A question about puberty...

[Ivellios]

So no telling Homosexuals there's something wrong with them. No telling Asexuals there's something wrong with them. And no telling hetrosexuals there's something wrong with them.

I hate it when people try to force thier personal view onto others. I have to deal with this shit at work like we're fricking 7th graders. Pisses me the hell off. Next comes, "You don't get laid 'enough' to prove there's not something wrong with you."

I have a coworker who claimes he, "tags a new p***** every day," and if you don't as well, "there's something seriously ****ing wrong with you." This guy also probably weighs as much as a car. Frikking 12 year olds in adult bodies. This guy also proposed to me and doesn't want to take 'No' for an answer so he's continually punishing me for it. The whole, "Dude, I'm a hetro-," is irrelevent to him. It's a whole mess that I'm the most evil of evils because I denied him his God given right in refusing to give him what he asked for because he asked for it, as it says in the bible, "Ask and ye shall recieve..."

But to be OT.

I noticed about that as well. Puberty >> wait 5 years. However people should be able to support thier family and children before they start making any, and not pass it off to thier parents. imo.

[Dante]

Samuelxcs has said in other threads that he has Asperger's. A quick google search shows that asexuality may be more common among people with Asperger's.

Ah, well that explains some things.

Thanks.

[curiousgirl]

they didn't want girls to start having kids at age 10 because the death rates of mothers at birth was almost as atrocious as the infant mortality rates,

OK. I was simply responding to Gnu's claim:

In England in the 16th century the age of consent was 10. (Which puts Mohammed's marriage to a 9-year-old in the 7th century into perspective, but I digress).

I was trying to speculate (using evidence) as to why this was supposedly the case.

[Graybeard]

The Wiki article is informative Age of consent^Wiki

[plethora]

I had a look at the Wiki ... in the UK the age of consent in 16.

Now, kids are obviously having sex younger than 16 (I know I did). Which makes me wonder if one could legally claim statutory rape if a 16 year old has sex with a 15 year old?

My first time was at age 13 with a girl who was also 13... and there was total consent.

Maybe the age of consent needs to be revised?

[Ivellios]

Well, one of my friends when he was 18, he was dating a girl under 18. Basically the way he described the laws (he researched it because he didn't want to go to jail.) The younger someone is, the closer in ages both persons need to be. I don't remember the chart, but since I was 21 at the time all that was irrelevant to me, since by that time females would need to be 18 or older. When I started dating I only liked females 1-2 years older than me and ignored those younger, so I never bothered.

[Gnu Ordure]

Plethora:

My first time was at age 13 with a girl who was also 13... and there was total consent.

I understand your meaning, that you and the girl were willing and that there was no coercion - but that doesn't constitute consent under the law, because in the UK children of that age are deemed incapable of understanding, and being prepared for, all the potential consequences of a sexual relationship.

What if she had got pregnant, Plethora? Did you use contraception? Did you discuss the possibility of pregnancy? Did you know the girl's attitude to abortion? If she had become pregnant and then decided to have the baby, would you have been ready for the responsibilities of fatherhood, in psychological and financial terms?

I'm guessing that the answer to all those questions is, "No". Which is why 13 is too young to be having (full) sex.

(Of course this only applies where society sets the Age of Consent much higher than 13. If a society sets the AoC at 13 and is geared up to dealing with parents of that age (for example, societies whose families are extended rather nuclear, and where 13-year-olds are can legally work) then the situation is different).

[plethora]

What if she had got pregnant, Plethora? Did you use contraception? Did you discuss the possibility of pregnancy? Did you know the girl's attitude to abortion? If she had become pregnant and then decided to have the baby, would you have been ready for the responsibilities of fatherhood, in psychological and financial terms?

We used condoms... we were old enough to understand sex leads to pregnancy.

If she had gotten pregnant then fuck ... that would have been a disaster. Our best intentions wouldn't matter we were definitely not ready for parenthood.

I'm guessing that the answer to all those questions is, "No". Which is why 13 is too young to be having (full) sex.

It's not too young to have sex. It's too young to get pregnant. Pregnancy can be easily avoided at age 13.

Besides ... how should the law punish 13 year olds who have sex? Do we accuse them both of raping the other and put them in a juvenile denquent facility? That's nuts.[1]

1.	I'm not talking about actual rape of a minor to another minor where one was literally forced to engage in sexual activity against their will

[Gnu Ordure]

If she had gotten pregnant then f**k ... that would have been a disaster. Our best intentions wouldn't matter we were definitely not ready for parenthood.

Quite. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. And so the burden of supporting an unwanted child would have fallen on your parents. Did they know and approve of you having sex at 13, by the way?

We used condoms... we were old enough to understand sex leads to pregnancy.

Well done. Maybe you were mature for your age, Plethora. Did you also know about HIV, and discuss Safe Sex with your girl-friend?

It's not too young to have sex.

Maybe for you. According to this global report commissioned by Durex:

the average age for people to lose their virginity is 17.4. This ranges from 15.6 in Iceland to 19.8 in India.

And more importantly, the report found a statistically significant correlation between age of first sex and unprotected sex:

Results of Unadjusted Multiple Linear Regression clearly show that the average age someone loses their virginity is a predictor of unprotected sex.

Countries like Vietnam and India, for example, where the age for losing virginity is high, report lower levels of unprotected sex, as opposed to the high income countries of Iceland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway where the average age for losing virginity is low, and levels of unprotected sex are high.

Other independent studies have also concluded the younger a person is when losing their virginity the more chance there is of contracting a sexually transmitted infection.

Besides ... how should the law punish 13 year olds who have sex?

I think it should be a matter for the parents to sort out. Which is problematic if the parents don't think they're doing anything wrong.

But you're a parent yourself, Plethora. So is this what you're teaching your children, that it's OK for them to have sex at 13?

Scenario 1: a furious father on your doorstep with his pregnant 13-year-old daughter. Apparently your boy persuaded her to have sex by telling her that you approved. He wants to know if his daughter's telling the truth... When you confirm it, he's going to hold you responsible.

Scenario 2: your 13-year-old daughter tells you she's pregnant. Imagine taking her for an abortion. Or watching her have the child (ruining her education) and then giving it away (that's got to hurt). Or you and wife raise it yourself...

As you say, disasters. And the responsibility for them would ultimately lie with you, because you're responsible for what you teach your children.

[plethora]

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

The crime is having unprotected sex... we had sex with a condom. Why should that be a crime?

And so the burden of supporting an unwanted child would have fallen on your parents.

The way things are, it would probably have fallen more on her parents than mine. Not that I think that's fair... just saying what's what would have happened.

Did they know and approve of you having sex at 13, by the way?

My parents happen to be assholes... so I didn't tell them anything. But I don't think they would have disapproved had they found out at the time.

Maybe you were mature for your age, Plethora. Did you also know about HIV, and discuss Safe Sex with your girl-friend?

I did know about HIV, but barely. It was 1992. I know I was well aware of Freddy Mercury's death and why he died... though I think I may have thought it was more of a 'gay' illness at the time. I suppose I wasn't fully informed... I hadn't had any sex Ed yet. I wish I had and I wish more 13 year olds were aware the implications of sex and the precautions they need to take.

Luckily, I did know about pregnancy and how to prevent it. Unwittingly, by using a condom I would have also protected myself from STDs, had she had any.

According to this global report commissioned by Durex:

the average age for people to lose their virginity is 17.4. This ranges from 15.6 in Iceland to 19.8 in India.

And more importantly, the report found a statistically significant correlation between age of first sex and unprotected sex:

Results of Unadjusted Multiple Linear Regression clearly show that the average age someone loses their virginity is a predictor of unprotected sex.

Countries like Vietnam and India, for example, where the age for losing virginity is high, report lower levels of unprotected sex, as opposed to the high income countries of Iceland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway where the average age for
losing virginity is low, and levels of unprotected sex are high.

Other independent studies have also concluded the younger a person is when losing their virginity the more chance there is of contracting a sexually transmitted infection.

I suspect the vast majority 13 year olds haven't had any sex education... and maybe the majority of 13 year olds stay virgins but not all of them do obviously. Sex Ed would help reduce the amount of unprotected sex among the younger teens.

Besides ... how should the law punish 13 year olds who have sex?

I think it should be a matter for the parents to sort out. Which is problematic if the parents don't think they're doing anything wrong.

So why make it illegal then if it's up to each parent? This is exactly what I am saying. It should not be illegal. How parents deal with it is up to each household.

But you're a parent yourself, Plethora. So is this what you're teaching your children, that it's OK for them to have sex at 13?

I have one daughter, almost 9. I am not going to talk to her now about what she'll be doing when she's 13.

We have talked about sex (because she brought it up and asked me questions about it, which I answered[1]). She knows what it is, why people do it and she knows that's how women get pregnant. She also still thinks sex is totally gross  . Of course, she doesn't know all the detailed mechanics ... and she is not aware of STDs yet. But she is nowhere near being sexually active yet so there's no rush. We'll go into details on that when she hits puberty.

If she has sex at 13 with a boy her age I won't mind. I just want to be sure she does it responsibly with the appropriate precautions.

Scenario 1: a furious father on your doorstep with his pregnant 13-year-old daughter. Apparently your boy persuaded her to have sex by telling her that you approved. He wants to know if his daughter's telling the truth... 

I don't have a son and I won't be having any more kids... but to take on your scenario ... I didn't make them have sex. They had sex because they wanted to. I would be pissed off at my son not for having sex but for doing so irresponsibly. The furious father has every right to be pissed off... but no fucking way I'm letting him blame me for it. I would offer to help if the girl ends up keeping the baby.

Scenario 2: your 13-year-old daughter tells you she's pregnant. Imagine taking her for an abortion. Or watching her have the child (ruining her education) and then giving it away (that's got to hurt). Or you and wife raise it yourself...

First of all, this could happen when she is 16 or 17 as well, within the age of consent. So making sex 'illegal' for 14 year olds as opposed to 16 year olds doesn't help or change the risks really. It doesn't make a fucking difference at all.

Second ... I was talking about this with my wife a couple of days ago. Basically, the choice is up to my daughter, although I know the last option will impact my wife and I most.

Once she's pregnant the damage is done... no point making her feel like shit. Saying she is 'ruining' her life is a bit extreme. That's not necessarily the case... but it certainly is a life changing situation.

I would have to support her no matter which of the 3 options she takes. Tough shit ... that's what parents are supposed to do for their kids. They're supposed to support them and help them through tough times.... no matter how hard.

As you say, disasters. And the responsibility for them would ultimately lie with you, because you're responsible for what you teach your children.

Some 13 year olds have sex. It's a fact. My daughter will be ready to have sex when she's ready to have sex. I don't know what age she'll be when that happens. If she happens to decide she's ready at 13, I won't stop her.

You're addressing me as if I were encouraging her having sex as soon as possible. That's not true. She can have sex when she feels ready.

... and what good does it do to prohibit it? If she wants to have sex at 13 she'll find ways of doing it anyway whether I like it or not.

All I'm arguing is that making sex between two 13 year olds illegal is fucking pointless and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it either.

1.

I have told her that she can talk to me about anything and ask me anything and there's absolutely nothing she could say that would make me love her any less. I would also listen, understand and be there to help her. Also, I don't freak out when she asks me stuff like this. Which is why she came to me and not her mom

[screwtape]

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

The crime is having unprotected sex... we had sex with a condom. Why should that be a crime?

It's a euphamism.  He's saying, if you are unprepared for the consequences of an action (doing the time), you should not undertake that action (doing the crime).  Similarly, "your mouth is writing checks you can't cash," does not really have anything to do with banking. 

Intercourse with condoms sometimes results in pregnancy.  If you are not ready to deal with a pregnant girlfriend, you shouldn't be schtupping her.  I think that is what Gnu means.

and what good does it do to prohibit it? If she wants to have sex at 13 she'll find ways of doing it anyway whether I like it or not.

Depends what you mean by "prohibit".  If you mean you simply tell her you don't like it and it is forbidden, then nothing.  If you indicate it doesn't matter, or it is no big deal, or you are indifferent, then that may be taken as tacitly condoning her action.  Which could result in consequences she is not ready for and you did not intend.
If you take the time to explain all the ways it could screw up her lifes goals and communicate with her in an honest and adult way, then maybe all the good in the world. 

[plethora]

It's a euphamism.

I know that ... and I don't agree with its use in this instance.

Intercourse with condoms sometimes results in pregnancy.  If you are not ready to deal with a pregnant girlfriend, you shouldn't be schtupping her.  I think that is what Gnu means.

I let my daughter skate in the park provided she wears a helmet, knee-pads and elbow-pads. Could she still fall the wrong way anyway and break something? Sure. There's always a risk something bad can happen. Should I stop her from skating? Of course not.

If you take the time to explain all the ways it could screw up her lifes goals and communicate with her in an honest and adult way, then maybe all the good in the world.

... and this is precisely what I intend to do so that she makes sure she takes the proper precautions when she feels she is ready to start having sex.

Back to the skating analogy ... if I let her skate without ever giving her a safety brief about the importance of wearing a helmet and pads then yeah, I would be a bad fucking parent. But that's not what I'm doing.

... and if, despite my warnings, she goes out one day, neglects to wear a helmet, falls and hits her head badly we will have to deal with the consequences. But don't fucking blame me for her injury just because I let her skate. I did tell her to take the proper precautions.

[Gnu Ordure]

Plethora, may I ask where you draw the Age of Consent line? You say that 13 is not too young to have sex; is that your actual limit, or is it lower? (Some societies set the limit not at a particular number, but at the onset of puberty. Which has some logic to it).

[plethora]

^^^ I draw the line at the end of puberty. What actual age that is depends on the individual's natural development.

I also expect the age difference to be minimal ... less than 2 years will do.

That reminds me ... again I was 13 ... we stayed with a friend of my dad's while on vacation in Sicily. He had an 11 year old daughter (she was a couple of months away from turning 12 and I had just turned 13 so we were about 14-15 months apart). She was the one who came on to me and we ended up dry humping at every opportunity including during the night. We were both still virgins then and we didn't go all the way to actual sex. We stayed there a week. She was just barely out of puberty I think ... anyway, I look back on that and I see nothing wrong with it.... although we kept it under wraps 'cause I don't think her parents would have been cool with it.

[Ivellios]

... and if, despite my warnings, she goes out one day, neglects to wear a helmet, falls and hits her head badly we will have to deal with the consequences. But don't fucking blame me for her injury just because I let her skate. I did tell her to take the proper precautions.

If one's children always did what they're told to do, no Christian would never get pregnant outside of marriage.

Christian parents think telling thier kids, "no.", and even threating them with Hell is deterrent enough that there's no need for sex ed. Christian teen pregnancy in the Bible Belt is evidence enough that this is nothing other than wishful thinking and keeping thier heads in the sand. They make all kinds of lies regarding contraception even to the point of saying you have Higher odds of getting a girl pregnant WITH a condom than without. Then they make thier parachute analogy where they're not going to grab a parachute with a 50% failure rate, but only the one with a 100% success rate. << There is no parachute that has 100% success all the time. >> They equate abstinance to this, but that's a bad analogy... abstinance is not getting on the airplane in the first place.

Whatever it takes to pretend thier denial and wishful thinking is reality, as long as it keeps Sex Ed out of Schools and parents not having the 'talk.' I don't even remember how I learned. All I remember is, I already knew so I was waiting for my parents to have the 'talk' with me. Just in case they could tell me something I didn't already know. Clearly If it was up to my parents, I probably still wouldn't know where babies came from, let alone prevention of pregnancy and STDs. Frikking Bible Belt Christian parents, they think that thu ignoring and wishful thinking, the problem will go away.

[screwtape]

... and this is precisely what I intend to do

great.

But don't fucking blame me for her injury just because I let her skate. I did tell her to take the proper precautions.

pleth, I'm not blaming you for anything.  I am not sure if you are getting testy or if you just like to enhance your posts with colorful language, but it reads as defensive.  I've not accused you of anything or even argued a point of view.  I was just trying to help explain something you seemed to misunderstand.

[Gnu Ordure]

Plethora, I made a mistake in my last post. When I said, Some societies set the limit not at a particular number, but at the onset of puberty, I was referring to the capability of ejaculation or menstruation. But the first ejaculation or menses is the end of puberty, not the onset. Sorry about that.

As Wiki puts it: Puberty is the process of physical changes by which a child's body becomes an adult body capable of reproduction.

The wiki article also points out 'puberty' has another meaning; it can stand for the entire period between childhood and adulthood in psychological and cultural terms, as well as physiological. So a child is said to grow up, enter several years of puberty, then emerge as adults (which societies define as the Age of Majority). But the AoM is 18 in the UK, so I guess you're not using the word in this sense.

So when you say, I draw the line at the end of puberty, I assume you mean the time of the first ejaculation or period. Is that right?

Gnu.

PS And from your swear-words I see that you're angry about this. I suppose it's because I disagree with you about an aspect of your parenting? But I don't know what I can do about that... PPS I'll reply to your post 38 tomorrow.

[12 Monkeys]

I would have to say it has more to do with financial dependency,who at 14 does not have the "urge" but not the means to support offspring?

[kardula]

It occurred to me that in most species, the young go through puberty and then reproduce.   

But people don't do that. They hit puberty, wait five years, then reproduce.

Why do we do that? Is it a moral decision, or a practical one? Or some other reason... ?

I think it's a combination or moral and practical. Most are taught that it's not OK to reproduce until marriage, also it's not practical to reproduce until you can hold a stead job. Most states have a minimum age of job holding at 16, so that would put it at 3-4 years after puberty hits. While humans are biologically able to reproduce at 13 or so, we are brought up being told that it's too young and have had this embedded in us from an early age, this has changed over time however. I forget the exact numbers but humans are marrying much older that we ever used to and having kids much later than we ever used to. I believe that as we move much more towards a society where self actualization/esteem is a more acheiveable goal than ever and for more people, we start seeing a change in the age in which we reproduce. Without actual evidence to back this up, I would guess that if you look at the more industrialized or modern societies/countries you'd see that there's a difference in age of first marriage (and assumptively first child) that is higher than some of the more agrarian societies where reproducing is beneficial in that the more children you have, the more help you have around the farm.

again, most of this is an assumption on my part.

[plethora]

But don't fucking blame me for her injury just because I let her skate. I did tell her to take the proper precautions.

pleth, I'm not blaming you for anything.  I am not sure if you are getting testy or if you just like to enhance your posts with colorful language, but it reads as defensive.  I've not accused you of anything or even argued a point of view.  I was just trying to help explain something you seemed to misunderstand.

Sorry about that. I was raised in Brooklyn, New York and so I generally speak with a lot of foul language. I guess it is a way of enhancing what I'm saying.

If my post read as defensive, that's because I was imagining the hypothetical furious father barking at me as if I were to blame for his hypothetical daughter having sex with my hypothetical son and getting pregnant. I certainly wouldn't accept the blame. I wasn't being defensive against you though nor did I think you were blaming me for anything. I was rather enjoying the discussion 

[plethora]

Plethora, I made a mistake in my last post. When I said, Some societies set the limit not at a particular number, but at the onset of puberty, I was referring to the capability of ejaculation or menstruation. But the first ejaculation or menses is the end of puberty, not the onset. Sorry about that.

No probs, Gnu. Thanks for the clarification.

So when you say, I draw the line at the end of puberty, I assume you mean the time of the first ejaculation or period. Is that right?

Yes... that's what I meant.

PS And from your swear-words I see that you're angry about this. I suppose it's because I disagree with you about an aspect of your parenting? But I don't know what I can do about that... PPS I'll reply to your post 38 tomorrow.

Hey Gnu... see my reply to Screwtape above. I can see why you thought I was getting angry but I actually wasn't at all. I can be passionate when I'm discussing a topic and it does show at times ... and I do use a lot of swear words even when I'm happy

Anywho, no worries ... I'm actually enjoying this discussion.

[Graybeard]

My take is that animals do not have the benefit of experience and advice. This is because their language on the future and the abstract is extremely limited or non-existent.  No one says to them,

“OMG! There you are – you are only 2 years old, and now here you are pregnant with 8 pups! How are you going to catch enough rabbits? Have you ever thought of that? And what when winter comes? Did you think of that! Look at that dog up the stream! 12 puppies and all but 2 of them died! And who’s the father? I bet it’s Butch! He’s sired more puppies than you can count! And he’s not really got a job in the pack!”

I doubt anyone here would think that a pair of 12 year olds, on their own, would produce healthy, happy, well-adjusted, well-nourished offspring suitable for life in a city.

Humans advise; they pass on experience by speech and actions. Our experience produces a better chance of better humans; humans that are likely to be able to survive in a complex and uncertain world. We don’t like the idea of waste and all that you produce should go towards the immortality of your genes. We have moved away from, 20 children, 4 of whom survive to breed.

The figures that support this are those that show that the average age of women at the time of their first successful pregnancy has risen over the past 50 years.

[Gnu Ordure]

Plethora:

I was raised in Brooklyn,

Ah, OK, I get you - ya fat mudda-fudda. 

So when you say, "I draw the line at the end of puberty", I assume you mean the time of the first ejaculation or period. Is that right?

Yes... that's what I meant.

The median age of menarche in the US is 12.5 years. That means that 10% of US girls have their first period under the age of 11. A smaller proportion at 9 and 8.

Do really think these 8 and 9 year old girls are old enough to be having sex, simply on the grounds that they are menstruating?

It was 1992... ...I suppose I wasn't fully informed... I hadn't had any sex Ed yet. I wish I had...

You're making my case that you were too young...

Luckily, I did know about pregnancy and how to prevent it.

Yes, you were lucky. And you were lucky the contraception worked. (And lucky her father didn't find out).

  I suspect the vast majority 13 year olds haven't had any sex education...

Which is one reason why they shouldn't be having sex. Kids shouldn't drive cars before getting driving-education. Accident waiting to happen.
 
 

So why make it illegal then if it's up to each parent? This is exactly what I am saying. It should not be illegal.

In practice, it's not. Police don't arrest 14-year-olds for having sex. It's still wrong, though.

but to take on your scenario ... I didn't make them have sex. They had sex because they wanted to. I would be pissed off at my son not for having sex but for doing so irresponsibly.

Maybe he was responsible, but the condom just broke. Unlucky, but the consequences fall not on him, but on the girl, and both sets of parents.

And maybe he was irresponsible and careless - simply because he was too young.

but no fucking way I'm letting him blame me for it.

If your son isn't responsible for the unwanted pregnancy or its consequences, then who is? The person who educated him, perhaps?

  You're addressing me as if I were encouraging her having sex as soon as possible. That's not true.

Strawman, Plethora. It's matter of approval rather than encouragement.

All I'm arguing is that making sex between two 13 year olds illegal is fucking pointless and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it either.

It's wrong to the extent that it is irresponsible. Having sex is an adult activity because it has adult consequences. Kids can't handle the consequences, so they shouldn't be doing it.

[plethora]

Ah, OK, I get you - ya fat mudda-fudda. 

Fuggedaboutit 

The median age of menarche in the US is 12.5 years. That means that 10% of US girls have their first period under the age of 11. A smaller proportion at 9 and 8.

Do really think these 8 and 9 year old girls are old enough to be having sex, simply on the grounds that they are menstruating?

No, I don't think it's simply on the grounds of a girl menstruating or a being able to ejaculate.

Individual sexual development is gradual. Boys and girls don't feel ready for sex the moment they menstruate/ejaculate. They will go through stages of self-exploration, experimentation with themselves and perhaps others their own age, they will progress to engaging in sexual behaviors (without penetration) with other individuals their age who are willing to participate and eventually progress to the point where they feel ready for full sex.

I don't see an 8/9 year old girl going from their first menstruation to feeling ready for full on voluntary sex directly and much less finding another willing 8/9 year old to do it with. If it ever did happen naturally, the instances are so rare as to be negligible to the boarder issue.

When you consider how people develop naturally, chances are they won't feel ready sex until at least age 12 or so and even then they would need to find a willing partner.

It was 1992... ...I suppose I wasn't fully informed... I hadn't had any sex Ed yet. I wish I had...

You're making my case that you were too young...

No. I am making the case that I had no sexual education and that, at the time, HIV awareness was very low.

Yes, you were lucky. And you were lucky the contraception worked. (And lucky her father didn't find out).

Yep... and I was lucky every single time I got in a car and didn't have a car accident.

  I suspect the vast majority 13 year olds haven't had any sex education...

Which is one reason why they shouldn't be having sex. Kids shouldn't drive cars before getting driving-education. Accident waiting to happen.

Missing the point. There should be more sex education and it needs to be given before the age of 13.

So why make it illegal then if it's up to each parent? This is exactly what I am saying. It should not be illegal.

In practice, it's not. Police don't arrest 14-year-olds for having sex. It's still wrong, though.

That sounds comparable to those who want abortion to be made illegal but don't think women who get abortions should be punished by law. So what's the point of making it illegal?

Maybe he was responsible, but the condom just broke. Unlucky, but the consequences fall not on him, but on the girl, and both sets of parents.

And maybe he was irresponsible and careless - simply because he was too young.

Did you see my bicycle analogy in my earlier posts? I think that addresses this point.
Bad things can happen no matter how many precautions are taken. Doesn't necessarily mean we should stop them from doing it.

If your son isn't responsible for the unwanted pregnancy or its consequences, then who is? The person who educated him, perhaps?

Circumstance. If he did it responsibly and shit happened anyway (i.e. condom broke), then it was pure circumstance and no one is to blame.

Strawman, Plethora. It's matter of approval rather than encouragement.

Ok. So given that it's not a legal matter and merely a matter of approval, then I guess there's nothing left to say. Some parents approve of their children being gay and some don't. There's no law to force them to approve of it (and there shouldn't be).

All I'm arguing is that making sex between two 13 year olds illegal is fucking pointless and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it either.

It's wrong to the extent that it is irresponsible. Having sex is an adult activity because it has adult consequences. Kids can't handle the consequences, so they shouldn't be doing it.

How do you plan to stop young teenagers from having sex then?

[Ivellios]

How do you plan to stop young teenagers from having sex then?

You cannot. All you can do is educate them on consequences financial and otherwise and hope that they make an educated decision. Let them know how much it costs to raise a child, let them know how much they will need to make to support themselves, the mother and the child. Don't act like it's something Top Secret and if anyone finds out National Security has been compromised. I'm not saying to divulge how much you make, only what a family starting out requires.

Show them. Let them know if they make less than $XX,XXX they'll be wondering every single month how they're going to pay thier $20 phone bill. That barely living paycheck to paycheck puts a considerable amount of stress on a situation that shouldn't be there when trying to raise a child. It also creates marital strife, and soon they'll end up as a single parent. If you thought being married with a young one is bad...  doing so without help is many times worse.

Also don't blow stuff out of proportion. When they find out that not every sexual encounter results in HIV or other STDs, pregnancy or anything else. Because when they find out that is not the case, they'll take the flip side and think that it's just fairy tales made to scare them like everything else religious. Then they think that it cannot happen to them[1]. Just because you've crossed the road time and time again without looking both ways, and have not been hit... doesn't mean you will never be hit. It's just probability, and knowing how to prevent an accident goes a long ways in keeping the accident from happening. It won't save you from that person flying around the corner going 70 to flee from that police officer, but normal circumstances.

1.	Considering this state is natural to most teenagers, why would you want to feed it?

[plethora]

^^^ I fully agree with all that. 

[Nam]

To the OP,

Personally, I feel children having children is ridiculous.  Just because it's in our "nature" to do something, doesn't mean we should do it.  It's in our nature to be violent idiots .. so should we be violent idiots?

-Nam

[Gnu Ordure]

 
Hi Plethora,

[ <sigh> I just finished writing this post, Pleth, and then realized I've been making another goddamn conceptual error. The subject under discussion is the appropriate age to engage in full sex, and I've been referring to the Age of Consent as if it defined that age. But I've just realized it doesn't; the AoC refers to any sexual activity. Wiki: when used in relation to sexual activity, the age of consent is the minimum age at which a person is considered to be legally competent to consent to sexual acts.

Maybe I should just shoot myself...

I'll post this anyway, in the hope that you understand what I was getting at.]

One of the issues here is the Law, and the necessity of drawing a line somewhere. It could be an invariable event such as a birthday, or a variable event such as the end of puberty, but it has to be clearly defined for each person. I asked you:

may I ask where you draw the Age of Consent line? You say that 13 is not too young to have sex; is that your actual limit, or is it lower? You replied:

I draw the line at the end of puberty. What actual age that is depends on the individual's natural development.

I pointed out that some children end puberty at 8 or 9, and you now say that the end of puberty is the beginning of a developmental period:

Individual sexual development is gradual. Boys and girls don't feel ready for sex the moment they menstruate/ejaculate. They will go through stages of self-exploration, experimentation with themselves and perhaps others their own age, they will progress to engaging in sexual behaviors (without penetration) with other individuals their age who are willing to participate and eventually progress to the point where they feel ready for full sex.

So you're not drawing the line at the end of puberty, you're setting it at some point after that, at the time that they are ready for full sex.

Which I agree with. The problem is that there are no tests available to determine when someone is psychologically mature enough to have full sex. So the Law draws a line based on an agreed conservative estimate of the time required.

When you consider how people develop naturally, chances are they won't feel ready sex until at least age 12 or so

I agree, it might well take 3 years to become mature enough.

So if the average age of puberty in the UK is 12.9, it would be reasonable to add three years to that: 15.9. Add three months to be on the safe side, and we have 16. Which is where the Age of Consent line is actually drawn.