Author Topic: Why does God hide himself?  (Read 11653 times)

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Offline Samuelxcs

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Why does God hide himself?
« on: October 02, 2011, 07:27:09 AM »
This was found at: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/pda/thread.php?topic_id=13623

(Another forum about Christianity)

I don't think God would hide himself for any good reason. It is glorious to conceal a matter? God is a matter? If God is a matter and thinks he is getting glory from hiding, there must be something wrong. (Quick everyone hide and get glory!)

Quote
Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

I love the above verse and find such an awesome deepness in God in things that are hidden. I find the Bible full of hidden mysteries (Greek Sacred Secret) and what amazes me are some many brothers and sisters in the Lord actually believe there are no mysteries in scripture.

God Himself hides Himself from man. This was not the case in the Garden of Eden; but once man became naked our perception of God changed. When Adam died; he did not die at that moment as we all know death. He died phyically at the age of 930 years old. But what did happened is he died spiritually at that moment he became naked which has nothing to do with not having clothing in the natural sense.

You see a dead man cannot see, hear, touch etc. A spiritual dead man is dead to the realm of the spirit and cannot see, hear, touch God as Adam did in the garden.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2011, 08:13:27 AM »
According to the bible, we are created in the image of god, (men anyway), and when Adam ate of the tree of knowledge, he gained god's knowledge of shame. (Remember the fig leaf?)
Thus god does not show himself because he is ashamed.

There are no gyms in heaven, but mild and honey flows like rivers. I'd bet he's pretty gross.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline L-Chaim

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2011, 08:46:46 AM »
The Father cannot be seen by humans as no one can see Him and live.

The Son did Show up but we killed Him.

The Spirit cannot be seen as he is a Spirit.

But....We will see Him face to face, for now we see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed in the eschcaton.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2011, 08:58:24 AM »

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2011, 09:06:51 AM »
The Father cannot be seen by humans as no one can see Him and live.

The Son did Show up but we killed Him.

The Spirit cannot be seen as he is a Spirit.

But....We will see Him face to face, for now we see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed in the eschcaton.

Hi, L-Chaim:

Have you read the forum rules yet?
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17005.0.html

The reason I ask is that posts in the vein such as the above are likely to be regarded by the general membership as preaching, which is not permitted here.  If you haven't read the rules yet, you probably should.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Historicity

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2011, 09:19:28 AM »
@OP

Like wow, man.   I dig fantasy literature better than alcohol as an escape.  Reading that quote in the OP makes me zone out.  Way cool trip about Bible mysteries.

They used to have the stage musical of Peter Pan on TV every year.  I wish they would again.  When Tinkerbell's light gets dim and Peter Pan breaks the fourth wall and asks the children in the audience to say "I do belive in fairies. I do believe in fairies" I get all misty and join in.

You can't see God and you can't see fairies.  Except with the eyes of faith.

Offline L-Chaim

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2011, 09:19:34 AM »
The Father cannot be seen by humans as no one can see Him and live.

The Son did Show up but we killed Him.

The Spirit cannot be seen as he is a Spirit.

But....We will see Him face to face, for now we see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed in the eschcaton.

Hi, L-Chaim:

Have you read the forum rules yet?
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,17005.0.html

The reason I ask is that posts in the vein such as the above are likely to be regarded by the general membership as preaching, which is not permitted here.  If you haven't read the rules yet, you probably should.

Dude if that post is considered preaching i think i will have to leave. 

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2011, 09:39:36 AM »
Gotta agree with L-Chaim. That was pretty tame, it just seemed like an explanation from a believer.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2011, 11:59:54 AM »
The Father cannot be seen by humans as no one can see Him and live.
Except for the christians in and after the bible who have seen him. (Would they lie?)
The Son did Show up but we killed Him.
Except this claim is countered not only by the Jews of today, but the jews who lived during the date that jesus supposedly lived.
The Spirit cannot be seen as he is a Spirit.
Are you saying that all of the people who claim to see spirits and ghosts are liars? Have you heard of a spirit other than the holy spirit that hasn't had a vision claim at least once? Why does one have to be baptized before one can see or hear the holy spirit?
When you pray the first time, who answers you?
But....We will see Him face to face, for now we see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed in the eschcaton.
Why not pray for divine clarity of the bible? If he wrote it as his message to you, why wouldn't he want you to clearly understand it?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2011, 12:08:51 PM »
Gotta agree with L-Chaim. That was pretty tame, it just seemed like an explanation from a believer.

IMO, it was preaching on L's part, because he said nothing whatsoever to support these claims:

The Father cannot be seen by humans as no one can see Him and live.

The Son did Show up but we killed Him.

The Spirit cannot be seen as he is a Spirit.

But....We will see Him face to face, for now we see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed in the eschcaton.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2011, 12:25:47 PM »
Quote
Pro. 25: 2
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

I love the above verse and find such an awesome deepness in God in things that are hidden. I find the Bible full of hidden mysteries (Greek Sacred Secret) and what amazes me are some many brothers and sisters in the Lord actually believe there are no mysteries in scripture.

God Himself hides Himself from man. This was not the case in the Garden of Eden; but once man became naked our perception of God changed. When Adam died; he did not die at that moment as we all know death. He died phyically at the age of 930 years old. But what did happened is he died spiritually at that moment he became naked which has nothing to do with not having clothing in the natural sense.

You see a dead man cannot see, hear, touch etc. A spiritual dead man is dead to the realm of the spirit and cannot see, hear, touch God as Adam did in the garden
.

Except.....
1) The Bible says he did, physically, clothe himself - which makes the "it was a spiritual nakedness" a bit of a stretch.
2) AFTER sinning (and clothing himself) he was STILL able to recognise and converse with god - which makes "he could not see god because he was spiritually dead" a massive fail.

Seriously, do these people ever actually read their Bibles before coming up with their apologetics?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2011, 01:56:28 PM »
Slightly tangential, but I don't understand the whole nakedness thing in Eden.

Once A&E have eaten the fruit, the first thing they understand with their new knowledge is that being naked is wrong.

Which raises the question of why God didn't clothe them in the first place? Why would he allow them to carry on doing something wrong?

And also, why was nakedness wrong anyway? The other animals were naked, and A&E surely had no aesthetic reason to be ashamed of their perfect bodies.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2011, 02:53:43 PM »
Slightly tangential, but I don't understand the whole nakedness thing in Eden.

Once A&E have eaten the fruit, the first thing they understand with their new knowledge is that being naked is wrong.

Which raises the question of why God didn't clothe them in the first place? Why would he allow them to carry on doing something wrong?

And also, why was nakedness wrong anyway? The other animals were naked, and A&E surely had no aesthetic reason to be ashamed of their perfect bodies.

Questioning the mind of the almighty creator again?  Three lashes with a naked woma....errr...wait?

Offline Odin

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2011, 07:25:54 PM »
The Father cannot be seen by humans as no one can see Him and live.[sic]
  Because the father is imaginary.

Quote
The Son did Show up but we killed Him.
  Not likely, as the whole Jesus story is a myth.  Jesus might have been an actual person, but might not have been.

Quote
The Spirit cannot be seen as he is a Spirit.
  No, because he is imaginary.

Quote
But....We will see Him face to face, for now we see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed in the eschcaton.
  Only if you believe in the great spook in the sky.  You are one who cannot accept your mortality.  If it's easier, believe that one day you will meet your maker, and you will spend eternity on your knees praising him. 

I choose to live my life in the light of the enlightenment.  It is really bright here.  Try it.

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Offline Death over Life

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2011, 08:19:44 PM »
Seriously, do these people ever actually read their Bibles before coming up with their apologetics?

I have found out from another Christian site debating Christians that some Christians don't believe in apologetics, nor should be taught in church anymore.

Offline jetson

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2011, 08:22:46 PM »
Seriously, do these people ever actually read their Bibles before coming up with their apologetics?

I have found out from another Christian site debating Christians that some Christians don't believe in apologetics, nor should be taught in church anymore.

Wow.  Maybe they will finally STFU?  No?  Wishful thinking, I suppose.

Offline Death over Life

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2011, 08:29:02 PM »
Seriously, do these people ever actually read their Bibles before coming up with their apologetics?

I have found out from another Christian site debating Christians that some Christians don't believe in apologetics, nor should be taught in church anymore.

Wow.  Maybe they will finally STFU?  No?  Wishful thinking, I suppose.

From how they propose, not even close. Some of them don't believe they need to defend or explain their views at all anymore. If they would STFU, then it would be a good thing. Instead, we are seeing a more dark extreme fundamentalism.

Online kcrady

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2011, 02:30:19 AM »
The Father cannot be seen by humans as no one can see Him and live.

I take it you reject the doctrine of omnipotence then?  After all, an omnipotent god would, by definition, be able to show itself to a person without that person automatically dying.  Also: is it such a fine thing to come right out and admit that your god, like Medusa or Cthulhu, is inherently inimical to human life?

The Son did Show up but we killed Him.

Whaddaya mean "we?"  Also: again, omnipotence.  If "the Son" didn't want to be killed, would humans have been able to kill him?  If he did want to be killed, would humans have been able to avoid killing him?  Go read the Last Supper story in the Gospel of John where Jesus and Satan tag-team Judas and force him to "betray" Jesus.

The Spirit cannot be seen as he is a Spirit.

What other things are there that "the Spirit" cannot do?  Lift a paperclip?  Generate a little static electricity?  Just how weak is "the Spirit," anyway?

But....We will see Him face to face, for now we see through a glass darkly but all will be revealed in the eschcaton.

You mean, after you just went and told us that seeing him is impossible?  You're going to have to do better than that.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2011, 09:53:57 AM »
Yes, you can see the Holy Ghost.  Or at least you used to be able to:
Quote
Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Quote
Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Quote
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Quote
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

And you used to be able to see all of the Father except His face.  God was a man about 20' to 50' tall at that time.
Quote
Exodus 33:20 And He said, "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."

33:21 And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by and I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts:  but my face shall not be seen."

Ezekiel is more explicit.  God glows orange-yellow and has spectrum colors around Him.  No special mention of His face; it seems to glow like the rest. But what is with Ezekiel that he looks right at His crotch first?
Quote
Ezekiel 1:25 And there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads, when they stood, and had let down their wings. And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it. And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about. As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about.  This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD.  And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

And he said unto me, "Son of man, stand upon thy feet, and I will speak unto thee."

This was not Ezekiel's only experience.  In the other case the room was brightly lit but God was "just once of us/ Just a stranger on a bus".  Or like George Burns chatting with Bob Denver:
Quote
Ezekiel 43:4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.
 So the spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house. And I heard him speaking unto me out of the house; and the man stood by me. 

And he said unto me, "Son of man, the place of My throne, and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever, and My holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their
whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.



Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2011, 07:58:06 PM »
How did Moses(?) wrestle with god if he couldn't see him. If it was a tie before God cheated, then Moses was definitely stronger than god if he beat him in a wrestling match when god was invisible!
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Offline Nam

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2011, 10:09:12 AM »
You can't see what is not there.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline dloubet

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2011, 02:09:16 PM »
God hides himself out of embarrassment.

It's perfectly understandable.


"The Son did Show up but we killed Him"

Weren't we supposed to?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2011, 02:18:38 PM by dloubet »
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Offline ungod

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2011, 12:28:08 PM »
According to the bible, we are created in the image of god, (men anyway),

So, if we're made in the image of God, howcum unadorned photos of us are called "pornography"? Is God obscene?

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2011, 04:20:49 PM »
According to the bible, we are created in the image of god, (men anyway),
So, if we're made in the image of God, howcum unadorned photos of us are called "pornography"? Is God obscene?
I have it on good authority that in a lost book of the bible, it explains that god really didn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, he brought them all to heaven so he could join the orgy. He brought along Lot's wife because she liked to watch and he thought that was kinky.

Adam and Eve were banned from Eden because they started wearing clothes and god couldn't see their naughty bits. The apple wasn't an apple of wisdom, it was an apple of modesty and he didn't want that shit in heaven!
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Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2011, 08:02:37 PM »
Maybe the reason God hides Himself is because whom people truly love, they want to know more about.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2011, 08:18:59 PM »
Maybe the reason God hides Himself is because whom people truly love, they want to know more about.

So god hides because he doesn't love us and doesn't want to know about us?

Or are you saying people can really love a god that hides from us?

Can you truly love someone that hides from you? How exactly would that work? It wouldn't work in reality, where we live.

Atheists are generally more inquisitive and more knowledgeable about theology and the bible than Theists, so do you think we love the bible god more?

Doesn't hold up at all does it?
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Offline whatchamean?

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2011, 09:42:33 PM »
Quote
So god hides because he doesn't love us and doesn't want to know about us?
No. God already knows all about us. God only hides Himself from people who don't really want to find out about Him.

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." Jer.29:

Quote
Can you truly love someone that hides from you? How exactly would that work? It wouldn't work in reality, where we live.
It happens every day where we live. If we are really interested in finding out about a person, group, or any subject, we pour our hearts into it because we want to know.

Quote
Atheists are generally more inquisitive and more knowledgeable about theology and the bible than Theists, so do you think we love the bible god more?
Depends on what your motivation for learning is.

Quote
Doesn't hold up at all does it?
Not from your pov.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2011, 09:47:51 PM »
You didn't answer the big question. Why don't you pray for biblical clarity and explain it all for us?

There are millions of people that claim they are christians, but god doesn't reveal his word to, is it because they aren't "Real ChristiansTM?"

Has god ever spoken to you in a two way conversation? If so, why don't you tell us about it. If not, why not?
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why does God hide himself?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2011, 09:53:56 PM »
Quote
Can you truly love someone that hides from you? How exactly would that work? It wouldn't work in reality, where we live.
It happens every day where we live. If we are really interested in finding out about a person, group, or any subject, we pour our hearts into it because we want to know.

I'm a rational smart person, if god is real, I truly do want to know about him! If I were wrong I'd really like to know. I was once a christian, and I believed in him and prayed feverishly to him and I deluded myself into thinking that he really heard me and even answered me in a weird way. But I've realized that it wasn't true. It was a lie perpetuated by other "so called" christians who were afraid to face the truth.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !