Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?

[helenecombs]

My post was erased so I'm gettin' that back together.  I think that it's kind of ironic though that evidence has in many cases not had any effect on someone's beliefs: lucifer was apparently in the very presence of the 'Big Guy' and according to the story, he decided God wasn't all the hype, those guys in the wilderness; miracle after miracle and nothing, many examples of supposed miracles that produced nothing in the observer.  And then there were those who had little if any miracles and they were willing to be killed for what they believe. I suppose it is really subjective whatever we choose to believe. 

First of all, Lucifer is an adjective used to refer to a king who wanted to be better than your god and Jesus himself. It is not the name of Satan. Second - we don't choose what to believe in. That's why I'm asking for evidence instead of just believing in you.

Personally, I'm not much for taking a gamble when I don't perceive it as a sure thing. Again, subjective.  Does being bullied and called delusional offend me.  Maybe..on a bad day.

Pascal's Wager... I suggest you look at this. Those are the religions you're not following. How do you know you got the right one?

call it a hunch...I've always been really good at those. My hunch is stronger than ever. Opposition must strengthen...that's kinda strange, but what isn't?

[One Above All]

call it a hunch...I've always been really good at those. My hunch is stronger than ever. Opposition must strengthen...that's kinda strange, but what isn't?

I thought you didn't like to take a gamble. It's always nice to see people contradict themselves.

[helenecombs]

I am kind of amazed at how science is willing to do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures and in some cases humans all in the name of science and of all things: helping humans. 

Heh - and, of course, religion has NEVER done anything atrocious to human beings.  Nor, indeed, do people continue to do terrible things to other humans on a dailt basis because of their religion.

this is true. I don't really have a response for that except to say that we humans tend to not have near the integrity that we should.

[Anfauglir]

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

We get this claim all the time, yet no theist seems to be willing (or able) to present evidence. Care to show it?

I think that it's kind of ironic though that evidence has in many cases not had any effect on someone's beliefs......

Tell you what - why not let US decide if your claims of "evidence" are enough to change our beliefs?  You've said quite clearly that science has "firthered the proof of a creator", and we have challenged you to back up your words.

I like, BTW, the way you hedge your bets by talking about "proof of a creator", instead of "proof of the god of the Bible".

[helenecombs]

call it a hunch...I've always been really good at those. My hunch is stronger than ever. Opposition must strengthen...that's kinda strange, but what isn't?

I thought you didn't like to take a gamble. It's always nice to see people contradict themselves.

talking people in circles is nice but ineffective..at least with me.

[One Above All]

talking people in circles is nice but ineffective..at least with me.

If that's your attempt at a dodge, it's a poor one, because it's just you rambling about something I didn't ask about.

[Astreja]

this is true. I don't really have a response for that except to say that we humans tend to not have near the integrity that we should.

Helene, "the integrity that we should {have}" is a pretty nebulous concept that isn't all that useful in the real world.  I don't think there's a gold standard for integrity, aside from trying to do the right thing, and owning up to and fixing our mistakes.  We certainly do not require perfection in such a thing.

[helenecombs]

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

We get this claim all the time, yet no theist seems to be willing (or able) to present evidence. Care to show it?

I think that it's kind of ironic though that evidence has in many cases not had any effect on someone's beliefs......

Tell you what - why not let US decide if your claims of "evidence" are enough to change our beliefs?  You've said quite clearly that science has "firthered the proof of a creator", and we have challenged you to back up your words.

I like, BTW, the way you hedge your bets by talking about "proof of a creator", instead of "proof of the god of the Bible".

supposed evidence. My point being that evidence doesn't seem to impact core belief. That's all.  There is one God who is above all the others. And, sadly for some, he is undefeatable, he's just more patient than he should be.  When push comes to shove, I don't think many will appreciate it when he does make his move.

I'm joinin' the ranks of the heavyweights, but you guys are sweet. be good

[Astreja]

There is one God who is above all the others. And, sadly for some, he is undefeatable, he's just more patient than he should be.  When push comes to shove, I don't think many will appreciate it when he does make his move.

Evidence, please?

[C]

supposed evidence. My point being that evidence doesn't seem to impact core belief. That's all. There is one God who is above all the others. And, sadly for some, he is undefeatable, he's just more patient than he should be.  When push comes to shove, I don't think many will appreciate it when he does make his move.

Still no evidence. Bordering preaching/asserting own interpretations.

Uh, okay. Ignoring my post and others' questions/statements such as:

What You Said:

And then there were those who had little if any miracles and they were willing to be killed for what they believe. I suppose it is really subjective whatever we choose to believe.

What I Pointed Out:

I suppose suicide bombers who kill themselves and others are then correct about Mohammed being the one and only true last Prophet of God and that Jesus was simply another prophet.

I am also willing to die for Odin, does that make Odin real? Your God promised that the wicked will be punished. But guess what? They aren't. They haven't been for quite a while. Odin? He promised to kill all the ice giants.

Do YOU see any ice giants?

I'm joinin' the ranks of the heavyweights, but you guys are sweet. be good

Um..okay? Disappointing but sure. Move on then.

[One Above All]

I'm joinin' the ranks of the heavyweights, but you guys are sweet. be good

Am I the only one who reads this and thinks what she means is "I'm a coward"?

[helenecombs]

this is true. I don't really have a response for that except to say that we humans tend to not have near the integrity that we should.

Helene, "the integrity that we should {have}" is a pretty nebulous concept that isn't all that useful in the real world.  I don't think there's a gold standard for integrity, aside from trying to do the right thing, and owning up to and fixing our mistakes.  We certainly do not require perfection in such a thing.

I see your point to a degree.

Some things can't be fixed. The real world is all we have. It's the training ground. Where else could we have integrity if not with those around us.  It does take courage, so I can see why many want it gone.

[helenecombs]

I'm joinin' the ranks of the heavyweights, but you guys are sweet. be good

Am I the only one who reads this and thinks what she means is "I'm a coward"?

  that's really funny for some reason. i guess i'm just weird.  the really comical thing is that my g-som is sittin' on my lap 7 get this, he's laughin too & he duhdin' even no why. love it.

[One Above All]

that's really funny for some reason. i guess i'm just weird.  the really comical thing is that my g-som is sittin' on my lap 7 get this, he's laughin too & he duhdin' even no why. love it.

Ma'am, I'm afraid you're having a stroke. I suggest you call an ambulance. I believe the number to dial is "911".
Either that or you're just retarded.

[C]

How ironic the Emergency Room is not intended for these occasions.

[Astreja]

Some things can't be fixed.

However, most things can be fixed.  I am absolutely appalled that when religion held the upper hand in society, it regularly and systematically made life a living hell for anyone who didn't play along.

One would think and hope that if there were a real god at the helm, it would have come down bloody hard on the people and organizations abusing other people in its "holy" name.  It did not.

It was woefully absent when My own ancestors were being bullied at swordpoint into conversion (as the village shamans were burned alive in their own houses).  It was a complete and utter no-show during the witch trials.  I'm quite inclined to think that it's unable to act; unwilling to act; thrives on suffering; or simply does not exist.

Religion, which claims to hold the moral high ground, has no excuses for the violence and mayhem that has been committed in its name.  None.  Absolutely none.

The real world is all we have. It's the training ground.

This is a self-contradicting statement.  Pick one or the other.

Where else could we have integrity if not with those around us.  It does take courage, so I can see why many want it gone.

That's a rather bleak view of humanity, in My opinion.  I see far more good than bad in this world, and feel that the average person would prefer to have integrity.  Who are this "many" that you're referencing?

Am I the only one who reads this and thinks what she means is "I'm a coward"?

I'm reading it as "I know I don't have any empirical evidence that will convince these lost souls, but my beliefs compel me to open my mouth and annoy these people so I can get another punch on my 'buy 9 heavenly crowns, get 1 free' card."

[helenecombs]

supposed evidence. My point being that evidence doesn't seem to impact core belief. That's all. There is one God who is above all the others. And, sadly for some, he is undefeatable, he's just more patient than he should be.  When push comes to shove, I don't think many will appreciate it when he does make his move.

Still no evidence. Bordering preaching/asserting own interpretations.

Uh, okay. Ignoring my post and others' questions/statements such as:

What You Said:

And then there were those who had little if any miracles and they were willing to be killed for what they believe. I suppose it is really subjective whatever we choose to believe.

What I Pointed Out:

I suppose suicide bombers who kill themselves and others are then correct about Mohammed being the one and only true last Prophet of God and that Jesus was simply another prophet.

I am also willing to die for Odin, does that make Odin real? Your God promised that the wicked will be punished. But guess what? They aren't. They haven't been for quite a while. Odin? He promised to kill all the ice giants.

Do YOU see any ice giants?

I'm joinin' the ranks of the heavyweights, but you guys are sweet. be good

Um..okay? Disappointing but sure. Move on then.

nice dodge.
didnt say suicide, said murdered for speaking. 2 dif things.

not friends with odin, but whatev

I no what he promised. It is discouraging sometimes, but if he says he's gonna kick some ass for not treatin' the powerless with dignity, he will come through.  I don't no why he gave us so much power and responsibility. I look at it and think, you know,"bad call", but I guess he has faith in us. We are the evidence of Him. We are in ways makin' him look pretty bad, but i hope he knows what the hell he's doin'. I believe he does.yahhhhh

[One Above All]

After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

[helenecombs]

Some things can't be fixed.

However, most things can be fixed.  I am absolutely appalled that when religion held the upper hand in society, it regularly and systematically made life a living hell for anyone who didn't play along.

One would think and hope that if there were a real god at the helm, it would have come down bloody hard on the people and organizations abusing other people in its "holy" name.  It did not.

It was woefully absent when My own ancestors were being bullied at swordpoint into conversion (as the village shamans were burned alive in their own houses).  It was a complete and utter no-show during the witch trials.  I'm quite inclined to think that it's unable to act; unwilling to act; thrives on suffering; or simply does not exist.

Religion, which claims to hold the moral high ground, has no excuses for the violence and mayhem that has been committed in its name.  None.  Absolutely none.

The real world is all we have. It's the training ground.

This is a self-contradicting statement.  Pick one or the other.

Where else could we have integrity if not with those around us.  It does take courage, so I can see why many want it gone.

That's a rather bleak view of humanity, in My opinion.  I see far more good than bad in this world, and feel that the average person would prefer to have integrity.  Who are this "many" that you're referencing?

Am I the only one who reads this and thinks what she means is "I'm a coward"?

I'm reading it as "I know I don't have any empirical evidence that will convince these lost souls, but my beliefs compel me to open my mouth and annoy these people so I can get another punch on my 'buy 9 heavenly crowns, get 1 free' card."

Even if I had all th eemperical evidence in the world, it would fall on deaf ears. this isn't nineveh. I stillwill write my stuff, but it won't matter. I really gotta love on my family.. take care.

[Astreja]

Even if I had all th eemperical evidence in the world, it would fall on deaf ears. this isn't nineveh. I stillwill write my stuff, but it won't matter.

Unsupported, slanderous assertion.  Reported for preaching and trolling.

(Springy G recuses Herself from the thread and leaves this dog's breakfast to the moderators)

[helenecombs]

After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

I see that you guys attack and troll. this is your thing. this is all you have...hurting struggling christians. everyone struggles. that doesn't disprove God. Here's a word for ya: "you don't win, i've seen the end of the movie. put that in your pipe and smoke it."

[helenecombs]

Even if I had all th eemperical evidence in the world, it would fall on deaf ears. this isn't nineveh. I stillwill write my stuff, but it won't matter.

Unsupported, slanderous assertion.  Reported for preaching and trolling.

(Springy G recuses Herself from the thread and leaves this dog's breakfast to the moderators)

U would have made an excellent pharisee. lose the arguement...kill the messenger...lovely. keep that up.  it seems to be working for ya. not

[helenecombs]

After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

sad..so sad

[C]

After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

Troll or not, it's still going to be entertaining.

nice dodge.

Aww, mimicking. How adorable.

didnt say suicide, said murdered for speaking. 2 dif things.

Completely the same shit, trollilocks. If you're willing to be killed for your religion, then you might as well be killed in the act of aggressively defending your religion against whoever you think is your enemy that's suppressing you.

not friends with odin, but whatev

Point still stands. Odin's real because there are no ice giants. Jesus? No results. I'm sorry that your religion is a complete failure.

I no what he promised. It is discouraging sometimes, but if he says he's gonna kick some ass for not treatin' the powerless with dignity, he will come through.

Been almost 2,000 years of digging in shit mate. Might as well call it a day.

I don't no why he gave us so much power and responsibility.

Why a "he"? Again, no evidence on your silly claim of a god bestowing the very power that could make us think it doesn't exist.

I look at it and think, you know,"bad call", but I guess he has faith in us.

Yawn.

We are the evidence of Him. We are in ways makin' him look pretty bad, but i hope he knows what the hell he's doin'. I believe he does.yahhhhh

Harry Potter books are the evidence of Harry Potter. Umad?

Yeeeeeeaaaaah.

Even if I had all th eemperical evidence in the world, it would fall on deaf ears. this isn't nineveh. I stillwill write my stuff, but it won't matter. I really gotta love on my family.. take care.

Poor shit of an excuse. And I fear for your family's safety, but if you were unfortunately raised this way, oh well.

I see that you guys attack and troll. this is your thing. this is all you have...hurting struggling christians.

Ooooh boo hoo, I'm a poor Christian part of the majority that doesn't get what it wants all the time. Poor fucking you.

everyone struggles.

You don't even know what struggling means. Just get off your ass and take care of whatever family you have left.

that doesn't disprove God. Here's a word for ya: "you don't win, i've seen the end of the movie. put that in your pipe and smoke it."

That was two poorly written sentences. Not a word. Good try though.

[helenecombs]

After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

sad..so sad

don't let me keep you from spiritually abusing people. I'm no one important like a moderator or whatev what I say shouldnt matter. Right?

[Azdgari]

What argument?

If at some point you present a coherent argument, it will surely receive responses.

Given, however, that you are preaching and trolling, and that you agreed not to engage in those activities when you agreed to join the rules of the forum, how do you think that you should be treated?

[helenecombs]

After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

Troll or not, it's still going to be entertaining.

nice dodge.

Aww, mimicking. How adorable.

didnt say suicide, said murdered for speaking. 2 dif things.

tell yourself whatever you need to to continue your life if thats what ya wanta call it.

Completely the same shit, trollilocks. If you're willing to be killed for your religion, then you might as well be killed in the act of aggressively defending your religion against whoever you think is your enemy that's suppressing you.

not friends with odin, but whatev

Point still stands. Odin's real because there are no ice giants. Jesus? No results. I'm sorry that your religion is a complete failure.

I no what he promised. It is discouraging sometimes, but if he says he's gonna kick some ass for not treatin' the powerless with dignity, he will come through.

Been almost 2,000 years of digging in shit mate. Might as well call it a day.

I don't no why he gave us so much power and responsibility.

Why a "he"? Again, no evidence on your silly claim of a god bestowing the very power that could make us think it doesn't exist.

I look at it and think, you know,"bad call", but I guess he has faith in us.

Yawn.

We are the evidence of Him. We are in ways makin' him look pretty bad, but i hope he knows what the hell he's doin'. I believe he does.yahhhhh

Harry Potter books are the evidence of Harry Potter. Umad?

Yeeeeeeaaaaah.

Even if I had all th eemperical evidence in the world, it would fall on deaf ears. this isn't nineveh. I stillwill write my stuff, but it won't matter. I really gotta love on my family.. take care.

Poor shit of an excuse. And I fear for your family's safety, but if you were unfortunately raised this way, oh well.

I see that you guys attack and troll. this is your thing. this is all you have...hurting struggling christians.

Ooooh boo hoo, I'm a poor Christian part of the majority that doesn't get what it wants all the time. Poor fucking you.

everyone struggles.

You don't even know what struggling means. Just get off your ass and take care of whatever family you have left.

that doesn't disprove God. Here's a word for ya: "you don't win, i've seen the end of the movie. put that in your pipe and smoke it."

That was two poorly written sentences. Not a word. Good try though.

[C]

Guess which of them God seems to favor. 

[helenecombs]

After reading helenacombs' last post it is clear that this person is either a troll or just too stupid to discuss things. I'm not going to bother replying to any more posts. I suggest you guys/girls do the same.

Troll or not, it's still going to be entertaining.

nice dodge.

Aww, mimicking. How adorable.

didnt say suicide, said murdered for speaking. 2 dif things.

now you're demanding eloquence..love it

tell yourself whatever you need to to continue your life if thats what ya wanta call it.

Completely the same shit, trollilocks. If you're willing to be killed for your religion, then you might as well be killed in the act of aggressively defending your religion against whoever you think is your enemy that's suppressing you.

not friends with odin, but whatev

Point still stands. Odin's real because there are no ice giants. Jesus? No results. I'm sorry that your religion is a complete failure.

I no what he promised. It is discouraging sometimes, but if he says he's gonna kick some ass for not treatin' the powerless with dignity, he will come through.

Been almost 2,000 years of digging in shit mate. Might as well call it a day.

I don't no why he gave us so much power and responsibility.

Why a "he"? Again, no evidence on your silly claim of a god bestowing the very power that could make us think it doesn't exist.

I look at it and think, you know,"bad call", but I guess he has faith in us.

Yawn.

We are the evidence of Him. We are in ways makin' him look pretty bad, but i hope he knows what the hell he's doin'. I believe he does.yahhhhh

Harry Potter books are the evidence of Harry Potter. Umad?

Yeeeeeeaaaaah.

Even if I had all th eemperical evidence in the world, it would fall on deaf ears. this isn't nineveh. I stillwill write my stuff, but it won't matter. I really gotta love on my family.. take care.

Poor shit of an excuse. And I fear for your family's safety, but if you were unfortunately raised this way, oh well.

I see that you guys attack and troll. this is your thing. this is all you have...hurting struggling christians.

Ooooh boo hoo, I'm a poor Christian part of the majority that doesn't get what it wants all the time. Poor fucking you.

everyone struggles.

You don't even know what struggling means. Just get off your ass and take care of whatever family you have left.

that doesn't disprove God. Here's a word for ya: "you don't win, i've seen the end of the movie. put that in your pipe and smoke it."

That was two poorly written sentences. Not a word. Good try though.