Okay, YY, I have time now to go over your list. I find it hilarious that you have decided to broaden the discussion to all sorts of things that have nothing to do with showing love, and have removed the context of other verses that show that this “god love” is only for believers.
To bring it back to what was said initially: I said:
I dont’ care what theists disagree about since reality shows them to be wrong. As for your claim that harm is only a “side effect”, why not say that any beneficial effect is a “side effect” and that harm is the intent of these religions. We see genocide commanded by various gods because the gods *want* it. The Christian god wants all other gods ignored, and anyone who doesn’t believe in it killed. Same with the Jewish god and the Muslim god. The Aztec gods wanted blood sacrifice. Laws for behavior apply to their “chosen people” but everyone else is a candidate for the slaughterhouse.
If you can prove that holy books have more instances of hatred than love, then I'd agree with your point. If you can't show that, then you are merely projecting your atheist bias.
Now you claim that
My point was that there are a ton of great teachings in the Bible and other holy books. Personally, I discard the bad stuff and keep the good. Why not? It's all fiction anyway right? I'm just fast forwarding past the part of the movie I don't like.
BS, see above on what you originally claimed. I never said that the various holy books didn’t have good things in them(nice goalposts moving there). I said that there were more thing about hate than love. You have yet to prove me wrong, and with your list full of things not about love at all, “love” limited to believers, etc, it’s more than obvious. Because YY, I actually looked at what you listed. You can repeat yourself until you are blue in the face but it doesn’t make it true, especially when you have to resort to such pathetic chicanery. It *is* very amusing that now you say you simply ignore what you don’t like since it’s “fiction”. Gee, since it’s “all fiction”, none of it must be true, right? And we’re back to YY and his very own personal religion.
Matthew 5:43-48 Good one
Matthew 5:9 ah, where’s the love here?
Romans 13:8, Matthew 22:37-40 Talking about Christians loving each other, no one else. Neighbor is never expanded to everyone, only those in a certain community. If God wanted everyone to love their neighbor, defined as those who live near them, why the genocides when those neighbors worshiped other gods and had land that the Israelites wanted? Why the disparaging of the Samaritan woman? Why say that one should not associate with non-Christians? Also is a very good example of how JC didn’t say that Christians should ignore his father’s commandments back in the OT. In fact we have again that Christians should be following them, which does get into that problem with how the OT is full of killing non-believers. I’ll file that for later use.
Galatians 5:13, Ephesians 4:2, 1 Peter 1:22, Ephesians 4:2-3, 1 John 3:18 again talking to only Christians
1 John 4:7 Again, more Christian on Christian love, and a lovely false claim that only those who love are of God. Easy to show as false, and indeed what does a being that loves need to lie for?
Matthew 6:24-25 Nice one with how people can love without this god at all, and showing the one above to be wrong. Doesn’t show that God loves anyone or anything. Did you just cut and paste without actually reading these things?
John 15:9-17 This would also be a good one, but for the problem that it also indicates that love is only for a chosen few, and that obedience is required before love is given. It also shows that there is no free will, another one that can be filed for later. This qualification of “love” I addressed back in my other post: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20171.msg447480.html#msg447480
1 Corinthians 13:4-8 The “love” definition in the bible. Always good to see it, and point out that this god does nothing of the kind. So, if this is how love should be defined, YY, and I think it’s a pretty good definition, does your bible have this kind of love in it?
Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirs up conflict, but love covers over all wrongs.
Another good one, but it’s pretty ironic considering how God stirs up conflicts left and right. It seems that God encourages hatred.
Proverbs 17:17 Another good one, but doesn’t’ show that god is necessary at all. That’s the problem with a lot of Proverbs, Ecclesiates, etc. Some more in that chapter:
18 One who has no sense shakes hands in pledge, and puts up security for a neighbor. 19 Whoever loves a quarrel loves sin; whoever builds a high gate invites destruction. 20 One whose heart is corrupt does not prosper; one whose tongue is perverse falls into trouble.21 To have a fool for a child brings grief; there is no joy for the parent of a godless fool.
See all of the love there
John 14:27, John 20:19, Again, where’s the love here? I see “peace” but no love.
Romans 14:19, 2 Corinthians 13:11 Mark 9:50 More for Christains only and doesn’t mention “love”, except in calling on the “god of love and peace” which is nice but is not shown to be the case.
Luke 6:27, Matthew 7:12 Good one, classic golden rule, which has been around far longer then Christianity.
Romans 12:17 No mention of “love” and further on in the chapter says that you are just waiting for God to get his revenge, so you shouldn’t step on his toes. Again, the love here, even just shown and not written out as “love”?
1 Corinthians 7:15 Again the love here? and just above it where it says that anyone who doesn’t believe in god is “unclean”?
James 3:18, Numbers 6:25-26, Isaiah 9:6 Romans 8:6 Colossians 3:15 YY, do you think love equals peace? You do know that they are separate words and totally separate meanings, right? Simply moving the goalposts again.
Proverbs 22:24-25 “Make no friendship with a man given to anger, nor go with a wrathful man, lest you learn his ways and entangle yourself in a snare.” but I guess gods who are wrathful and given to anger get a pass?
1 Corinthians 15:33 No mention of love at all.
Romans 12:10 More Christian limited love. Also, this is also in the chapter “Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. Love one another with brotherly affection. Out do one another in showing honor.” evil and good are defined how in the bible? By God, yes? We see hate being advocated here.
Ephesians 4:29-32, Colossians 3:12-14 more Christian limited love.
Proverbs 17:17 A repeat of the same one used above.
Proverbs 24:20, Proverbs 24:14 Nothing to do with love.
Jeremiah 29:11 Limited to the “exiles”, no mention of love, and again, a nice one to show no free will. Also, in the chapter, God says he’s going to destroy some city for being what seems to be part of his plan. They did what he supposedly wanted and now he’s going to blast them. We also have God damning someone’s descendents for what the progenitor did. Where’s the love here, YY?
1 Corinthians 15:19 “If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.” Really, this is what you put to show incidences of love in the bible? Did you think I wouldn’t read your list? It is rather funny, since yep, they should be pitied since nothing supports their claims.
2 Corinthians 4:16-18, Romans 12:12, Romans 15:13, Matthew 7:7,8, Matthew 5:16Again, no love. Just repetitions of baseless claims.
And now for the Qu’ran.
2:190, 2:205, 2:276, 3:57, 3:140, 4:107, 4:148, 5:67, 5:90, 6:141, 7:31, 8:58, 28:76, 16:23, 28:77, 31:18, 57:23 YY, do you realize that “loveth not” doesn’t mean that Allah loves these things but the exact opposite? These are quite repetitive too but if you posted them you can have them.
2:195, 3:76, 3:134, 5:14, 5:45Good ones.
3:103, 4:36, 49:9 Now we have Muslim on Muslim love.
5:96, 7:55, 19:96 Love dependent on belief
7:189, 30:21 Repetition of the A&E creation myth and about human love between them.
9:4 This is quite a surah. I’d suggest reading all of it to see all of the “love” there: http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/9/
Let’s look at the verse right after this one to see how context changes things:
9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).
9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Be nice as long as a contract is in place but when it’s not then kill them.
Same with sura 14. Lovely examples of no free will, and how 14:37 has nothing to do with love.
21:90 The context is Zacharia asking Allah for a child. He gets his prayers answered and thus loves his god. I suppose this would be true if prayers were ever answered. 38:32 And he said, "Truly do I love the love of Good, with a view to the glory of my Lord,"
Or: 38:32 And he said: Lo! I have preferred the good things (of the world) to the remembrance of my Lord; till they were taken out of sight behind the curtain. http://quran.com/38/32-32
always pleasant to see that the Muslims have the same problems that other theists have.
60:7 and verses after those two?
60:8 Allah forbiddeth you not those who warred not against you on account of religion and drove you not out from your homes, that ye should show them kindness and deal justly with them. Lo! Allah loveth the just dealers.
60:9 Allah forbiddeth you only those who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out, that ye make friends of them. Whosoever maketh friends of them - (All) such are wrong- doers.
76:9 Saying, "We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.
And this shows love how? We only feed you for our god’s sake is saying what? Not out of love but out of what? Obediance? Fear?
now, I responded initially with this to demonstrate all of the hate in the bible: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20171.msg447480.html#msg447480
and I also posted a link to things in the Qu’ran, http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/short.html
. I’ve had no response from you, YY, about these except for you trying to ignore them and evidently being unable to find them in your bible
Genesis has god playing favorites over an altar full of meat and one of vegetables and inciting murder over it (he didn’t know what he was doing? helluva thing to claim for an omniscient being, eh?) We have every genocidal war that god commanded against those who did not worship him. The entire OT is full of them, and how many books and verses is that, YY? We have the flood that, other than simply being nonsense, shows a murderous god that hates and kills everyone and everything except a few (who then promptly get drunk and start cursing people for other’s sins). Exodus is all about God playing with the Egyptians to the point of murder and war, and then we get laws on who believers are supposed to hate and kill. We have Job where God allows people to be killed for a bet. We have the prophet books where God constantly threatens destruction and causes destruction. In the days right after the whole Exodus thing, we have God throwing a fit and killing men women and children for daring not to blindly accept Moses as being better than them. It goes on and on, to the point of committing genocide on tribes that have already supposedly been annihilated
. Anyone who has read the bible knows this. We have the gospels where JC says that people are intentionally damned for no good reason by this god, that they intentionally kept from accepting God. IS this love, YY? We have Paul and his screeds against homosexuals, and women who don’t act a certain way. Then we have the entire book of Revelation which has murder, murder and more murder, capping it off with this supposedly loving god, intentionally allowing the “beast” back onto the earth to corrupt more people. Is this loving, YY? Actually, if you could define love for me, YY, that would probably end this discussion since I ‘d see just what you think is acceptable for a loving being.
Now, I could list ever single verse and chapter that shows this hatred that this god demands and causes and demand that YY address each one like I have his. I’ve already listed some and he hasn’t done anything of the sort. He has moved the goalposts to expand his list beyond love and hate into good and evil etc and this sort of rather silly deceit isn’t worth bothering with.