Author Topic: Cherrypicking for Tolerance  (Read 596 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline curiousgirl

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 886
  • Darwins +22/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Inquisitive agnostic atheist
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2011, 07:10:54 PM »
The author of that article seems to love her magic decoder ring:

Quote
As we learn, we grow, and our understanding and interpretation of Scripture changes.

I'll bet it does. And the changes probably happen to be very convenient ones.  ;D
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline violatedsmurf80

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2011, 07:38:13 PM »
i would of used chary instead of cherry for this one.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2011, 09:11:22 PM »
The author of that article seems to love her magic decoder ring:

Quote
As we learn, we grow, and our understanding and interpretation of Scripture changes.

I'll bet it does. And the changes probably happen to be very convenient ones.  ;D

Yeah I was thinking much the same thing. Instead of SPAG we get SPATBIT, Self projection as the biblical interpreted truth.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4878
  • Darwins +559/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2011, 11:15:47 PM »
Would you prefer the rabid, fire-breathing "gays are evil" type of Christian?

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2011, 06:46:44 AM »
Would you prefer the rabid, fire-breathing "gays are evil" type of Christian?
No, however, I was just using this as yet another example of how cherry picking and interpretation will always end up supporting any position, even if it is diametrically opposed to another "Biblical" position.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12245
  • Darwins +662/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2011, 08:35:44 AM »
Here is my problem:  when people come to "new, better interpretations" of the bible, why is the bible not ammended?  Why not take out those confusing/ misleading/ easy to misinterpret verses in genesis or leviticus about stoning homos or whores or adulterers?  Because if you leave them there, some asshole down the road is just going to make a regressive interpretation and undo all the "progress" made.  Why allow that?  Why take that chance?  When we have dumb laws, we take them off the books[1]. When we have wrong ideas, we edit the science books, or history books or whatever.  What is wrong with saying "cripes, man, whomever put the bible together had some ass-backwards ideas about women.  Let's take that shit out"?  If people actually think their interpretation is what god wants, then it is their responsibility to change the bible.
 1. yeah, yeah, not always.  but we should
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline plethora

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Darwins +60/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Metalhead, Family Man, IT Admin & Anti-Theist \m/
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2011, 09:02:33 AM »
^^ Do that and watch the bible slowly disappear before their very eyes to the point where it can be summarized in a single page.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6566
  • Darwins +864/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2011, 09:50:18 AM »
And then it will be small enough to be drowned in a bathtub.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline theczar

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2011, 10:17:47 AM »
As we all know, once you open the Bible's meaning up to interpetation, any point can be supported. I find this laughable, if the Bible is clear on anything, it's homosexuality. Here's a blog post where a gay Christian answers questions.

http://rachelheldevans.com/ask-a-gay-christian-response

Quote
"The more I studied, the more convinced I became that we Christians had applied a different standard to the homosexuality texts than we had to other Scriptural texts, and that condemning Christ-centered relationships solely based on gender was actually inconsistent with biblical teaching.

Really? Because it sounds like you know what you wanted the Bible to say, so you just "studied" and "prayed" until you came to the interpretation you desired.  &)




Offline albeto

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 689
  • Darwins +70/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2011, 10:29:24 AM »
As we all know, once you open the Bible's meaning up to interpetation, any point can be supported. I find this laughable, if the Bible is clear on anything, it's homosexuality. Here's a blog post where a gay Christian answers questions.

http://rachelheldevans.com/ask-a-gay-christian-response

Quote
"The more I studied, the more convinced I became that we Christians had applied a different standard to the homosexuality texts than we had to other Scriptural texts, and that condemning Christ-centered relationships solely based on gender was actually inconsistent with biblical teaching.

Really? Because it sounds like you know what you wanted the Bible to say, so you just "studied" and "prayed" until you came to the interpretation you desired.  &)

If the bible is clear on anything, it's how to find SPAG.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 10:31:01 AM by albeto »

Online jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4878
  • Darwins +559/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 11:31:05 AM »
Would you prefer the rabid, fire-breathing "gays are evil" type of Christian?
No, however, I was just using this as yet another example of how cherry picking and interpretation will always end up supporting any position, even if it is diametrically opposed to another "Biblical" position.
People aren't exactly rational about stuff like this, I agree.

I think the only effective way to get around this is to legally require equal treatment regardless of what a book like the Bible says, the same way it works with non-religious forms of intolerance.

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
  • Darwins +50/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 02:35:37 PM »
Well, obviously, I prefer to share the planet with the more tolerant type of theist than the less tolerant type...

But, the 'tolerant' theists, by performing these feats of intellectual contortionism, reinforce the fundamentalist position no matter what...as long as it is forbidden to say that the Bible is just a book of created by human authors and is therefore no more sacred than "Valley of the Dolls," the liberal Xians ultimately support the Fundies, despite the liberals' intentions. 

As long as the delusion that bible is a magical book of truth persists, the fundies and the libs will continue to argue over minor points, but remain in agreement about the fact that everyone else is going to hell. 

Frankly, I doubt if Xians really worship an invisible man in the sky.  I think most really worship the bible, specifically the version of the bible they possess, as interpreted by their favorite preacher.  Who can really hold in his head a convincing image of a giant invisible perfect ominiscent eternal man in the sky?  Whereas a human can hold a mental image of a book quite easily.  Simple idol worship is all. 

Online jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4878
  • Darwins +559/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 07:26:04 PM »
Actually, not all Christians believe that nonbelievers are going to hell.  I would say that most of them believe it's only the bad people who go to hell, with some believing there is no such thing as hell (whether it's the pit of fire and brimstone or the "spiritual desert").

Though you do have a point that most Christians are effectively substituting the Bible for God or Jesus.  Some Christians avoid that trap, but most fall for it hook and sinker.

Offline Babdah

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Darwins +4/-3
  • “We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 09:47:56 PM »
Quote
not all Christians believe that nonbelievers are going to hell.

Every body goes to hell, you have to realize that Hell is a different place than the Lake of Fire. Hell is a temporary place of waiting for judgment and Lake of Fire is the place of eternal punishment. Flat earth play a role in this, Phil. 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And then there are seven verses in Revelation that refers to a 'bottomless pit', and that the center of the earth would be a 'bottomless pit' which is the Lake of Fire and under the earth is Hell. what nobody listen to Nirvana  ;)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 09:49:48 PM by Babdah »
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2011, 07:40:37 AM »
Quote
not all Christians believe that nonbelievers are going to hell.

Every body goes to hell, you have to realize that Hell is a different place than the Lake of Fire. Hell is a temporary place of waiting for judgment and Lake of Fire is the place of eternal punishment. Flat earth play a role in this, Phil. 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And then there are seven verses in Revelation that refers to a 'bottomless pit', and that the center of the earth would be a 'bottomless pit' which is the Lake of Fire and under the earth is Hell. what nobody listen to Nirvana  ;)

You say these things as if they are absolutes. The exact mythological cosmology of the afterlife varies widely according to the Christian sect, subsect, or believer. Hell could be;

(1)temporary until judgement day,
(2) for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior
(3)occur immediately and forever after death
(4)vary in intensity of punishment according to one's sinfulness
(5)simple exinction
(6)a place without god of nothing but darkness...no torture just a perpetual feeling of "you missed heaven, sorry sucker" not dissimilar to the greek Hades
(7)Only for evil people
(8)vary in length for peoples sinfulness, including things that are "sins" only for a particular sect. Like eating meat on a Friday in 1968 that you never confessed to a preist

Welcome to mythology; where not only is SPAG omnipresent...the entire cosmos is a YMMV situation.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Babdah

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Darwins +4/-3
  • “We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 11:36:06 AM »
Quote
You say these things as if they are absolutes. The exact mythological cosmology of the afterlife varies widely according to the Christian sect, subsect, or believer. Hell could be;

(1)temporary until judgement day,
(2) for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior
(3)occur immediately and forever after death
(4)vary in intensity of punishment according to one's sinfulness
(5)simple exinction
(6)a place without god of nothing but darkness...no torture just a perpetual feeling of "you missed heaven, sorry sucker" not dissimilar to the greek Hades
(7)Only for evil people
(8)vary in length for peoples sinfulness, including things that are "sins" only for a particular sect. Like eating meat on a Friday in 1968 that you never confessed to a preist

Welcome to mythology; where not only is SPAG omnipresent...the entire cosmos is a YMMV situation.

Let me ask you a question, Have you ever spoken with any that had died? If so please inform all of us how it really is. every religion has there version of hell just because some crazy person decides to interpret the way they want does not mean that they are right the bible tells us what the christian hell is point blank. history tell us that something happen by numerous account lets look at the flood story apparently something happen that caused a flood, it in almost every ancient text. just like the story of the grim reaper being on the out side of fields before the plague broke the same thing happen when the Spanish flu occurred, some call it the moth man some call it the grim reaper. are these guys wrong, there are numerous accounts so why would they be wrong with the bible? God admits he is a jealous god so that says that there is other god?
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2011, 12:14:41 PM »
Quote
You say these things as if they are absolutes. The exact mythological cosmology of the afterlife varies widely according to the Christian sect, subsect, or believer. Hell could be;

(1)temporary until judgement day,
(2) for anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior
(3)occur immediately and forever after death
(4)vary in intensity of punishment according to one's sinfulness
(5)simple exinction
(6)a place without god of nothing but darkness...no torture just a perpetual feeling of "you missed heaven, sorry sucker" not dissimilar to the greek Hades
(7)Only for evil people
(8)vary in length for peoples sinfulness, including things that are "sins" only for a particular sect. Like eating meat on a Friday in 1968 that you never confessed to a preist

Welcome to mythology; where not only is SPAG omnipresent...the entire cosmos is a YMMV situation.

Let me ask you a question, Have you ever spoken with any that had died?



No, no one has. Dead is dead. There no more.


 If so please inform all of us how it really is. every religion has there version of hell just because some crazy person decides to interpret the way they want does not mean that they are right the bible tells us what the christian hell is point blank. history tell us that something happen by numerous account lets look at the flood story apparently something happen that caused a flood, it in almost every ancient text. just like the story of the grim reaper being on the out side of fields before the plague broke the same thing happen when the Spanish flu occurred, some call it the moth man some call it the grim reaper. are these guys wrong, there are numerous accounts so why would they be wrong with the bible? God admits he is a jealous god so that says that there is other god?

If the Bible "Tells us what Christian hell is point Blank;" then why do major sect of Christianity disagree? I'll tell you why, because they have decided "x" is true, and can find whatever passages or reasoning they need to to back it up. None of the 8 vairious and somewhat contradictory "facts" about hell are from little 200 person splinter Christian denominations. They all are from major sects.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2011, 01:01:55 PM »
Let me ask you a question, Have you ever spoken with any that had died? If so please inform all of us how it really is.
like you just tried to do?   &)

Quote
every religion has there version of hell just because some crazy person decides to interpret the way they want does not mean that they are right the bible tells us what the christian hell is point blank.
Some crazy person? Like you who has no evidence that your particular "interpretation" is right?

Quote
history tell us that something happen by numerous account lets look at the flood story apparently something happen that caused a flood, it in almost every ancient text.
No, it doesn't.  There is no evidence for any global flood.  All we have are myths about how "evil" is dealt with by a god, and floods are a handy tool since all civilizations are built around rivers.

Quote
just like the story of the grim reaper being on the out side of fields before the plague broke the same thing happen when the Spanish flu occurred, some call it the moth man some call it the grim reaper. are these guys wrong, there are numerous accounts so why would they be wrong with the bible? God admits he is a jealous god so that says that there is other god?
Just becasue people have delusions and a lot of them do have them, this doesn't mean that delusions are real.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Babdah

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
  • Darwins +4/-3
  • “We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2011, 07:14:26 PM »
Quote
like you just tried to do?   &)

Please tell me were i tried to talk to the dead?

Quote
Like you who has no evidence that your particular "interpretation" is right?

Prove me other wise

Quote
No, it doesn't.  There is no evidence for any global flood.  All we have are myths about how "evil" is dealt with by a god, and floods are a handy tool since all civilizations are built around rivers.

then how do you know that a river did not rise and to them kill all that they know maybe it tramatized them and to them that is how they felt.

Quote
Just becasue people have delusions and a lot of them do have them, this doesn't mean that delusions are real.

what do you consider a delusion? if you had a dream that told you to play some numbers but you did not and the next day the numbers were on tv and you told you B/F BFF or husband that you had a dream about them. would that be consider a delusion to you?
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

Offline plethora

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3456
  • Darwins +60/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Metalhead, Family Man, IT Admin & Anti-Theist \m/
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2011, 05:06:32 AM »
Quote from: velkyn
like you just tried to do?   &)

Please tell me were i tried to talk to the dead?

Ever pray to Jesus? He's dead isn't he?

Besides, Velkyn was referring to your ironically trying to tell us what the afterlife is like and then calling anyone who has any other explanation crazy just because it disagrees with yours.

Quote from: velkyn
Like you who has no evidence that your particular "interpretation" is right?

Prove me other wise

No... you need to prove your claims are true. We have no obligation to prove you wrong. You make the claim, you have the burden of proof.

So ... where's you proof?

Quote from: Veklyn
No, it doesn't.  There is no evidence for any global flood.  All we have are myths about how "evil" is dealt with by a god, and floods are a handy tool since all civilizations are built around rivers.

then how do you know that a river did not rise and to them kill all that they know maybe it tramatized them and to them that is how they felt.

Oh the irony!! The bible says the earth was covered and everything died except what was on the Ark. So now it's okay for your to reinterpret the bible?

Not only do you have no proof of any such flood event, but you are a colossal hypocrite.

Quote
Just becasue people have delusions and a lot of them do have them, this doesn't mean that delusions are real.

what do you consider a delusion? if you had a dream that told you to play some numbers but you did not and the next day the numbers were on tv and you told you B/F BFF or husband that you had a dream about them. would that be consider a delusion to you?

No. That's called a coincidence.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2011, 08:18:47 AM »
Please tell me were i tried to talk to the dead?
Actually, I mean how you try to“inform all of us how it really is.”, although Pleth has a good, and rather funny, point.
Quote
Prove me other wise
Really, you want to go there?  Let’s see, you claimed this
Quote
every religion has there version of hell just because some crazy person decides to interpret the way they want does not mean that they are right the bible tells us what the christian hell is point blank.
and I responded 
Quote
Some crazy person? Like you who has no evidence that your particular "interpretation" is right?
It’s funny how you want to claim that anyone who disagrees with you is “the crazy person” but you have no more evidence than them that your claims are valid.  You make a claim that you are right, now prove it. I have seen theist after theist claim that they know what their god “really” meant and how they and they alone know what their holy book “really” says.  Each of you cherry picks what you want and declares “the bible says “x” point blank”. The problem is that you all contradict each other. I have yet to see any of you show that your particular interpretation is the only right one.  I also have yet to see any Christian actually be able to do the magic that JC promised they could do.  Are there any actual Christians around, certainly doesn’t seem like it.

Quote
then how do you know that a river did not rise and to them kill all that they know maybe it tramatized them and to them that is how they felt.
That’s what I’m saying, no gods needed and all of these gods are imaginary.  Again, this simply points to humans and not to any magical sky fairy.  You tried to claim this, Babs
Quote
history tell us that something happen by numerous account lets look at the flood story apparently something happen that caused a flood, it in almost every ancient text.
  History doesn’t tell us that something, e.g. one flood event, happened. History shows that floods happen and history shows that humans use myths in an attempt to describe their world and their place in it. No supernatural nonsense needed.
Quote
what do you consider a delusion? if you had a dream that told you to play some numbers but you did not and the next day the numbers were on tv and you told you B/F BFF or husband that you had a dream about them. would that be consider a delusion to you?
The wiki entry is a nice definition “A delusion is a false belief held with absolute conviction despite superior evidence”  And I would consider your scenario to be purely coincidence, just like Pleth said.  If it repeated, then I might consider something else is going on and study it further.  I’ll note that woo meisters like you completely depend on parlor tricks and coincidence for their evidence that they know some magical “secret” to the universe.  It’s common and rather pathetic.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2685
  • Darwins +76/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cherrypicking for Tolerance
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2011, 01:43:45 PM »
what nobody listen to Nirvana  ;)

So what you're saying is that we get to see the dead again on the fourth of July, is that correct?
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.