Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?

[helenecombs]

......I knew there were things about God I didn't understand, but I knew he was there and that he was interested in my everday life. That's it.  Yeah, I've asked for healings of people and their pain stopped immediately and stuff......

....and yet, your own mother is (was?) seriously ill.  There are horrendous things happening in the world all the time.  Have you NOT been praying for them?  Or have you been praying, but nothing has happened?

Kcrady has already covered the 4 possible options, but what I'd like you to consider is this: if your god sometimes gives you what you pray for, and sometimes does not.....then whose wishes are ultimately most important?  Are you given the things you ask for, or just the things that someone else wants you to have?  And the corollary to that - if you did NOT pray for something, and it was something that your god wanted you to have, would you receive it anyways?  Or would you go through your life without something your god desperately wanted you to have, but he was unable to give you because it never occured to you to ask for it?

In other words, does it not matter in the slightest whether you do, or do not, pray for anything in particular, because everything will happen just the way your god wants it to and there is not the slightest thing you can do about it?  And if that is the universe you believe we live in, does that not mean that everything - from the greatest good to the darkest evil - happens solely and exclusively because it is the will of your god?

he's not my personal genie.  i think i get the point that he's God, I'm not, I'm over it.  It's about trust...and i don't think i got it till just this minute that it's because of him that i have any trust at all... i haven't prayed this much in months or felt this good. thank you. you guys are good.   

i do feel bad for one thing though so i must apologize.  lucifer wrote about something i wrote. he was asking the readers if he was understanding what i wrote to mean that "i'm (helen) a coward".  i misunderstood what he wrote. when i read it, i thought he was asking if he was correct in thinking that i (helen) was saying that "i'm (lucifer) a coward". so, basically, it thot he was asking if i was calling him a coward and for some reason, that struck me so funny. Then he thought i was crazy ( not for the obvious christian reason), but for thinking that was comical and posting what i did.
It was that  i completely misunderstood what he said. online communications are tough to learn, i think.   

[helenecombs]

i am surprised by the tears that sprang to my eyes when you asked about my Mother.  I think that the beating and sexual abuse she suffered as a child combined with the rape that brought me into the world (and that was only one rape) as well as other beatings and early drug use and later alcohol abuse (which i believe blew out her executive function), her schizophrenia, and paranoia brought about her dementia.

It may also be that she was genetically predisposed to Alzheimer's and it was exacerbated by later things.  .....I'd say she definitely has frontal lobe issues and a high degree of expressive aphasia.

Helen, I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, and her (and your) experiences.  My mother is currently descending rapidly into dementia (currently well into the middle stages) so I know a little of what you are talking about.

But......

You've said in another thread:

I know this seems trite or even shallow, but i think things that are developed inside us because of suffering are more important to God than that we be healed and even that doesn't seem a sufficient enough an answer.....If it means eternal life and harmony and understanding in (the afterlife).

Does that not mean that EVERYTHING that happened to your mother was all part of god's plan?  That her suffering was imposed on her by god so that she - and you - would develop sufficiently to be suitable to enter god's afterlife?

I can't begin to imagine how that must be affecting you - to know that the god you worship caused all that suffering for you and your mother, since - without that suffering - neither of you would have been in the correct state to be saved.  I truly, honestly, cannot understand how you can believe that, and still worship that god.

yeah i realize my insensitivity..i've been watchin too many "scrubs" episodes. its so easy to not be sensitive to people's feelings and thots about things. i grew up in a house with 14 kids (mom couldn't care for me much of the time) so we just tormented one another. anyone in a large family knows what im talking about.

[helenecombs]

when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution intelligent design...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one.

I fixed that for you.

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

--in spite of me

I see a lot of unsupported assertions here...none of which correspond to reality.

not your version of reality, but you're not the only one here. and until u get a face lift...it's over.

[helenecombs]

  As far as being asked about proof. I think I'll leave all of that to God. I'm not so good at that.  Its usually subjective for me anyway and when it is a physical manifestation then its usually a second-hand story so i dont' really feel compelled to share it. I would still like to occasionally comment on a general topic by sharing my thots. I think thats how it works.

Well, see, many of us here have asked what we thought was God to offer proof.  Heck, even a hint would have been nice.  Eventually, we realized what we saw was coincidences and placebo effects and lots and lots of SPAG. 

I don't mean to be rude but I'm curious why you're here.  You don't seem to be curious as to why god doesn't heal amputees (or any of the obvious questions that leads to), you're not even here to proselytize.  You just bored?  Because if you are, that makes sense to me to poke around here, but dang, I would think there are so many more interesting ways to pass the time.

don't you think its odd that you care why im here. im not worried about you being here. none of these videos or lectures or whatever are valid to me. sorry, but i see no more a valid arguement with anything presented here than anywhere.  heck ive even got a handicap: im not allowed to use any scripture or anything.  theres no evidence of any of this stuff just second hand accounts and stories from so called professors and scientists who make no sense in my opinion. they are so desperate to push evolution that now they make stuff up and change stories from the original stories told. I have all of the solid evidence i need. i suppose im going to have to have God do something about all this stuff so you guys can get some comfort in what you see in the world. im on it.  why do i always do what the voices in my head tell me to....   g'nite...man, i'm beat.
 

[C]

[Ivellios]

and until u get a face lift...it's over.

WTF? 

Keep believing in your windows in the Sky Dome and the Store houses of hail and snow and a place that Mr. Lightning lives and that God has to wake up the sun every day so he can get up and start his trek flying across the sky.

Someone mentioned this earlier... if you've collected enough proof to prove evolution false, where's your Nobel? Science isn't out to prove God doesn't exist... it seeks to try to figure out how the world/universe works. When we found out how echos happen, it wasn't to kill Echo but when we found out Echo wasn't really real after all, then she died.

Everything that science has done that proves that Santa Claus couldn't possibly be real, yet people insist on believing in him. They keep stating how they have proof he's real. That those that do not believe are just angry or refuse to accept the truth. There's considerably a mountain of more evidence that proves Santa to be real than your god. Yet, as we all know, there is no Santa.

Every time Science discovers the facts about something, that God wasn't really behind it at all, he shrinks back. He went from being in control of everything... to what now... Abiogenesis and BBT? God is now so far removed from reality the only things he is referred to now is in regards with, how the universe and life began because we've got a pretty good handle on most other things. He is nothing more than the "God of the Gaps." If/When we finally figure out how those 2 things happened he will shrink away again. He will not be there looking back. He will not say, "I told you so." He will not be there. Like he wasn't there when we first learned how to build buildings taller than mud/brick buildings could be. Remember how mud/brick buildngs could touch the Sky Dome and God the All-Powerful was afraid of humans entering into heaven? So he made them speak many languages? You remember that?

How about that you cannot build upon sand?

Petronas Towers http://kiat.net/towers/reality.html

[Anfauglir]

I can't begin to imagine how that must be affecting you - to know that the god you worship caused all that suffering for you and your mother, since - without that suffering - neither of you would have been in the correct state to be saved.  I truly, honestly, cannot understand how you can believe that, and still worship that god.

yeah i realize my insensitivity..i've been watchin too many "scrubs" episodes. its so easy to not be sensitive to people's feelings and thots about things. i grew up in a house with 14 kids (mom couldn't care for me much of the time) so we just tormented one another. anyone in a large family knows what im talking about.

Helen - you completely missed (or, perhaps, avoided) the point.  Let me make it quite clear for you.

You believe that "suffering" is sent by god to increase people's chances for salvation.
Your mother has had a life full of suffering.
Therefore, by your own arguments, ALL her suffering was put on her by your god.

How does that make you feel?



<<Edit to fix quotes>>

[Anfauglir]

.....so called professors and scientists who make no sense in my opinion. they are so desperate to push evolution that now they make stuff up.....

Give a specific example.  If you cannot do so, then retract this statement.

I have all of the solid evidence i need.

Give a specific example.  If you cannot do so, then you do NOT have solid evidence - and again, should retract this statement.

- - - - -

We have seen so many Liars For Christ on this site - frankly it gets quite boring.  Particularly when they spout the same lies over and over again and refuse to get specific when (repeatedly) challenged to do so. 

Maybe they aren't all deliberate liars - maybe some are just repeating the lies told to them that they honestly believe - which would be fine......IF they did not then display their innate dishonesty by refusing to re-evaluate their beliefs when those lies are exposed.  At that point, they are lying deliberately.....proud to be Liars For Christ. 

I just wonder though....once they have been exposed as an LFC, why would they then think that anything they may have to say about their god would be believed?  If they've deliberately lied once, why should we assume they are being truthful about anything else they say?

[Hatter23]

when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution intelligent design...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one.

I fixed that for you.

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

--in spite of me

I see a lot of unsupported assertions here...none of which correspond to reality.

not your version of reality, but you're not the only one here. and until u get a face lift...it's over.

Uh...no everyone's version of reality.

Rage not of human origin.....support this very weird assertion, of some sort of woo capable of changing human emotions, or shut up

Jesus "blowing off the toupees"...if this were true...there wouldn't be other religions...so you assertion does not correspond to The Jews, The Islamics, the Hindus, the Bhuddist, The Atheist, The Pagan, or The Deist. YOu are objectively and absolutely wrong.

[velkyn]

don't you think its odd that you care why im here. im not worried about you being here. none of these videos or lectures or whatever are valid to me. sorry, but i see no more a valid arguement with anything presented here than anywhere.  heck ive even got a handicap: im not allowed to use any scripture or anything.  theres no evidence of any of this stuff just second hand accounts and stories from so called professors and scientists who make no sense in my opinion.

so because Helen doesn't understand it's wrong.  Sorry, life doesnt' work that way. You, dear theist hypocrite, use this science you so ignorantly decry everyday without questioning it once.  You benefit from the science that supports evolution. IMO, it's too bad that you can't be forbidden the antibiotics, computers, etc that science makes possible when you are so sure they don't work .   

they are so desperate to push evolution that now they make stuff up and change stories from the original stories told.

And more pathetic lies.  Hell is getting fuller by the minute by Christians who think they can lie for their god.

I have all of the solid evidence i need. i suppose im going to have to have God do something about all this stuff so you guys can get some comfort in what you see in the world. im on it.  why do i always do what the voices in my head tell me to....   g'nite...man, i'm beat.

Helen, you sound much like a couple of other women who have been on this forum, "bikerbabe", etc, all sure that their delusions are true but too cowardly and ignorant to support their claims. You seem to be simply desperate for attention, no matter what kind it is.

[albeto]

i suppose im going to have to have God do something about all this stuff so you guys can get some comfort in what you see in the world. im on it.

Awesome!  Tell God I want a new car. He knows my last one died 700 miles from home.

Oh, and if he could clear up my son's autism, that would be cool.

Thanks!

[Hatter23]

i suppose im going to have to have God do something about all this stuff so you guys can get some comfort in what you see in the world. im on it.

Awesome!  Tell God I want a new car. He knows my last one died 700 miles from home.

Oh, and if he could clear up my son's autism, that would be cool.

Thanks!

Hey don't be greedy. Lets start out with ONE Amputee being healed, not my technological means, that completely free from possible fraud, that happened while a group of people were praying for it to happened.

Then we can move on to getting all the children's hospitals disease wings closed.

[Brakeman]

i suppose im going to have to have God do something about all this stuff so you guys can get some comfort in what you see in the world.

Could you please pray for perfect biblical clarity, so that you truly know the word of god as he had it written for mankind. Then you could come back and explain it to us. Why wouldn't god answer that prayer? It's god's message to you anyway isn't it? What would be the harm in you understanding his message to you? Perfect communication has perfect clarity and understanding doesn't it? While you're at it ask him for some up to date info, like where is heaven or hell located despite being "Created" alongside the earth? (Remember Jacob's ladder?)

Ask him where Elijah's bones are located, as the mere touch of them would heal your mom and anyone else afflicted with any disease or even death. Dang that would be cool, I'd get to see my loving grandmother again if I could only touch her corpse with his finger bone.

[riley2112]

I HAVE PROOF OF GOD
OPEN CHALLENGE TO ANYONE

I believe , however believing in God from ones own heart felt feeling and being able to prove God to someone else just by talking is a little hard to believe ,, so lay it on me .