Would science be more advanced if religion did not exist?

[grant]

ACTUALLY I VISITED A TEMPLE IN INDIA AND THERE IS A  800 YEAR OLD WALL  WHICH VIBRATES RIGOROUSLY
WHEN SOMEONE SITS ON IT.
OPEN CHALLENGE TO NON BELEIVERS

Have a look at this! Beats the hell out of a stupid old wall...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/__XCWUd8FFjQ/SkOyX_k1aSI/AAAAAAAAHS4/HmQf-bZijxE/s1600-h/AIdomesticviolence.jpg

Its amazing what technology can do!

[Samuelxcs]

There would certainly be more space for science if all those religious buildings are gone. Why build a church when people can build a rocket base?!

[violatedsmurf80]

Specifically, I was referring to Galen, who is also referred to as the father of modern surgery. But he marked the end of Western advancement in Medicine in the mid second century. Pretty much every advancement beyond Galen was copied from the Arabs until the 17th century, perhaps as late as the early 18th.

How so? They were not allowed to dissect human bodies. He was a very influential writer. Up until the muslims proved most of the writing fasle, but it was to be expected because they were not allow to dissect human bodies.

[Hatter23]

Specifically, I was referring to Galen, who is also referred to as the father of modern surgery. But he marked the end of Western advancement in Medicine in the mid second century. Pretty much every advancement beyond Galen was copied from the Arabs until the 17th century, perhaps as late as the early 18th.

How so? They were not allowed to dissect human bodies. He was a very influential writer. Up until the muslims proved most of the writing fasle, but it was to be expected because they were not allow to dissect human bodies.

First Galen was from a period that in some areas of the Roman empire, dissection was permitted, and Galen preformed surgery, eyen eye and brain surgery. He even had a limited idea of sepsis. But his advancement of medicine was the best the west did on its own from 150AD to 1700AD, all other advancements during that period were copied from the Arabs.

[relativetruth]

The key thing to acknowledge here is that science did progress in the 'middle ages' and this was
in spite of the religious connections that the scientists of the time had.

This is because science has checks and balances where religion just has 'faith'.

[Jontom10]

Hmm a vibrating wall when you sit on it.

God in his infinite wisdom has provided the Indian lady populace with a free to use sybian ?

[Azdgari]

To answer the OP, it would depend on how it is that religion was supposedly made to not exist.  Humans are predisposed to religious thinking.  This isn't an entirely bad thing, and if our religious predispositions were somehow removed, then what would replace their role in our psychology?

On the other hand, if religion's absence is being forced on humans, then what is the structure of this enforcement?  Is it just outward expression of religion that's forbidden, or are we being thought-controlled somehow?

And as a third option, if by "religion did not exist" the OP means that we've grown out of it as a species, then it's answering its own question because it describes a full species-history that does not exist.

[Historicity]

By the way the Muslims also created the first hospital which was taken back to Europe during the crusades.   

No.  The first hospitals in Europe were the temples of Asculepius.  During the transition from paganism to Christianity the Christians opened hospitals as an advertisement of their charity.  Christian missionaries like St. Walpurga brought Roman medicine to northern Europe to impress the barbarians.

Nurses were orders of volunteers, male and female, who took oaths of celibacy and poverty. 

If you pay attention you'll notice that the traditional nurse's uniform is derived from a nun's habit.  I was surprised watching a British film about a tuberculosis hospital in the 1950s that the nurses addressed the head nurse as "matron" and each other as "sister" -- just like nuns.

[Astreja]

ACTUALLY I VISITED A TEMPLE IN INDIA AND THERE IS A  800 YEAR OLD WALL  WHICH VIBRATES RIGOROUSLY WHEN SOMEONE SITS ON IT.

That isn't evidence for a god.  That's evidence for an unexplained physical phenomenon.

The logical next step is not to cry out "_______ exists! Praise ________!"  The next step is to begin a careful scientific investigation to determine why the wall is vibrating, not mindlessly attribute the phenomenon to an unverified entity.

[kardula]

yes, I believe that if we religious people were not so violent in our defense of our beliefs science would be further along. I don't think we'd be living on the moon, but I think we'd be more advanced in most sciences, escpecially sociology and psychology. If we didn't explain things that were abnormal as being "possesed by demons" we might have a clearer understanding of behaviors. I think the same thing may be said about medicine as well.

[Historicity]

From people of Brahmanic religion the answer is YES.

I've had that from a Hindu girl from India and an Indian writer.  India had in the BCE period the beginnings of a skeptical tradition and scientific philosophers speculating on the nature of atoms.  But this was cut by a religious tradition that the material world is a garbage heap and you should escape to to Nirvana.

For the Japanese Shintos there was a tradition that geometric proofs were a form of meditation.  A fine new proof or a really well painted version of an old one would be submitted by parishioners be they samurai or peasants. They would adorn the Shinto temples.  It was a geometric system that was an alternate to Euclidean.  Some of the theorems are hard to figure out without calculus.  Some showthe Japanese were about to discover the calculus.  After Westernization there was an attempt to teach both systems but it was too cumbersome and the native system was abandoned.  I read an article in Scientific American by someone who was trying to reconstruct it.

So the Japanese were not ignorant.

During the Westernization the Japanese wondered.  Japan was closed about 1600.  They could hardly believe how much the West had advanced in 250 years while they had stagnated.  How could this have happened.  Of course they rejected the racial theory.  One Japanese writer said there were 2 things in the West that made all the difference:  Skepticism, and human rights.

You had to be more or less dismissive of the supernatural to seek out scientific answers and you had to have the right to stand up to the majority belief and say, Sacred tradition, scholars of the past, and all of you are wrong and I can prove it, without getting your head chopped off.

The Japanese also noticed another phenomenon.  In a highly religious society intellectual advancement is advancement in religion.  Adults tell a bright young boy, you're so smart that you should be -- a priest!  Thus religion produces a brain drain of the brightest away from researching reality into metaphysics and apologetics.

[helenecombs]

Not really having the time to read all of the replies, I am just noting my thoughts and experiences on the topic. So if something I say has been said in by another or in another thread I am not being lazy. I am just super busy with everyday life. 

I am kind of amazed at how science is willing to do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures and in some cases humans all in the name of science and of all things: helping humans.  Unfortunately, I think without the bottomless rage of the oft self-righteous, Hitler's deeds would pail in comparison to what could be rationalized by the scientific community.
 
We would probably be surprised at the absolute lack of concern for others we would all witness if religion as a general rule didn't get in the way. And the day is coming that they will succeed in silencing their influence in the arena of politics.

They discover so many ways to help and yet society makes up for the gain in life by increasing the death toll by other means: atmospheric pollutants, no regulation on big business and it's self-serving agendas. Unbelievably bad. It's like watching a really bad movie play out before your very eyes.

[Anfauglir]

I am kind of amazed at how science is willing to do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures and in some cases humans all in the name of science and of all things: helping humans. 

Heh - and, of course, religion has NEVER done anything atrocious to human beings.  Nor, indeed, do people continue to do terrible things to other humans on a dailt basis because of their religion.

[C]

I am kind of amazed at how science is willing to do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures and in some cases humans all in the name of science and of all things: helping humans.  Unfortunately, I think without the bottomless rage of the oft self-righteous, Hitler's deeds would pail in comparison to what could be rationalized by the scientific community.

What? What science has ever been willing to, in your own words, "do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures" in the name of science and helping humans? Are you referring to dissections? Vivisections? Lab experiments?

Let's see what Christianity has done, all without the interference of Jebus and the so called loving God:

The burning of pagan temples and destruction of various cultures by Christians during the Roman Empire's time.

Thousands of Hussites slain in the 15h century by Christians crusaders.

Other Crusades.

Spanish Inquisition.

20,000 Huguenots killed because Pope Pius V wanted them dead.

Gaspard de Coligny is torn apart, literally, his limbs severed along with his head and genitals then dumped repeatedly into a river and then fed to animals by Catholics.

The Troubles in Ireland where Catholics and Protestants came into conflict.

Jewish synagogues burnt down accompanied by massacres of Jews throughout Europe from the 4th century up through the year 1648 when 200,000 Jews were killed by Christians systematically in Poland.

Carried out mass genocides of the natives of Americas for country and God accompanied by the destruction of their cultures and ultimate conversion of the natives to the faith.

Witch hunts and fraud trials where dozens died.

Involvement in the Rwandan massacres.

The sexual abuse of children in various parts of the world.

Slave trading and the claim of slavery being what "God wanted" due to to a shit ton of verses in the Bible that approve of slavery (also formed one of the arguments made by the Southern states right before the U.S. Civil War)

Refusal to treat patients, who'd later die (some were children) medically in many cases instead resorting to "faith" and "healing".

Contributing to the white man's burden and imperialistic endeavors. (You can see the results in Nigeria nowadays where Muslims and Christians keep killing each other, thanks for that!).

Persecution of intellectuals, artists and so called "heretics" such as Galileo for being right about the Earth orbiting the Sun.

Fatal exorcisms carried out by idiotic priests.

A false sense of security in the face of danger (the Bible is NOT a magical force field generating book).

In some parts of the world, female "circumcision". Or rather genital mutilation.

Encouraging people to be as stupid and lazy as they can be (Creationism and so forth).

Not condoning the use of condoms (leading to the further dissemination of...AIDS! You guessed it!), other forms of birth control and demonizing abortion.

Convincing first class fanatics to carry out shootings in the name of their God.

Hundreds of years of misogyny and homophobia.


Let's look at what science has done:

Cured/eradicated diseases.

Further advanced exploration on the Last Frontier.

Made your life convenient.

Potentially prolonged your life.

Developed better medicines.

Cleaning dirty water.

Improved surgery.

Created different ways of faster and more efficient communication.

A usable form of electricity.

Better architecture.

Improved living standards.

Cleaner or better energy sources.

Better hygiene

Made crops to grow more easily leading to better harvests.

Found ways to make food last longer so they can get to the locations of a food crisis.

Made transportation safer and better.

Developed and invented numerous things that you use in your daily life.

Made us smarter undoubtedly.

Provided a way out of dogmatic religion for some.

Need I go on?

[helenecombs]

when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one. I have to say that those who fall for that one have a tremendous ability to have faith in something less provable and less likely than god.

[C]

Oh Gods, what holes are there in the Theory of Evolution in your opinion and if you really do think so, do you have evidence to support your claim?

P.S.: The Theory of Evolution is not a cult/religion and does not require "faith". This applies to all science and atheism.

Thank You.

[One Above All]

when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution intelligent design...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one.

I fixed that for you.

[helenecombs]

I am kind of amazed at how science is willing to do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures and in some cases humans all in the name of science and of all things: helping humans.  Unfortunately, I think without the bottomless rage of the oft self-righteous, Hitler's deeds would pail in comparison to what could be rationalized by the scientific community.

What? What science has ever been willing to, in your own words, "do the most atrocious and heinous things to creatures" in the name of science and helping humans? Are you referring to dissections? Vivisections? Lab experiments?

Let's see what Christianity has done, all without the interference of Jebus and the so called loving God:

They weren't following the teachings of Christianity. They did all of that on their own.  It's sad, but it's over. Science is great unless your a rat, or monkey or dog or a person without power, then it's prolly not so much.  as long as it's on your side, you'll most likely love it. 

The burning of pagan temples and destruction of various cultures by Christians during the Roman Empire's time.

Thousands of Hussites slain in the 15h century by Christians crusaders.

Other Crusades.

Spanish Inquisition.

20,000 Huguenots killed because Pope Pius V wanted them dead.

Gaspard de Coligny is torn apart, literally, his limbs severed along with his head and genitals then dumped repeatedly into a river and then fed to animals by Catholics.

The Troubles in Ireland where Catholics and Protestants came into conflict.

Jewish synagogues burnt down accompanied by massacres of Jews throughout Europe from the 4th century up through the year 1648 when 200,000 Jews were killed by Christians systematically in Poland.

Carried out mass genocides of the natives of Americas for country and God accompanied by the destruction of their cultures and ultimate conversion of the natives to the faith.

Witch hunts and fraud trials where dozens died.

Involvement in the Rwandan massacres.

The sexual abuse of children in various parts of the world.

Slave trading and the claim of slavery being what "God wanted" due to to a shit ton of verses in the Bible that approve of slavery (also formed one of the arguments made by the Southern states right before the U.S. Civil War)

Refusal to treat patients, who'd later die (some were children) medically in many cases instead resorting to "faith" and "healing".

Contributing to the white man's burden and imperialistic endeavors. (You can see the results in Nigeria nowadays where Muslims and Christians keep killing each other, thanks for that!).

Persecution of intellectuals, artists and so called "heretics" such as Galileo for being right about the Earth orbiting the Sun.

Fatal exorcisms carried out by idiotic priests.

A false sense of security in the face of danger (the Bible is NOT a magical force field generating book).

In some parts of the world, female "circumcision". Or rather genital mutilation.

Encouraging people to be as stupid and lazy as they can be (Creationism and so forth).

Not condoning the use of condoms (leading to the further dissemination of...AIDS! You guessed it!), other forms of birth control and demonizing abortion.

Convincing first class fanatics to carry out shootings in the name of their God.

Hundreds of years of misogyny and homophobia.


Let's look at what science has done:

Cured/eradicated diseases.

Further advanced exploration on the Last Frontier.

Made your life convenient.

Potentially prolonged your life.

Developed better medicines.

Cleaning dirty water.

Improved surgery.

Created different ways of faster and more efficient communication.

A usable form of electricity.

Better architecture.

Improved living standards.

Cleaner or better energy sources.

Better hygiene

Made crops to grow more easily leading to better harvests.

Found ways to make food last longer so they can get to the locations of a food crisis.

Made transportation safer and better.

Developed and invented numerous things that you use in your daily life.

Made us smarter undoubtedly.

Provided a way out of dogmatic religion for some.

Need I go on?

[helenecombs]

Education and science should be religions death nail. Not only would science be far more advanced but so would our social culture as a whole. There would be less prejedice based on others rituals due to their own creation myths. 

I generally find the more educated a person is the more likely they're not sold on any creation myths due to a god enitity. And I think even if people are educated and hold a religous belief it seems to be always tied to some sort of self motivation for it being monetary (the reap some sort of profit for promoting it) or emotional gain ... 

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

[One Above All]

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

We get this claim all the time, yet no theist seems to be willing (or able) to present evidence. Care to show it?

[helenecombs]

when I get a piece of swiss cheese out of the fridge, I automatically think of evolution intelligent design...the swiss cheese theory...cause it's shot full of holes. I suppose delusional thinking exists in all religions..even that one.

I fixed that for you.

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

--in spite of me

[C]

Helene, though I'm not a moderator, I am required by the State of Greenland to show you the following link:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,4259.0.html

The link shows you how to properly quote others' posts and cleanly answer in your words.

I did manage to pick out your own words though this time:

They weren't following the teachings of Christianity. They did all of that on their own.  It's sad, but it's over. Science is great unless your a rat, or monkey or dog or a person without power, then it's prolly not so much.  as long as it's on your side, you'll most likely love it.

They did all that BASED on the Bible. Which happens to include the excluding of women from voting, working in equal conditions, teaching along with the owning of slaves and so much more.

It's NOT over, not even close. A lot of those things I listed are ongoing right now. I forgot to add one thing though: the discrimination of non-believers including atheists.

Here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20502.0.html

(Direct Threats of Rape and Murder From Christians to Atheists)

[One Above All]

You had to actually change what was there to do it.

Duh, that's how you fix something. You have to take out what's wrong and replace it with what's right.

The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.

My non-existent rage! I'm probably possessed or something.

Maybe you should check your own rules...

The rules of this website say nothing about my non-existent rage, nor do my own personal laws.

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

The main religion on this site is christianity. Your post is illogical.

EDIT: inb4helenecombsisactuallySK/John3:16

[C]

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

Science, knowledge, education and thinking have NOT furthered the proof of a Christian God. It has actually distanced society further away from such a vile diety. You need to look no further than this forum, which is full of FORMER Christians who spent much of their lives just like you, praying earnestly and believing with a tremendous amount of faith.

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

Please refrain from preaching. You are very close to it.

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

? You're not making much sense.

[helenecombs]

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

We get this claim all the time, yet no theist seems to be willing (or able) to present evidence. Care to show it?

My post was erased so I'm gettin' that back together.  I think that it's kind of ironic though that evidence has in many cases not had any effect on someone's beliefs: lucifer was apparently in the very presence of the 'Big Guy' and according to the story, he decided God wasn't all the hype, those guys in the wilderness; miracle after miracle and nothing, many examples of supposed miracles that produced nothing in the observer.  And then there were those who had little if any miracles and they were willing to be killed for what they believe. I suppose it is really subjective whatever we choose to believe. 

Personally, I'm not much for taking a gamble when I don't perceive it as a sure thing. Again, subjective.  Does being bullied and called delusional offend me.  Maybe..on a bad day.

After taking a look at all of the opposition out here in the world, I'm actually encouraged. It's not that bad. My thesis should go well. After my testimony, I'll have to go, but I really have enjoyed your guys' company. I'll miss you..

[helenecombs]

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

Science, knowledge, education and thinking have NOT furthered the proof of a Christian God. It has actually distanced society further away from such a vile diety. You need to look no further than this forum, which is full of FORMER Christians who spent much of their lives just like you, praying earnestly and believing with a tremendous amount of faith.

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

Just saying that I've observed that Pharisees of a sort seeme to exist in every religion including evolution, etc. that's all. Not tryin' to ruffle feathers just responding to things as I'm hit. Take care and I hope all goes well with ya.

Please refrain from preaching. You are very close to it.

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

? You're not making much sense.

[One Above All]

My post was erased so I'm gettin' that back together.  I think that it's kind of ironic though that evidence has in many cases not had any effect on someone's beliefs: lucifer was apparently in the very presence of the 'Big Guy' and according to the story, he decided God wasn't all the hype, those guys in the wilderness; miracle after miracle and nothing, many examples of supposed miracles that produced nothing in the observer.  And then there were those who had little if any miracles and they were willing to be killed for what they believe. I suppose it is really subjective whatever we choose to believe. 

First of all, Lucifer is an adjective used to refer to a king who wanted to be better than your god and Jesus himself. It is not the name of Satan. Second - we don't choose what to believe in. That's why I'm asking for evidence instead of just believing in you.

Personally, I'm not much for taking a gamble when I don't perceive it as a sure thing. Again, subjective.  Does being bullied and called delusional offend me.  Maybe..on a bad day.

Pascal's Wager... I suggest you look at this. Those are the religions you're not following. How do you know you got the right one?

[helenecombs]

Actually science and education have furthered the proof of a Creator. Some just don't like the news.  Sorry that one doesn't hold water.

Science, knowledge, education and thinking have NOT furthered the proof of a Christian God. It has actually distanced society further away from such a vile diety. You need to look no further than this forum, which is full of FORMER Christians who spent much of their lives just like you, praying earnestly and believing with a tremendous amount of faith.

You had to actually change what was there to do it.  The rage..very strong in you.  Not sure it's of human origin.  Maybe you should check your own rules...

Please refrain from preaching. You are very close to it.

I suppose Jesus was capable of blowing off the religious toupees of any religion he encountered, even the ones on this site.  That's what I love about God.

? You're not making much sense.

you said that you fixed that for me and I stated that in order to fix that, you had to change what I wrote. That's all. 

[C]

I think that it's kind of ironic though that evidence has in many cases not had any effect on someone's beliefs:

The only evidence we've been provided by mainly Christian theists have been verses from the Bible, their own assertions/interpretations of God/Bible and a very skewed scientific argument based on the Creationist premise of the Theory of Evolution because the very premise of the Creationist argument depends on how badly they misinterpret the actual Theory of Evolution.

lucifer was apparently in the very presence of the 'Big Guy'

Where did you get this idea?

and according to the story, he decided God wasn't all the hype, those guys in the wilderness; miracle after miracle and nothing, many examples of supposed miracles that produced nothing in the observer.

What miracles? What loving God? Do you read the news? Have you even seen actual suffering with your own eyes? Have you ever smelled death? Have you ever handled dying children?

And then there were those who had little if any miracles and they were willing to be killed for what they believe. I suppose it is really subjective whatever we choose to believe.

I suppose suicide bombers who kill themselves and others are then correct about Mohammed being the one and only true last Prophet of God and that Jesus was simply another prophet.

I am also willing to die for Odin, does that make Odin real? Your God promised that the wicked will be punished. But guess what? They aren't. They haven't been for quite a while. Odin? He promised to kill all the ice giants.

Do YOU see any ice giants?

Personally, I'm not much for taking a gamble when I don't perceive it as a sure thing. Again, subjective.  Does being bullied and called delusional offend me.  Maybe..on a bad day.

I did not call you delusional, because I am simply waiting for you to give actual evidence. Perhaps others may have simply because you inserted "God" in there as being "intelligent" when we all have experienced none of that.

And Pascal's Wager is stupid. Really.

After taking a look at all of the opposition out here in the world, I'm actually encouraged. It's not that bad. My thesis should go well. After my testimony, I'll have to go, but I really have enjoyed your guys' company. I'll miss you..

Running away?