Author Topic: Just a thought, any ideas  (Read 829 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline violatedsmurf80

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Just a thought, any ideas
« on: September 25, 2011, 12:19:36 PM »
My friend that I went out “Ghost Hunting” with were talking last night about the theory known as meta-universes or multiverses and concluded that most of the people that are fascinated by this thing people called “ghost” are actually glimpse into a parallel universe at a different time then ours.  Similar to how atoms appear then disappear. This is just a thought nothing more because the fact that it is unprovable or improbable, even to be able to conceive an idea that would be able to test this would be impossible but I figure if Einstein’s theory of gravity, the laws of physics as we understand them today suggest that even time travel to the past or theory of Special Relativity time travel to the future is possible in principle. Why couldn’t this be also?   
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 01:34:17 PM »
Its an interesting thought experiment. I think, time travel is likely impossible because it would likely violate obvious laws such as conservation of matter energy ...
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Zankuu

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2030
  • Darwins +121/-0
  • Gender: Male
    • I am a Forum Guide
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 02:08:52 PM »
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline violatedsmurf80

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 04:29:14 PM »
Its an interesting thought experiment. I think, time travel is likely impossible because it would likely violate obvious laws such as conservation of matter energy ...

I thought conservation of energy was like the first law of thermal dynamics
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4350
  • Darwins +206/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 04:31:13 PM »
I thought conservation of energy was like the first law of thermal dynamics

No, that's a completely different thing.  Check the Wikipedia articles, they're pretty good.  (BTW, it's thermodynamics, not thermal dynamics.)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline violatedsmurf80

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2011, 04:40:00 PM »
I thought conservation of energy was like the first law of thermal dynamics

No, that's a completely different thing.  Check the Wikipedia articles, they're pretty good.  (BTW, it's thermodynamics, not thermal dynamics.)

Interesting, Well I guess you learn something new every day. 
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Omega

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 700
  • Darwins +1/-5
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2011, 12:07:54 PM »
if Einstein’s theory of gravity, the laws of physics as we understand them today suggest that even time travel to the past or theory of Special Relativity time travel to the future is possible in principle. Why couldn’t this be also?

Time travel is impossible because time does not exist and travel to future is not possible for same reason future does not exist in present.
Observing past without interaction is possible and easy.

interaction with other universe would violate energy conservation law and that would create  gravity waves of infinite power.

for same reason god cannot interact with us either even if he existed.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1451
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 12:31:56 PM »
Is time even real? It may sound like a silly question, but it is quite possible that time is an illusion and that in reality it is nothing other than the mechanism by which we separate events. Scientists like Julian Barbour and others have chimed in on the idea that time is not what most believe it to be.

Offline violatedsmurf80

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 03:56:54 PM »
Is time even real? It may sound like a silly question, but it is quite possible that time is an illusion and that in reality it is nothing other than the mechanism by which we separate events. Scientists like Julian Barbour and others have chimed in on the idea that time is not what most believe it to be.
"time" is Einstein’s unfinished revolution. There are many questions about the nature of time. What is time? What causes time?  Why time slows in gravity? Why time slows in motion? Is time a dimension? Aristotle had speculated that time may be motion. He however added that motion could be slower or faster but not time. Aristotle did not have the privilege of knowing about Einstein’s relativity in which time also becomes amenable to change. Similarly when Einstein was working to develop theory of general relativity and proposed the revolutionary idea that mass curves space he did not know that the universe was expanding.

if Einstein’s theory of gravity, the laws of physics as we understand them today suggest that even time travel to the past or theory of Special Relativity time travel to the future is possible in principle. Why couldn’t this be also?

Time travel is impossible because time does not exist and travel to future is not possible for same reason future does not exist in present.
Observing past without interaction is possible and easy.

interaction with other universe would violate energy conservation law and that would create  gravity waves of infinite power.

for same reason god cannot interact with us either even if he existed.

it is impossible here is a link that is interesting http://www.newsy.com/videos/is-time-travel-possible/
http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-grandfather-paradox.html
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Omega

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 700
  • Darwins +1/-5
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 05:47:42 PM »
Quote
"What is time? What causes time?  Why time slows in gravity? Why time slows in motion? Is time a dimension?"

these quiestions can be eansvered quite easily. by using quantum mechanic.


 so here we can see that time cam be expressed as number of energy transfers between 2 points who have distance derivable from Planck constant.

gravity slows time because gravity reduces energy of any object. for example car battery have less energy on earth surface than it would have in orbit.
time is not a dimension it just describes current state of system in a way like frame number describes current state of the movie, but there is no difference at what speed you will play it.

Quote
it is impossible

What is impossible time travel or observing past?
« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 05:50:25 PM by Omega »

Offline violatedsmurf80

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 08:05:14 PM »
Quote
What is impossible time travel or observing past?

I'm not too sure about this whole time travel thing I just remember that quote from a class.  I am sure if I made an omelet I couldn't turn it back into an egg, but I am reasonably sure I can see were it is going to be within a few minutes of being in front of me.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 01:58:40 AM »
I thought conservation of energy was like the first law of thermal dynamics

No, that's a completely different thing.  Check the Wikipedia articles, they're pretty good.  (BTW, it's thermodynamics, not thermal dynamics.)


Well, I said conservation of matter and energy but yes, conservation of energy is one of the laws of thermodynamics.

In context, if you went back in time, the matter consisting of your old self would also exist in some form.

As such, your "going back" would imply no matter/energy being added to the system, you.

Its therefore, in my opinion, impossible to do in the way we'd want.

Granted, relativity has odd effects.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Agent K-Dog

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Darwins +0/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2011, 02:37:10 AM »
I've been on number of paranormal investigations. While I do believe that there is in fact residual-type hauntings. These could related to some sort of 'time-slips' but, the mainstream theory is that a particular area under the right circumstances (whatever that may be) are recorded magnetically in the surrounding environment. 

With that said, I must say I've recorded numerous EVP sessions and have indeed recorded disemodied voices that have reponding intelligently to the questions or comments I've spoken, which of course is evidence disqualifying a residual haunting. I even recording a full moving apparitiion a number of years ago.  Is this proof of an all-power God though?  Not necessarily.

Offline BaalServant

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
  • Darwins +8/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Praise Ba'al really hard!
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2011, 05:23:42 AM »
Why I don't believe in ghosts and such - sure, once in a while somebody records something that can be believed by the mind to be a voice, but if you get enough em sensitive recorders, and record enough random em sessions, eventually something's going to appear to be something.

Kinda like how we see faces in things like clouds and plates of food sometimes.

Another thing - if ghosts can go through walls, why do they have to obey the physical rules of the floor?

When people postulate things like a quantum fluctuation or a rip in space time or some other "random occurrence" caused something, like a book, or a person, or some other object to appear/disappear, I have to point out - reality doesn't differentiate between objects - If it's a selection of matter, there isn't going to be any differentiation or respect to what we normally consider regular physical boundaries of objects. 

And we'd be getting a lot more appearances of things like magma, and the near vacuum of space, rather than pieces of our narrowly ethnocentric slice of reality.

.   ###$$$$$$$$$$$$###
   ################
   ###  PRAISE BA'AL  ####
 #### FOR THE ALTAR ####
##### OF BA'AL!!!!!! #####
####################

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4629
  • Darwins +511/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2011, 08:34:27 AM »
Time exists, but it isn't what people commonly think it is.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +407/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2011, 08:43:01 AM »
I've been on number of paranormal investigations. While I do believe that there is in fact residual-type hauntings. These could related to some sort of 'time-slips' but, the mainstream theory is that a particular area under the right circumstances (whatever that may be) are recorded magnetically in the surrounding environment. 

"mainstream"????????   :police:

Might you perhaps mean "most widely agreed upon woo amongst those who believe in such things"?   ;D
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12020
  • Darwins +622/-23
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2011, 08:53:13 AM »
I thought conservation of energy was like the first law of thermal dynamics

No, that's a completely different thing.  Check the Wikipedia articles, they're pretty good.  (BTW, it's thermodynamics, not thermal dynamics.)

 What?

First law of thermodynamicsWiki
first sentence:
Quote
The first law of thermodynamics is an expression of the principle of conservation of energy.

I'm sorry, PD.  I cannot let such an egregious and easily avoidable error about science go without a smite.

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2011, 10:33:58 AM »
Its an interesting thought experiment. I think, time travel is likely impossible because it would likely violate obvious laws such as conservation of matter energy ...

There are no laws.  You are using this in the fallacy I call the Argumentum ad Legem = laying down the law.  There are observed functions in the universe.  Conservation of matter and energy is how the universe appears to work.  Scientists made a neat formulation of this.  In science a handy formulation of a theory is called a "law".

As the bumper sticker says, "186,326 miles/sec.  It's not only a good idea, it's the Law."

Now, time travel is teleportation.  Let's examine the effects of teleportation.  I'll teleport like a movie special effect to a spot in the parking lot outside and come back in.
...
Ow! OMG, that hurt.  I teleported to a place where there were oxygen and nitrogen molecules already in the volume I took.  They incorporated into the molecules of my body.  I think I killed a few cells including some nerve cells.  I feel sick.  Atoms themselves overlapped creating tiny explosions as they separated.  At least I projected to a point an inch above the pavement.  Incorporating shoe soles into the pavement wouldn't have locked them as some superdense matrix.  They would have gone off like a bomb.

Let me try again.  I can fix this.
...
Much better.  Other than the pain in the ears.  I'm a little deaf now -- dang -- blood.  I broke an eardrum.  This time I used a teleporter that has a complete mass exchange -- some consequence of thermodynamics to be figured out later.[1]  This machine did a complete exchange of matter.  I weigh 80 kg.  Air weighs 1.25 kg per cubic meter.  So it had to suck out a volume equal to a 4 meter cube.  Think of a 13'x13' bedroom with a ceiling 13' high.  The momentary vacuum was refilled by ambient pressure the way it rushes in after lightning passes.  I was at the center of a thunderclap.  And back in my apartment the windows were blown out.


Like the time traveller in the cartoon above, these things conveniently don't happen.  Note that Daniel Jackson had to speak Russian to Russians.  I came in late to the show and thought the premise was like the movie, and that Jack O'Neill and Capt. Carter had had several years to learn to speak the galactic language which was a dialect of ancient Egyptian.  Instead not only our galaxy speaks American/Canadian English but so do the Wraiths of the Pegasus Galaxy.


Terra Nova (I missed the premiere) at least makes sense that every trip back in time splits off a new time line.  So the people of Earth can recolonize Earth over and over starting with splitting off the Cretaceous Period 20 million years before the Deccan Steps and the Chicxulub Meteor wreck everything.

 1. "I don't know; I don't know tech stuff," said Sgt. TC Kyle Reese.

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2011, 10:46:18 AM »
I thought conservation of energy was like the first law of thermal dynamics
No, that's a completely different thing.  Check the Wikipedia articles, they're pretty good.  (BTW, it's thermodynamics, not thermal dynamics.)
What?
I'm sorry, PD.  I cannot let such an egregious and easily avoidable error about science go without a smite.
Did it not occur to you that he was speaking of the error "thermal dynamics" for "thermodynamics"?

Thermal Dynamics Corporation makes laser and plasma cutting equipment.


Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2011, 12:13:28 PM »
My friend that I went out “Ghost Hunting” with were talking last night about the theory known as meta-universes or multiverses and concluded that most of the people that are fascinated by this thing people called “ghost” are actually glimpse into a parallel universe at a different time then ours.  Similar to how atoms appear then disappear. This is just a thought nothing more because the fact that it is unprovable or improbable, even to be able to conceive an idea that would be able to test this would be impossible but I figure if Einstein’s theory of gravity, the laws of physics as we understand them today suggest that even time travel to the past or theory of Special Relativity time travel to the future is possible in principle. Why couldn’t this be also?

Your idea, while interesting, is not well founded at the very least due to definition.
The universe is, roughly, the collection of everything that is possible to see and or interact with in any conceivable way.

Therefore, if you have some sort of cohesion between two universes (e.g. Earth and Earth' occupy the same uiniverse-invariant meta-position) there must be some mechanism for correlating them together (meta-glue?).  At that point you have 1 universe because they are linked via interaction.

The concept of separation via multiverse is by definition always baseless.  If another universe exists, it is just absolutely disconnected from this one in every way and as such pointless to ever consider.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4629
  • Darwins +511/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2011, 01:25:19 PM »
I think the point of this was that perhaps other universes aren't necessarily absolutely disconnected in every way.  Most ways, for sure, but maybe they could get entangled temporarily and thus cause the phenomena that most people think of as 'supernatural'.

Offline violatedsmurf80

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2011, 03:50:42 PM »
I think the point of this was that perhaps other universes aren't necessarily absolutely disconnected in every way.  Most ways, for sure, but maybe they could get entangled temporarily and thus cause the phenomena that most people think of as 'supernatural'.

Yep that is what this post was about, but i found out that that the laws that govern the multiverses dont allow them to cross over or touch but a black hole in theory is a link to anther universe
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline fungusdrool

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +2/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2011, 09:40:16 PM »
Yep that is what this post was about, but i found out that that the laws that govern the multiverses dont allow them to cross over or touch but a black hole in theory is a link to anther universe

I've never understood why people insist on talking about multiple universes when other terms and concepts are more appropriate (not singling you out, tons of people do this for some reason).  For instance, your ghost hypothesis could modified to be based on sets of dimensions.  Like we exist in universal dimensions 1-10, and the ghosts live in dimensions 11-20.  If 11-20 were not perfectly orthogonal to 1-10 (normal dimension are mutually orthogonal, that is the dot product betwixt any two is 0), then you could get some bleeding such as the wavy images, et al.  This does not require the abandonment of a simply defined and generally recognized term (i.e. the previous universe definition I gave).

Alternatively, those extra dimension could just be compactified as in the Caliby-Yau spaces associated with string theory (and still maintain orthogonality).

Or more interestingly lets say the number of dimensions is fractal (plenty of evidence that the universe is a big fractal).  Then you could get all sorts of partial space permutations and other nifty visual edge effects from the denizens therein.  You'd almost have to think of those poor variably smeared entities as ghosts.


Offline rickymooston

Re: Just a thought, any ideas
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2011, 12:04:06 PM »
I've never understood why people insist on talking about multiple universes when other terms and concepts are more appropriate (not singling you out, tons of people do this for some reason).  For instance, your ghost hypothesis could modified to be based on sets of dimensions.

The concept of a dimension and of a universe, are likely equivalent here.

The thing is, are either of these hypothesises testable? Can I observe another dimension or another universe?
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.