Author Topic: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?  (Read 9019 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #232 on: October 12, 2011, 08:26:54 AM »
Jessica Simpson before she got fat 

Hey, some of us here like that she's got some extra pudding to shake ;)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:22:55 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Chronos

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #233 on: October 12, 2011, 08:30:10 AM »
In response to the OP ...  (1) remove the tax-free status of religion, requiring religious organizations to pay taxes on monies they receive and (2) require that religious leaders provide disclaimers/warnings about their products (words, actions, prayer) that they have not been approved by the FTC, have not been proven to provide efficacy and may be contraindicated in certain circumstances (much like pharmaceutical companies, alcohol products, tobacco products, lawn mowers, hair dryers, etc).

Think about it. If a preacher had to provide a disclaimer during every church service, if every bible or spiritual work had a notice on it ... people would probably give less and less money to religion. "Ma'am, that you for your donation to the Christian Hotline. I am required to notify you that your donation may not reach god and god may not answer your prayer requests and there is no proof that god has ever answered any prayers or that god actually exists."   WHAAA?

Don Lapre had the right business model, he was just working the wrong gig.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #234 on: October 12, 2011, 09:37:28 AM »
I'm not sure how you're reading this quote and I'll admit, it's not for everybody, especially atheists. But, imagine this . . . Many theists live their life only ever knowing the traditional story of biblegod. They think that they are sinners and their entire life's purpose is to cleanse themself of that sin so they can one day enter the pearly gates of heaven or be damned for all eternity to the fires of hell. This is truly what they believe.
Yep.  That’s what “god” supposedly said in the first place.  Gee, did he mumble?
Quote
Now, someone comes along and tells them that they heard God tell them something extraordinary, that there IS no way to get INTO the Kindom of God because you're already there! You have been and always will BE in the Kindom of God.
Do you know what this can do to the Christian faith if they simply turn that belief around?
Yep, make more and more Christians making up their own god, all sure that their god is the one “talking” to them.
Quote
What about the Muslims? Don't you think this is an extraordinary statement when put into that perspective? It's not a statement meant to convert atheists into believing in God. It's a statement that frees the "indoctrinated" from a life of servitude into a life they can start to live.
  Golly, intentional lies to get more people for your team by creating a new religion and calling it an old name.  What a good idea!  And that’s what has happened for the last several millennia. Nothing new here, just more idiotic humans. 
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #235 on: October 12, 2011, 03:50:51 PM »
Here's the difference. When October 11, 2012 rolls around, I'll know if the number were correct or not. As far as death, there will be no knowing who's right or wrong, so then it comes down to what I choose to believe. Therefore, I'd rather believe NDW's version of what happens after death than the current atheist stance that it all ends. It simply feels MUCH better to me, and it doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong. Why go through life with the added emptiness of there being nothing when life ends? I'd much rather believe that when it ends, it's the beginning of another fantastic voyage! And guess what? I'm going to be right, because if this is what I believe in my dying breath, it will go with my last bit of earthly consciousness. I'll be in this place because that's what I believe will happen! So, in my own mind, I'll be good.

If that's your choice, then so be it.  As long as you and I both know that it's not something that has any basis in reality.  I have to ask you though... where do you stop?  Do you discount anything about the world that doesn't make you feel good?  Do you only believe what makes you feel good? 

It's like a pastor said at a sermon: Death is just like going through a door. You don't know what's on the other side, but why be afraid of it? Why not go through that door with excitement and wonder knowing that you're going on to your next adventure, your next higher self. I much prefer this notion to the door that leads to nowhere.

We don't know what happens after you die.  It could be a great new adventure.  It could be nothing.  It could be sucky.  You can still hold out the hope that death leads to something new as an atheist.  It's just as likely (or unlikely) as anything else.  In other words, you can prefer to think you know what's inside the box if you want, but that doesn't make it true. 


I'm not sure how you're reading this quote and I'll admit, it's not for everybody, especially atheists. But, imagine this . . .

Many theists live their life only ever knowing the traditional story of biblegod. They think that they are sinners and their entire life's purpose is to cleanse themself of that sin so they can one day enter the pearly gates of heaven or be damned for all eternity to the fires of hell. This is truly what they believe.

Now, someone comes along and tells them that they heard God tell them something extraordinary, that there IS no way to get INTO the Kindom of God because you're already there! You have been and always will BE in the Kindom of God.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  You take an old understanding and make it new... it feels good and suddenly everything is good with the world.  You don't care about truth YY.  This is not based on reality.  That's what the problem is.  Anyone can say this shit.  Anyone can make up whatever they want.  Why not make up the most incredible egocentric viewpoint that ever was and market THAT as the truth?  Why not just say that humans are the entire purpose of the universe and that a super special powerful being created us as the only important things ever!  Oh wait... that's already been done. 

Where is your respect for the truth?  Your belief system is not respectable at all. 

Do you know what this can do to the Christian faith if they simply turn that belief around? What about the Muslims? Don't you think this is an extraordinary statement when put into that perspective? It's not a statement meant to convert atheists into believing in God. It's a statement that frees the "indoctrinated" from a life of servitude into a life they can start to live.

Atheism also frees the indoctrinated people from a life of servitude into a life they can start to live.  And as a little side benefit, it's the truth. 

Yours is the life of a drunkard, YY.  Have you heard the quote by G.B. Shaw?  "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one."  You've drunk the cool aid. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Alzael

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #236 on: October 12, 2011, 04:11:46 PM »
My definition of God is valid to myself and anyone else who agrees. Yes, something is real to me and not to others. This is because we don't agree on what is real


Then I'll ask again the same question that I've been waiting for an answer for and that you still cower away from.

What separates your beliefs from those of a lunatic?

So why do you post here if you want to believe in the happy happy hereafter, regardless of their being no facts to support that?

I've asked this a lot too.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 04:23:09 PM by Alzael »
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Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #237 on: October 12, 2011, 05:31:51 PM »
where do you stop?  Do you discount anything about the world that doesn't make you feel good?  Do you only believe what makes you feel good?

Well, I guess I stop when it becomes a negative effect on my life. I don't discount anything that doesn't make me feel good. I acknowledge and look for alternative solutions. I know there are things in the world that don't make me feel good, and I succumb to them at times. But, it doesn't help anybody to wollow in that mess.

You can still hold out the hope that death leads to something new as an atheist.

I've never heard this. I've only heard from atheists that our consciousness is due to our brain activity and when the brain dies, so does consciousness. Please expand on your hope of something new after death. I'd love to hear your thoughts.


It's just as likely (or unlikely) as anything else.  In other words, you can prefer to think you know what's inside the box if you want, but that doesn't make it true. 

absolutely right. It's a conscious choice on my part. I hope it's true.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  You take an old understanding and make it new... it feels good and suddenly everything is good with the world.

And seriously, what's wrong with having a new understanding of God? Who ever said the traditional understanding was correct? Isn't a new understanding better than the traditional biblegod? And, nobody said everything is now good with the world. It's just an "alternative" way to think about God.


Anyone can say this shit.

Agreed


Anyone can make up whatever they want.  Why not make up the most incredible egocentric viewpoint that ever was and market THAT as the truth?  Why not just say that humans are the entire purpose of the universe and that a super special powerful being created us as the only important things ever!  Oh wait... that's already been done. 

Where is your respect for the truth?  Your belief system is not respectable at all.
 

I'm sorry you feel that way. But I like my beliefs. They're mine and I'm not swayed by the alternative arguments.


Atheism also frees the indoctrinated people from a life of servitude into a life they can start to live.  And as a little side benefit, it's the truth. 

Yours is the life of a drunkard, YY.  Have you heard the quote by G.B. Shaw?  "The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact than a drunken man is happier than a sober one."  You've drunk the cool aid.

Yes, I have seen atheists on this board who have been "freed" from indoctrination so what you say is true. And I would never claim to be any happier than a skeptic. I can't judge their evaluation of their own quality of life. All I know is that I am happy and I like the way things are going. I think my beliefs have a lot to do with this happiness. I'm good.

Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #238 on: October 12, 2011, 06:02:05 PM »
Then I'll ask again the same question that I've been waiting for an answer for and that you still cower away from.

What separates your beliefs from those of a lunatic?

Please tell me what defines the beliefs of a lunatic. I will then answer your question.

Is it merely something that they believe that they spout? Or do they actually have to act on those beliefs? Are we talking full fledged lunatic or borderline? Must they actually break the law or do they just have to speak of breaking the law, and then, does that constitute them having a belief of breaking the law?

Please be specific.

Offline Alzael

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #239 on: October 12, 2011, 06:05:14 PM »
Then I'll ask again the same question that I've been waiting for an answer for and that you still cower away from.

What separates your beliefs from those of a lunatic?

Please tell me what defines the beliefs of a lunatic. I will then answer your question.

Is it merely something that they believe that they spout? Or do they actually have to act on those beliefs? Are we talking full fledged lunatic or borderline? Must they actually break the law or do they just have to speak of breaking the law, and then, does that constitute them having a belief of breaking the law?

Please be specific.

Please stop dodging. We've tread this ground before and you should be well aware of what is meant. Simply answer the questions posed for once.
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Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #240 on: October 12, 2011, 07:25:21 PM »
LUNATIC
1. an insane person.


- I'm in no way insane. I'm very normal

Quote
The word normal typically is defined as a behavior conforming with or constituting a norm or standard or level or type or social norm. So by this definition a normal person would be considered an individual who conforms to societal norms and standards. So typically a society will decide if a person is normal by whether or not they follow the rules that that given society uses to determine what is appropriate and inappropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. For example when a person decides to enter a sport that is not traditionally competed in by his or her sex, they are viewed as abnormal. Each society will set their own definition for what is a normal person.

I have very appropriate values. I've never been arrested. I have normal beliefs. My beliefs are with the majority in terms of being a theist. My attitudes and behaviors are fine. I am well liked. I have almost 1000 friends on facebook :)

2. a person whose actions and manner are marked by extreme eccentricity or recklessness.

- I am not reckless. I drive safely, getting a moving violation maybe once every 5 years. I don't hold my son over the edges of balconies. I've broken one bone in my body about 20 years ago. I don't injure others. Pretty standard stuff.

3. Law . a person legally declared to be of unsound mind and who therefore is not held capable or responsible before the law.

- Again, never been arrested. Noone in my family has been in jail. I'm pretty sure none of them have been arrested either, but you never know.

insane
1. not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged.


- My beliefs are quite sane. I have a full time job with a large corporation and have been employed since I graduated from college. I have no signs of mental derangement. I don't get depressed. I don't hear voices in my head. I know right from wrong.

2. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.

- I've never been in an insane asylum. I've never been accused of making insane actions.

3. utterly senseless: an insane plan.

- I have my senses about me. I don't have insane plans. My beliefs are doing just fine.


So, to sum it up I'm not a lunatic and my actions indicate that my beliefs are not those of a lunatic.


« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 07:39:41 PM by YY »

Offline dloubet

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #241 on: October 13, 2011, 08:20:16 AM »
Dodge complete! Well done!
Denis Loubet

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #242 on: October 13, 2011, 08:55:26 AM »
I'm sorry you feel that way. But I like my beliefs. They're mine and I'm not swayed by the alternative arguments.

I think this is a good sentence to start from on whether, yy, your beliefs are any different than a lunatic's, or perhaps I should say another theist's or someone who believes in other baseless claims. 

You say that you are not "swayed by the alternative arguments".  First, what would sway you?  Is there any evidence that would make you give up your beliefs?

Second, in that your claims have no evidence to support them, just like those who claim that there are reptiloids (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20171.msg447902.html#msg447902), why don't you beleive in reptiloids, or if you believe in those, something you don't believe in, be it leprechauns, dragons, teapots circling Alpha Centauri?  What makes those claims unbeleivable? 
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #243 on: October 13, 2011, 12:24:18 PM »
In my opinion, the best way to push a false belief system from being held my the majority to the minority is to present truth and facts. Their beliefs, the false ones, can for the most part be ignored and need not even be addressed as information about what is definate and true is brought to the forefront and into the collective focus of the masses.
So the first step to me is obvious, and that is to make facts known because many if not most, have no idea how much information is out there.

Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #244 on: October 13, 2011, 12:37:35 PM »
I'm sorry you feel that way. But I like my beliefs. They're mine and I'm not swayed by the alternative arguments.

I think this is a good sentence to start from on whether, yy, your beliefs are any different than a lunatic's, or perhaps I should say another theist's or someone who believes in other baseless claims. 

Sticking with the OP, let's look at it from an unbiased pov. Atheists number one argument against theists is to name call and belittle. Atheists offer no alternative to the benefits and fulfillment that God provides -- no matter what religion. Do you think there's any doubt as to why the vast majority of the people on earth believe in God? OK, so if you're an atheist, you get to be "sane", "real", and have your arguments backed by proof. Do you know what a theist has to give up? I'll just list a few - Universal connection, eternal bliss/life after death, an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving (in the theists mind) entity, opportunities for miracles, spiritual community. This is what I mean by not being swayed by the alternative arguments.


Second, in that your claims have no evidence to support them, just like those who claim that there are reptiloids (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20171.msg447902.html#msg447902), why don't you beleive in reptiloids, or if you believe in those, something you don't believe in, be it leprechauns, dragons, teapots circling Alpha Centauri?  What makes those claims unbeleivable? 

There is a guy at work that I've known for 10 years. He's a totally normal person. One day, we're talking about real estate and he says he owns property in New Mexico. I ask if he's ever seen a UFO. He says yah, lots. I try to clarify - "so you've seen blurry objects in the sky"? He says, "No, I've seen Pyramids 100 feet above me on my property rumbling the earth I was standing on". He then goes on to tell me that there are underground cities and aliens living amongst us and he's seen all of that. He has maps of these underground cities and has actually been shot at going into Govt. restricted areas. He's seen lizard people and knows that they actually eat humans - mostly homeless.

So, a guy I've known for 10 years opens up all of a sudden about all this alien stuff. I poke and prod and ask why he hasn't written books or exposed this and he says that the people who do are mysteriously missing or closely watched.

Do I believe him? Do I think he's a lunatic. Well, let's just say that I don't disbelieve him. He offered to show me around if I visit New Mexico. All I can say is, I'm open. I'd love to see this. So do I believe in teapots circling Alpha Centauri - no. I have a woo meter and there's a cutoff point. The claim becomes unbelieveable when there's enough evidence to support one way or another.

Let me ask you something. Who do you think was behind 9/11? What evidence do YOU believe?

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #245 on: October 13, 2011, 02:50:21 PM »
YY, I do enjoy how you make up even more false claims about what atheists do.  No, my, and if I may speak for all atheists, our number 1 argument is not to name call and belittle.  I am more than happy to give stacks of evidence.  You seem to want to consider that “name calling and belittling”, this daring to actually have facts.  If you want to claim that this is the case, then show evidence for it (but I suppose it’s as strangely missing as the evidence to support your other claims).  It’s also pretty amusing that you go from “lets look at it from an unbiased point of view” and launch in to quite a biased and untrue attack. 

You also make false claims when you claim that atheists do not offer any alternative to the supposed benefits and fulfillment that this god provides.  Well, let this atheist offer her own philosophy that we need to take care of each other and this planet.  We have to be smart, responsible and hard working.  No magical deity will do it for us, so we’ve got to deal with the real world.  You have yet to show that this god exists or that it actually does provide any benefits or fulfillment, outside a feeling.  We have no evidence that this feeling comes from anything but our brains.
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Do you think there's any doubt as to why the vast majority of the people on earth believe in God?
hmm, is this an appeal to popularity? There are many reasons people believe in god and they are not all yours.  This does not make god real.  We have thousands of different religions all whom claim that their god is the only god and that this god hates all others.  Humans like to believe in gods but they aren’t real and humans have no need to believe.  We get along fine without this belief.     
Quote
OK, so if you're an atheist, you get to be "sane", "real", and have your arguments backed by proof. Do you know what a theist has to give up? I'll just list a few - Universal connection, eternal bliss/life after death, an omnipotent, omnipresent, loving (in the theists mind) entity, opportunities for miracles, spiritual community. This is what I mean by not being swayed by the alternative arguments.
You are starting from an assumption that any of those things a theists “has to give up” are real.  Evidence please, especially for those miracles, if you don’t mind.  If they don’t exist, then they are nothing to give up.  Now, do theists have to give up their delusions that these things exist?  Yes, and so do children.  Would you prefer that children kept their belief that Santa exists?  What is the difference in requiring a child to let go fantasies and requiring an adult to do the same?   

Again, I asked what would sway you, YY?  What evidence would make you give up your beliefs?  If nothing would, then your mind isn’t as open as you’d like to claim.

Quote
There is a guy at work that I've known for 10 years. He's a totally normal person. One day, we're talking about real estate and he says he owns property in New Mexico. I ask if he's ever seen a UFO. He says yah, lots. I try to clarify - "so you've seen blurry objects in the sky"? He says, "No, I've seen Pyramids 100 feet above me on my property rumbling the earth I was standing on". He then goes on to tell me that there are underground cities and aliens living amongst us and he's seen all of that. He has maps of these underground cities and has actually been shot at going into Govt. restricted areas. He's seen lizard people and knows that they actually eat humans - mostly homeless.
First, your attempt to define this individual as “normal” is pretty funny. No, he’s not, not with those beliefs.  And without evidence there is no reason to believe him that he’s been shot at, had pyramids over him, etc.  He also offers the usual excuses that conspiracy theorists, and not surprisingly, theists, use to excuse why they don’t actually show people this stuff. 

If you don’t disbelieve him, then you give him the benefit of the doubt.  I also have an open mind, but I don’t let just anything drop in.  Have you asked him for these maps, visited these cities and have you gone to New Mexico?  I’m guessing not, though you may have.  Have you see anything to support him other than his ramblings?  You say that you don’t believe in teapots circling alpha centauri but you seem to believe in something with even less evidence.  We know that teapots exist, we know that Alpha Centauri exists.  All we’re lacking is a way to get it there.  With your “friend”, we have no evidence of aliens, of alien ships, of underground cities, of gov’t conspiracies, etc.  Your woo meter seems more than a bit off.  This whole thing reminds me of the “ancient aliens” show I watched last night. It was all about the “hollow earth” hypothesis.  People still believe that too, against mountains of evidence against it.  But they make sure that they never go to the poles to actually see, just to keep their delusions alive.         

And oh my, 9/11.   That’s always a good one to see who is a nut.  I accept physically possible explanations. I accept cold hard evidence. Some of the idiocy out on the web is simply impossible.  And I must underline “possible”.  It’s very possible we’ll never know the full story or completely understand what sequence caused the buildings to fall.  However, people are still investigating and speculating and we may get closer but all within the realm of possibility.  The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they must presuppose a huge amount for their nonsense to work e.g. that humans can keep their mouths shut, that humans are all that bright, that anyone actually cares to do this, etc.  Their explanations of how their ideas could work quickly become as arcane and knotted as any theist apologists’ excuses.       

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Offline Alzael

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #246 on: October 13, 2011, 03:27:45 PM »
Wow.....just wow. I mean this is really high-quality stupid that you've produced. I think what amazes me most is that for as much as you have accused me of being a broken record, after all of this repetition you still can't respond to a simple question properly. It has to be intentional, even I don't think that you can be this intensely moronic by accident.

I think the best way that I can describe your posting style is "anti-thought". You seem to respond badly to actual sentience. But nevermind that, let's get to work on this latest batch of absolute fail.


LUNATIC
1. an insane person.


- I'm in no way insane. I'm very normal

Base assertion.

You saying that you are normal does not mean that you are. Furthermore it's not really relevant as it does not answer the question.  The question being how does one tell your beliefs apart from the beliefs of someone who is insane. I did not at any point say that you yourself were insane (no matter how many times you try to make it look otherwise). I merely pointed out that since you have put your beliefs outside of any ability to be proven or supported by evidence, and that you have formed your beliefs without said evidence, your beliefs are indistinguishable from those of someone who is insane.


I have very appropriate values. I've never been arrested. I have normal beliefs. My beliefs are with the majority in terms of being a theist. My attitudes and behaviors are fine. I am well liked. I have almost 1000 friends on facebook :)

Still does not actually respond to the question. Also is still entirely irrelevant and another baseless assertion on top of that. So you've hit a veritable Tri-Fecta with this one. Congratulations.

Saying that you have "very appropriate values" is entirely subjective. As for having normal beliefs how do you justify that you actually have these? Again, your defense is just because you "say so". You have already admitted that you hold beliefs for which you have absolutely no evidence for, nor any ability to acquire evidence for. How is this an example of "normal" beliefs? While there is no evidence for a god, most theists at least try to pretend that they have it, because they know that they look nuts if they don't have evidence. Your admittance to an inability to provide evidence is actually rather unusual for a theist.

Furthermore, as we've already established, you have changed the use of words in order to support your beliefs. If you have to redefine the english language to make your beliefs palatable to even yourself, then you can't really call your beliefs "normal", can you?

Also, being "normal" really has nothing to do with anything, as conforming to societal norms (which is completely subjective at the best of times) does not reflect how one forms their beliefs. It merely reflects the type of beliefs that they are likely to have. Your definition of normal simply means that a person is normal if they follow the rules of their society. It has nothing to do with what they actually believe, or how they reach their beliefs.

As for conforming to norms and standards, as a theist are your beliefs really in line with the majority of them? What exactly is the majority of theistic beliefs? As we've gone over before, almost every theist interprets their beliefs entirely different. Jamiehliers identifies himself as a theist, but I seriously doubt he would agree with just about anything you have to say on the subject. The same likely holds for Truth OT, I doubt your beliefs match up very well with his either (probably because he and Jamie can actually form a rational thought, but I digress). We've had mountains of theists come through here that would disagree with you on your beliefs. We're they all "abnormal" theists? What makes you the "normal" one then? What about the billions of theists who all share different religious faiths, which emphasize different values and hold entirely different ideas. What is the "normal" beliefs that you all share? And what of the beliefs that you don't have in common with them? How many beliefs that are not in line with this mysterious "majority" must one have to be considered "normal"?

Again, it's a base assertion. My beliefs are normal because...........ummm.........uhhhh....... because I said so. It's everyone who doesn't conform to my beliefs that is wrong. Not uncoincidentally, this is a similiar manner in which a delusional person defends their beliefs when called on them.

However, this really does not matter because this response has nothing to do with the point you should be responding to. There is no reason that a person who is mentally ill cannot still have good values, or share much of the same beliefs as the majority of humanity. Insanity is more a matter of how one comes to their conclusions, rather than the conclusions themselves.

My older cousin is schizophrenic, but he still is one of the nicest and most moral people I have ever met. However much of his preceptions of reality come about because of the voices that he hears in his head.

You've still failed to differentiate your beliefs from his. You've simply assserted that you're a nice guy (without any evidence to support such a thing, might I add). And somehow, in some manner that you have not seen fit to describe, this separates your beliefs from being comparable to a mental illness.

2. a person whose actions and manner are marked by extreme eccentricity or recklessness.

- I am not reckless. I drive safely, getting a moving violation maybe once every 5 years. I don't hold my son over the edges of balconies. I've broken one bone in my body about 20 years ago. I don't injure others. Pretty standard stuff.

Again, redefining the english language to suit your needs is something I would rank as being pretty eccentric. Which I notice that you didn't bother to try and pretend that you weren't. I could go on to tear this apart, but since it's so completely irrelevant and stupid why bother.

I will simply point out, yet again, that none of this relates to your beliefs in anyway. Nor does it do anything to separate them the beliefs of a person who is mentally ill.

3. Law . a person legally declared to be of unsound mind and who therefore is not held capable or responsible before the law.

- Again, never been arrested. Noone in my family has been in jail. I'm pretty sure none of them have been arrested either, but you never know.

Again, pointless and actually has nothing to do with the topic.

insane
1. not sane; not of sound mind; mentally deranged.


- My beliefs are quite sane. I have a full time job with a large corporation and have been employed since I graduated from college. I have no signs of mental derangement. I don't get depressed. I don't hear voices in my head. I know right from wrong.

Again, base assertion.

How are your beliefs sane? You admit to having no evidence to support them, you have altered the english language so that you can justify them even to yourself. You have no means of determining whether they are correct or not. Again, the question is not what makes you not a lunatic. The question is what separates your beliefs from those that could be held by a lunatic.

You have to justify why your beliefs are sane, when you have specifically tailored them to not be subject to any sort of reality check.

As for having no signs of mental derangement, you actually have several that you've demonstrated so far. The most obvious one being a belief in that which has no evidence (ie. a delusion).

As for knowing right from wrong, of course you do. Everyone knows right from wrong, that's because right and wrong are completely subjective. Even if you were a serial killer you would know right from wrong. But do you know reality from fantasy? That's the question. More importantly, how do you know?

2. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of a person who is mentally deranged: insane actions; an insane asylum.

- I've never been in an insane asylum. I've never been accused of making insane actions.

Again, has no point.

3. utterly senseless: an insane plan.

- I have my senses about me. I don't have insane plans. My beliefs are doing just fine.

Again, base......oh forget it, we all know the tune by now. It's not like you have any other notes to play.

I'll simply point out again that this is no different that what any insane person would say if asked. Many people who are insane don't actually think of themselves as such.

So again it's "because I say so".

So, to sum it up I'm not a lunatic and my actions indicate that my beliefs are not those of a lunatic. [/color]

Actually to sum it up, you claim to not be a lunatic, but all you can offer is multiple instances of "because I say so" as evidence. I'll also point out once more that whether you are a lunatic or not was not the issue.

Allow me to borrow a page from Sam Harris.

If I were to sit here eating pancakes, and I told you that saying a few words of latin over my pancakes would turn it into the body of Elvis. You would think that I was insane.

However if I were to say the same about a cracker, and the body of Christ, I would simply be a Catholic.

You have claimed that god is everything.

I can claim that Michael J. Fox is everything.

If I claim that I have a relationship with Jimmi Hendrix, wherein he talks to me in my thoughts, gives me advice and support in my times of troubles, I'm a nutcase.

If I claim that I have a relationship with Jesus, wherein he talks to me in my thoughts, gives me advice and support in my times of troubles, I'm a Christian.

What makes one idea stupid/crazy and the other not? They all have the same evidence (or rather lack thereof) behind them. They are all equally proveable and are equally based on ignoring observable reality.

So what makes your claims any different from the claims that an insane person would make? You can't point to evidence to separate the two (without redefining the word of course), and you can't point to observable reality, you certainly can't use intelligent/rational thought. So what does make the two different?

Besides, you know, "because I say so".

Perhaps you should actually stop and think about why you have to redefine words just to make your beliefs work. Maybe you should consider why you can not only not provide evidence that your beliefs are true, you consistently fail to even provide an argument for why they aren't some made up fantasy that exists only in your head.

Just once, YY, perhaps you should try to actually respond to what is being said. Instead of making up Strawmen and arguing against those. Not that I'm not receiving a rather perverse amusement from reading your inane responses while picturing you with a finger stuck up your nose and drooling onto the keyboard as you type out your responses while staring vacantly at a fly buzzing about your room in the midst of your latest drug-induced trance (ok, that's probably not what's really going on, but it's the most likely scenario I could think of that would produce posts like yours). However since I'm putting in the effort of actually thinking about your responses (and then spending the next half hour with a pencil lodged up my nose as I desperately try to fish out the piece of my brain that died the instant I tried to have it think about this nonsense) you could at least make the same effort.

After all of this time you still have not actually responded to one question asked without a Strawman or some other form of logical fallacy. Is it actually that hard for you to have an honest conversation?

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Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #247 on: October 13, 2011, 06:30:32 PM »
The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they must presuppose a huge amount for their nonsense to work e.g. that humans can keep their mouths shut, that humans are all that bright, that anyone actually cares to do this, etc.  Their explanations of how their ideas could work quickly become as arcane and knotted as any theist apologists’ excuses.

I didn't get a clear answer of who you think was behind 9/11. But, to answer what I quoted above, let me present this.

1. The planes that crashed and the WTC towers falling happened right? Right. That's a given. We ALL know that happened. There were eyewitnesses and video. So it's clear that this event was not fabricated.

2. SOMEONE, no matter who or what motive had to plan and orchestrate this deed right? Right. Since it happened, it means that it was planned and executed. It wasn't a random happening of planes crashing into buildings. Someone thought this through.

So to answer your presuppositions:
humans did keep their mouths shut
that humans are that bright
someone actually cared to do it

Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #248 on: October 13, 2011, 08:13:35 PM »
Atheists number one argument against theists is to name call and belittle.

To Screwtape - Good one on the Karma points LOL

Quote
that is our #3 argument, not #1

Offline JeffPT

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #249 on: October 13, 2011, 10:02:27 PM »
In my opinion, the best way to push a false belief system from being held my the majority to the minority is to present truth and facts. Their beliefs, the false ones, can for the most part be ignored and need not even be addressed as information about what is definate and true is brought to the forefront and into the collective focus of the masses.
So the first step to me is obvious, and that is to make facts known because many if not most, have no idea how much information is out there.

Most of the time, faith defeats truth and facts.  Why do you think atheists seem so frustrated all the time?  It's because Christians don't often listen to truth and facts. 

Just look at this quote by onesteward posted today... 

You  see Monkeys, that is a fine example of Christianity. You meant the bolded part as an insult and yet Scripture tells us that we are blessed when insulted for our faith.A "bad thing" is turned into a "good thing".

Do you really think THIS person could be swayed by truth and facts?  I mean seriously.  This person thinks being insulted is a PLUS!  That's mind bogglingly stupid, yet if he were to see my comment about it being mind bogglingly stupid, he would see THAT as a plus.  And even if we spent a good chunk of time explaining how every religion back then probably underwent some form of persecution, and that making the persecuted believe they were blessed in the eyes of God would be a great way to propagate the religion in the face of constant persecution, that would not even remotely move them.  They would rather believe what they've been told and bask in the insults.  It's... so frustrating; and the worst part about that is they probably see our frustration as a positive thing.  Now THAT is a nearly perfect barrier to honestly analyzing what they've been told, isn't it?  He would never consider the fact that these are just words in a really old book that may or may not be true.     

Educating the masses is hard.  Many people don't trust education anymore.  Somewhere along the line, being smart has become a taboo.  Who wants to listen to facts when fiction is so much easier and self-serving? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #250 on: October 14, 2011, 09:16:56 AM »
The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they must presuppose a huge amount for their nonsense to work e.g. that humans can keep their mouths shut, that humans are all that bright, that anyone actually cares to do this, etc.  Their explanations of how their ideas could work quickly become as arcane and knotted as any theist apologists’ excuses.

I didn't get a clear answer of who you think was behind 9/11. But, to answer what I quoted above, let me present this.

1. The planes that crashed and the WTC towers falling happened right? Right. That's a given. We ALL know that happened. There were eyewitnesses and video. So it's clear that this event was not fabricated.

2. SOMEONE, no matter who or what motive had to plan and orchestrate this deed right? Right. Since it happened, it means that it was planned and executed. It wasn't a random happening of planes crashing into buildings. Someone thought this through.

So to answer your presuppositions:
humans did keep their mouths shut
that humans are that bright
someone actually cared to do it

oh my, all of my post and you have to focus on 9/11.  Great, more dodging!  But to indulge you, I believe that idiot theists from Saudia Arabia got lucky with a willfully ignorant gov’t and flew two planes into the WTC and one plane into a field in PA and one into the Pentagon.   Let me guess, you think that the mean ol’ gov’t did it &)

The rest of your argument is just more dodging of mine and others posts. Is it possible for conspiracies to occasionally work? You betcha, especially when humans aren’t that bright on *both* sides, ignoring evidence (hmm, just like you) But the vast vast number of claimed conspiracies, like the ones that someone other than the idiot theists did the deed, are false and delusional.  Your actions are pathetic, YY.  Answer my questions to you.  They are right there in my posts and your whines about how you can’t find them and how everyone should give them again to you just underlines what a deceitful coward you are.  It’s occasionally amusing to watch you run around desperate to avoid having to actually answer something, but it does get tedious to watch one more theist who has NOTHING but excuses, dodges and outright lies. 
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #251 on: October 14, 2011, 10:03:12 AM »
I'm sorry you feel that way. But I like my beliefs. They're mine and I'm not swayed by the alternative arguments.

I think this is a good sentence to start from on whether, yy, your beliefs are any different than a lunatic's, or perhaps I should say another theist's or someone who believes in other baseless claims. 

Sticking with the OP, let's look at it from an unbiased pov. Atheists number one argument against theists is to name call and belittle. Atheists offer no alternative to the benefits and fulfillment that God provides -- no matter what religion.

Those that don't believe in Magick number one argument against Those that can weild mystical energy is to name call and belittle. Skeptics offer no alternative to the benefits and fulfillment that being a sorcerer provides.


That's what you are saying in a nutshell.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #252 on: October 14, 2011, 10:45:10 AM »
Most of the time, faith defeats truth and facts.  Why do you think atheists seem so frustrated all the time?  It's because Christians don't often listen to truth and facts. 

Just look at this quote by onesteward posted today... 

You  see Monkeys, that is a fine example of Christianity. You meant the bolded part as an insult and yet Scripture tells us that we are blessed when insulted for our faith.A "bad thing" is turned into a "good thing".

Do you really think THIS person could be swayed by truth and facts?  I mean seriously.  This person thinks being insulted is a PLUS!  That's mind bogglingly stupid, yet if he were to see my comment about it being mind bogglingly stupid, he would see THAT as a plus.  And even if we spent a good chunk of time explaining how every religion back then probably underwent some form of persecution, and that making the persecuted believe they were blessed in the eyes of God would be a great way to propagate the religion in the face of constant persecution, that would not even remotely move them.  They would rather believe what they've been told and bask in the insults.  It's... so frustrating; and the worst part about that is they probably see our frustration as a positive thing.  Now THAT is a nearly perfect barrier to honestly analyzing what they've been told, isn't it?  He would never consider the fact that these are just words in a really old book that may or may not be true.     

Educating the masses is hard.  Many people don't trust education anymore.  Somewhere along the line, being smart has become a taboo.  Who wants to listen to facts when fiction is so much easier and self-serving?

You say, and are correct to an extent that Christians don't often listen to truth and facts, however, many do. The ones that do not, don't and in those cases; what's the point of continuing with them?
The problem I see is that most people are ignorant to what the facts are and what understanding the facts mean, in addition, most folks have been presented with info that is purely subjective in its place. I find that people tend to be more defensive than they are stupid or intelligent. People defend themselves and their beliefs when CONFRONTED, with vigor and oftentimes irrationality as their goal is defense as opposed to enlightenment. I believe that is why oftentimes there is no real winner in debates as debaters tend to stick to their previously held stances even after engaging an opponent.
I am more of a fan of a rational and patient approach that says to someone:
"Here are these facts. Check out why they're facts. What do you make of these facts?" 
Let people use the facts to work their way through and I believe that oftentimes, the facts will win. There's no panacea that will work for everyone, but I my mind, this is the best approach.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #253 on: October 14, 2011, 12:43:32 PM »
You say, and are correct to an extent that Christians don't often listen to truth and facts, however, many do. The ones that do not, don't and in those cases; what's the point of continuing with them?

In all honesty, it's because they are the most dangerous ones. 

The problem I see is that most people are ignorant to what the facts are and what understanding the facts mean, in addition, most folks have been presented with info that is purely subjective in its place. I find that people tend to be more defensive than they are stupid or intelligent. People defend themselves and their beliefs when CONFRONTED, with vigor and oftentimes irrationality as their goal is defense as opposed to enlightenment. I believe that is why oftentimes there is no real winner in debates as debaters tend to stick to their previously held stances even after engaging an opponent.
I am more of a fan of a rational and patient approach that says to someone:
"Here are these facts. Check out why they're facts. What do you make of these facts?" 
Let people use the facts to work their way through and I believe that oftentimes, the facts will win. There's no panacea that will work for everyone, but I my mind, this is the best approach.

Then get started Darryl.  I believe, in the not too distant future, that you will become a powerful voice for atheism.  It starts with educating people, and you have that background.  Get started.  Educate people.  Talk to pastors and priests because those are the men spreading the subjective information.  Present your facts and see what happens.  If you don't recognize it yet, in all likelihood you will soon recognize that religion is not only false, but it is the enemy of civilization.  Fight for us.     
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #254 on: October 14, 2011, 04:36:22 PM »
oh my, all of my post and you have to focus on 9/11.  Great, more dodging!  But to indulge you, I believe that idiot theists from Saudia Arabia got lucky with a willfully ignorant gov’t and flew two planes into the WTC and one plane into a field in PA and one into the Pentagon.   Let me guess, you think that the mean ol’ gov’t did it &)

There you go putting words in my mouth again. I (purposely) didn't even say who I thought did this just to see you say it for me . . . AGAIN. So, to expand on your ignorance of the FACTS, where was that plane in PA? Did the evidence support the plane being flown into a field? Also, was there adequate evidence (to your liking) that a plane was flown into the Pentagon? If so, how big was this plane and would your plane follow the government's official story?

I'll get back to you on the rest. Keep calling me a coward and liar. You seem to get a thrill out of repeating yourself. And while you're at it, go ahead and respond to my posts.

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #255 on: October 19, 2011, 03:41:43 PM »
There you go putting words in my mouth again. I (purposely) didn't even say who I thought did this just to see you say it for me . . . AGAIN. So, to expand on your ignorance of the FACTS, where was that plane in PA? Did the evidence support the plane being flown into a field? Also, was there adequate evidence (to your liking) that a plane was flown into the Pentagon? If so, how big was this plane and would your plane follow the government's official story?
  I know you didn’t say what you thought.  But from your further questions, I know I was right in my guess.  Hilarious.  And of course, still nothing to back up your claims that the bible and other holy books have more about how the respective deities love people than they have about hate.   I do love how you try to derail discussion.  If you want to discuss 9/11 and the various conspiracies, I’d be happy to but not in this thread.  I love conspiracy theories and would love a thread like that. 
Quote
I'll get back to you on the rest. Keep calling me a coward and liar. You seem to get a thrill out of repeating yourself. And while you're at it, go ahead and respond to my posts.
  I only get a “thrill”, really more amusement than a thrill, to see a theist lie about things.   After re-reading a few of your posts, it does seem to me that you use very similar excuses to keep up with your belief as a drug user uses to excuse his addiction. 
Quote
Well, I guess I stop when it becomes a negative effect on my life. I don't discount anything that doesn't make me feel good.
  I know it feels good to believe in Santa Claus.  It hurt to realize that he wasn’t real.  Is it good to believe in something that isn’t real?  That’s when the rubber hits the road, when is a delusion really harmful and when is it appropriate to counter it?
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Offline pingnak

Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #256 on: October 19, 2011, 03:48:35 PM »
Another SIMPLE way would be to figure out how to trick people who answer "Ummm... Christian!" when asked about what their religion is, or answer "Every week" when asked whether they go to church... into TELLING THE FUCKING TRUTH.

http://www.google.com/search?q=People+lie+religious+polling

I suppose you could camp some people out across the street from every church in town and count how many people go in, or cars in the parking lots.  Then compare that to the population at large.

If all the people went to church that SAY they did, every sunday would be a rush hour traffic jam, all day.

Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #257 on: October 19, 2011, 05:59:42 PM »
But from your further questions, I know I was right in my guess. 

Totally not right. You said I thought the govt did it. Not at all. I don't know who did it. All I know is that there is not enough evidence to support the official story.


it does seem to me that you use very similar excuses to keep up with your belief as a drug user uses to excuse his addiction. 


You would know wouldn't you. Now I see where all this hate comes from.


I know it feels good to believe in Santa Claus.  It hurt to realize that he wasn’t real.  Is it good to believe in something that isn’t real?  That’s when the rubber hits the road, when is a delusion really harmful and when is it appropriate to counter it?

Would you rather have me believe like a Born Again Fundy? You're kinda driving me in that direction. OK, I'm just joking.


Offline YY

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #258 on: October 19, 2011, 06:15:37 PM »
And of course, still nothing to back up your claims that the bible and other holy books have more about how the respective deities love people than they have about hate. (my bold)

Here you go twisting again. Below was my exact quote. Somehow, you interpret this into a discussion about the actions of the respective deities to prove your biased, anti-Yahweh point.

If you can prove that holy books have more instances of hatred than love, then I'd agree with your point. If you can't show that, then you are merely projecting your atheist bias.


My point was that there are a ton of great teachings in the Bible and other holy books. Personally, I discard the bad stuff and keep the good. Why not? It's all fiction anyway right? I'm just fast forwarding past the part of the movie I don't like.

So here is my short submission of passages that can be positive, beneficial, impactful teachings. There are more examples of loving teachings like these in the holy books than of hateful ones.

[EDITED BY MODERATOR: Green boldface is for moderator instructions only.  Please use another color when highlighting.  Thank you.]


Matthew 5:43-48  “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,  so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.  For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?  You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 5:9  “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

Romans 13:8  Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

Galatians 5:13  For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Ephesians 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love,

1 Peter 1:22  Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,

1 John 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Matthew 6:24-25  ”No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.  “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

John 15:9-17 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.  If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full. “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8  Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.  Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

Ephesians 4:2-3 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

1 John 3:18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.

Proverbs 17:17  A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

John 14:27  Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.

John 20:19  On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them,  “Peace be with you.”

Romans 14:19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

2 Corinthians 13:11  Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Mark 9:50  Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, how will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.”

Luke 6:27 “But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

Romans 12:17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all.

1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving partner separates, let it be so. In such cases the brother or sister is not enslaved. God has called you to peace.

James 3:18 And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Numbers 6:25-26 the LORD make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; the LORD lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace (not prince of hate).

Romans 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.

Colossians 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful.

Proverbs 22:24-25 Make no friendship with a man given to anger, nor go with a wrathful man, lest you learn his ways and entangle yourself in a snare.

1 Corinthians 15:33 Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.”

Romans 12:10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Out do one another in showing honor.

Ephesians 4:29-32 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Colossians 3:12-14 Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony.

Proverbs 17:17 A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

Proverbs 24:20 for the evil man has no future; the lamp of the wicked will be put out.

Proverbs 24:14 Know that wisdom is such to your soul; if you find it, there will be a future, and your hope will not be cut off.

Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

1 Corinthians 15:19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

2 Corinthians 4:16-18  So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

Romans 12:12  Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.

Romans 15:13  May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.

Matthew 7:7,8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

2:190 Allah loveth not transgressors

2:195 do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.

2:205 When he turns his back, his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and cattle. But Allah loveth not mischief.

2:276 Allah will deprive usury of all blessing, but will give increase for deeds of charity: For He loveth not creatures ungrateful and wicked

3:57 "As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them in full their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong."

3:76 Nay. -- Those that keep their plighted faith and act aright, -- verily Allah loves those who act aright.

3:103 And hold fast, all together, by the Rope which Allah stretches out for you, and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the Pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided.

3:134 Those who spend freely, whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon all men; -- for Allah loves those who do good

3:140 Allah loveth not those that do wrong.

4:36 Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good -- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbors who are near, neighbors who are strangers, the Companion by your side, the wayfarer ye meet, and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious

4:107 Contend not on behalf of such as betray their own souls; for Allah loveth not one given to perfidy and crime;

4:148 Allah loveth not that evil should be noised abroad in public speech, except where injustice hath been done; for Allah is He who heareth and knoweth all things.

5:14 Forgive them, and overlook their misdeeds: For Allah loveth those who are kind.

5:45 They are fond of listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden. If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.

5:67 Allah loveth not those who do mischief

5:90 O ye who Believe! Make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: For Allah loveth not those given to excess

5:96 On those who believe and do deeds of righteousness there is no blame for what they ate in the past, when they guard themselves from evil, and believe, and do deeds of righteousness, -- or again, guard themselves from evil and believe, -- or again, guard themselves from evil and do good. For Allah loveth those who do good.

6:141 It is He who produceth gardens, with trellises and without, and dates, and tilth with produce of all kinds, and olives and pomegranates, similar in kind and different in variety): Eat of their fruit in their season, but render the dues that are proper on the day that the harvest is gathered. But waste not by excess: For Allah loveth not the wasters

7:31 O Children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer: Eat and drink: But waste not by excess, for Allah loveth not the wasters.

7:55 Call on your Lord with humility and in private: For Allah loveth not those who trespass beyond bounds

7:189 It is He Who created you from a single person, and made his mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her in love. When they are united, she bears a light burden and carries it about unnoticed. When she grows heavy, they both pray to Allah their Lord, saying: "If Thou givest us a goodly child. We vow we shall ever be grateful."

8:58 If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back their Covenant to them, so as to be on equal terms: For Allah loveth not the treacherous

9:4 But the treaties are not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: For Allah loveth the righteous.

14:37 So fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with Fruits: So that they may give thanks.

16:23 Undoubtedly Allah doth know what they conceal, and what they reveal: Verily He loveth not the arrogant

19:96 On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will Allah Most Gracious bestow love.

21:90 So We listened to him: And We granted him Yahya: We cured his wife's barrenness for him. These three were ever quick in emulation in good works: They used to call on Us with love and reverence, and humble themselves before Us.

28:76 "Exult not, for Allah loveth not those who exult in riches.

28:77 "But seek, with the wealth which Allah has bestowed on thee, the Home of the Hereafter, nor forget thy portion in this world: But do thou good, as Allah has been good to thee, and seek not occasions for mischief in the land: For Allah loves not those who do mischief."

30:21 And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your hearts: Verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.

31:18 "And swell not thy cheek for pride at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster.

38:32 And he said, "Truly do I love the love of Good, with a view to the glory of my Lord,"

42:23 That is the Bounty whereof Allah gives Glad Tidings to His Servants who believe and do righteous deeds. Say: "No reward do I ask of you for this except the love of those near of kin." And if any one earns any good, We shall give him an increase of good in respect thereof

42:40 The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto in degree): But if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah: For Allah loveth not those who do wrong

49:9 If two parties among the Believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: But if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye all against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: For Allah loves those who are fair and just.

57:23 In order that ye may not despair over matters that pass you by, nor exult over favors bestowed upon you. For Allah loveth not any vainglorious boaster

60:7 It may be that Allah will grant love and friendship between you and those whom ye now hold as enemies. For Allah has power over all things; and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

60:8 Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loveth those who are just

76:9 Saying, "We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: No reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.

« Last Edit: October 19, 2011, 07:27:59 PM by pianodwarf »

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #259 on: October 19, 2011, 07:31:45 PM »
and you  still haven't shown that there is more hate in the various holy books than love.  Honestly, YY, for soeone who is so supposedly not a Christain, you certainly have to defend it a lot. 

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So here is my short submission of passages that can be positive, beneficial, impactful teachings. There are more examples of loving teachings like these in the holy books than of hateful ones.
 

yep, keep going.  Declaring it so doesn't make it true.  One would think you'd have realized that by now. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline velkyn

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Re: What's the best way to push theism into the minority?
« Reply #260 on: October 19, 2011, 07:38:57 PM »
Totally not right. You said I thought the govt did it. Not at all. I don't know who did it. All I know is that there is not enough evidence to support the official story.
which means, that you think that ther is something else.  Okay, dear, show me this. And yes, I am right now being condescending. 
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You would know wouldn't you. Now I see where all this hate comes from.
my how "clever".  Gee, dear, trying to declare I'm a drug user?  Nice lie. Go ahead, prove your accusation. 
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Would you rather have me believe like a Born Again Fundy? You're kinda driving me in that direction. OK, I'm just joking.
ah, the claim of "just joking".  Nothing like that to show how serious you actually are.  Sorry dear but I would rather have you actually being smart and recognizing reality, not some idiot who decides that whatever makes them feel good is perfectly fine.  this is a rather pathetic false dichotomy.  You are as bad as a born again fundy,  with your willful ignorance.  Just as bad.  There is nothing about you or your primitive beliefs that are admirable.  This is exactly the silliness described by Greta Christina, confused theists who are sure that atheists should respect their less than vile religions since they are "not" born again fundies. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/