Author Topic: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)  (Read 545 times)

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Offline Brakeman

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What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« on: September 29, 2011, 06:14:39 PM »
The old christian axe goes: When jesus died on the cross, he made the sacrifice to erase the sins of the believers.

Before he died, he told the thief on the cross that he would meet him in heaven. But wasn't that a few hours premature? He forgave the thief before he died because the thief believed. But the forgiveness action of atonement wasn't yet a fact.  So jesus or god could just as easily have forgiven men's sins before the sacrifice as afterward. His death was meaningless.

An all powerful god likewise would have no constraints such as a NEED for sacrifice. I've read a jewish rabbi's writings that explain the whole sacrifice for sins shtik as a response from the christian followers after his death to the jewish criticisms of the day as to why he wasn't the real messiah.

I'll see if I can find the link, it's interesting..
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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2011, 10:02:19 PM »
An all powerful god likewise would have no constraints such as a NEED for sacrifice.

This is a great point. It is one that I usually bring up to theists that I know, which they never seem to have an explanation for, except for the pitiful, "Well, God has a plan for everything."
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Offline pingnak

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2011, 10:59:57 PM »
It converted one living Jesus into one dead body.

Someone had to pry a desiccated beef jerky corpse off a cross, haul it back down into town and clean it up for the next round of executions.

It ended the fairy tale.

Offline Nodak

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2011, 03:43:15 AM »
Someone had to pry a desiccated beef jerky corpse off a cross, haul it back down into town and clean it up for the next round of executions.

Trouble is, I think part of the whole point of crucifixion is humilation and example for all to see. I do believe it was against Roman Law to take a dead body off the cross until government said so. Another hole in the story..............oh, and I don't think thievery was a capital offense in roman law either.

Offline velkyn

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2011, 09:00:56 AM »
The old christian axe goes: When jesus died on the cross, he made the sacrifice to erase the sins of the believers.

Before he died, he told the thief on the cross that he would meet him in heaven. But wasn't that a few hours premature?
or a few millenia since no one is to be in heaven except for Jewish virgins/eunuchs and everyone is dead until the final trump.

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2011, 09:17:46 AM »
The old christian axe goes: When jesus died on the cross, he made the sacrifice to erase the sins of the believers.

Before he died, he told the thief on the cross that he would meet him in heaven. But wasn't that a few hours premature?
or a few millenia since no one is to be in heaven except for Jewish virgins/eunuchs and everyone is dead until the final trump.
those 2000 year old dead people have missed a lot of God butt kissing time lol
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2011, 09:29:05 AM »
Someone had to pry a desiccated beef jerky corpse off a cross, haul it back down into town and clean it up for the next round of executions.

Trouble is, I think part of the whole point of crucifixion is humilation and example for all to see. I do believe it was against Roman Law to take a dead body off the cross until government said so. Another hole in the story..............oh, and I don't think thievery was a capital offense in roman law either.

The Jewish law was that he had to be buried before sunset and for some reason the jewish law/ traditon was allowed.

Quote
When jesus died on the cross, he made the sacrifice to erase the sins of the believers

It also made a statment about the creulty of the jewish people since they were the one that had him killed. 
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2011, 03:00:11 PM »
The old christian axe goes: When jesus died on the cross, he made the sacrifice to erase the sins of the believers.

Before he died, he told the thief on the cross that he would meet him in heaven. But wasn't that a few hours premature? He forgave the thief before he died because the thief believed. But the forgiveness action of atonement wasn't yet a fact.  So jesus or god could just as easily have forgiven men's sins before the sacrifice as afterward. His death was meaningless.

An all powerful god likewise would have no constraints such as a NEED for sacrifice. I've read a jewish rabbi's writings that explain the whole sacrifice for sins shtik as a response from the christian followers after his death to the jewish criticisms of the day as to why he wasn't the real messiah.

I'll see if I can find the link, it's interesting..

Here are the exact words of the exchange between the thieves and the words that were attributed to Jesus according to Luke:

Quote
Then, one of the criminals who was hanging there started speaking badly to him, saying, 'Aren't you the Anointed One? So, save yourself… and us!'
But the other scolded him saying, 'Aren't you at all afraid of God, since you've received the same judgment? And that's only right, because we're getting what we deserve in full for the bad things we've done. But he didn't do anything wrong!'
Then he said, 'Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.'
And [Jesus] replied, 'I tell you this today; You will be with me in Paradise.'

THe 1st thing to note is that Heaven is nowhere mentioned. The assumption made is that "Paradise" and Heaven are one and the same, however such an assumption is but an assumption that cannot be substantiated and frankly it is one that has very little textual support. Secondly, there's the issue of punctuation. No one knows for certain where the comma or semicolon should be placed. What that means it that it is just as likely that Jesus was telling the guy THAT DAY that he would be in in Paradise with Jesus eventually as it was that he was telling the guy that on THAT VERY DAY the both of them were going to Paradise.

On another note, looking at some of what Jesus supposedly said about his purposes, it would appear that his "Earthly life" was in some ways a test or proving grounds for him in order that he could receive what was "promised by his Father."
What that implies is that Jesus' life and eventual sacrifice was not all about Jesus' love for man, but was also about his desire to receive what he believed was promised to him by his Father. He is said to have believed that his Father would give him authority of all things including death, and Jesus spoke of rewarding those who "believed in him/kept his precepts" with the gift of life that he would be able to bestow based on the authority given him by his Father. What that belief suggests is that Jesus' sacrifice of his life even to the point of death make it so that he would be rewarded by his Father and that after being rewarded he would then reward those who "believed in him/kept his precepts."

Offline velkyn

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2011, 03:13:15 PM »
THe 1st thing to note is that Heaven is nowhere mentioned. The assumption made is that "Paradise" and Heaven are one and the same, however such an assumption is but an assumption that cannot be substantiated and frankly it is one that has very little textual support.
so what do you think JC was intended to be meaning when saying "paradise" if it isn't to be taken as "heaven"?   At the time this was likely written, I'm guessing that "paradise" was probably pretty familar to a greek speaking audience on what it meant.




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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2011, 03:45:17 PM »
THe 1st thing to note is that Heaven is nowhere mentioned. The assumption made is that "Paradise" and Heaven are one and the same, however such an assumption is but an assumption that cannot be substantiated and frankly it is one that has very little textual support.
so what do you think JC was intended to be meaning when saying "paradise" if it isn't to be taken as "heaven"?   At the time this was likely written, I'm guessing that "paradise" was probably pretty familar to a greek speaking audience on what it meant.

Always the possibility that the guy was delusional from all the beatings and whippings and being hung up in the hot ass desert sun...

Maybe he was just delerious and babbling. "Yes, we'll be together in Paradise. Unnnngh. And Unicorns made of ice cream will fly thee to thy rest friend thief. Sim sim salabim! The malevolence of a transcendent camel does truly bring great shame upon the house of Ishmael! Pllllbbbbhhhhttt <raspberries> "

<shrug> I can totally see it. Assuming the guy was real n' stuff, anyway.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 03:46:57 PM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What exactly did jesus's death change? (per the babble)
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2011, 04:20:29 PM »
THe 1st thing to note is that Heaven is nowhere mentioned. The assumption made is that "Paradise" and Heaven are one and the same, however such an assumption is but an assumption that cannot be substantiated and frankly it is one that has very little textual support.
so what do you think JC was intended to be meaning when saying "paradise" if it isn't to be taken as "heaven"?   At the time this was likely written, I'm guessing that "paradise" was probably pretty familar to a greek speaking audience on what it meant.

I can't say for sure what he meant. He may have meant the good side of "Abraham's Bosom" spoken of in Luke 16, he could have meant the "resurrection world" he told the Sadducees and his followers about, and he may in fact could have been speaking of Heaven.
In a nutshell, all I'm saying is that equating Paradise with Heaven is a leap that should not be automatic.