Author Topic: What Now?  (Read 2875 times)

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Online Zankuu

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2011, 11:29:51 AM »
TOT is projecting his indoctrination on those who are no longer indoctrinated, as if they need to account emotionally for believing in what they don't believe.

Not in this thread.

Yes, in this thread:

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With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless.

Wording it the way you did makes it sound devious in nature. I read it as an explanation of how thoughts of godlessness makes him feel. Nothing more.

I do not, I expect people who demonstrate a willingness to conduct themselves dishonestly to do so again.

On a certain level I do expect the same, but I felt velkyn jumped the gun on this one.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Truth OT

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2011, 11:36:17 AM »
velks, FWIW I was also a little confused as to why you aggressively sunk your fangs in ToT here. I thought it was an honest question about how ex-Christians dealt with their deconversion process and overcame the initial sulking stage. Seemed devoid of an ulterior motive to me. *shrug*

TOT is projecting his indoctrination on those who are no longer indoctrinated, as if they need to account emotionally for believing in what they don't believe.  Plus, TOT has a history of dishonest behavior that has earned him a negative stereotype.  Are we supposed to pretend like TOT is trying to be reasonable now?

You sure do have a way with people Omen.............
You Mrs. V jump in the thread with apparently no intention of addressing the topic up for discussion and immediately go into attack mode for NO REASON AT ALL!
As far as my history, it is one that clearly feel you are an ass and your actions via posting do very little to show that to be an incorrect assumption. If you would actually read and consider what I have said, it will become clear that a change of mind is being illustrated, but for whatever reason you and another don't want to see the obvious. So rather than continuing to go back and forth with you pointlessly let me say: "Whatevea man, you got it, and I ain't mad atcha."
With that, hopefully we're cool and as long as you don't start nothing, won't be nothing.

Offline Omen

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2011, 11:39:36 AM »
You Mrs. V jump in the thread with apparently no intention of addressing the topic

She addressed your topic.

Not much to those “thoughts” is there since there is no evidence that any of their claims come true?

The rest of your post is .. really incoherent drivel.  I'm forced to conclude that it is yet again.. another obfuscating red herring with no intention of responding or acknowledging the responses you do get.  I also responded to your post without response:

I'm interested in knowing how former Christians have dealt with these issues and been able to find a point to it all after ditching a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.

So you're wondering how people who do not believe in a silly fairy tale deal with emotional dependencies only related to actually believing the silly fairy tale as if it were true?

Value is not defined by belief in random superstition, it should be immediately obvious.  If you're no longer indoctrinated then you are no longer indoctrinated, its meaningless to ask how I feel about what was meaningless to begin with and there is no need to replace the indoctrination.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 11:41:48 AM by Omen »
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Online Zankuu

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2011, 11:54:08 AM »
The rest of your post is .. really incoherent drivel.

Damn strong words. Where is the incoherent drivel?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Omen

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2011, 12:01:49 PM »
The rest of your post is .. really incoherent drivel.

Damn strong words. Where is the incoherent drivel?

Oh you missed it Zankuu? Do you really need it pointed out?

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As far as my history, it is one that clearly feel you are an ass and your actions via posting do very little to show that to be an incorrect assumption. If you would actually read and consider what I have said, it will become clear that a change of mind is being illustrated, but for whatever reason you and another don't want to see the obvious. So rather than continuing to go back and forth with you pointlessly let me say: "Whatevea man, you got it, and I ain't mad atcha."
With that, hopefully we're cool and as long as you don't start nothing, won't be nothing.

Can you make anything from this nonsense?  I see some pleading, a blank dismissal, a couple red herrings, and what I do not see is a coherent argument.  The only thing I chose to respond to is his blatant lie: "in the thread with apparently no intention of addressing the topic up for discussion".  Velkyn clearly addressed his summarized conclusion with a question that specifically challenges his own implied faulty premises.  She then went on to elaborate further and the only thing TOT decides to respond too is that which he construe the largest red herring from and later assert that his 'topic' was never addressed.

Is that honest behavior?

Are we supposed to pretend like TOT doesn't know when he's had his dishonesty pointed out and challenged in the past, yet chose to ignore it?
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2011, 12:32:01 PM »
Is that honest behavior?

Are we supposed to pretend like TOT doesn't know when he's had his dishonesty pointed out and challenged in the past, yet chose to ignore it?

I don't know, it sounds like TOT came here full of piss and vinegar, thinking he was a OneTrueChristian with the SPAG and Cherrypicking that made sense to him. And it might have finally sunk in on him after his arguments got shot up again, and again, and again and yet again, then thought that; "hey...perhaps there's something to this atheism thing anyway"

Therefore he is now going through the emotional shakes of withdrawl of the pretty illusion. You know; "snif, snif, Santa ain't real, No magic...that's kinda sad. Snif Snif. " A lot of us have been there. Finding out that there is no grand purpose, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, it is disheartening.  I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt unless he goes back to his old ways. If he's fucking with us....then he can go shit in his hat.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2011, 12:44:10 PM »

[You Mrs. V jump in the thread with apparently no intention of addressing the topic up for discussion and immediately go into attack mode for NO REASON AT ALL!
That's quite a tale you are telling  there, TOT.   I did address the topic, which is this, correct?

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I'm interested in knowing how former Christians have dealt with these issues and been able to find a point to it all after ditching a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.
I said, like other, that I find my own meaning and my own purpose.  That is addressing the topic, is it not?  Now, I also pointed out where your claims in your post failed.  Perhaps you didn’t like this but I find it germaine to the discussion.  Claims like this:
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a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.
  Other things can and do.  And even when a believer I didn’t only have this as any “ultimate purpose” nor did I find life meaningless without this god.  Can a “true Christian” feel this way?  Well, I did. 
Quote
With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless.
  Now, if you had said “to me it really makes existence depressing and ultimately meaningless”, that’s one thing but to me this reads as you are claiming that Christianity is the only thing that does give purpose to live and that to not have this makes everyone depressed about existence and that they all find things ultimately meaningless. 

I may have been wrong with assuming that but considering your prior posts, I am working from the context that you are indeed a believer and I am making an educated guess that you do believe that atheists don’t have any “ultimate meaning” in our lives.  Am I correct in this?  It seems so since you ask how we dealt with the issues of losing the idea that there is some “ultimate” meaning and the support to our egos.  You seem to assume that we did feel depressed about losing the meaning of life. 

Now, assuming that as a believer you do think you have an ultimate purpose and the support to your ego, I asked you for a reply to your own questions:
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Now, TOT, what meaning do you have in your life?  IS it only to worship this deity as it requires per its magic book?  Because that’s all it wants or finds important.  With your playing Pascal’s wager, you seem to be playing with fire since unless this is all you are doing, you aren’t doing what the bible says will get you into this magical afterlife.
  I am taking from the bible that the only thing important to your god is worship.  I’m also taking from your own words, back on the “might equals right” thread that you are wagering that you have the right god and the right way to worship it to get the “eternal life” you seem to want very much.  I’m curious on how you come to terms with your own problems with the purpose of life and what meaning it has. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2011, 12:50:04 PM »
Can you make anything from this nonsense? 

I can.  Let me help.

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As far as my history, it is one that clearly feel you are an ass...
you, omen, are an ass...

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and your actions via posting do very little to show that to be an incorrect assumption.

your posting shows that you are an ass...

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If you would actually read and consider what I have said,
If you would actually read what he says instead of projecting...

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...it will become clear that a change of mind is being illustrated,
you would see his beliefs about gods have changed since coming here...

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but for whatever reason you and another don't want to see the obvious.
but you're an ass.  So, you haven't noticed the obvious.

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So rather than continuing to go back and forth with you pointlessly let me say: "Whatevea man, you got it, and I ain't mad atcha."
rather than continue to argue with an ass (you), he's going to let it go.

Quote
With that, hopefully we're cool and as long as you don't start nothing, won't be nothing.
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Offline Omen

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2011, 12:59:53 PM »
TOT is projecting his indoctrination on those who are no longer indoctrinated, as if they need to account emotionally for believing in what they don't believe.

Not in this thread.

Yes, in this thread:

Quote
With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless.

Wording it the way you did makes it sound devious in nature. I read it as an explanation of how thoughts of godlessness makes him feel. Nothing more.

I've changed nothing and in fact, I asked him questions ( which he predictably ignores ).

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20198.msg445732.html#msg445732

I'm interested in knowing how former Christians have dealt with these issues and been able to find a point to it all after ditching a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.

So you're wondering how people who do not believe in a silly fairy tale deal with emotional dependencies only related to actually believing the silly fairy tale as if it were true?

Value is not defined by belief in random superstition, it should be immediately obvious.  If you're no longer indoctrinated then you are no longer indoctrinated, its meaningless to ask how I feel about what was meaningless to begin with and there is no need to replace the indoctrination.
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2011, 01:34:34 PM »
Quote
For anyone that was formerly a Christian; when you lost believe that the faith you held was the truth; what was the next step? As Christians, I'm sure you were taught the following:

Next step ?  JP Fitzpatricks Pub & Grill !!! ...... An awesome bender I'll never forget ! A great night of Guiness, Bushmills shots, and the best god damned Irish Stew I've ever had  ;D

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You see, if the dead aren't going to be raised, the Anointed One hasn't been raised! And if the Anointed One hasn't been raised, our faith is useless… we're still sinners, and all those who fell asleep in the Anointed One are just gone! And if we've put our hope in the Anointed One for this life only, then we're the most pitiful of all men.

Once the facade crumbled, scripture verses like this became meaningless. Pity is unnecessary and uncalled for in the atheists world. We don't need or want the theists feelings of sorrow for us as they are completely unneeded and laughable to us.

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as well as:

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'All is foolishness and waste,' said he, the great congregator. 'Foolishness and waste… all that's done is in vain. What value is all a man gains from his trouble, for which he's worked hard under the sun?'
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With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless. I'm interested in knowing how former Christians have dealt with these issues and been able to find a point to it all after ditching a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.

Maybe for you. But not for me. What became depressing and meaningless for me was the reality of my servitude to an abstract and baseless idea born of primitive ignorance and reasoning. Now THAT was depressing!! ;)

Finding a point to it all ?? No no, we must make a point to it all. It's completely lazy to try and find someone elses supposed buried treasure. You must make your own treasure here and now.

I can't even put to words how pathetic it is to think that religion and the god idea bring self-esteem like nothing esle can. If in your opinion delusion brings out the best of self-esteem in an individual, then that's possibly the worst opinion I may have ever heard in my life   
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 01:44:56 PM by gonegolfing »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2011, 01:39:34 PM »
Now, I also pointed out where your claims in your post failed.  Perhaps you didn’t like this but I find it germaine to the discussion.  Claims like this:
Quote
a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.
 
Other things can and do.  And even when a believer I didn’t only have this as any “ultimate purpose” nor did I find life meaningless without this god.  Can a “true Christian” feel this way?  Well, I did. 
Quote
With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless.
  Now, if you had said “to me it really makes existence depressing and ultimately meaningless”, that’s one thing but to me this reads as you are claiming that Christianity is the only thing that does give purpose to live and that to not have this makes everyone depressed about existence and that they all find things ultimately meaningless.

I can give you the benefit of the doubt Velkyn, as I may have read some hostility into the tone of your replies that you had not indeeded to convey.
As far as pointing out where my claims fail, why take on such an undertaking? I'm sure you realize that the christian faith teaches that we are not to love the world because everything in it is passing away and that the believers is to fix their mind on Christ because everything that truly means anything is in Christ. If a person ahd fully bought into this mindset and is eventually drawn away from it, do you not understand how they could feel that existence is ultimately meaningless? In this thread I am expressing how I and perhaps others who have been in my shoes have felt, yet you by way of your responses have (perhap inadvertantly) dismissed those feelings as if such feelings are somehow irrelevant or less valuable than what you have felt. 
 
I may have been wrong with assuming that but considering your prior posts, I am working from the context that you are indeed a believer and I am making an educated guess that you do believe that atheists don’t have any “ultimate meaning” in our lives.  Am I correct in this?  It seems so since you ask how we dealt with the issues of losing the idea that there is some “ultimate” meaning and the support to our egos.  You seem to assume that we did feel depressed about losing the meaning of life. 

Now, assuming that as a believer you do think you have an ultimate purpose and the support to your ego, I asked you for a reply to your own questions: Now, TOT, what meaning do you have in your life?  IS it only to worship this deity as it requires per its magic book?  Because that’s all it wants or finds important.  With your playing Pascal’s wager, you seem to be playing with fire since unless this is all you are doing, you aren’t doing what the bible says will get you into this magical afterlife. I am taking from the bible that the only thing important to your god is worship.  I’m also taking from your own words, back on the “might equals right” thread that you are wagering that you have the right god and the right way to worship it to get the “eternal life” you seem to want very much.  I’m curious on how you come to terms with your own problems with the purpose of life and what meaning it has.

As a believer I was fully convinced that this life, whether one were living it as a christian, atheist, or something else, was devoid of ultimate value since in the end we all die and the universe and everything in it would all come crashing down undoing anything that had ever been done, etc., etc., etc. My thought is not that atheists should be depressed, but rather that if all will ultimately come to nothing, then there is not anything that is truly meaningful because nothing endures. To me, that is saddening and deflating.
As a believer, I believed that my ultimate purpose was to live and have an enduring life that would not end. That is what was promised by my faith and that idea resonated with me. As far as what meaning I feel my life has now, I can't really say. Ultimately, I doubt there is one for if meaning can be derived subjectively, then to me, meaning is meaningless.

Offline velkyn

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2011, 02:01:04 PM »
I can give you the benefit of the doubt Velkyn, as I may have read some hostility into the tone of your replies that you had not indeeded to convey.
As far as pointing out where my claims fail, why take on such an undertaking? I'm sure you realize that the christian faith teaches that we are not to love the world because everything in it is passing away and that the believers is to fix their mind on Christ because everything that truly means anything is in Christ. If a person ahd fully bought into this mindset and is eventually drawn away from it, do you not understand how they could feel that existence is ultimately meaningless? In this thread I am expressing how I and perhaps others who have been in my shoes have felt, yet you by way of your responses have (perhap inadvertantly) dismissed those feelings as if such feelings are somehow irrelevant or less valuable than what you have felt.
Why take on such an undertaking of showing your basic assumptions aren’t true?  Well, because they aren’t true.:)  Christian faith has a lot of teachings and Christians all have their own versions of it.  I can show plenty that are sure that they are Christians and who don’t believe at all that they should not love the world and its treasures.  That whole “prosperity gospel” nonsense is the big one, and unfortunately for believers, it seems as valid as any other version of Christianity, just depends what parts you ignore and what parts you keep.

and yes, I can understand that if one bought into this, one could be depressed and find that life is meaningless.  However, that’s one of the things that I find to be a wrong assumption in your claims.  Why assume “no god = meaningless existence”?  This does nothing more than make you feel bad.  I don’t intend on dismissing such feelings, because I know they can be very real but the assumptions supporting them aren’t based on reality. That’s what I was getting at.   

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As a believer I was fully convinced that this life, whether one were living it as a christian, atheist, or something else, was devoid of ultimate value since in the end we all die and the universe and everything in it would all come crashing down undoing anything that had ever been done, etc., etc., etc. My thought is not that atheists should be depressed, but rather that if all will ultimately come to nothing, then there is not anything that is truly meaningful because nothing endures. To me, that is saddening and deflating.
  I have a question, what would you take as a worthy “ultimate value” for your life? 
Quote
As a believer, I believed that my ultimate purpose was to live and have an enduring life that would not end. That is what was promised by my faith and that idea resonated with me. As far as what meaning I feel my life has now, I can't really say. Ultimately, I doubt there is one for if meaning can be derived subjectively, then to me, meaning is meaningless.
   Oh I fully understand how very appealing having eternal life is.  That does make it hard to let go religion, which promises that a person is the most important thing in the world to an omniscient, omnipotent being that will do the bidding of the person (or at least can be assumed to have its best interests at heart).

I really don’t comprehend your last sentence.  If you died right now, do you assume there would be no reaction?  Yes, we can look out several billion years and we vanish into nothingness.  We can look billions of years back and we still didn’t matter since we didn’t exist.  But for here and now, we do matter.  You can’t know what actions you’ll take and what the ultimate result will be as they reverberate through out time and space.  You can however make sure that you have even less meaning or purpose if you take a nihilistic stance and refuse to do nothing if you don’t get what you think you “deserve” for it.   
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #41 on: September 28, 2011, 04:54:22 PM »
TOT ,
I want to ask you this out of pure curiosity, the bible never talks about how heaven will be, and it also never says anything about what we will be or how we will be; it is assume by most church that we have a house built by our good deeds but nowhere in the bible does it say so. It’s so vague as to how life will be in heaven, not to mention that no one has ever “seen” heaven. The bible conflicts itself when talking about when you will go to heaven. Why would anyone with common sense think that this stuff is true? Even GoD himself say that there is other GoDs other than him, how do you know this is even the right GoD? I just thought I would ask, most of the time I get confused looks and they normal ask me why not believe what do you have to lose. 
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #42 on: September 28, 2011, 05:01:47 PM »
TOT ,
I want to ask you this out of pure curiosity, the bible never talks about how heaven will be, and it also never says anything about what we will be or how we will be; it is assume by most church that we have a house built by our good deeds but nowhere in the bible does it say so. It’s so vague as to how life will be in heaven, not to mention that no one has ever “seen” heaven. The bible conflicts itself when talking about when you will go to heaven. Why would anyone with common sense think that this stuff is true? Even GoD himself say that there is other GoDs other than him, how do you know this is even the right GoD? I just thought I would ask, most of the time I get confused looks and they normal ask me why not believe what do you have to lose.
Smurf I think ToT agrees with you on this point
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Offline The Wannabe

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2011, 05:48:26 PM »
TOT is projecting his indoctrination on those who are no longer indoctrinated, as if they need to account emotionally for believing in what they don't believe.

Not in this thread.

Yes, in this thread:



That's more then a little harsh, dude.  I don't believe ToT is trying to project his emotions on others, he's only asking the question that prior adherents to superstition must ask at this point:  "What now?"

For anyone that was formerly a Christian; when you lost believe that the faith you held was the truth; what was the next step? As Christians, I'm sure you were taught the following:

I was taught the following, and i'm going to be frank, it is somewhat morbidly depressing and worrisome for a while.  I can't tell you how many nights i suffered from anxiety attacks due to the thought that i had "lost something" or gone to a place from which there i no return.  And there is truly no return, but after some time you will never again want to.  These negative feelings are fleeting, and will soon be replaced by an insatiable hunger for information that was previously labeled as "blasphemous" or "taboo".  At this point, you will find yourself growing intellectually almost daily.  It will probably be one of the most rewarding experiences in your life, i know it was for me :)

With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless. I'm interested in knowing how former Christians have dealt with these issues and been able to find a point to it all after ditching a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.

Life is not meaningless without religion.  I'm sure you will soon find that the earth still rotates the sun regardless of whether or not you believe in a deity.  After this startlingly obvious realization, you may begin to think of yourself as very, very, very small when compared to a universe that is so incomprehensibly vast in size, scale, and complexity.  Life is crazy enough without seriously considering superstitious claims from ignorant and barbaric homo sapiens, claims that are completely devoid of merit.  To quote the Infamous Christopher Hitchens:

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“The only position that leaves me with no cognitive dissonance is atheism. It is not a creed. Death is certain, replacing both the siren-song of Paradise and the dread of Hell. Life on this earth, with all its mystery and beauty and pain, is then to be lived far more intensely: we stumble and get up, we are sad, confident, insecure, feel loneliness and joy and love. There is nothing more; but I want nothing more.”


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Offline jetson

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2011, 06:12:56 PM »
ToT,

I am glad you started this thread.  It is one of the more interesting threads for me as a long time member.  I am still not sure where you are, because you have not responded to posts like mine, where I asked about you joining the herd of heathens in atheist land.

The other arguments between you, Omen, velkyn, and a few members who are supporting your apparent consideration that maybe Christianity isn't what you thought it was, is also important, because it is another way of targeting your true motivations, and perhaps peeling back the onion on your beliefs to a more raw state.

Are you ready to start discussing where you are in your views these days?

"What now?" is a powerful question/statement coming from a Christian who has been on this forum debating and getting pounded on as you have.

Talk to us.  Open up a little more. 

Online Zankuu

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2011, 09:18:47 PM »
The rest of your post is .. really incoherent drivel.

Damn strong words. Where is the incoherent drivel?

Oh you missed it Zankuu? Do you really need it pointed out?

Ah hell Omen, I really didn't think we were going to draw this out. But if you insist I'll have a go until we finish...

Quote
As far as my history, it is one that clearly feel you are an ass and your actions via posting do very little to show that to be an incorrect assumption. If you would actually read and consider what I have said, it will become clear that a change of mind is being illustrated, but for whatever reason you and another don't want to see the obvious. So rather than continuing to go back and forth with you pointlessly let me say: "Whatevea man, you got it, and I ain't mad atcha."
With that, hopefully we're cool and as long as you don't start nothing, won't be nothing.

Can you make anything from this nonsense?

Yeah. It's full of emotion and hastily made, but I get the gist of it.

I see some pleading

Show me specifically where.

a blank dismissal

Show me specifically where.

a couple red herrings

Christ man, TWO of them? Show me specifically where.

and what I do not see is a coherent argument.

Yeah this I agree with. When it's broken down it looks like this:

p > q
-p
____
z

You're right, this isn't a valid argument. Almost a modus tollens but no cigar. But there isn't a red herring anywhere in there, much less two of them. I think you're just harboring a little of your own frustration against him and you're bringing over assumptions about his post posting behavior. But If you can that fish I'll buy you a beer at the convention in October!

The only thing I chose to respond to is his blatant lie: "in the thread with apparently no intention of addressing the topic up for discussion".

"Blatant lie"? I thought it was easily understood ToT, instead of trying to deceive anyone, was just venting his frustration about being attacking in a thread that had one clear motive: Gather information from ex-Christians on the pain of deconversion.

Velkyn clearly addressed his summarized conclusion with a question that specifically challenges his own implied faulty premises.

What faulty premises? Are you referring to this one statement:

"With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless."

Because I read that as:

"With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing to me and of course, ultimately meaningless.

Is that honest behavior?

I firmly believe he's behaved honestly in this thread, and I see no evidence within this thread of him doing anything other than going on the defense against two articulate and chafed heavy hitters.

Are we supposed to pretend like TOT doesn't know when he's had his dishonesty pointed out and challenged in the past, yet chose to ignore it?

I never suggested you do those things. My supposition is if you had entered this thread without working under the assumption he had trickery in mind, then perhaps you would have seen the actual intent behind it. But hell, I could be proven wrong.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Ivellios

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2011, 07:36:06 AM »
Honestly, in some other threads after getting his "proofs" bashed again and again, it did seem like he was beginning to see from the other perspective, "What if there was no god?" "What if it all is just SPAG and there really is nothing there?" He wasn't taking that stance, because no one wants to admit they've been  wrong thier entire life and it's incredibly humbling. Maybe it was trickery, may be it wasn't.

Then this thread pops up.

And I agree with Zankuu here :

Because I read that as:

"With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing to me and of course, ultimately meaningless.

Maybe TOT is approaching what he thought was the Abyss. Maybe he's just curious. When I read Velkyn's post, I was left thinking, "Did I misss something or is she reading too much into it?"

I decided like others to give him the benefit of doubt. Just in case, he was really there and to let him know it's not suicide time. There is still stuff to live for. You're now not auditioning for a "real life," but living your real life. I wanted to let him know, that unlike some of us, he's lucky. I didn't have any support and outside of these forums I still don't. I live in the Bible belt and if one evens mentions having doubts about God's existence[1] can get one ostracized from friends, family, and forget about promotions at work. I hate having to live a lie, but I also don't want to be stuck making minimum wage for the rest of my life, and staying at the bottom of the Totem Pole.

My .02 isk.
 1. let alone admit to being atheist.

Offline meo

Re: What Now?
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2011, 07:53:39 AM »
"Some rich people are taught that you are worthless if you are poor, and the world is meaningless without money, for the Ex-rich people who were taught this, how do you deal with losing something as satisfying as money and the the thought that being poor is worthless?"
If I make the above comment, does it mean I am projecting my indoctrination on the poor that are no longer indoctrinated?

As far as I can see, the only "baseless claim" ToT is making in this thread is that Christians are being taught to think a certain way. He did not claim those things to be the one true way or even good, otherwise he won't have phrased it as "Christians are taught..."

For someone who has been indoctrinated these thoughts for almost his whole life, "Now what" and asking how people deal with it when losing their faith seems to be a very fair question to me.

Hi ToT, I was never really a Christian, all I can say is I don't think it's meaningless unless there's an objective purpose to life, just like it's not only objective facts that have values, subjective opinions are just as precious.

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2011, 09:09:07 AM »
Well hey, for the record, good on ya, Truf, me ol' angel trumpet. It takes gigantic brass yarblockos to ask these sorts of questions, what with all the traps and threats built into the religion over a few thousand years. You got a giant super powered space Ogre screaming threats at you from the 5th dimension n' s**t, and probably have people close to you in your life who are now going to get all upset because they care about you and the sick ass belief system is telling them your going to be tortured for all eternity...

That's another one of those insidious traps inherrent to Abrahamic religions with their "Believe as we do or suffer" terrorist techniques. Over the millenia, those old timey religions have been so highly polished in regards to reenforcing thenselves and feasting on their own bullshit, I'm amazed anybody gets out considering how many redundant measures they put in place to make sure you and your donation money don't drift far from the flock.

You're trying to de-tangle yourself from like 5,000 years of people tying knots around your ankles dude. No easy task. You were indoctrinated for awhile, and in pretty damn deep, too... So you'll doubtless be dusting clumps of fallout from yer wig for a few weeks or months at any rate. Old habits die hard, and it really is like kicking a drug addiction. Those old habits and patterns and beliefs are familiar and comfortable, and you're probably going to feel drawn back to them, especially in times of stress.

I guess time will tell what side of the fence you ultimately end up on.

But assuming you don't have some giant magical experience where Jesus decends from the clouds carried on the shoulders of blonde-haired shirtless angels, and go screaming back to the arms of Yahweh the Mighty Foreskin Collector, you'll find you have an all new setting on your "bullshit detector", and you'll start to look critically at all kinds of things...

Bigfeet, Ghosts, Alien abductions, the Bermuda Triangle, alll these far-out and wacky ideas will start to fall like dominos, bam bam bam bam... Because you'll grow an attachment to critical thought and analyzation, and you'll be absolutely shocked at how many things in life just straight up implode when you look at them critically and start asking the right questions. It's a trip.  :P

As far as the loss of eternal life... Man, from what I heard, I'd be HAPPY if I were you. The Christian afterlife always sounded like drag to me. Everything's G-rated, everybody is all straight-edged and anal, you spend all day wearing white cotton robes and watching re-runs of the Andy Griffin show and praising Yahweh the Child Killer for hours on end... Ugh. Sounds more like hell than the Christian hell if you ask me!

Now the loss of Valhalla... THAT would be a downer. THAT is how you build a fucking afterlife man!!!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 09:12:59 AM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2011, 10:02:32 AM »
TOT ,
I want to ask you this out of pure curiosity, the bible never talks about how heaven will be, and it also never says anything about what we will be or how we will be; it is assume by most church that we have a house built by our good deeds but nowhere in the bible does it say so. It’s so vague as to how life will be in heaven, not to mention that no one has ever “seen” heaven. The bible conflicts itself when talking about when you will go to heaven. Why would anyone with common sense think that this stuff is true? Even GoD himself say that there is other GoDs other than him, how do you know this is even the right GoD? I just thought I would ask, most of the time I get confused looks and they normal ask me why not believe what do you have to lose.

Smurf, I'm probably not the best person to ask this question as for years now I have not bought into the idea that a Heavenly inheritance was promised to the masses of believers. As I began to really study and question the Bible, one thing that stuck out to me was that it did not seem to describe Heaven as a place that was promised to me. Best I can tell from the Bible writings is that the gift of God is eternal, excuse me, age lasting life, and that life may in fact have been a life on the Earth as opposed to in a Heavenly mansion.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2011, 10:43:50 AM »
ToT,

I am glad you started this thread.  It is one of the more interesting threads for me as a long time member.  I am still not sure where you are, because you have not responded to posts like mine, where I asked about you joining the herd of heathens in atheist land.

The other arguments between you, Omen, velkyn, and a few members who are supporting your apparent consideration that maybe Christianity isn't what you thought it was, is also important, because it is another way of targeting your true motivations, and perhaps peeling back the onion on your beliefs to a more raw state.

Are you ready to start discussing where you are in your views these days?

"What now?" is a powerful question/statement coming from a Christian who has been on this forum debating and getting pounded on as you have.

Talk to us.  Open up a little more.

Well Jetson, I can't say that I have joined the herd, but I can say that I have left an old herd and much of the thought that being a part of that herd generated. I'm not big on labels, but if you ask me to give you my idea of where my current beliefs most closely align, and I'd have to say I'm somewhat of an agnostic theist. Unlike agnostics, however, I do hold out hope that the truth CAN at some point be known, though we have yet to figure out a way to know.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2011, 10:48:19 AM »
The bible is terribly confused about what the pearly gates are like, because the 4 traditions (synoptics, John, Revelation, Paul) do not agree enough on anything. Instead of regarding these 4 traditions as random ideas that someone just made up one afternoon, Christians insist on poring over them, collecting single quotes from each contradictory tradition and trying to resolve them as if the writers knew something we didn't, and that each quote is precision accurate to 3 decimal places. Each quote HAS to be that accurate, because often entire doctrinal rationale resides in a single word, or punctuation error. The main thing is to avoid hell. Nobody really gives a crap about anything else.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2011, 10:59:57 AM »
I'd have to say I'm somewhat of an agnostic theist. Unlike agnostics, however, I do hold out hope that the truth CAN at some point be known, though we have yet to figure out a way to know.

Congratulations! Though, I'd have to say that there is no real intellectual difference between agnostic X, and atheism; that the terminology merely describes attitude. Atheists will most likely not look for God, and will most likely be antagonistic to anyone who says that there is a God. Whereas, agnostics believe the same thing, but are generally apathetic to the good fight.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2011, 02:22:04 PM »
Quote
synoptics, John, .... do not agree enough on anything.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are were copied from one another but what gets me is the Q source. The Q source is the Gospel of Thomas. The thing about that is there are two version, one when jesus was a child and one that almost says the same thing as the Synoptics  Gospel
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2011, 07:39:18 PM »
Well Jetson, I can't say that I have joined the herd, but I can say that I have left an old herd and much of the thought that being a part of that herd generated.

Why go herd jumping at all? You're not a sheep, despite what religion calls you. They even come right out and say it with the whole "Shepard" business.

Stay away from herds. Herds are bad. People get trampled a lot in herds. Be an independent. Be an autonomous thinker and do it for your own sake.

Unless, I dunno, you're not comfortable with that. I don't know you; maybe you've got some degree of being institutionalized, like lifers who can't function outside of prison. Seen plenty of religious types go that way; they stand at the threshhold to independent thought, and get spooked by the vastness of their lack of knowledge. Of our lack of knowledge as a species, I mean.

It's intimidating to look at the universe and pull the god spackle out of allllll the cracks in your understanding, and go "Shit. There is SO much I don't know and will probably never understand about this place....." and very easy to say "Unnnnngh okay fuck this, I'm going back to where all the answers are instantly available with GodSpackle(tm)"

But if you can fortify yer bollocks and just accept that there's a ton of things that you probably won't ever be able to get a grip on, I think you'll find that the universe makes a lot more sense in general. All those thousands of rationalizations you had to make for years as a theist, to explain why a good god does bad stuff, why bad stuff happens to good people, why this and that and the other thing in the bible didn't match up to realty... They all vanish in little puffs of simple logic.

I mean, really, to me at least? Dismissing claims about gods, or at least ones that interfere in human affairs, is the only way you can BEGIN to make sense of the universe and life on Earth. I can't imagine trying to learn anything substantial about universal mechanics if if I had to keep letting ancient fable books pop up and poison the well.

Anyway, I say take some time off magical thinking altogether. Take a walk in the park and look around and assume for the day that it really is all just nature doing it's thing.

You really don't need something cosmic or other-worldly mucking about behind the scenes in order to make life special, or to stand in awe of nature or life in general. You may come to realize that the whole shabang is pretty damn spectacular just being "mundane" and "material".  :)
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2011, 12:11:46 PM »
Quote
You really don't need something cosmic or other-worldly mucking about behind the scenes in order to make life special, or to stand in awe of nature or life in general. You may come to realize that the whole shabang is pretty damn spectacular just being "mundane" and "material".


I can't dispute your points at all, but for me, like the title of one of those Bond movies, the world is not enough. Believing in God for decades has served as a platform that led me to develop the desire to have a stake in my own destiny and with or without a deity working with me, I still hope that there will be a way for me to control my own fate. I know that at this point, nothing can be done about it, but we'll see how long the staus quo on this issue remains. 

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2011, 06:16:24 PM »
Then it's a beautiful thing, my man. For the first time in a long time, you ARE in control of where you go. If Yahweh was real, then you were never in control of your destiny. It was all planned out since 6,000 years before you were born. One of the great logical paradoxes in Christianity. The whole "Free-Will" thing doesn't work if some super-being already knows how the movie ends.

Ditch the all-knowing sky daddy, and you've suddenly got yourself some gen-u-wine Free Will(tm)! Well, kinda. There's theories in Quantum Physics that say, basically, we're all just riding out the inevitable results of the Big Bang, like an infinitely complex set of cosmic dominoes operating on a sub-atomic level...

Personally, I don't buy into that theory, 'cos there's so much random chaos popping off all over the place at any given second, and the human thought process is a freakin' vortex of weirdness and unpredictability... But hey, even if it's true that we're just passengers on a cosmically pre-determined ride, we certainly can't tell the difference, so we might as well just roll with the punches and continue thinking we're calling the shots, right?

Anyway, whatever the case, it's a damn site better than thinking a malicious space wizard knows all about every little misery you're going to experience in life and in fact set it up that way as part of some unhinged "plan", all while being unbelievably cruel by telling everybody that they're free to make their own decisions.

I digress. Here's the best part - whatever good you do? Whatever you accomplish from here on out? It's lil' ol' YOU that makes it happen.

No strings attached. No puppetry. 100% you-ness, all day long.

That simple fact makes everything you do, positive, negative, neutral, whatever... It makes everything you do many times more significant. It doesn't take a god much effort to shove his divine hand up a doctor's ass to sock-puppet him into developing a cure for cancer. Different story if a simple man does it alone, without a magical assist from on high.

You have the capacity to do tremendous good for the world and for the people you care about; it's entirely possible you've BEEN doing good things for decades. But now hopefully you can allow yourself to take a little more credit for them, and maybe stand back and say "Hey, I'm a pretty good person. In fact, I kind of kick ass! I put a kid through COLLEGE! How awesome is that?" and smile for yourself. And it's alright to do that! You're not being vain, and you're not some damaged, broken, original-sin sinny sinner bad guy trying to make amends for silly superstitious crimes your ancient ancestors commited.

You're just you being you, and lil' ol' you single-handedly made the world a better place. For a few people, at least. I'm sure your kids are appreciative of the whole, you know, "life" thing.  ;)

Of course, the flip-side is that you need to man up and take responsiblity for your actions in all things, not just the good stuff. If you go around fucking up other people's happiness or doing damage to the world or even if you simply go life-passive and accomplish nothing noteworthy due to inaction. No demons or devils to blame, and no supernatural authority to forgive you and smooth your hair and tell you everything is okay. If you wrong somebody and want forgiveness, you actually have to go to the people you've wronged to get it.

Still, unless you're a sociopath or something, chances are you're a relatively decent dude on a human level, and you probably have the capacity to do a lot more net positive than negative, probably without too much effort as well... So, you know. Let the good times roll.  :)
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: What Now?
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2011, 08:15:26 PM »
....With those thoughts in mind, it really makes existence depressing and of course, ultimately meaningless.

Right off the bat you're incorrect.  Insultingly incorrect.


Quote
I'm interested in knowing how former Christians have dealt with these issues and been able to find a point to it all after ditching a belief system that served to make life ultimately purposeful and held up the human ego in a way that really nothing else can.

a)  "Nothing else can?"  Suggest that to a Muslim.

b)  I, as a former christian, find fullfillment in pretty much the very same things that christians do:  Human relationships, hobbies, interests, excercise, travelling, things to look forward to, good food etc etc.  Granted, there is missing the massive sense of community and belongng that one gets from the church environment, but this is merely an intensified shot of what we social creatures want & need most, and notice that people of other (& opposing) religions benefit from that too.
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