be able to see it and point it out.

For a contrary case, I can point to quite a few examples of things which very strongly imply that an entity such as the alleged Christian deity could not be responsible for them:

1) Praying mantises:  Here we have a creature whose form is an utter mockery of Christian devotion--"hands" folded in prayer, yes, but look at their mating behavior.  A greater inversion of the Christian patriarchal order could hardly be imagined.  Romans 1:20 would lead us to anticipate that Yahweh's moral order would be reflected throughout his creation, "so that they [humanity] are without excuse."

2) Inhospitable Cosmos:  Believers like to make the argument that the Cosmos is "fine-tuned" for (human) life.  This is self-evidently false.  In terms of available habitat, Earth is far better suited to dolphins and cuttlefish than for humans.  The minority of one tiny planet's surface vanishes in comparison with the inconceivably vast emptiness populated only by hard radiation, temperature extremes, random sprays of dust particles with the kinetic energy of high-caliber bullets, and other dangers.  It simply does not look like a Cosmos created for the purpose of hosting a Gospel salvation-drama.

3) Trillions of trillions of extra stars:  The Bible tells us that the stars were created "for times and seasons, and to give light upon the Earth."  And yet, nearly all of the stars, hundreds of billions in each of at least a hundred billion galaxies, cannot possibly serve this purpose.  They can't be seen or detected at all, apart from highly-sensitive scientific instrumentation, like the Hubble Space Telescope.

4) An even larger number of extra planets:  We have begun to discover that planets are quite common around other stars.  Based on what we have seen so far, in our own Solar System and others, barren, uninhabitable, lifeless worlds and bodies (asteroids, comets, nebulae, etc.) outnumber living worlds by a wide margin.  Any other habitable world we might discover will turn out to be so incredibly far away that humans cannot ever hope to travel there. 

5) The "zoo" of sub-atomic particles:  Surely a god creating a Cosmos for humans could have created one with a far more parsimonious base than the "zoo" of hundreds of different kinds of sub-atomic particles, many of which decay after some tiny fraction of a second.  What are neutrinos, pi mesons, kaons, muons, etc. for?

6) Every animal referred to in the Bible as "unclean" or "an abomination unto the Lord:"  Self-explanatory: why would Yahweh create creatures that disgust him?

7) The Duck-Billed Platypus:  Really?  Really?!

I could keep this up all day.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline kcrady

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2011, 02:40:00 AM »
Oh yes, one more:

8 ) Entheogenic plants and fungi: Ayahuasca, magic mushrooms, and other plants/fungi that, when consumed, generate profound mystical experiences that do not validate "orthodox"/fundamentalist Christianity.  Christians fear and hate these plants (and lesser, non-entheogenic plants like marijuana) and demand that their growth, consumption, and sale should be strictly forbidden by force of law.  So why would Yahweh create such things?

EDIT: To change the 8 ) from the sunglasses-smilie into the number it was suppposed to be.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2011, 05:33:46 AM »
#8 Pat Robertson is down with the herb, I think. Also, they are there because it is a fallen world, stuff like that started to grow when sin came into the world after Eden.

You're welcome.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2011, 06:28:22 AM »
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So god hides because he doesn't love us and doesn't want to know about us?
No. God already knows all about us. God only hides Himself from people who don't really want to find out about Him.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jer.29:

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Can you truly love someone that hides from you? How exactly would that work? It wouldn't work in reality, where we live.
It happens every day where we live. If we are really interested in finding out about a person, group, or any subject, we pour our hearts into it because we want to know.

But you see, this is the problem.  How much effort have you put into finding out about Odin the All-Father?  Not a lot, I would suspect.  Certainly you are very unlikely to have poured your heart into it.  And what about Allah?  How advanced are you on your Arabic courses to allow you to read the Koran in the original?  What do you know about the Lord Ganesh?  How hard have you sought to understand his story?

That's the point, Whatcha - I'm sure that from the inside, once you have the knowledge, it all becomes very clear that your god is the real one.  But from where WE stand, on the outside, there really is no reason to choose to "pour our hearts into" knowing YOUR god over any of the (quite literally) thousands of other possibilities.

And that's where the idea of the "loving, but hidden" god falls down.  HE knows he is the One True God - I don't.  And so the onus is very much on him to make the first move with me - or, at the very least, to stop hiding and answer when someone first calls out to him. 

Like I said - there are thousands of possible gods out there, most of whom make the same "you must seek me sincerely and wholeheartedly" demand.  But without them making the first move, there is no way to decide where first to devote my energies.  And before you bring it up - no, the Bible is NOT a valid first move, because if it is then so is every single story of every single other god there is, was, or will be - and once again, we are back to there being no standout reason to choose to consider YOUR particular god.

It's like being shown into a room filled with ten thousand identical boxes, and being told that inside ONE of them is the secret of the universe.  But all the boxes are locked tight, and we know that to prise one open will take weeks - maybe months - of dedicated hard work.  Easy to work out that it will be impossible to open even a fraction of those boxes before we die.

So tell me, Whatcha - what is there on the lid of YOUR box that would lead me to try to open it before that box....or that one, or that one?  Remembering, of course, that the god inside that box is (according to you and most other Christians) (a) loving, (b) desiring a relationship with me, and (c) "not hiding"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline kcrady

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2011, 06:40:03 AM »
#8 Pat Robertson is down with the herb, I think. Also, they are there because it is a fallen world, stuff like that started to grow when sin came into the world after Eden.

You're welcome.

So Sin is a Creator also.  Interesting theology, that.  We already know that Sin is a metaphysical power that can repel Yahweh like a cross repels a vampire.  That's why Yahweh has to have Hell, because one teeny tiny little speck of Sin can cause his whole realm to topple like a house of cards in a hurricane.  He has no choice but to resort to odd, desperate gambits (the whole, "sacrifice himself to himself to make an exception to a rule he made up himself" thing, his often-tried, often-failed "smash-it-all-and-start-over" method, and so on) to deal with Sin.  Sin does not need to engage in such efforts to combat him.  Its (His?  Her) very existence is sufficient.

From this, it seems apparent that Sin is the more powerful deity of the two.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2011, 05:25:06 PM »
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Circular reasoning. The Bible is not evidence because your argument would go like this: God exists because the Bible says so and is true because it is God's Word. See the big circle you get stuck in? You can't use Bible verses to prove God's existence because they already rely on his existence to even be true.
I'm not stuck in a circle, because the verse has to do with the nature of the universe we live in. It's an argument that even without the Bible, there's no excuse for not knowing there is a God.

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2011, 05:35:20 PM »
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Circular reasoning. The Bible is not evidence because your argument would go like this: God exists because the Bible says so and is true because it is God's Word. See the big circle you get stuck in? You can't use Bible verses to prove God's existence because they already rely on his existence to even be true.
I'm not stuck in a circle, because the verse has to do with the nature of the universe we live in. It's an argument that even without the Bible, there's no excuse for not knowing there is a God.

Aside from the lack of a single piece of evidence?

And the Bible doesn't count...

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2011, 05:35:36 PM »
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Brakeman stated
Why does his word just happened to have to come through his self appointed messengers?

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." 1 Co.1:21


Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2011, 05:39:51 PM »
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Eaten by Bears stated
Aside from the lack of a single piece of evidence?
Point was the evidence is all around you, even if you never used the Bible. Even if nobody ever preached the gospel.

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2011, 05:44:11 PM »
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Eaten by Bears stated
Aside from the lack of a single piece of evidence?
Point was the evidence is all around you, even if you never used the Bible. Even if nobody ever preached the gospel.

By that standard of evidence, the Christian God is no more valid than any other of the thousands of gods that could all claim the same thing. Your argument makes no sense.

Because there is stuff = there is a supernatural invisible being that made everything (and it's only the one I believe in, not the one those guys over there do).

You see how silly that sounds?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2011, 05:51:01 PM »
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2011, 06:03:43 PM »
Whatchamean, you are being predictably vague and denying your use of a fallacy. We get that all the time here. Have anything better to offer?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2011, 06:04:48 PM »
I think watchamean needs to more clearly understand where we are coming from.

Imagine aliens landed on earth. They have no concept of supernatural beings. You have to convince them that there is a god.

Showing them an old book and saying 'Just look around you' is hardly the most compelling evidence. I wonder how the religious would try to go about it?

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2011, 06:13:51 PM »
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Eaten by Bears stated
By that standard of evidence, the Christian God is no more valid than any other of the thousands of gods that could all claim the same thing.
That's true, depending on what other faiths claim about the nature of their gods, but the fact that the world we live in has the same characterisic as the One who created it would still be reason to know there is a God.

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2011, 06:16:08 PM »
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"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
What's more extraordinary than the resurrection of Jesus?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2011, 06:17:26 PM »
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"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
What's more extraordinary than the resurrection of Jesus?

That is, indeed, a most extraordinary claim.  What evidence do you have to support it?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2011, 06:20:15 PM »
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curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean, you are being predictably vague and denying your use of a fallacy.
Why do you consider history a fallacy? It seems by your standard, nothing from the past can be used benefit us.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2011, 06:22:04 PM »
Quote
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
What's more extraordinary than the resurrection of Jesus?

It is very extraordinary. Prove that it happened. Notice I say prove, not preach. You have not yet established the Bible as a historical document with your "argument," because that requires proof as well.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2011, 06:23:44 PM »
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curiousgirl stated
Whatchamean, you are being predictably vague and denying your use of a fallacy.
Why do you consider history a fallacy? It seems by your standard, nothing from the past can be used benefit us.

Strawman. Your circular reasoning is a fallacy, not history. Prove the historical accuracy of the Bible.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan