Author Topic: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.  (Read 12323 times)

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Offline Alzael

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #203 on: October 13, 2011, 06:04:10 PM »
If the beliefs can't be differentiated from the delusions of a madman, why should they not be treated as such? You still haven't answered this.

Here are beliefs that are similar to mine from another "delusional" madman.

Quote
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us, “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.

-Albert Einstein


So yes, I am delusional. But I'm in good company.

First, Appeal to Authority.

Second, not relevant and does not answer the issue in anyway.

Third, he outright calls this belief a delusion. What you quoted was his saying that such a thing is bad and we should attempt to stop it. Which is the exact opposite of what you have been arguing. So no, you're not in the same company. You aren't even in the same bowling league.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #204 on: October 13, 2011, 06:05:51 PM »
If the beliefs can't be differentiated from the delusions of a madman, why should they not be treated as such? You still haven't answered this.

Here are beliefs that are similar to mine from another "delusional" madman.

Quote
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us, “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.

-Albert Einstein


So yes, I am delusional. But I'm in good company.

Everything in that quote is a near perfect *inversion* of your beliefs!  This quote is speaking of recognizing and realizing that you, human, are a part of everything else - that *all* things have some interaction with other things.  Belief in the truth value of things that you make up inside of your head - belief without any evidence - is *not* trying to break out of the delusion.  It is reinforcing it.

So...basically what Alzael said.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Alzael

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #205 on: October 13, 2011, 06:13:53 PM »
If the beliefs can't be differentiated from the delusions of a madman, why should they not be treated as such? You still haven't answered this.

Here are beliefs that are similar to mine from another "delusional" madman.

Quote
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us, “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.

-Albert Einstein


So yes, I am delusional. But I'm in good company.

Everything in that quote is a near perfect *inversion* of your beliefs!  This quote is speaking of recognizing and realizing that you, human, are a part of everything else - that *all* things have some interaction with other things.  Belief in the truth value of things that you make up inside of your head - belief without any evidence - is *not* trying to break out of the delusion.  It is reinforcing it.

So...basically what Alzael said.

Just say "You're an idiot." It's much easier, very accurate, and simple enough for even him to understand.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #206 on: October 13, 2011, 06:21:17 PM »
If my theist were actually an atheist, he could begin constructing logical arguments for why your theist needs to die - they are representative of western evils, their suffering will lead to the greater good of my people, etc.  But they have some basis IN REALITY to make that distinction.

And this example is somehow more logical = preferable?

It's as if to you are saying that being killed by an atheist who has a logical explanation for his actions is better than being killed by a theist because either his god or one of his god's representatives told him. People murder each other all the time, I am not talking about self defense here. What difference does it make what their reasons are? I hope that is not what you intended to imply. Can you clarify your position for me?

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #207 on: October 13, 2011, 06:44:18 PM »
If my theist were actually an atheist, he could begin constructing logical arguments for why your theist needs to die - they are representative of western evils, their suffering will lead to the greater good of my people, etc.  But they have some basis IN REALITY to make that distinction.

And this example is somehow more logical = preferable?

It's as if to you are saying that being killed by an atheist who has a logical explanation for his actions is better than being killed by a theist because either his god or one of his god's representatives told him. People murder each other all the time, I am not talking about self defense here. What difference does it make what their reasons are? I hope that is not what you intended to imply. Can you clarify your position for me?

Huh - yeah I should have clarified a bit.  Re-reading that sounds bad.  I had no intention of associating 'logical' as 'preferable' or 'more moral (less immoral)'.  What I'm saying here is that, with a basis in reality, we can therefore make moral judgment calls - against others but more importantly against ourselves.  Unfortunately, you can still end up with situations of bad/incorrect data (all westerners are evil and their evilness deserves to die), but we can try to ensure we have the best understanding possible to be able to make a moral decision (maybe those westerners aren't so bad after all...or maybe the realization that the evil of killing those westerners would be even worse...etc.).

Evidence provides the reality check for evaluating the morality of a situation.  Making positive assertions of morality (god said this was good, god said that was bad, etc.) in the absence of evidence is insane.  It isn't that having reasons reduces the guilt of the moral transgression at all, it just makes it logical.  One can reach a logical conclusion and still commit atrocity.

Hope that makes some sense.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline jtp56

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #208 on: October 13, 2011, 07:08:56 PM »
Please YY, provide proof of the existence of a god (Allah, Jesus, flying spaghetti monster, etc.)  We all wish to be enlightened!

Please MMcNeely....provide proof of the beginning of the universe.  Or the beginning of life.  God can't be proven using the scientific method any more than the BBT and evolution (or Panspermia), or whatever the current scientific "proof" that you or anyone else "believe".

If there is such proof let me ask all of you this....Are there absolutes?
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For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #209 on: October 13, 2011, 07:24:49 PM »
If my theist were actually an atheist, he could begin constructing logical arguments for why your theist needs to die - they are representative of western evils, their suffering will lead to the greater good of my people, etc.  But they have some basis IN REALITY to make that distinction.

And this example is somehow more logical = preferable?

It's as if to you are saying that being killed by an atheist who has a logical explanation for his actions is better than being killed by a theist because either his god or one of his god's representatives told him. People murder each other all the time, I am not talking about self defense here. What difference does it make what their reasons are? I hope that is not what you intended to imply. Can you clarify your position for me?

Huh - yeah I should have clarified a bit.  Re-reading that sounds bad.  I had no intention of associating 'logical' as 'preferable' or 'more moral (less immoral)'.  What I'm saying here is that, with a basis in reality, we can therefore make moral judgment calls - against others but more importantly against ourselves.  Unfortunately, you can still end up with situations of bad/incorrect data (all westerners are evil and their evilness deserves to die), but we can try to ensure we have the best understanding possible to be able to make a moral decision (maybe those westerners aren't so bad after all...or maybe the realization that the evil of killing those westerners would be even worse...etc.).

Evidence provides the reality check for evaluating the morality of a situation.  Making positive assertions of morality (god said this was good, god said that was bad, etc.) in the absence of evidence is insane.  It isn't that having reasons reduces the guilt of the moral transgression at all, it just makes it logical.  One can reach a logical conclusion and still commit atrocity.

Hope that makes some sense.

Hey man, if it makes you feel any better, I got exactly what you were trying to say the first time around. Thought it was a good post, too. Just dissapointed that Double Y's only "response" came in the form of a useless tangent that didn't actually address any of the truly interesting points you were trying to raise.  :-\
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Offline YY

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #210 on: October 13, 2011, 07:27:16 PM »
Third, he outright calls this belief a delusion. What you quoted was his saying that such a thing is bad and we should attempt to stop it. Which is the exact opposite of what you have been arguing. So no, you're not in the same company. You aren't even in the same bowling league.

You are SOOOO wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I'm only answering this before your other really long reply due to time restraints.

Let's do another breakdown.

First, I've been saying all along that I believe God is everything and we are subsets of God/source energy/first cause. So it seems Mr. Einstein agrees with me.

Quote
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us, “Universe,”

Einstein is making the unsupported, unproven claim that Human Beings are a part of the whole, implying connections or unity with the whole. We call this whole the "Universe".

Quote
a part limited in time and space.

Our ETERNAL selves can only fathom ourselves in this Universe when we experience life and seperate our ETERNAL selves by limiting this consciousness with time and space, thus becoming physical form.

Quote
He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This human being experiences himself, thus only realizes himslef, when he has the delusion of his physical consciousness. This delusion is necessary to fool his eternal, connected self from the knowing that he is, always has been, and always will be, a part of the whole.


Quote
This delusion is a kind of prison for us,

Life is a prison (from our eternal selves into the physical form)

Quote
restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.

We have no desires or needs as the eternal, unified, one. It is our physical form that limits us to personal desires and the affection for those we come to know in this lifetime.


Quote
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

We should strive to remind ourselves of how connected we once were before birth, that we are all one, and to break free of the prison of limitation and personal desires to have compassion for others (since they're a part of us) and embrace EVERYTHING in its beauty (despite outward appearances).



Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.

-Albert Einstein






Offline Alzael

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #211 on: October 13, 2011, 07:29:30 PM »
Third, he outright calls this belief a delusion. What you quoted was his saying that such a thing is bad and we should attempt to stop it. Which is the exact opposite of what you have been arguing. So no, you're not in the same company. You aren't even in the same bowling league.

You are SOOOO wrong, I don't even know where to begin. I'm only answering this before your other really long reply due to time restraints.

Let's do another breakdown.

First, I've been saying all along that I believe God is everything and we are subsets of God/source energy/first cause. So it seems Mr. Einstein agrees with me.

Quote
A human being is a part of the whole, called by us, “Universe,”

Einstein is making the unsupported, unproven claim that Human Beings are a part of the whole, implying connections or unity with the whole. We call this whole the "Universe".

Quote
a part limited in time and space.

Our ETERNAL selves can only fathom ourselves in this Universe when we experience life and seperate our ETERNAL selves by limiting this consciousness with time and space, thus becoming physical form.

Quote
He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest — a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This human being experiences himself, thus only realizes himslef, when he has the delusion of his physical consciousness. This delusion is necessary to fool his eternal, connected self from the knowing that he is, always has been, and always will be, a part of the whole.


Quote
This delusion is a kind of prison for us,

Life is a prison (from our eternal selves into the physical form)

Quote
restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.

We have no desires or needs as the eternal, unified, one. It is our physical form that limits us to personal desires and the affection for those we come to know in this lifetime.


Quote
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

We should strive to remind ourselves of how connected we once were before birth, that we are all one, and to break free of the prison of limitation and personal desires to have compassion for others (since they're a part of us) and embrace EVERYTHING in its beauty (despite outward appearances).



Nobody is able to achieve this completely, but the striving for such achievement is in itself a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.

-Albert Einstein

Life is so simple when you just make it all up as you go along, huh?

As a sidenote, if your response to the post is going to be as stupid as every other post that you make. Can you at least make some effort towards making it stupid in an interesting way. Just for the sake of variety.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 07:32:03 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline YY

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #212 on: October 13, 2011, 08:07:08 PM »
Life is so simple when you just make it all up as you go along, huh?

Yah, me and uncle Al making it all up as we go along.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #213 on: October 13, 2011, 08:25:52 PM »
First, I've been saying all along that I believe God is everything and we are subsets of God/source energy/first cause. So it seems Mr. Einstein agrees with me.

I have to admit I find your interpretation of his quote baffling.  We can argue over what we think he meant, but frankly, all we'd primarily be doing is squibbling about the interpretation of a quote from a person who can never validate it.

But the above line is basically stating that you believe that reality exists, and that we are a subset of reality.  In which case, yes, I suspect that Dr. Einstein would agree with you.  I also agree with you.

Then you give it a name tag.  God.  Ok...not the name I would have chosen, but sure, we can go with that if you like (personally, I would have gone with 'The Universe').  Are we really just having an argument about semantics here?  Or is there something beyond ascribing another word for 'all reality'?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline jetson

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #214 on: October 13, 2011, 08:39:45 PM »
Please YY, provide proof of the existence of a god (Allah, Jesus, flying spaghetti monster, etc.)  We all wish to be enlightened!

Please MMcNeely....provide proof of the beginning of the universe.  Or the beginning of life.  God can't be proven using the scientific method any more than the BBT and evolution (or Panspermia), or whatever the current scientific "proof" that you or anyone else "believe".

If there is such proof let me ask all of you this....Are there absolutes?

WTF are you talking about?  This reply clearly shows your ignorance of science, and what it claims to know, or not know.  This is very typical of a creationist point of view, or of those who try to claim that evolution "is just a theory".  I won't hold my breath, but I certainly hope you don't continue down this particualr line of thoughtless babble.

Offline jtp56

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #215 on: October 13, 2011, 08:44:56 PM »
Ohhhhh.  So evolution is fact?   Proof?  What is evolution from a scientific prospective since you are so knowledgeable of how life began?
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Offline jtp56

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #216 on: October 13, 2011, 08:47:29 PM »
Please YY, provide proof of the existence of a god (Allah, Jesus, flying spaghetti monster, etc.)  We all wish to be enlightened!

Please MMcNeely....provide proof of the beginning of the universe.  Or the beginning of life.  God can't be proven using the scientific method any more than the BBT and evolution (or Panspermia), or whatever the current scientific "proof" that you or anyone else "believe".

If there is such proof let me ask all of you this....Are there absolutes?

WTF are you talking about?  This reply clearly shows your ignorance of science, and what it claims to know, or not know.  This is very typical of a creationist point of view, or of those who try to claim that evolution "is just a theory".  I won't hold my breath, but I certainly hope you don't continue down this particualr line of thoughtless babble.


Your reply clearly shows your ignorance of science, and what it claims to know, or not know.  This is very typical of an evolutionist point of view, or of those who try to claim that creation "is just a theory".  I won't hold my breath, but I certainly hope you don't continue down this particualr line of thoughtless babble.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jetson

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #217 on: October 13, 2011, 08:48:25 PM »
Evolution is not about how life began.  Seriously, you are out of your league on this topic.  You really should go to a website, and get up to speed.  My suggestion is the Berkeley Evolution site.  Yu should definitely google it, and spend some time following the flow of the site, as it explains everything very clearly, and in basic terms.


Offline Nick

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #218 on: October 13, 2011, 08:49:27 PM »
Please YY, provide proof of the existence of a god (Allah, Jesus, flying spaghetti monster, etc.)  We all wish to be enlightened!

Please MMcNeely....provide proof of the beginning of the universe.  Or the beginning of life.  God can't be proven using the scientific method any more than the BBT and evolution (or Panspermia), or whatever the current scientific "proof" that you or anyone else "believe".

If there is such proof let me ask all of you this....Are there absolutes?

WTF are you talking about?  This reply clearly shows your ignorance of science, and what it claims to know, or not know.  This is very typical of a creationist point of view, or of those who try to claim that evolution "is just a theory".  I won't hold my breath, but I certainly hope you don't continue down this particualr line of thoughtless babble.


Your reply clearly shows your ignorance of science, and what it claims to know, or not know.  This is very typical of an evolutionist point of view, or of those who try to claim that creation "is just a theory".  I won't hold my breath, but I certainly hope you don't continue down this particualr line of thoughtless babble.
I think there is a theory that holding your breath can be bad for you.
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Offline b2

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #219 on: October 13, 2011, 09:19:14 PM »
Prove the existence of God....Where do you want to begin lads? In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth. Great place to begin. So Scientifically speaking, you all think we just came from nothing? not possible unless there was a force of some sort creating or causing something to happen and providing the matter. You can call it the big bang, or whatever you'd like, but whatever it was, it didn't "just happen". That's not logical or Scientific. if you take your watch apart, and place all the pieces in a shoebox, it will remain apart forever unless some external force (your hands) puts the pieces back together. And to put that intricate of a mechanism back correctly, it would have to be an orderly, organized force. Not a random force. 

Some force caused the universe to come into existence. It has not been in existence forever (again, not supported by science). if you take our expanding universe and run it backwards, it had to begin somewhere. From what I've read, that point is referred to as a singularity. And I contend that "somewhere" was the creation referred to in Genesis. The force was God. Science and God are not mutually exclusive. They support one another as God created science, or, better stated, science is what God used to create and maintain our universe.

"For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse". Romans 1,V20.

Offline jetson

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #220 on: October 13, 2011, 09:21:11 PM »

Your reply clearly shows your ignorance of science, and what it claims to know, or not know.  This is very typical of an evolutionist point of view, or of those who try to claim that creation "is just a theory".  I won't hold my breath, but I certainly hope you don't continue down this particualr line of thoughtless babble.

Cute.  But I have made no assertions that need any specific support, other than the fact that you appear to be ignorant of the theories of evolution, and the big bang.  If you can clearly demonstrate that you definitely understand each theory, then I will apologize right here in this thread.  Using your own words, can you clearly articulate a basic understanding of each theory?

Offline jetson

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #221 on: October 13, 2011, 09:26:41 PM »
Prove the existence of God....Where do you want to begin lads? In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth. Great place to begin. So Scientifically speaking, you all think we just came from nothing? not possible unless there was a force of some sort creating or causing something to happen and providing the matter. You can call it the big bang, or whatever you'd like, but whatever it was, it didn't "just happen". That's not logical or Scientific. if you take your watch apart, and place all the pieces in a shoebox, it will remain apart forever unless some external force (your hands) puts the pieces back together. And to put that intricate of a mechanism back correctly, it would have to be an orderly, organized force. Not a random force. 

Some force caused the universe to come into existence. It has not been in existence forever (again, not supported by science). if you take our expanding universe and run it backwards, it had to begin somewhere. From what I've read, that point is referred to as a singularity. And I contend that "somewhere" was the creation referred to in Genesis. The force was God. Science and God are not mutually exclusive. They support one another as God created science, or, better stated, science is what God used to create and maintain our universe.

"For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse". Romans 1,V20.

Well, well...welcome to the forum!

Now, let's break this down a bit, shall we?

Who has stated that anything specifically came from nothing?

Who here has stated that everything "just happened" as an absolute fact?

Who has stated that there is a completely random force that is behind everything?

Where is your evidence that "some force" cause the universe to come into existence?

And as far as your contention regarding Genesis, I believe you will have to step up to the plate and do something a bit more substantial that quoting the words of people who didn't even realize they were standing on a fucking planet.  Care to take that on now?

The force was God?  Really?  And you're stating this with what evidence?  The Bible?

Get it together if you want to get into serious discussion, because blabbing on about your personal beliefs, and criticizing ideas and thoughts NEVER stated by anyone, is not going to help your case. 


Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #222 on: October 13, 2011, 10:05:10 PM »
Yay! More believers! Statistically, at least one should be able to articulate their thoughts and respond to the actual things people say rather than what they WANT the person to have said. Hopefully you guys can save the topic from eating it's own face off.  ;D

It's too damn late and I'm frankly too burnt out to break out my serious-ness-osity-debate-o-stick this evening, I'm just goofing off tonight, so it'll will have to wait 'till at least tomorrow... But I'd be interested to see if we can salvage something compelling out of this thread at any rate. And it would be kind of nice to see what flavor of people we have here before I throw myself face first into a three-way with complete strangers!

That's how you get pink eye, you know.  :-\

Oh, a few quick pieces of advice if I may... Hope I don't come off pretentious...

First thing off the top of my head, it would help everybody out a lot if you guys could state what particular religion/belief system you consider yourself a part of. As I'm sure you know, "god", "heaven", "soul",etc... spiritual lingo in general, can mean very different things depending on the religious (or lack of religious) views of the person using the words. .

So it would save everybody a lot of time and energy and probably headaches and frustration if we could clear that up right off the bat... Otherwise we're going to waste dozens of posts playing 20 questions going "Well, doesn't god say/do/whatever THIS" and the other person going "no, not MY god, MY God doesn't say/do/whatever that." and then just move on, thinking the question answered, while adding absolutely nothing to the conversation or the other person's understanding of where you're coming from.. In that situation, it's helpful and good to add what your god DOES say/do/whatever about whatever."

Hope I'm making sense here... Like I said I'm a little fried. I'm making sense to me at any rate.  :)

What was I getting at? Oh yeah, how it's really no fun for anyone to have to essentially drag the bare essentials of your belief system out of you over the course of 8 pages of text... As you can tell just from this thread, we've all wasted 8 pages just trying to get clarification on the most fundamentally basic language YY uses and what exactly he believes in. I've just been watching it go down, barely participating, and even *I'm* embarrassed and frustrated for the people trying to get a glimpse of some of YY's cards that should have been laid out on the table right off rip.

It's been a complete waste of everybody's time. Tons of words spoken from his side of the fence, but no thing's really been *said* that could be construed, and we're all a little stupider for having indulged him in existential partake for days on end.


This works both ways, by the way. It's one of the few actual "RULES!" of the forum - you can't continue to dodge questions... If someone puts in the time and effort to ask it, and they make it clear that they're really genuinely interested in your answer, it's both irritatingly disrespectful  and dishonest and shady of character to simply decide not to answer it because it's too hard, would take too long, or what have you. If that's the case, just say so. We'll try to be understanding and give you tie to work it out, if you need it.

If you don't know the answer to a question, JUST SAY SO!

I think you'll find that people's opinion of you will sink like a stone if you're caught just pulling answers or statistics out yer booty. Just be honest. Say "I don't know." or "I'll have to look into that and get back to you." or "Give me some time to think about it." You'll find people here are shockingly patient if you just ask for time. It does nobody any good at all to try to build a house out of bricks of pudding.

People here check their facts, they check your facts, they check everybody's facts. And the majority are ex-Christians as well, more schooled in and knowledgeable in scripture than many preachers I've known.

So make sure you know what you're talking about, otherwise you're likely to find yourself in front of a firing squad REAL quick. It's really one of the only things we ask of members - and one of the things that can start a raging firestorm without even using any tinder. That stuff can make you spontaneously combust. So just don't bullshit people. Keep it real. 

But hey, like I said, it works both ways. We have to abide by the same rules. The overwhelming majority of us will answer pretty much any questions you have with no gobbledygook flim-flammy Jello answers... Pretty much all of us shoot from the hip and try to do it as straight as possible. and you'll see "I don't know" a LOT if you keep an eye out for it. Ditto with things like "I'm not entirely sure, but to the best of my knowledge I think..."

You know, just preface important statements with a disclaimer if you're not entirely sure... One bullshit answer can ruin the good will of 50 "atta-boys"!, as my father used to say.

If you guys can do the same, and maintain at least some basic level of mutual respect for the members of the forum, I think you'll find we can all have some productive and entertaining conversations. I hope I'm right!

Conversation here can get very adult very quickly too. Keep in mind that most times, if you hear hostile language or catch hostile attitude, it's usually aimed at the ideas we're discussing, and not the actual person.  Try to remember that before instinctively getting defensive - it's a natural response a lot of times, but you should at least take a second to ask yourself if the person is actually attacking you as a person, or just the words you typed. 

If they're attacking you as a person, by all means, feel free to fight back if turning the other cheek isn't your bag. The time might come where I myself decide I don't like you as a person - these things happen. If they do, I'd be very disappointed if you didn't at least make an attempt to defend yourself.

I'd like to point out however, that the holy books of the Big 3 technically meet the criteria of an "R" or "NC-17" rated product (meaning for mature audiences only)  by any modern culture's standards (murder,rape, pedophilia,genocide,misogyny, endorsement of slavery, etc. etc. etc.), so in order for us to discuss those bucks openly and honestly, it often becomes necessary to allow us foulmouthed types our full range of expression. Just a friendly head's up, you know? Speaking for myself, I find it intellectually stifling if I have to constantly monitor my rhythms and modes of my speech.

It REALLY bothers me to be censored at all in the first place, but being told I shouldn't call a rape a rape or a slave a slave or what have you will make  me immediately want to check out of a conversation for good. 

A lot of people here on the forum find much of the content of the big 3 Holy Books to be morally abhorrant, and the god Yahweh/Allah/Elohim to be an unspeakably "evil" monster of a character. A lot of us find these holy books just overflowing with what can be perceived to be ethically bankrupt horror stories of an unspeakably ugly culture.

If you can understand that some people feel that way (I do myself, quite often), you can hopefully understand why it would get some people hot under the collar to talk about these perceived atrocities with a person who not only believes in them but SUPPORTS the ugliness of it all, going so far as to proclaim undying LOVE for this monster deity that many say surpasses the love of their spouse and/or children... It's very provocative. But please understand it's the horrible ideas and stories, and the people who use them to justify horrible behavior that gets us angry, not the actual fictional character in the book.

I bring this up now because new members often start yet ANOTHER topic that goes 10+ pages accusing atheists being "angry at god", with the atheists constantly having to explain why you can't hate something you don't believe in...

I really hope I can save us from that mind-numbing waste of time.

You'll earn a TON of respect if you can put on your Teflon big-boy pants before going too far out in the water and don't pull a persecution card or a "stop being a meanie!" every other post. A lot of people withdraw to those tactics, sometimes even subconsciously, and it just kills any momentum the conversation was building.

We're all grown folks here, and we should know that life isn't rated PG, and nobody enjoys censoring themselves or their train of thought simply because it offends somebody. The offended of course think it should be common courtesy for other people to adhere to basic requests for politeness and that it's respectful to change their speech patterns for the sake of the offended party... However I'm of the opinion that it's equally rude to ask a person to change the way they naturally express themselves because YOU don't want to hear it... And I think that's a very selfish, ego-centric position to take as well.

So, you know, please don't do that. I mean, we're godless and we eat babies and strangle dolphins to death with our bare hands for laughs. Potty mouth should be the least of anybody's concerns.  ;)

Holy CRAP did this end up longer than I ever intended it to! Meh lol, whatever. Let It Be.

Anyway, welcome gentlemen. Here's hoping things get productive and enlightening. Maybe most important, entertaining.

G'Night all. 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 11:50:38 PM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #223 on: October 13, 2011, 10:24:48 PM »
So Scientifically speaking, you all think we just came from nothing?

Jesus Christ... no. No. Who lied to you?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #224 on: October 13, 2011, 10:51:06 PM »
Awesome guys. Sorry if I started out on the wrong foot. Didn't mean to assume things Jetson. I usually am better mannered. Not aware of the YY guy....However Jetson, the guys writing the bible were aware they were standing on a planet. Reference Job, The oldest book...and I quote...ch 26, verse 7 "He spreads out the northern skies over empty space he suspends the earth over nothing". I think earth is reference to our planet...just sayin....God Bless You Guys!!!!!

Offline JeffPT

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #225 on: October 13, 2011, 11:06:29 PM »
Prove the existence of God....Where do you want to begin lads? In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth. Great place to begin.

You mean to say someone wrote it in a book that God created heaven and earth?  Why didn't anyone say so before?  That must be true because someone wrote it in a book!    &)

So Scientifically speaking, you all think we just came from nothing?

No.

not possible unless there was a force of some sort creating or causing something to happen and providing the matter.

In other words, if you can't explain it, then by default, the answer must be what you say it is?  Things are impossible because you declare them to be?   

You can call it the big bang, or whatever you'd like, but whatever it was, it didn't "just happen".

Let's forget for a moment that yes, quantum physics says it could have 'just happened'.  There are literally an infinite number of possible causes for the inception of our universe.  Without hard evidence that points to a cause in the first place, it's all speculation.  The BBT is a theory that best explains how our universe started from a factual perspective.  It says nothing about what caused it. 

That's not logical or Scientific.

And.... God is? 

if you take your watch apart, and place all the pieces in a shoebox, it will remain apart forever unless some external force (your hands) puts the pieces back together. And to put that intricate of a mechanism back correctly, it would have to be an orderly, organized force. Not a random force. 

This is very true about watches.  It's a poor analogy for the universe though. 

Some force caused the universe to come into existence. It has not been in existence forever (again, not supported by science). if you take our expanding universe and run it backwards, it had to begin somewhere. From what I've read, that point is referred to as a singularity.

That 'force' that caused the universe to come into existence could have been completely natural. 

And I contend that "somewhere" was the creation referred to in Genesis. The force was God.

O.K.  Can you provide a shred of scientific evidence to back this up?  You seem very high on scientific evidence... do you not hold your own arguments under such scrutiny? 

Science and God are not mutually exclusive. They support one another as God created science, or, better stated, science is what God used to create and maintain our universe.

Baseless assertion.  Can you provide any real evidence for this or is it just your contention?  If I said Zeus created science, how would you go about disproving me? 

"For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse". Romans 1,V20.

Just words in a book, b2.  Just words in a book.  Why do all of you Christians think that every time something has yet to be fully explained by science, you can automatically jump up and declare victory as if you've somehow provided proof that the Christian God did it?  That doesn't follow at all.  That would be like having 2 people try to guess the number I'm thinking of, and having the second guesser declare victory when the first one gets it wrong. 

2000 years ago, men understood nothing about the world, so myths were created to explain things.  Every culture has them.  The Christian myth is no different.  Now, however, we have natural explanations for most things.  We don't need myths anymore because we have a better understanding of the world in natural terms.  The myths are fun, but they're all fake. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Hatter23

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #226 on: October 13, 2011, 11:50:53 PM »
Prove the existence of God....Where do you want to begin lads? In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth. Great place to begin. So Scientifically speaking, you all think we just came from nothing? not possible unless there was a force of some sort creating or causing something to happen and providing the matter. You can call it the big bang, or whatever you'd like, but whatever it was, it didn't "just happen". That's not logical or Scientific. if you take your watch apart, and place all the pieces in a shoebox, it will remain apart forever unless some external force (your hands) puts the pieces back together. And to put that intricate of a mechanism back correctly, it would have to be an orderly, organized force. Not a random force. 

Some force caused the universe to come into existence. It has not been in existence forever (again, not supported by science). if you take our expanding universe and run it backwards, it had to begin somewhere. From what I've read, that point is referred to as a singularity. And I contend that "somewhere" was the creation referred to in Genesis. The force was God. Science and God are not mutually exclusive. They support one another as God created science, or, better stated, science is what God used to create and maintain our universe.

"For since the creation of the world Gods invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse". Romans 1,V20.

How many times does this foolish idea need to be shot down?

First and foremost your argument is based around three major fallacies(though there's plenty of them in there)

(1) Special Pleading: You state the universe had to have a beginning and had to have been cause by an outside force....but not your God.

(2) Appeal to ignorance: The outside force must have been God

(3) Equivocation: The Creator god had to be Yahweh....your bible quote shows your bait and switch intentions
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline plethora

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #227 on: October 14, 2011, 05:56:40 AM »
Ohhhhh.  So evolution is fact?   

Yes.

Quote
Proof? 

Here's a good place to start:
Evidence of Common Descent

The evidence is overwhelming and comes from decades of work in various scientific fields. Here are a few examples of scientific fields which have produced supporting evidence:

  • Genetics: DNA sequencing, DNA ancestry, chromosomes, mitochondrial ancestry ... observable micro-evolution in bacteria and viruses, etc.
  • Biology: Vestigial structures, comparative anatomy between species, etc.
  • Paleontology: The fossil record showing progressive transitions from one species to another.

The list goes on and on ...  I suggest you educate yourself on the subject.

Quote
What is evolution from a scientific prospective since you are so knowledgeable of how life began?

Evolution says nothing about how life began. That would be abiogenesisWiki. This alone shows exactly how ignorant you are on these topics.

Evolution explains how simple organisms developed through billions of generations over billions of years leading to the vast diversity and complexity of life we see today. It explains how the process of natural selection works. Again, do yourself a favor and educate yourself on the subject. Otherwise you just look like an ass topping it off with a shitty attitude.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #228 on: October 14, 2011, 07:08:09 AM »
And I contend that "somewhere" was the creation referred to in Genesis. The force was God. Science and God are not mutually exclusive. They support one another as God created science, or, better stated, science is what God used to create and maintain our universe.

Gen 2:18 clearly states that animals were formed after man, for man's company, whereas, Gen 1:26 says man was created after animals. This is like bet-each-way science. I'm not saying that in science, conflicting hypotheses do not exist simultaneously, but the difference between science and religion is that religion just pulls facts out of its arse, without investigation, similar to the way Plato did. (They did not expect to get caught out. To be sure, it worked for 2400 years.) Later apologists then try to pretend that the religious arse-facts match with current-science-belief facts, when they clearly don't. For example, there is no evidence that the area around the Earth started off as water, which was "blue stuff" that got parted into sky and sea, and then the land formed in between voids of water. Current science uses a super-nova gas agglomeration solar-system model that does not match up with religious arse-facts.

The only way that religious arse-facts match up with current science-facts, is that they both believe there was an original moment of creation, as do a number of indigenous people's creation stories. As science in this area progresses, this may change; we may well find that Big Bang theory was a mis-comprehension, caused by limited linear 3D thinking.

Science and God are not mutually exclusive, but religious thinking is incompatible with science thinking. Religious thinking is done by guesswork and then followed up with tenacious conservatism, on account of the fact that any change in stance means an admission that the original guess was wrong, and did not come from God or a Prophet. Although scientists sometimes have difficulty letting go of bullshit, at least when they do, the whole system does not come crashing down.

Creationism's tenacious determination that God was not wrong about creation is basically evidence of how badly they think their system has crashed down. A lot of liberal Christians have managed to let go of the first 2 verses in the Hebrew text and moved on, because they know a petty struggle to vindicate some early guesswork in Genesis is not going to pay off, since so much else of it is clearly wrong.
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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #229 on: October 14, 2011, 10:02:05 AM »
Please do me a favor and list them again so that I don't have to go through 20 pages of messages to find what you're looking for.

It's always fun to see a theist unable to look back a page or two.  Here you go, yy: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20171.msg447902.html#msg447902

To avoid these questions, you have been moving the goalposts around in quite a frenzy.  It is amusing to watch, but rather ridiculous in a written medium.  I've asked for evidence for your claims that religous books have more "love" in them than hate.  I have yet to see this.

I actually quoted passages from the Bible and the Koran. You only gave me your (filtered) interpretations of what you think the message of the bible might be.  If you expect me to look back a page or two, you could at least look a message or two down for my direct quoted response to you.

At least Greybeard posted a thorough overview with quoted passages to support his claims. You have the gaul to accuse me of moving goalposts when you spout your own unsupported claims. Please take a good look in the mirror at this and MANY of your other posts. You are so much of what you accuse me of being.

How sad. You are a liar, yy.  I also quoted verses.  I did give you my interpretations.  And I have yet to see that you have shown that there is more love than hate in the holy books.  And I have supported my claims.  You have the gall to lie and say that I didn’t, with of course no evidence of this at all.  Sorry, YY, but this is a written medium and you have failed.   
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Offline YY

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #230 on: October 14, 2011, 12:22:31 PM »
How sad. You are a liar, yy.  I also quoted verses.  I did give you my interpretations.  And I have yet to see that you have shown that there is more love than hate in the holy books.  And I have supported my claims.  You have the gall to lie and say that I didn’t, with of course no evidence of this at all.  Sorry, YY, but this is a written medium and you have failed.   

I've highlighted your quoted verses. One true quote and one pretty obscure quote on hate. Ironically, your only real quote is the one about love. So I am correct in saying that you didn't support your claim that there is more hate than love in the holy books because first of all, you're only talking about the bible and secondly, you quoted an equal amount of love and hate.

Let's take a look at your response so that others can be the judge of how quickly you call people liars (not just me but any theist) and how your memory plays tricks on you.

ROFL!  Oh my, YY,  you really think I can’t?  This seems to either indicate you are utterly ignorant of your bible, or you are desperately hoping I am and wouldn’t want to bother with this. We have the entire OT that is all about killing those who disbelieve in God.  The flood, Babel, the events in Exodus, killing men woman and children by God when they were questioning Moses (Numbers 16, always love the killing of the kids by your god), the wars all through the OT, the genocides of people (repeatedly since the authors can’t seem to remember that all of the “x” tribes were already killed in books long before),  the lovely challenge the altars and the annihilation of the priests who lost(funny how this god can’t do that again and show who the “true” believers are).  And then in the NT, we have the claims that all who dont’ believe will be damned, that the Christian god intentionally makes sure some people can’t believe and damns them just for fun and games, that those who don’t believe should be brought before JC/god and killed, and then, ah, the actions to come in Revelation.  We have a war where all unbelievers are killed.  Then JC reigns over the earth full of good happy believers but your god intentionally allows evil back into the world to corrupt even more people just for one more battle with God.  Why didn’t God just leave well enough alone?

Now, for the love that’s shown in the bible.  We have 1 Corinthians 13 which describes what love is.  And the Christian god fails at every turn.  This god is not patient or kind. It describes itself as jealous and boasts constantly.  It allows its most faithful servant to be harmed on a bet.  It is easily angered and keeps records of wrongs.  It works with evil and intentionally lies.  It does not always protect, trust, etc.  It has failed many times, with its many failed covenants, laws, etc, which is rather amazing for a god that is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. 

Christians often claim that God’s love is “unconditional” but there are conditions on top of conditions, the first of which is believe in me and obey no matter what, and that’s the “love” that is described in the OT and NT.  This is the adoration commanded of an abusive entity, e.g. “Love me or die.”   Christians try to claim that God so loved the world that he gave his only son in that we might have eternal life.  That might be true if there were any true sacrifice (not popping up from the supposed grave) *and* if this god hadn’t set up the requirements of a bloody death in the first place.  This is not love, this is a shadowplay attempting to claim that something was given when nothing was.   

You are of course welcome to disprove my evidence above.  Now, that I’ve shown that Christianity and its god have vastly more harm attributed to it in the bible than any “love”, how will you answer my question “why not say that any beneficial effect is a “side effect” and that harm is the intent of these religions?” 

Quote
Personally, I don't care what other people believe or not. I hope that in the future, other religions will find that it's not in their best interest to do so either. But then again, their mind control methods are working, so why fix it if it ain't broke?


Indeed. YY, you claimed that my definition of religion was lacking in someway, that it was “superficial”.  You haven’t clarified that.  You also haven’t shown why theists could be right in claiming that their religions are nonsense in that everything about them shows that they are human creations.

« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 12:25:11 PM by YY »

Offline YY

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Re: This is for YY - Proof of the Existence of a God.
« Reply #231 on: October 14, 2011, 12:32:28 PM »
First, I've been saying all along that I believe God is everything and we are subsets of God/source energy/first cause. So it seems Mr. Einstein agrees with me.

I have to admit I find your interpretation of his quote baffling.  We can argue over what we think he meant, but frankly, all we'd primarily be doing is squibbling about the interpretation of a quote from a person who can never validate it.

But the above line is basically stating that you believe that reality exists, and that we are a subset of reality.  In which case, yes, I suspect that Dr. Einstein would agree with you.  I also agree with you.

Then you give it a name tag.  God.  Ok...not the name I would have chosen, but sure, we can go with that if you like (personally, I would have gone with 'The Universe').  Are we really just having an argument about semantics here?  Or is there something beyond ascribing another word for 'all reality'?

First, let's discuss the interpretation. I don't see your POV and maybe it's my theist filter. But, I think my interpretation of Einstein's quote is much more accurate of an interpretation and frankly, nobody else offered an interpretation. They merely said that what Einstein was contrary to what I believe. I'd like to see some expansion on those claims.

As far as calling it God, that is what I'm more comfortable with and I also believe that our Universe is just one of many, so God is bigger than the Universe. Also, for me, the name God also encapsulates the relationship between all things in the universe. When you say Universe, you're talking about individual items contained in a bowl called "Universe". When I say God, I see these items in the bowl, but I also see their interconnectedness, unity, and relationships to each other in a sense that when there is an action, there is a reaction. I think God is a very different term than Universe.