Author Topic: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?  (Read 5538 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2011, 12:36:10 PM »
I have to wonder what this digression has to do with the state of science if religion didn't exist.  I mean, from what I can see, all helenecombs has posted are some vague allusions to scientific proof of a creator, but keeps dodging when asked for that proof because apparently nobody would believe her anyway.

Here's a hint for her; science isn't predicated on faith.  If the evidence points to a conclusion, and further testing and verification of that evidence confirms it, then it doesn't matter whether scientists would prefer to believe it or not.  They follow where the evidence leads.  So she needs to show us the evidence, or stop saying it exists.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2011, 01:18:56 PM »
After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

sad..so sad

don't let me keep you from spiritually abusing people. I'm no one important like a moderator or whatev what I say shouldnt matter. Right?

Ok, Helen makes a reply using the quote function then instead of using the 'EDIT' function, quotes her own reply and adds to it?

Also, what's with all those quote blocks with no reply only to be quoted again? If there is a God, he definately needs to increase the standards instead of selecting the dredges of Christianity to someone that can actully represent.

From claiming to have proof and not showing to having no ability to use even the most basic forum functions beyond 'post' and 'quote.'

Also from earlier has shown that when you break apart her comments and reply to each part individually... when you say, "? I don't understand what you're saying here," in regards to her last sentence all the while showing quite clearly that that person understood the post until that point... she then explains the point of her post but not clarifying on the part they didn't understand, because she thinks that the person is not understanding the post at all.

imo a recipe for a miscommunication disaster.

but to be ot:

There is no point to say you have proof that there is a God, then refuse to show the proof because you think you won't be believed.

I'll reiterate this to show how I read it:

I have some cookies in my cookie jar, do you want some? No, you don't like that kind anyways! NYA NYA!

Offline jetson

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2011, 01:55:35 PM »
helenecombs,

Your activity in this thread is breaking the forum rules that you agreed to when you registered.  This is not a pulpit for people to preach without adding to the discussion, and engaging in reasonable discussion and debate.  You are now on full moderation until you either follow our forum rules, or find another forum to preach in.  This means that all replies you submit will be reviewed first.

You may send me a PM with questions if you have any.

Jetson

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #90 on: October 30, 2011, 05:50:45 PM »
I found this topic interesting, so I commented on what I believe. I had like how many people just start addressing me when the question was quite a generic one and I really wasn't looking for a discussion. I had already read the arguments so I wasn't looking for a discussion. I felt attacked which I think is fairly bad. Doesn't it violate the rules to attack someone for simply stating a reply to a general topic?

Now I'm moderated and treated poorly because I didn't respond to several people within a specified amount of time in tremendous detail when I had other things I was involved in including holding my grandson.  This is crazy.

I still stick with what I first stated about what I think would be the state of science if there was no religion. I did overstep my bounds by getting defensive when I didn't write fast enuf.  My point was that I don't see where history shows that empirical evidence of God has generated much faith in God. I'm not a magician and I said most of it is subjective faith that is. I'm okay with that so I don't know what the problem is. my faith is strengthened and I know what you believe. I'm not without reading.  I just disagree and I am supposed to be able to comment on general topics. I take it to mean that if I comment and my comments are challenged if I don't want to engage I won't and that will be okay.  right?
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #91 on: October 30, 2011, 06:03:21 PM »
I have to wonder what this digression has to do with the state of science if religion didn't exist.  I mean, from what I can see, all helenecombs has posted are some vague allusions to scientific proof of a creator, but keeps dodging when asked for that proof because apparently nobody would believe her anyway.

Here's a hint for her; science isn't predicated on faith.  If the evidence points to a conclusion, and further testing and verification of that evidence confirms it, then it doesn't matter whether scientists would prefer to believe it or not.  They follow where the evidence leads.  So she needs to show us the evidence, or stop saying it exists.


yeah, i tried using the quote for small sections and it didn't work for me so im not so smart on that.  i really only commented on the topic in general. I incited no discussion.  I simply commented on the topic and then I was addressed. yeah that was weird. If I ever comment on anything that I find interesting, Ill be sure not to engage in any discussion to me directly.  I think thats how it works.  As far as being asked about proof. I think I'll leave all of that to God. I'm not so good at that.  Its usually subjective for me anyway and when it is a physical manifestation then its usually a second-hand story so i dont' really feel compelled to share it. I would still like to occasionally comment on a general topic by sharing my thots. I think thats how it works.
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #92 on: October 30, 2011, 06:21:39 PM »
I am kind of amazed at how science is willing to do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures and in some cases humans all in the name of science and of all things: helping humans. 

Heh - and, of course, religion has NEVER done anything atrocious to human beings.  Nor, indeed, do people continue to do terrible things to other humans on a dailt basis because of their religion.

general response to a general topic. 
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #93 on: October 30, 2011, 08:45:04 PM »
I see that you guys attack and troll. this is your thing. this is all you have...hurting struggling christians. everyone struggles. that doesn't disprove God. Here's a word for ya: "you don't win, i've seen the end of the movie. put that in your pipe and smoke it."

No, we don't have to resort to anything like that, we have reality on our side. Some get testy because of the constant christian dishonesty that they see here so often.
That isn't a reference to you as far as I yet know.

Lets keep it simple.. Do you think a demon has possessed your mother and that all the doctors are wrong?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline pingnak

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #94 on: October 30, 2011, 09:17:04 PM »
Terry Jones brings us a nice, four episode documentary about the 'barbarians' that brought down the Roman Empire. 


It's as good as the one about the Crusades.


By the end of the series, you might consider that, had the Roman Empire (with or without the 'holy' part) collapsed a thousand years earlier, civilization and science would have been a LOT further along.

Offline albeto

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #95 on: October 30, 2011, 09:28:54 PM »
  As far as being asked about proof. I think I'll leave all of that to God. I'm not so good at that.  Its usually subjective for me anyway and when it is a physical manifestation then its usually a second-hand story so i dont' really feel compelled to share it. I would still like to occasionally comment on a general topic by sharing my thots. I think thats how it works.

Well, see, many of us here have asked what we thought was God to offer proof.  Heck, even a hint would have been nice.  Eventually, we realized what we saw was coincidences and placebo effects and lots and lots of SPAG. 

I don't mean to be rude but I'm curious why you're here.  You don't seem to be curious as to why god doesn't heal amputees (or any of the obvious questions that leads to), you're not even here to proselytize.  You just bored?  Because if you are, that makes sense to me to poke around here, but dang, I would think there are so many more interesting ways to pass the time. 

Offline kcrady

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #96 on: October 30, 2011, 09:30:00 PM »
when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one. I have to say that those who fall for that one have a tremendous ability to have faith in something less provable and less likely than god.

Unsubstantiated claims...

They weren't following the teachings of Christianity. They did all of that on their own.  It's sad, but it's over. Science is great unless your a rat, or monkey or dog or a person without power, then it's prolly not so much.  as long as it's on your side, you'll most likely love it.

No True Scotsman Fallacy ("But those guys weren't Real, True Christianstm!")...

BTW, thanks to science, my cats have access to better health care than nearly all human beings have had access to throughout history.

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator.

More unsubstantiated claims...

Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

Smug attitude...

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

The "You're angry, therefore I'm right!" and "SATANNNNN!" combo...

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

Braggadocio (unsubstantiated, of course)[1]...

I think that it's kind of ironic though that evidence has in many cases not had any effect on someone's beliefs: lucifer was apparently in the very presence of the 'Big Guy' and according to the story, he decided God wasn't all the hype, those guys in the wilderness; miracle after miracle and nothing, many examples of supposed miracles that produced nothing in the observer.  And then there were those who had little if any miracles and they were willing to be killed for what they believe. I suppose it is really subjective whatever we choose to believe.
 

"Evidence sucks, faith is much better!"...

After taking a look at all of the opposition out here in the world, I'm actually encouraged.

"You guys have only made me believe even more, so nyah!"...

It's not that bad. My thesis should go well. After my testimony, I'll have to go, but I really have enjoyed your guys' company. I'll miss you.. :'(

Bravely running away after declaring victory...

There is one God who is above all the others.

"Oh, Lord, you are soooo big, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell you!" [/Monty Python]...

And, sadly for some, he is undefeatable, he's just more patient than he should be.  When push comes to shove, I don't think many will appreciate it when he does make his move.

Threats of divine punishment, or, "You'll be really sorry when Daddy gets back, then you'll wish you listened to me and I'll get to say 'I told you so!' forever and ever and ever! BWAHAHAHAHAHAA!"...

I see that you guys attack and troll. this is your thing. this is all you have...hurting struggling christians. everyone struggles. that doesn't disprove God. Here's a word for ya: "you don't win, i've seen the end of the movie. put that in your pipe and smoke it."

don't let me keep you from spiritually abusing people. I'm no one important like a moderator or whatev what I say shouldnt matter. Right?

"Help!  Help!  I'm bein' repressed!" [/Monty Python] or "You guys are such meanies!  Waaaah!"[2]

Can't Learn to Quote for bonus points...

...and there you have it, folks, the whole WWGHA Fundie Christian Toolkit, with the possible exception of Pascal's Wager.[3]  Oh, she may have failed to include "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist, so nyah!" (though that is arguably implicit in her Evidence Sucks quote).  That's, OK, thanks to the Free Space, I was able to fill out my Bingo card, how 'bout you?
 1. If you're referring to Jesus "winning debates" with Pharisees in the Gospels, that's only because the Gospel authors rigged things in his favor.  It's like bragging about how great Sherlock Holmes was at solving crimes, or how much smarter he was than Watson.  Oh, and Harry Potter whupped the most terrible Dark Lord in history when he was just a teenager, and he did the whole death-and-resurrection-of-the-Chosen-One bit too.  Guess Jesus got his toupee blown off.
 2. Followed in the first quote, ironically, by "But my god is a lot meaner, and you'llllll beee sooo-rrrryyyy!"
 3. I gave her a mulligan on the reference to a "gamble" that was called out as Pascal's Wager because it was not spelled out as a "bet" on circumstances to be experienced after death.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #97 on: October 30, 2011, 09:49:20 PM »
when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution intelligent design...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one.

I fixed that for you. ;)

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

--in spite of me

I see a lot of unsupported assertions here...none of which correspond to reality.

 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline kcrady

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #98 on: October 30, 2011, 10:13:46 PM »
when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution intelligent design...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one.

I fixed that for you. ;)

You had to actually change what was there to do it.

You're apparently unfamiliar with this little internet joke.  The edits are used to dispute a claim by inserting something the editor thinks fits better.  Like this:

---------------------

The Green Bay Packers are the best football team ever!
---------------------

Quote
The Green Bay Packers San Francisco 49'ers are the best football team ever!

I fixed that for you. ;)
---------------------

So, the fact that Lucifer "had to actually change" what you wrote is kinda the point.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #99 on: October 30, 2011, 11:22:31 PM »
I have to wonder what this digression has to do with the state of science if religion didn't exist.  I mean, from what I can see, all helenecombs has posted are some vague allusions to scientific proof of a creator, but keeps dodging when asked for that proof because apparently nobody would believe her anyway.

Here's a hint for her; science isn't predicated on faith.  If the evidence points to a conclusion, and further testing and verification of that evidence confirms it, then it doesn't matter whether scientists would prefer to believe it or not.  They follow where the evidence leads.  So she needs to show us the evidence, or stop saying it exists.

yeah, i tried using the quote for small sections and it didn't work for me so im not so smart on that.  i really only commented on the topic in general. I incited no discussion.  I simply commented on the topic and then I was addressed. yeah that was weird. If I ever comment on anything that I find interesting, Ill be sure not to engage in any discussion to me directly.  I think thats how it works.  As far as being asked about proof. I think I'll leave all of that to God. I'm not so good at that.  Its usually subjective for me anyway and when it is a physical manifestation then its usually a second-hand story so i dont' really feel compelled to share it. I would still like to occasionally comment on a general topic by sharing my thots. I think thats how it works.
Leaving her quote of my post in for reference.

Look, if you post your thoughts on a subject, you're inviting feedback on your post.  And it's rather rude to not at least try to answer.  You don't need to answer every single person who comments on your post, but you also shouldn't say or imply that you're not going to respond to any of them either.

As for proof, if you don't have any, then that's fine, but you cannot expect to convince a bunch of skeptics of anything without evidence.  Though the honesty - that you don't have evidence that isn't subjective - is a change from people who try to claim that objective evidence supports their claims, except that they're really using someone else's subjective claims as 'evidence'.

I suggest you stick around and keep an open mind about what you see here.  Don't automatically assume that there's no value to it simply because the ideas don't jive with what you already know.  Nobody ever learned anything by only sticking to what they already thought was true.

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #100 on: October 31, 2011, 12:39:10 AM »
I see that you guys attack and troll. this is your thing. this is all you have...hurting struggling christians. everyone struggles. that doesn't disprove God. Here's a word for ya: "you don't win, i've seen the end of the movie. put that in your pipe and smoke it."

No, we don't have to resort to anything like that, we have reality on our side. Some get testy because of the constant christian dishonesty that they see here so often.
That isn't a reference to you as far as I yet know.

Lets keep it simple.. Do you think a demon has possessed your mother and that all the doctors are wrong?
 

i am surprised by the tears that sprang to my eyes when you asked about my Mother.  I think that the beating and sexual abuse she suffered as a child combined with the rape that brought me into the world (and that was only one rape) as well as other beatings and early drug use and later alcohol abuse (which i believe blew out her executive function), her schizophrenia, and paranoia brought about her dementia.

It may also be that she was genetically predisposed to Alzheimer's and it was exacerbated by later things.  She struggled for many years before I was removed from the home and she was hospitalized where they stabilized her and she was somewhat functional until later in life. When we spent time later in my adult life, she seemed much happier about my life with my children, and not quite so "messed up". 

I'd say she definitely has frontal lobe issues and a high degree of expressive aphasia. She would never see a doctor the entire time I was growing up and by the time they addressed her issues, it was too late for the namenda and stuff to do much. 

I did find out though that the Israeli Institute of Medicine joined a medical conference recently with not only a medicine to prevent rheumatoid arthritis as well as an intranasally-administered medicine that dissolves protein plaques in the brain allowing them to be flushed from the body naturally with not side effects.  As always, these things take time to be processed by the FDA. Profit margin is the consideration for them at this point I think. It shouldn't be too long though. 

I say all of that to say that I believe my Mother's issues have medical origins. Other factors as listed above (psychological, etc.)play a role in the severity and onset of major symptoms (my opinion there), but most def it's a physical disease of the brain and I don't think it's incited by anything spiritual.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 12:50:54 AM by helenecombs »
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #101 on: October 31, 2011, 01:05:42 AM »
  As far as being asked about proof. I think I'll leave all of that to God. I'm not so good at that.  Its usually subjective for me anyway and when it is a physical manifestation then its usually a second-hand story so i dont' really feel compelled to share it. I would still like to occasionally comment on a general topic by sharing my thots. I think thats how it works.

Well, see, many of us here have asked what we thought was God to offer proof.  Heck, even a hint would have been nice.  Eventually, we realized what we saw was coincidences and placebo effects and lots and lots of SPAG. 

I don't mean to be rude but I'm curious why you're here.  You don't seem to be curious as to why god doesn't heal amputees (or any of the obvious questions that leads to), you're not even here to proselytize.  You just bored?  Because if you are, that makes sense to me to poke around here, but dang, I would think there are so many more interesting ways to pass the time.

i hadn't read this post before commenting somewhere else on this site about how i was bored from bein' on lockdown with ma and the new grandchild and my son (of course he's really awesome so that part is easy) and the three dogs I used to really have fun with but now sometimes they get on my nerves. they want to be let out all the time.

if you knew me, you'd know im known for doing random stuff like this. it's not really that unusual. 

"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #102 on: October 31, 2011, 01:37:37 AM »
  As far as being asked about proof. I think I'll leave all of that to God. I'm not so good at that.  Its usually subjective for me anyway and when it is a physical manifestation then its usually a second-hand story so i dont' really feel compelled to share it. I would still like to occasionally comment on a general topic by sharing my thots. I think thats how it works.

Well, see, many of us here have asked what we thought was God to offer proof.  Heck, even a hint would have been nice.  Eventually, we realized what we saw was coincidences and placebo effects and lots and lots of SPAG. 

I don't mean to be rude but I'm curious why you're here.  You don't seem to be curious as to why god doesn't heal amputees (or any of the obvious questions that leads to), you're not even here to proselytize.  You just bored?  Because if you are, that makes sense to me to poke around here, but dang, I would think there are so many more interesting ways to pass the time.

okay, since ya asked nicely, i'll give ya a little somethin' to laugh about: before i got so tired and a little unfocused, it was a normal, regular occurence for me to be goin' about my way talkin' to God about just about everything that was going on in my life all day...i gotta log back in so it doesn't make me do that as im gettin ready to post. well, that didn't go so well, but I got back on.

I would be doing dishes and laundry and singing to some music on the radio and as I was thinkin about the bills, I'd think, and say in my mind to God, "It would be a great week if i had just $20 more this week to get by", I'd be lookin' in the fridge for some dinner, and be thinkin' and say in my mind to God, "I haven't had one of those sirloin burgers for a while and it would be great to have one for dinner".
Without saying anything about this to anyone, and even forgetting about it myself, after about 10 minutes my husband comes home from work and greets me and I ask what's in the bag. He looks down and says, "oh, I had to swing by Mom's to change a bulb and she gave me this". I look in the bag and it's a package of two sirloin burgers and a $20 dollar bill. I thought i was tripping...seriously. This exact thing went on all the time.  Just crazy. So I started just doin' stuff like that all the time and it kept going on. I knew there were things about God I didn't understand, but I knew he was there and that he was interested in my everday life. That's it.  Yeah, I've asked for healings of people and their pain stopped immediately and stuff, but this is what had the greatest most profound impact on me. It was a relationship, a close one.

I suppose it's like anything else that we can take for granted: marriage, children, parents, dogs and the list goes on.  Those were the best times of my life. I feel a hope that when I get back to it, it's going to be even better than that.  God answers me in my mind a lot of the time when I'm mad and i know it's him cause it's the same steady quiet voice telling me shit i don't want to hear cause i want what i want which is not to be inconvenienced sometimes.  and im not in ministry yet so i can cuss all i want...just kiddin. sometimes theres nothin like a good meaty cuss word to say it like you feel it.
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #103 on: October 31, 2011, 02:03:17 AM »
Oh Gods, what holes are there in the Theory of Evolution in your opinion and if you really do think so, do you have evidence to support your claim?

P.S.: The Theory of Evolution is not a cult/religion and does not require "faith". This applies to all science and atheism.

Thank You.

I did study evolution in school and later in life when working on my educational goals and i just didn't feel that there was enough evidence to back up the theory. The law of gravity is a law because it's provable. evolution is a theory because it has yet to actually be proved...and i am kinda curious as to the fact that if we are evolved from apes, why are there still apes running around. that's just the tip of that proverbial iceberg on that one for me. since we all have google and what not, i'll leave some of this for people to look up. it's a bit time consuming to site all of this stuff.  Before a living sealacanth was discovered alive, it was said that it was extinct but lived millions of years ago and then one was found alive. so that coupled with the fact that it was just less credible than the existence of the God of the bible. i liked his story the best out of all of them...other religions that is. i thot it was cooler. 8)
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #104 on: October 31, 2011, 02:29:19 AM »
Quote
dredges of Christianity


yeah...i'm definitely the lucky one. ;D
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Offline C

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #105 on: October 31, 2011, 02:49:13 AM »
Quote
Without saying anything about this to anyone, and even forgetting about it myself, after about 10 minutes my husband comes home from work and greets me and I ask what's in the bag. He looks down and says, "oh, I had to swing by Mom's to change a bulb and she gave me this". I look in the bag and it's a package of two sirloin burgers and a $20 dollar bill. I thought i was tripping...seriously. This exact thing went on all the time.  Just crazy. So I started just doin' stuff like that all the time and it kept going on. I knew there were things about God I didn't understand, but I knew he was there and that he was interested in my everday life. That's it.  Yeah, I've asked for healings of people and their pain stopped immediately and stuff, but this is what had the greatest most profound impact on me. It was a relationship, a close one.

Coincidence. Similar things of course happened to me when I was a Christian, convincing me that there was a divine creator watching over my and everybody else's lives. But then you see this...



and this:



and so much more. For a god that seems so concerned with our daily lives, it's laughable how unbalanced his "blessings" are. It's exactly like Santa Claus giving more to the rich kids than the poor ones.

Quote
I suppose it's like anything else that we can take for granted: marriage, children, parents, dogs and the list goes on.

Who are "we"? The ones living in developed countries or developing ones? Because in certain developing countries, NOTHING is taken for granted, yet surprisingly they are the ones getting the shit end of the stick.

Quote
Those were the best times of my life. I feel a hope that when I get back to it, it's going to be even better than that.  God answers me in my mind a lot of the time when I'm mad and i know it's him cause it's the same steady quiet voice telling me shit i don't want to hear cause i want what i want which is not to be inconvenienced sometimes.

That voice can be anything from yourself except an omniscient/omnipotent god whispering into you as a quick anger management crash course while ignoring thousands of children getting abused by their parents, people starving and so forth.

Quote
I did study evolution in school and later in life when working on my educational goals and i just didn't feel that there was enough evidence to back up the theory. The law of gravity is a law because it's provable. evolution is a theory because it has yet to actually be proved...

The scientific definition of "theory" is different from your casual definition of "theory", it means that it is a proven scientific model of a certain part of our world. Often times it can be observed and proven.

Quote
and i am kinda curious as to the fact that if we are evolved from apes, why are there still apes running around.

To put it simply:

We did NOT evolve from apes you see today.

At one point in time chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, humans and orangutans had a common ancestor which diverged into different species multiple times due to natural selection:

First, it split into the orangutan and the common ancestor of the gorilla (which was neither orangutan nor gorilla), then another common ancestor (which was neither gorilla nor human) would diverge into humans and a common ancestor of bonobos and chimpanzees would split into bonobos and chimpanzees. This all explains why we have similarities to each other (and are therefore in the taxonomy of "Primates") and shows us our evolutionary timeline.

Your reasoning of "why are apes still around if we evolved from apes" is like saying "why do computers from the 1980's exist if modern computers 'evolved' from them".

Quote
that's just the tip of that proverbial iceberg on that one for me. since we all have google and what not, i'll leave some of this for people to look up. it's a bit time consuming to site all of this stuff.  Before a living sealacanth was discovered alive, it was said that it was extinct but lived millions of years ago and then one was found alive. so that coupled with the fact that it was just less credible than the existence of the God of the bible. i liked his story the best out of all of them...other religions that is. i thot it was cooler.

... Okay, what you "learned" about Evolution seems to be a whole pot of deliberate misinterpretation of the Theory of Evolution made up by bible-oriented Creationists to discredit a Theory of Evolution they made up and not the actual one.
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #106 on: October 31, 2011, 02:57:08 AM »
I would be doing dishes and laundry and singing to some music on the radio and as I was thinkin about the bills, I'd think, and say in my mind to God, "It would be a great week if i had just $20 more this week to get by", I'd be lookin' in the fridge for some dinner, and be thinkin' and say in my mind to God, "I haven't had one of those sirloin burgers for a while and it would be great to have one for dinner".
Without saying anything about this to anyone, and even forgetting about it myself, after about 10 minutes my husband comes home from work and greets me and I ask what's in the bag. He looks down and says, "oh, I had to swing by Mom's to change a bulb and she gave me this". I look in the bag and it's a package of two sirloin burgers and a $20 dollar bill. I thought i was tripping...seriously. This exact thing went on all the time.  Just crazy. So I started just doin' stuff like that all the time and it kept going on. I knew there were things about God I didn't understand, but I knew he was there and that he was interested in my everday life. That's it.  Yeah, I've asked for healings of people and their pain stopped immediately and stuff, but this is what had the greatest most profound impact on me. It was a relationship, a close one.

Since this is a thread about science, let's approach this the way a scientist might.  We have a phenomenon we want to explain: your apparent ability to wish for certain things ($20 bills, sirloin burgers, and "healings for people").  There are several models that can explain the data:

1) Yahweh, as you conceive him/interpret his message from the Bible actually exists, and personally acts to alter the course of events in Universe in your favor, for relatively trivial things.

2) You have some sort of psychic or magickal power by which you can personally alter the course of events in Universe in your favor; your focus on the desire causes the effect, you're just attributing the positive results to Yahweh by mistake.

3) Some other entity or force acts to alter the course of events in Universe in your favor, but it acts for its own reasons and is not concerned about getting the credit.

4) Coincidence (improbable events do happen, confirmation bias, etc.): There are 300 million people in America alone.  This means that even if something is quite improbable (catching a home run baseball from one's favorite batter, having stoplights turn green just as you arrive, thinking of someone just before they call you, etc.), the odds can still be in favor of it happening fairly often, to somebody.  "Confirmation bias" means that we tend to remember things that confirm our beliefs and forget things that don't.  In this case, times when you wished for a Sirloin Burger and a $20.00 bill, and got them, would stand out in your memory, vs. times you wished for a giant Special Dark bar, and didn't get one.

Of these models, the one I find least credible is the first, especially if you conceive of Yahweh as a benevolent entity, rather than a heartless trickster.  To imagine Yahweh rising from his throne to make sure you get $20.00 and a Sirloin Burger, but sitting back with folded arms watching indifferently while all the horrific things you described in your previous post happened to your mother...the heartlessness and arbitrariness of it beggars the imagination.  The same thing applies to #3. 

Of the "paranormal" explanations, #2 at least has the virtue of being consistent with the data without requiring the paranormal force be malevolent and capricious.  In that model, psychic/magickal power could be limited to arranging small synchronicities and not up to the task of preventing major tragedies like what happened to your mother, famine and war in Africa, innocents killed by drunk drivers, etc..  Its seeming focus on tossing little goodies to you is just a result of how it's used and the modest extent of its power, which is why you're not a superhero.  Model #2 also handily explains how people from other spiritual traditions (Hindu yogis, Amazonian shamans, people from Christian sects you consider heretical, etc.) often claim the same sort of effects to validate their beliefs: it's a power that all/many/some humans possess, and it just ends up being explained in terms of whatever local religion the wielder happens to believe in.

Model #2 (along with #1 and #3) has the major weakness that it, so far, has not been demonstrated to work under controlled conditions designed to rule out coincidence and fraud.  Parapsychologists have spent a hundred years trying to demonstrate the existence of some form of "psi" and, to my knowledge at least, have failed.  At least, they have not demonstrated it in a sufficiently convincing manner to change the minds of qualified skeptics in scientific fields.

Model #4 has the advantage of fitting the data while being parsimonious--it does not require any major revision of other facts about how Universe works that have been amply and repeatedly demonstrated, e.g. in physics and cognitive neuroscience.

So, until more convincing evidence comes in, I lean toward #4 as the most probable explanation.

I suppose it's like anything else that we can take for granted: marriage, children, parents, dogs and the list goes on.  Those were the best times of my life. I feel a hope that when I get back to it, it's going to be even better than that.  God answers me in my mind a lot of the time when I'm mad and i know it's him cause it's the same steady quiet voice telling me shit i don't want to hear cause i want what i want which is not to be inconvenienced sometimes

People from just about any spiritual tradition you could care to name (Oracles at Delphi and Karnak, shamans, New Age channelers, Christians you consider "heretical," etc.) also claim to receive messages from their gods/goddesses, experience apparitions, feel communion with the deity, Nirvana/Enlightenment, etc..  So, we could assume that everybody's gods are real, or that the "voices" people think come from gods come from their "Higher Self" or some common source that chooses to wear the mask of whatever deity is being invoked, or that they're voices emerging from the subconscious/unconscious mind.  Your model (that one, particular conception of one, particular god, is real) has the worst fit to the available data.
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Offline C

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #107 on: October 31, 2011, 03:05:08 AM »
The following video should clear up your misunderstanding of evolution.

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Offline kcrady

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #108 on: October 31, 2011, 03:28:59 AM »
I did study evolution in school and later in life when working on my educational goals and i just didn't feel that there was enough evidence to back up the theory.

The evidence in favor of evolution is enormous.  There's homology (the similarity of biological structures like forelimbs in related organisms that increases with closer proximity of evolutionary descent), genetics (we have much more in common with chimps than with squid, but we and chimps do share some of the same genes with squid, etc.), the fossil record, observed evolution in viruses and bacteria, "ring" species, and so on.  Since you're willing to say "Just Google it," so will I.  If your (apparently limited) study of evolution were sufficient to debunk the theory, I can only wonder: where's your Nobel Prize?  After all, you know more about several fields of science than the entire scientific community combined.  Publish your great discoveries on a scientific journal, and you'll be famous for the rest of human history.

The law of gravity is a law because it's provable. evolution is a theory because it has yet to actually be proved

Er, no.  What we call the "Law" of gravity is an equation Newton discovered that accurately models the relationship of mass and distance to gravitational attraction between objects (which, BTW, breaks down on the quantum scale or at significant fractions of the speed of light).  We do not currently have a working theory of gravity that is consistent with both quantum mechanics and relativity.  A "theory" is an over-arching framework that explains the nature and workings of a phenomenon.  The "theory" of biological evolution explains, basically, the whole shebang when it comes to life: how life diverged from the first biological replicator to the variety of species alive today and in the fossil record, why we share genes, biological structures, and biochemical processes with them, why the fossil record looks the way it does (no bunnies in the Cambrian), etc..

...and i am kinda curious as to the fact that if we are evolved from apes, why are there still apes running around.

This is like asking, "If American history and culture evolved from Great Britain, how come Great Britain still exists?"  Does the continued existence of Great Britain mean there's no such thing as history?

that's just the tip of that proverbial iceberg on that one for me. since we all have google and what not, i'll leave some of this for people to look up. it's a bit time consuming to site all of this stuff.  Before a living sealacanth was discovered alive, it was said that it was extinct but lived millions of years ago and then one was found alive.

It's a coelacanth.  From Talk-Origins:[1]

Quote
Claim CB930.1: The coelacanth, thought to have been extinct for seventy million years and used as an example of a fish-tetrapod transition, is found still alive, unchanged in form, today.

Source:
Morris, Henry M., 1974. Scientific Creationism, Green Forest, AR: Master Books, pp. 82-83,89.

Response:

    The modern coelacanth is Latimeria chalumnae, in the family Latimeriidae. Fossil coelacanths are in other families, mostly Coelacanthidae, and are significantly different in that they are smaller and lack certain internal structures. Latimeria has no fossil record, so it cannot be a "living fossil."

    Even if the modern coelacanth and fossil coelacanths were the same, it would not be a serious problem for evolution. The theory of evolution does not say that all organisms must evolve. In an unchanging environment, natural selection would tend to keep things largely unchanged morphologically.

    Coelacanths have primitive features relative to most other fish, so at one time they were one of the closest known specimens to the fish-tetrapod transition. We now know several other fossils that show the fish-tetrapod transition quite well.

Links:
Lindsay, Don, 2000, Living fossils like the coelacanth. http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/coelacanth.html
Further Reading:
Forey, Peter L., 1998. History of the Coelacanth Fishes. London: Chapman & Hall.

so that coupled with the fact that it was just less credible than the existence of the God of the bible.

Ahahahaha!  Really?  When was the last time you ran into a talking snake?  Or one that, being more clever than the other animals, could understand more sign language than a gorilla?

i liked his story the best out of all of them...other religions that is. i thot it was cooler. 8)

I like the ancient Egyptian gods.  I think they're cooler than Yahweh.  But so what?  Whether you or I like some religion has zero bearing on whether or not it's true.  If anything, beliefs we "like" should be treated with extra skepticism, to counter our natural tendency toward bias in favor of what we'd prefer to be true.
 1. Source: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB930_1.html
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #109 on: October 31, 2011, 06:09:34 AM »
I say all of that to say that I believe my Mother's issues have medical origins. Other factors as listed above (psychological, etc.)play a role in the severity and onset of major symptoms (my opinion there), but most def it's a physical disease of the brain and I don't think it's incited by anything spiritual.
I have a stepdaughter that battles schizophrenia and bp as well. I am well aware of the anguish? well.. enormous everything that goes along with that.
Anyway.. thinking about your mother.. a few questions. I'm sure that you're aware that only a few centuries ago a woman as such would probably be tormented by exorcism attempts to get rid of her "demons" and possibly even killed by burning as a witch. Nowhere in the bible does it explain the mentally ill have a brain disorder, no, it relies on demons that must be cast into pigs and drowned or such. Doesn't that ring a bell for you?

What about your mother's soul? If she were to start blaspheming and cursing christ and the holy spirit while within her dementia, would it then be fair for her to be condemned to hell for all eternity? If not, just where in mental illness would the line be drawn?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #110 on: October 31, 2011, 06:16:15 AM »
i am surprised by the tears that sprang to my eyes when you asked about my Mother.  I think that the beating and sexual abuse she suffered as a child combined with the rape that brought me into the world (and that was only one rape) as well as other beatings and early drug use and later alcohol abuse (which i believe blew out her executive function), her schizophrenia, and paranoia brought about her dementia.

It may also be that she was genetically predisposed to Alzheimer's and it was exacerbated by later things.  .....I'd say she definitely has frontal lobe issues and a high degree of expressive aphasia.

Helen, I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, and her (and your) experiences.  My mother is currently descending rapidly into dementia (currently well into the middle stages) so I know a little of what you are talking about.

But......

You've said in another thread:

I know this seems trite or even shallow, but i think things that are developed inside us because of suffering are more important to God than that we be healed and even that doesn't seem a sufficient enough an answer.....If it means eternal life and harmony and understanding in (the afterlife).

Does that not mean that EVERYTHING that happened to your mother was all part of god's plan?  That her suffering was imposed on her by god so that she - and you - would develop sufficiently to be suitable to enter god's afterlife?

I can't begin to imagine how that must be affecting you - to know that the god you worship caused all that suffering for you and your mother, since - without that suffering - neither of you would have been in the correct state to be saved.  I truly, honestly, cannot understand how you can believe that, and still worship that god.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #111 on: October 31, 2011, 08:35:22 AM »
Oh Gods, what holes are there in the Theory of Evolution in your opinion and if you really do think so, do you have evidence to support your claim?

The law of gravity is a law because it's provable. evolution is a theory because it has yet to actually be proved...and i am kinda curious as to the fact that if we are evolved from apes, why are there still apes running around. that's just the tip of that proverbial iceberg on that one for me.

helen, you claimed there were holes in the theory and C asked you to point them out. You bickering over the definition of a theory doesn't count as a hole, nor does your ignorance of human evolution.

So if there is something within the theory of evolution you do understand and can provide evidence of it likely not being the case, please present it. Or as they say in crude internet lingo: Tits or GTFO.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #112 on: October 31, 2011, 08:51:43 AM »
......I knew there were things about God I didn't understand, but I knew he was there and that he was interested in my everday life. That's it.  Yeah, I've asked for healings of people and their pain stopped immediately and stuff......


....and yet, your own mother is (was?) seriously ill.  There are horrendous things happening in the world all the time.  Have you NOT been praying for them?  Or have you been praying, but nothing has happened?

Kcrady has already covered the 4 possible options, but what I'd like you to consider is this: if your god sometimes gives you what you pray for, and sometimes does not.....then whose wishes are ultimately most important?  Are you given the things you ask for, or just the things that someone else wants you to have?  And the corollary to that - if you did NOT pray for something, and it was something that your god wanted you to have, would you receive it anyways?  Or would you go through your life without something your god desperately wanted you to have, but he was unable to give you because it never occured to you to ask for it?

In other words, does it not matter in the slightest whether you do, or do not, pray for anything in particular, because everything will happen just the way your god wants it to and there is not the slightest thing you can do about it?  And if that is the universe you believe we live in, does that not mean that everything - from the greatest good to the darkest evil - happens solely and exclusively because it is the will of your god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #113 on: October 31, 2011, 10:50:52 AM »
Interesting how a god can be so sweet as to throw in a couple burgers and some money to help offset the stress of having a mentally ill parent to care for, but not lift a divine pinky to rearrange neurons such that mom has a fighting chance.  I would think that's easier, what with it being electricity and all.  No one's free will has to be manipulated like Helen's husband.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #114 on: October 31, 2011, 02:04:50 PM »
I think it's funny that God's "lesson" to those that suffer mental illness is the thing they need to learn most of all in this lifetime is that they need to take thier meds to overcome what God gave them in the first place.

Seriously, it's like me driving a nail through your foot and embedding it into you permenantly to teach you and remind you to take your pain killers that you wouldn't have to take if I didn't drive that nail into you to begin with. And to think that someone would worship me and call me "infinately wise" and All-Loving to boot. God's such a sadistic fuck ... and to think, that you needed this in order to become worthy to spend the rest of eternity with him... so he can wipe away your every tear... and if it wasn't for him you wouldn't have any tears to begin with.

I just got an idea:

I can charge 5% of people's income to tell them that there's something wrong with them. Smash thier hand with a hammer and purge the evil within them. Then charge them another 5% for me to give them the "cure" and make sure to tell them it's only temporary and if they don't come again next week for another "fix" they'll be living thier life "broken." Funny how not going to be reminded that you need fixing they won't get anything broken. As they say, "Imitation is the greatest form of flattery," and when you're imitating someone that's "infinately wise" and known to be "All-Loving," who better to imitate than God?

Offline helenecombs

Re: Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?
« Reply #115 on: November 01, 2011, 04:04:06 AM »
Quote
Without saying anything about this to anyone, and even forgetting about it myself, after about 10 minutes my husband comes home from work and greets me and I ask what's in the bag. He looks down and says, "oh, I had to swing by Mom's to change a bulb and she gave me this". I look in the bag and it's a package of two sirloin burgers and a $20 dollar bill. I thought i was tripping...seriously. This exact thing went on all the time.  Just crazy. So I started just doin' stuff like that all the time and it kept going on. I knew there were things about God I didn't understand, but I knew he was there and that he was interested in my everday life. That's it.  Yeah, I've asked for healings of people and their pain stopped immediately and stuff, but this is what had the greatest most profound impact on me. It was a relationship, a close one.

Coincidence. Similar things of course happened to me when I was a Christian, convincing me that there was a divine creator watching over my and everybody else's lives. But then you see this...



and this:



and so much more. For a god that seems so concerned with our daily lives, it's laughable how unbalanced his "blessings" are. It's exactly like Santa Claus giving more to the rich kids than the poor ones.

Quote
I suppose it's like anything else that we can take for granted: marriage, children, parents, dogs and the list goes on.

Who are "we"? The ones living in developed countries or developing ones? Because in certain developing countries, NOTHING is taken for granted, yet surprisingly they are the ones getting the shit end of the stick.

Quote
Those were the best times of my life. I feel a hope that when I get back to it, it's going to be even better than that.  God answers me in my mind a lot of the time when I'm mad and i know it's him cause it's the same steady quiet voice telling me shit i don't want to hear cause i want what i want which is not to be inconvenienced sometimes.

That voice can be anything from yourself except an omniscient/omnipotent god whispering into you as a quick anger management crash course while ignoring thousands of children getting abused by their parents, people starving and so forth.

Quote
I did study evolution in school and later in life when working on my educational goals and i just didn't feel that there was enough evidence to back up the theory. The law of gravity is a law because it's provable. evolution is a theory because it has yet to actually be proved...

The scientific definition of "theory" is different from your casual definition of "theory", it means that it is a proven scientific model of a certain part of our world. Often times it can be observed and proven.

Quote
and i am kinda curious as to the fact that if we are evolved from apes, why are there still apes running around.

To put it simply:

We did NOT evolve from apes you see today.

At one point in time chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas, humans and orangutans had a common ancestor which diverged into different species multiple times due to natural selection:

First, it split into the orangutan and the common ancestor of the gorilla (which was neither orangutan nor gorilla), then another common ancestor (which was neither gorilla nor human) would diverge into humans and a common ancestor of bonobos and chimpanzees would split into bonobos and chimpanzees. This all explains why we have similarities to each other (and are therefore in the taxonomy of "Primates") and shows us our evolutionary timeline.

Your reasoning of "why are apes still around if we evolved from apes" is like saying "why do computers from the 1980's exist if modern computers 'evolved' from them".

Quote
that's just the tip of that proverbial iceberg on that one for me. since we all have google and what not, i'll leave some of this for people to look up. it's a bit time consuming to site all of this stuff.  Before a living sealacanth was discovered alive, it was said that it was extinct but lived millions of years ago and then one was found alive. so that coupled with the fact that it was just less credible than the existence of the God of the bible. i liked his story the best out of all of them...other religions that is. i thot it was cooler.

... Okay, what you "learned" about Evolution seems to be a whole pot of deliberate misinterpretation of the Theory of Evolution made up by bible-oriented Creationists to discredit a Theory of Evolution they made up and not the actual one.


coincidence: i already commented on that in my intro. it requires a bit of math, and physics, but it's not too bad.
let me guess: you're a middle child?
"God Himself will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain; for the old older of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4