What's the best way to push theism into the minority?

[jetson]

Truth OT,

I was with you for the most part.  But you left out some important things.  I agree that it is important to educate a child, and present them with certain information, at an appropriate age.  But that includes telling them that god beliefs are born of ancient writings, mythology and misunderstandings about the world. 

It sounds like you can appreciate the impact of indoctrination of young minds through religious beliefs, so it is important to distinguish beliefs from actual knowledge.  And today, the closest thing we have to real knowledge is science.  And science has no stance on gods and religions, other than their historical roots, and evolution of those roots to modern times. 

[rickymooston]

Please produce the evidence and data to back up your statement.

My niece learned about theism and the hell or the highway thing at 7. Her response was "ok", I'm going to hell.

I don't think children are smarter but they are jyst as capable of learing critical thought as we were.

[MMcNeely]

Really?  Then why are millions of children of various faiths falling for the going to hell argument.  Watch the documentary Jesus Camp... it's more common than you think.

[screwtape]

YY,

hey, fucko, apologize.  You seem to have all the time in the world to answer other people's posts.  Yet when your inflamatory and insulting posts about me have been shown to be inaccurate, suddenly I'm invisible.  "Oh, what's that over there, a butterfly?"  Just because you want to ignore it does not mean you did not do it.  I think that is a pretty sucky thing to do, particularly for someone who wants the rest of the world to see him as morally superior.

Seriously, be a man about it and apologize already.   

[gonegolfing]

You feel no obligation to explain Cyclopes or Zeus, off the cuff to your child, do you ? Enough said.

I don't take Cyclopes or Zeus as role models in my life so I won't be teaching him about that.

Excellent, your on the road to recovery then. Just a few more role models to be tossed out and then your good to go.

A parent has crossed the indoctrination line however when they teach the child to accept the idea as real and true and tell them they'll suffer grave consequences if they don't.

I don't know why you'd assume I would? I don't believe in Hell or a vengeful god. I will teach my son that life is about choices and how the choices they make is mostly directly related to the outcomes of their decisions. God comes in when they are at a crossroad and need help making that decision. Like it or not, it's my God perspective that has led me to the person I am today. I like who that is and I think my child will benefit from similar thinking.

You'll notice that I didn't make that assumption and was generalizing with the hope that you wouldn't be counted in that number. Most do and your an exception if you do not. Kudos.

Your son will learn well enough that life is about choices. Your son is not you. He's an individual. And his individual right is to learn about life from a truth standpoint. What has been proved to be true is what you owe him. Nothing else. Your perspective about a god is not a truth, and you know it, and so you do not owe him that perspective as if it will have the same meaning to him as it does to you and of course would be an outrageous lie if you were to let on it were true. Again, you owe him the truth.

You may love who you are, but it is arrogance to think that you owe it to others to learn your perspectives with the intention of them being being just like you or having the same perspectives. Your son will only benefit from the truth and the right decisions that he makes out of those truths. Believing lies or faulty information and acting on them will always breed bad decisions in the long run. If you want your son to make good decisions then give him good information. The god idea has not only been unproved, but evidence has proved that it is a bad idea and that it has a severe deficiency of the good information and moral stability that your son will need during the course of his life.

If the primary adult in his early years is giving him false or faulty information then he's going to reap the rewards of that down the road. Can you guarantee that your son will be the perfect theist with the information you give him ?? NO you cannot.  If he turns out to be a wacko fundie christian in his twenty's that blows up abortion clinics, you will have been the one to have given him the root information on the god idea that he would have then used to form his own ideas on his gods mandate for him. You see ? Its' extreme I know, but these scenarios happen. Every Extremist Fundie has no doubt sat on Daddy's knee as a child and sang "jesus loves the little children".

Don't arrogantly think that your kid couldn't be one of them based on your love of yourself and the fact that you've filled his head with your perfect perspectives.

Don't be a dick like others and please leave your child's mind alone. It's your moral duty to do so.

Cheers

[bertatberts]

, I could put my nine year old  daughter on here and she'll give you a run for your money.

Is this because your daughter is indoctrinated with your values? Ahhhh, it's ok for you to do so, but not me?

I think you've completely missed the point. It's the lack of indoctrination that she is that way, did that fly over your head.

You're kidding yourself if you think that you were given free reign to choose how to think until you were 12.

Am I! And you know this and me how!

You may not have been formally taught how to think, but every time your parents spoke to each other, to their friends, on the phone etc., you were listening and picked up on their values.

Well duh! being in the same home will do that, of course I'd would have picked up some of their values, but they weren't enforced on me were they. There lies the difference. You seem to be missing that aspect of it.

And please tell my why you feel sorry for my son? That is the MOST condescending comment I've heard on these boards yet.

Because you are abusing the poor child by enforcing your views on him. that is why.
You actually have said, you want to enforce your views on him on several occasions.
It seems you don't want to produce an individual person, you want a clone of yourself.

[YY]

You may love who you are, but it is arrogance to think that you owe it to others to learn your perspectives with the intention of them being being just like you or having the same perspectives. Your son will only benefit from the truth and the right decisions that he makes out of those truths.

gonegolfing, I see that you are very passionate about your pov. In reading what you wrote, it also seems that you are doing the same as me in thinking that "your" way is the best, but you don't provide any data backing these claims. And don't you think it's a little presumptuous to tell other people how to raise their children?

Can you guarantee that your son will be the perfect theist with the information you give him ??

Please show me anyone who can.

Don't arrogantly think that your kid couldn't be one of them based on your love of yourself and the fact that you've filled his head with your perfect perspectives.

Haven't said anything of the sort. But, would it please you to know that I was raised Catholic with Catholic roots that go back to my Grandmother who had 8 kids and 22 grandkids and NONE of us or her kids spouses have ever been in jail? Total side bar, but that's pretty amazing right?

Don't be a dick like others and please leave your child's mind alone. It's your moral duty to do so.

Is it me or do you sound like the morality police?

Cheers

I'm glad we ended on a civil note.

[YY]

I think you've completely missed the point. It's the lack of indoctrination of religion that she is that way, did that fly over your head.

Fixed

You actually have said, you want to enforce your views on him on several occasions.
It seems you don't want to produce an individual person, you want a clone of yourself.

Yes, and I'll also bring him to church with me and indoctrinate him on what I believe God to be. And you're taking it a little far in saying that he'll be a clone just because I'm teaching him about spirituality. A little too dramatic.

[Omen]

Yes, and I'll also bring him to church with me and indoctrinate him on what I believe God to be. And you're taking it a little far in saying that he'll be a clone just because I'm teaching him about spirituality. A little too dramatic.

The indoctrination of the young is the only means in which religion procreates in society.  Unlike learning, indoctrination often capitalizes on stifling questioning or critical examination, for the benefit of the indoctrination itself.  Are you trying to distance the word indoctrination from your religious beliefs and your child?

I would agree that every parent indoctrinates their child to some degree, because it is simply one of those unavoidable social traits where we expect the best for our kids and dutifully think the best is exactly what we had or should have had growing up.  However, at some points that behavior can cross over into abuse where it involves systematic dishonesty or stifling of natural curiosity.  Which many former non-believers on this forum are going to cite in their own personal history as well as exposure to modern day evangelical youth programs.

[YY]

hey, fucko, apologize.

What are you going to do? Kick my ass?

Let's examine this again.

How do you fix a problem with ants in your kitchen?  Get rid of the ants.  How about if you have mice?  Get rid of the mice.  What about butthole religious people who want to base your government on a 2000 year old anthology of hebrew myths?  Get rid of them.

It is not a real solution or a practical solution (mainly because we don't have the political power to make it happen) or a moral solution (maybe debatable).  But it is often the first thing that pops into our 250,000 year old monkey brains. 

So, in short, this is what I'm reading:

Let's (atheists) get rid of butthole religious people like we would get rid of ants or mice, but this solution won't happen because we don't have enough political power to make it happen. Whether or not it's morally objectionable is debatable. This solution is our primitive minds first reaction (or maybe just yours judging by the way you react to anonymous people who post on message boards?)

[YY]

Yes, and I'll also bring him to church with me and indoctrinate him on what I believe God to be. And you're taking it a little far in saying that he'll be a clone just because I'm teaching him about spirituality. A little too dramatic.

The indoctrination of the young is the only means in which religion procreates in society.  Unlike learning, indoctrination often capitalizes on stifling questioning or critical examination, for the benefit of the indoctrination itself.  Are you trying to distance the word indoctrination from your religious beliefs and your child?

I would agree that every parent indoctrinates their child to some degree, because it is simply one of those unavoidable social traits where we expect the best for our kids and dutifully think the best is exactly what we had or should have had growing up.  However, at some points that behavior can cross over into abuse where it involves systematic dishonesty or stifling of natural curiosity.  Which many former non-believers on this forum are going to cite in their own personal history as well as exposure to modern day evangelical youth programs.

Unlike my own childhood where I was told "because I said so" or "that's the way it is" so many times, I will welcome my sons questioning and critical examination of myself and those who we see as the leaders of our church. I think this is a healthy practice. I'll also teach him to ask the people in my church, people outside of our faith, and those without faith so that he can make up his own mind. And again, I will also teach him of the things that work in my life whether they be spiritual or not. I think it would be intellectually honest if atheists did the same.

[Omen]

Unlike my own childhood where I was told "because I said so" or "that's the way it is" so many times, I will welcome my sons questioning and critical examination of myself and those who we see as the leaders of our church. I think this is a healthy practice. I'll also teach him to ask the people in my church, people outside of our faith, and those without faith so that he can make up his own mind. And again, I will also teach him of the things that work in my life whether they be spiritual or not. I think it would be intellectually honest if atheists did the same.

And when he asks why there is no evidence or contradictory evidence for the vast majority of the bible..you will respond with?

[Hatter23]

OH certainly you could have a diferent definition of God. Though, I ask you:

(1)Define God. Do not use weasel words or circular definitions.
(2)Prove that that definition is not a logical paradox
(3)Show proof that differs from the other ten thousand dieties man
has worshipped, again without committing a logical error

Until you do those three things....your worship of that deity is the intellectual equivalent a gibbering tribal primitive bowing before their god, UGABUGA.

There's already another thread addressed to me about this topic.

So why is it that a God that exists beyond logic and comprehension seems to need to fit into your 3 objective criteria to effect change in someone's life? I'll ask you a question now. Suppose you remove all of your criteria of definition. Will you then be open to a particular God or flying spaghetti monster or what have you influencing your quality of life?  Let's say this flying spaghetti monster will make your life 100% more fulfilling? Will you turn it away due to pride and ego? What about 50%? 1%? Is there a cutoff point?

So you dodge. How surprising. Have fun bowing down before UGABUGA.

[YY]

And when he asks why there is no evidence or contradictory evidence for the vast majority of the bible..you will respond with?

The bible (and a lot of spiritual books) is meant to be an allegory that you can use to reach far beyond what you ever imagined. For example, a simple carpenter's son named Jesus told us that "Everything is possible for him who believes".

[YY]

So you dodge. How surprising. Have fun bowing down before UGABUGA.

As previously stated, I say prayers of gratitude and thanks. My God does not require me to bow down before it. Projection on your part.

And I like how you call it a "dodge" when I have an ENTIRE THREAD that answers your 3 questions. But, for your convenience, I will give you a cliff's notes response.

1) God is everything seen and unseen, knowable and unknowable. And before you start asking a ton of other questions, again, it's covered in the other thread.

2) God being everything would be like Americans making up America. Not exactly, but in the spirit of the context. As an American individual, I can show my love for America even though I am a part of America.

3) I don't have proof.

[pingnak]

Simplest is to realize that the most obnoxious, stupid, insulting, etc. theists are usually members of teensy tiny, cultish churches that believe not only are we immoral, god-hating, etc. atheists evil and wrong and a bad influence on children, worse than pedophile priests, but they are the only †TRUE CHRISTIANS†©®™, and the rest of Christianity are just posers with a one-way ticket to 'hell'.

They tend to want to say there are 'two billion Christians', and 'how can two BILLION Christians be wrong', ignoring the fact that there are over four billion NON-CHRISTIANS, and also that they themselves believe approximately TWO BILLION Christians are completely wrong, not being annoying little fucktards like themselves who give an absolute reek to Christianity in general.

[pingnak]

So basically, if you want to marginalize a theist, just compare them to the absolutely standard Christian internet trolls, of which there are endless examples.

[Omen]

And when he asks why there is no evidence or contradictory evidence for the vast majority of the bible..you will respond with?

The bible (and a lot of spiritual books) is meant to be an allegory that you can use to reach far beyond what you ever imagined. For example, a simple carpenter's son named Jesus told us that "Everything is possible for him who believes".

Wow.

That answers absolutely nothing.

You want to claim that what you're doing is not indoctrination, but what you just practiced in this little exercise was something that would only be expected purely out of indoctrination.  You didn't answer or account for the problem, you made a really inept attempt at a whimsical dismissive statement that is a platitude at best.  This is only going to dutifully confuse a child and likely to the benefit of the person trying to indoctrinate that child since its going to come from a perceived authority ( you ).  This is a rhetorical tactic meant to confuse and a red herring to the blatant problem of there not being any evidential reason to believe in the first place.

[YY]

Simplest is to realize that the most obnoxious, stupid, insulting, etc. theists are usually members of teensy tiny, cultish churches that believe not only are we immoral, god-hating, etc. atheists evil and wrong and a bad influence on children, worse than pedophile priests, but they are the only †TRUE CHRISTIANS†©®™, and the rest of Christianity are just posers with a one-way ticket to 'hell'.

They tend to want to say there are 'two billion Christians', and 'how can two BILLION Christians be wrong', ignoring the fact that there are over four billion NON-CHRISTIANS, and also that they themselves believe approximately TWO BILLION Christians are completely wrong, not being annoying little fucktards like themselves who give an absolute reek to Christianity in general.

Wow, I misread this and put "atheist" where "theist" was and it kinda described a few people on this board . . .

[YY]

You want to claim that what you're doing is not indoctrination, but what you just practiced in this little exercise was something that would only be expected purely out of indoctrination.  You didn't answer or account for the problem, you made a really inept attempt at a whimsical dismissive statement that is a platitude at best.  This is only going to dutifully confuse a child and likely to the benefit of the person trying to indoctrinate that child since its going to come from a perceived authority ( you ).  This is a rhetorical tactic meant to confuse and a red herring to the blatant problem of there not being any evidential reason to believe in the first place.

Did you really want me to go into an hour long discussion of why the bible is allegorical and how the "Jesus" figure inspires from a humble state?  This was a very quick answer.

And I do NOT claim that I am not indoctrinating my son. Why do you guys keep spreading falsehoods?

So what if there is no evidence? The teachings are the key. If my son learns not to play with matches from a teddy bear cartoon, does that not make the lesson any more relevant?

[jetson]

And I do NOT claim that I am not indoctrinating my son. Why do you guys keep spreading falsehoods?

So what if there is no evidence? The teachings are the key. If my son learns not to play with matches from a teddy bear cartoon, does that not make the lesson any more relevant?

Perhaps, if you give it even a small amount of rational thought, you can answer this one quite easily without assistance.  Judging by your responses so far, I won't hold my breath.

The teachings are the key.  Wouldn't it be nice if that were true for Christians!

[screwtape]

What are you going to do? Kick my ass?

Do you think you deserve it?  Do you think you would consider it yourself if some asswipe treated you the way you have treated me?

Let's examine this again.

Yes, lets do.  But let me add back the parts you deliberately edited out.  They will be in bold.

How can you justify murder even coming to mind?

I only know of a few people who can control what thoughts they have.  They can only do it for a few minutes at a time and they have spent years training themselves.

To answer your question, because it is the simplest, most direct and primitive solution. How do you fix a problem with ants in your kitchen?  Get rid of the ants.  How about if you have mice?  Get rid of the mice.  What about butthole religious people who want to base your government on a 2000 year old anthology of hebrew myths?  Get rid of them.

It is not a real solution or a practical solution (mainly because we don't have the political power to make it happen) or a moral solution (maybe debatable).  But it is often the first thing that pops into our 250,000 year old monkey brains. 

So, in short, this is what I'm reading:

Let's (atheists) get rid of butthole religious people like we would get rid of ants or mice,

Well, you couldn't get one word into it without completely fucking it up.  Bravo, fucktard.  It was not a suggestion, like, "hey everyone, let's do this because its a great idea."  It was in response to a question.  See, fucko, I was not saying what an awesome thing it would be.  I was explaining an impulse, an urge, a thought process.  I understand it.  I also condemned it.

Either you do not understand that, in which case you must be retarded, or you do understand it and are some kind of asshole.  Right now all indications point to the asshole option.

(or maybe just yours judging by the way you react to anonymous people who post on message boards?)

Could be.  But I doubt it.  I find it ironic since I think you are the one with the poor behavior.  Let's tally, shall we?

fucko (that's you) has:

• compared me to Sarah Palin
• said I was inciting violence
• failed to report that to the admin staff (that's the appropriate course of action when someone seems to be threatening violence), which tells me you are just throwing around insults you know are untrue
• has twice taken my posts completely out of context
• doubled down on being a douche rather than apologize when shown wrong

Screwtape has:

• asked for clarification twice
• explained why you were wrong
• asked for an apology
• only started to get nasty when you were apparently ignoring my requests

So, there ya go.  I'll let others judge who has reacted how.

[Hatter23]

What are you going to do? Kick my ass?

Do you think you deserve it?  Do you think you would consider it yourself if some asswipe treated you the way you have treated me?

Let's examine this again.

Yes, lets do.  But let me add back the parts you deliberately edited out.  They will be in bold.

How can you justify murder even coming to mind?

I only know of a few people who can control what thoughts they have.  They can only do it for a few minutes at a time and they have spent years training themselves.

To answer your question, because it is the simplest, most direct and primitive solution. How do you fix a problem with ants in your kitchen?  Get rid of the ants.  How about if you have mice?  Get rid of the mice.  What about butthole religious people who want to base your government on a 2000 year old anthology of hebrew myths?  Get rid of them.

It is not a real solution or a practical solution (mainly because we don't have the political power to make it happen) or a moral solution (maybe debatable).  But it is often the first thing that pops into our 250,000 year old monkey brains. 

So, in short, this is what I'm reading:

Let's (atheists) get rid of butthole religious people like we would get rid of ants or mice,

Well, you couldn't get one word into it without completely fucking it up.  Bravo, fucktard.  It was not a suggestion, like, "hey everyone, let's do this because its a great idea."  It was in response to a question.  See, fucko, I was not saying what an awesome thing it would be.  I was explaining an impulse, an urge, a thought process.  I understand it.  I also condemned it.

Either you do not understand that, in which case you must be retarded, or you do understand it and are some kind of asshole.  Right now all indications point to the asshole option.

So, there ya go.  I'll let others judge who has reacted how.

It is like when Scott Adams stated rape is natural, and to deny that impulse is frustrating. Yet that impulse isn't good and needs to be denied to live in a civilized society.

People went apeshit on him, even though he stated the truth, but thousands assumed he made the naturalistic fallacy....when in no way shape or form, did he do so. The readers made the naturalistic fallacy, because of agenda(poitical correctness). YY did exactly the same, because of agenda(Atheists are wrong).

[Hatter23]

3) I don't have proof.

Then it all boils downs to an appeal to ignorance. There is nothing seperating your belief from any other god belief. You might wax poetically about the term "allegory" and "Reach beyond yourself" but, ultimately, to use a peotic allegory, the mystery box is empty.

[gonegolfing]

You may love who you are, but it is arrogance to think that you owe it to others to learn your perspectives with the intention of them being being just like you or having the same perspectives. Your son will only benefit from the truth and the right decisions that he makes out of those truths.

gonegolfing, I see that you are very passionate about your pov. In reading what you wrote, it also seems that you are doing the same as me in thinking that "your" way is the best, but you don't provide any data backing these claims. And don't you think it's a little presumptuous to tell other people how to raise their children?

Come come now my little indoctrinating friend, you know nothing of my passion. And don't fucking well turn this back on me. But I am indeed telling you that your way is wrong, immoral in fact, and that accepting the facts of reality and applying rational thinking to them is a moral duty when it comes to the teaching of your child in the home. There is no better way than the rational way.
Go find the damn data yourself, you know it's there, and it's clear, and not to far from those fogged up eyes of yours (don't get lazy, I hate doing other peoples work  ).
No, it's not pressumptuous, and if you think that the abuse of a child's mind by its parent is off limits to the chastisement of others, or even the legal system, then you need to think again there Skippy. It's one thing for you to toss this salad of nonsense around in your own mind, put on your favorite dressing, and then feast on it, but if I find out your forcing your naive child to eat the same salad ? .......Then it's on baby 

Can you guarantee that your son will be the perfect theist with the information you give him ??

Please show me anyone who can.

That's right. Not even your supposed jeezuz was the perfect son.

Don't arrogantly think that your kid couldn't be one of them based on your love of yourself and the fact that you've filled his head with your perfect perspectives.

Haven't said anything of the sort. But, would it please you to know that I was raised Catholic with Catholic roots that go back to my Grandmother who had 8 kids and 22 grandkids and NONE of us or her kids spouses have ever been in jail? Total side bar, but that's pretty amazing right?

I'm sorry you felt you had to jump from one sinking ship to another sinking ship But I'll tip my hat to that family statistic. At the same time though, and speaking of the data you need, it's too bad and quite sad that our prisons are in fact jambed with bible thumping and god believing, and at the very least religiously affiliated inmates(72%), who more than likely got their start to life by being forced by their parents into the sunday school class rooms of the world. Did a lot of good didn't it ? 
The practice of religion has never put a person in prison. But the lack of its power in practice leaves the weak of mind individual, who counts on it, helpless in staying out.

Don't be a dick like others and please leave your child's mind alone. It's your moral duty to do so.

Is it me or do you sound like the morality police?

Your damn right I'm the morality police and when I see immoral behaviour I call it 

Turn around:--your getting cuffed !

Cheers

I'm glad we ended on a civil note.

As always 

[YY]

Screwtape,

I still disagree with your assessment even with the post in its entirety. This would have been easily avoided if you just started your response to curiousgirl with "I do not condone violence, but here's why I think it can be justified to some". As stated before, when you put your disclaimer several posts beyond your original statement, it can be taken by some (like myself) as incitement.

[YY]

It is like when Scott Adams stated rape is natural, and to deny that impulse is frustrating. Yet that impulse isn't good and needs to be denied to live in a civilized society.

People went apeshit on him, even though he stated the truth, but thousands assumed he made the naturalistic fallacy....when in no way shape or form, did he do so. The readers made the naturalistic fallacy, because of agenda(poitical correctness). YY did exactly the same, because of agenda(Atheists are wrong).

This is similar but different.  If Scott Adams applied this with a wide paint brush, it's understandable that people may have disagreed.

I merely pointed out that Screw was like Sarah Palin. When someone says Let's wipe em out like bugs but does not preface it with "I don't condone this" or "What the original poster was referring to was . . .", the post reads as originating from Screw.

When two separate backtracks in context are necessary to understand the full meaning, wouldn't it be logical that the post might be misunderstood by some, even just a few, rather than my pointing it out being purely agenda driven?

And I'd have the same stance if screw were a Christian.

[YY]

Then it all boils downs to an appeal to ignorance. There is nothing seperating your belief from any other god belief. You might wax poetically about the term "allegory" and "Reach beyond yourself" but, ultimately, to use a peotic allegory, the mystery box is empty.

I don't have the proof you're looking for. I don't have solid, scientific evidence that God exists. I can't trace the remains with carbon dating. I will not be able to use math to determine its existence.

My "proof" is based on the effect God has on people.

Without God, my life goes like this ----

With God, my life now goes like this ----

I like my life with God better than my life without God. I have proof of the reasons why I like my life better with God than without.

I know this is true for me and MANY others. Therefore, if "God" affects so many, wouldn't it be logical that God exists?

[YY]

But I am indeed telling you that your way is wrong, immoral in fact, and that accepting the facts of reality and applying rational thinking to them is a moral duty when it comes to the teaching of your child in the home. There is no better way than the rational way.

Just wondering, do you think I don't include basis in reality and rationality? Sometimes I wonder if people get so heated at atheists thinking that all we talk about is God God God. Somewhat like Jesus Camp? You DO know that about 95% of the time, I'm not talking about God? I pray when I remember and my prayer is something like "Thank you God for everything. Thank you for everything that shows up in my world and how I show up in it.". And then I go about my daily business of math, science, history, etc. My wife meditates, so she probably has an extra 1-5% on me. But don't get me wrong, we aren't out of touch with reality. We take medicine. We go to hospitals. We watch American Idol. We are NORMAL.

I get this from the way you and another respond to me raising my child with God in his life. It's as if you're about to call child protection. I sometimes wonder if you think I'll be locking him in the basement chained to the floor until he reads 10 books of the bible before I let him out for bread and water.