Author Topic: The Uncaused Cause  (Read 4962 times)

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Offline relativetruth

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #87 on: October 08, 2011, 10:39:50 AM »

Science goes as far back as the Planck epochWiki, the earliest period of time. I admit that any description of anything "before" can only be inferred.

If there is a "before" the Planck epoch then time did not start at the BB.
As you and other posters have stated the BB is a singularity where our current science breaks down. 
It is not just that what happens before the Planck epoch is undefined it may actually be unknowable in a logical sense.

Human logical thinking relies fundamentally on cause and effect with the whole 'if x then y' structure and of course 'time' is the key ingredient.

How can you reverse the clock back past a singularity to 'infer' anything?

Godel showed that
paradoxes always exist
 so we have to live with seemingly logically inconsistent occurances like 'uncaused causes', 'cold fusion', Glen Beck, ....

 
 
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #88 on: October 17, 2011, 12:21:10 AM »
Without being caused, apparently.  Funny how the only instance of actual creation we have ever observed in the universe...doesn't need a cause.

But they need a vacuum. And that vacuum does not come from nothing.... it is not nothing....


Online Azdgari

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #89 on: October 17, 2011, 12:27:23 AM »
What is nothing?  Do we have a sample of it to examine for how it behaves?
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Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #90 on: October 17, 2011, 12:53:13 AM »
What is nothing?  Do we have a sample of it to examine for how it behaves?

of course not. nothing does not behave at all, since it is the absence of any thing. Since nothing has no properties, and cannot do something, it is logical to deduce, there must have been always something, that existed. Absolutely nothing cannot give rise to something, so , unless, our universe existed without beginning ( and we have good reasons to believe that could not be so ), we can deduce logically, our unverse had a cause.

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #91 on: October 17, 2011, 01:11:36 AM »
What causes specific virtual particles to come into being?
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Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #92 on: October 17, 2011, 01:40:15 AM »
What causes specific virtual particles to come into being?

Vacuum fluctuations. Which are not nothing. A Vacuum is something real, and existing. And it needs space to exist.

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #93 on: October 17, 2011, 02:11:03 AM »
Vacuum fluctuations, eh?  Odd, I thought they were vacuum fluctuations.

Regardless, what causes the fluctuations?
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Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #94 on: October 17, 2011, 02:51:36 AM »
Vacuum fluctuations, eh?  Odd, I thought they were vacuum fluctuations.

no , they are virtual particles, caused by vacuum fluctuations.

Quote
Regardless, what causes the fluctuations?

the vacuum. :)

Offline plethora

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #95 on: October 17, 2011, 04:48:03 AM »
Godexists .... I agree that a vacuum is not 'absolute nothing'. It still exists within the framework of spacetime and is subject to fluctuations happening at a quantum level.

However, I disagree with your assessment about virtual particles being caused by the vacuum.

We know that in between elementary particles (i.e. quarks) there is empty space (vaccuum). We know the vacuum fluctuates. This does not mean that the vacuum itself causes the fluctuations. That's circular. It just fluctuates with no apparent cause.

These fluctuations are fields of basic force interactions. They can be electric or magnetic force fields. These fields are called 'virtual particles'.

So the vacuum fluctuates and these fluctuations manifest as various types of force fields (virtual particles). They come into existence and, as they encounter each other in opposing forces, they annihilate each other out of existence.

This happens... but without any apparent cause and also completely randomly.

Although this happens within the framework of spacetime, it is not spacetime itself that is causing the fluctuations either.

Radioactive decayWiki is a better, more clear example of how something can happen without a cause, completely spontaneously.

About the universe coming from nothing, we don't know. It may very well be that the framework required for the universe's beginning to happen has always existed. But science has yet to define or even detect what, if anything, that framework may be.

Given your username, I suppose you are going to posit that a 'god' exists and it created the universe?
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Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #96 on: October 17, 2011, 11:59:54 AM »

About the universe coming from nothing, we don't know.

We don't need to know, to understand how irrational this option actually is. From absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. Period.



Quote
It may very well be that the framework required for the universe's beginning to happen has always existed.

" always " requires time. Time, that acording to the big bang theory, was created at the Big Bang.

Quote
Given your username, I suppose you are going to posit that a 'god' exists and it created the universe?

I have no doubt about that.

Offline Whateverman

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #97 on: October 17, 2011, 12:25:01 PM »
From absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. Period.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #98 on: October 17, 2011, 12:54:18 PM »
I have no doubt about that.

Not having doubt - having certainty - is a dangerous and stupid position to take.  Particularly since the universe does not change according to your convictions.
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Offline Cyberia

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #99 on: October 17, 2011, 01:31:42 PM »
From absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. Period.

The Uncertainty Principle disagrees with you. 
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Offline Whateverman

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #100 on: October 17, 2011, 04:12:44 PM »
While I tend to think Godexists is full of it, keep in mind that the uncertainty principle applies to space-time aka. stuff that already exists.  As far as I understand it, the "nothing" that fundamentalists speak of doesn't actually exist in this universe.

It was this thought (ie. no such thing as "nothing") that kept me from mentioning beta radiation and other phenomenon in which uncaused events take place.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #101 on: October 17, 2011, 04:20:59 PM »
..........So, it seems like people are saying that there could never have been a point where there was truly a void or total "nothingness" else that state would have persisted endlessly. Therefore, SOMETHING(s) has always been in existence. Perhaps 14.6 billions years is a gross undercalculation of the age of matter and energy. Who really knows? The multiverse theories are starting to sound more and more reasonable the more I think about all this..................

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #102 on: October 17, 2011, 04:35:53 PM »
We don't need to know, to understand how irrational this option actually is. From absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. Period.
Who says the universe arose from nothing?  Who says there was nothing before the universe as we came to know it came to be?  I think the idea that the Big Bang singularity came from nothing is a misunderstanding of what the actual science says.

" always " requires time. Time, that acording to the big bang theory, was created at the Big Bang.
I think you might find that the actual Big Bang theory states that we can extrapolate the expansion of the universe back to an arbitrary point (based on time, T) when all the stuff of our universe was concentrated in an infinitely small point of infinite density, at T = 0.  That does not necessarily mean that time did not exist before T = 0.  It also does not mean that the Big Bang singularity was truly of infinite smallness or density, because infinity is not possible based on universal laws as we understand them.  It does not even mean that the singularity contained everything there was in the universe, just everything we have observed in the universe, because anything that was not inside the singularity will have been pushed away by the expansion of space at an inherent value greater than c.  So either universal laws were drastically different before T = 0, or else our extrapolation cannot be followed to its logical beginning[1].

I have no doubt about that.
Then I pity you.  When discussing something fundamentally unknowable, doubt is unavoidable.  To claim that one has no doubt about something for which they have no proof[2] of is to build their belief on a foundation of sand.  One of the greatest strengths of science is that we cannot ever be sure that we have it perfectly correct, so we generally avoid the trap of claiming that our current scientific understanding is all there is.  In other words, we always have room to continue building our understanding.
 1. Note that this does not invalidate the Big Bang theory, because the fundamental part of the theory states that the universe expanded from a super-dense, super-hot, super-small singularity - not that any of those were ever equal to infinity.
 2. objective and verifiable, that can be confirmed independently regardless of preexisting beliefs.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 04:37:47 PM by jaimehlers »

Offline Zankuu

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #103 on: October 17, 2011, 04:39:43 PM »
..........So, it seems like people are saying that there could never have been a point where there was truly a void or total "nothingness" else that state would have persisted endlessly. Therefore, SOMETHING(s) has always been in existence. Perhaps 14.6 billions years is a gross undercalculation of the age of matter and energy. Who really knows? The multiverse theories are starting to sound more and more reasonable the more I think about all this..................

TOT, that's about where I stand as well. A cause that was not caused is a contradiction, and stating that a complex being created a first cause makes things unnecessarily more complex. Every cause can be explained by its antecedent. It's our calculations of the past that are and may always be limited. I think it's more reasonable to say things just exist.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #104 on: October 17, 2011, 04:45:14 PM »
How do you know this?

What a question..... Absolutely nothing is the absence of any thing, and has therefore no potentialities.....

Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #105 on: October 17, 2011, 04:47:14 PM »
I have no doubt about that.

Not having doubt - having certainty - is a dangerous and stupid position to take.  Particularly since the universe does not change according to your convictions.

when enough evidence is on hand, we can eliminate doubts, and a strong conviction takes place. Thats not a stupid position at all. I don't see your point. Do you have any doubt, the sun will rise tomorrow ? Not ?

Offline Omen

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #106 on: October 17, 2011, 04:50:58 PM »
Do you have any doubt, the sun will rise tomorrow ? Not ?

Actually, at some point the 'sun' will not rise again.

Plus, screwtape is talking about god claims, which are not objectively verifiable through observable data.  The orbital movements of the earth around the sun and the light that streams from the sun ARE objectively verifiable through observable data.  It is really dishonest to conflate the two.
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Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2011, 04:55:53 PM »
From absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. Period.

The Uncertainty Principle disagrees with you.

healty rational thinking disagrees with you.......

As John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment, ". . . the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440). The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2011, 06:26:41 PM »
From absolutely nothing, nothing can arise. Period.

How do you know this?
well except his God .....he must have come from something......he had siblings,there were other Gods at the time,the earth was flat,virus's and germs were his wraith,not biological.........then the funny thing they do as Christians is ignore the OT and all it's rules except when it explains a point they are trying to make. Not that it's true because it is written,or there would still be slaves,rapists marrying their victims,no Sunday shopping(sabbath)............
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2011, 06:29:34 PM »
I have no doubt about that.

Not having doubt - having certainty - is a dangerous and stupid position to take.  Particularly since the universe does not change according to your convictions.

when enough evidence is on hand, we can eliminate doubts, and a strong conviction takes place. Thats not a stupid position at all. I don't see your point. Do you have any doubt, the sun will rise tomorrow ? Not ?
what is this evidence you speak of? care to share it in detail?
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Offline Cyberia

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2011, 06:35:52 PM »

The Uncertainty Principle disagrees with you.

healty rational thinking disagrees with you.......

As John Barrow and Frank Tipler comment, ". . . the modern picture of the quantum vacuum differs radically from the classical and everyday meaning of a vacuum-- nothing. . . . The quantum vacuum (or vacuua, as there can exist many) states . . . are defined simply as local, or global, energy minima (V'(O)= O, V"(O)>O)" ([1986], p. 440). The microstructure of the quantum vacuum is a sea of continually forming and dissolving particles which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence. A quantum vacuum is thus far from nothing, and vacuum fluctuations do not constitute an exception to the principle that whatever begins to exist has a cause.

I'm not talking about quantum vacuum fluctuations.  Those are part of space-time, which began at the BB.  I'm talking about Time-Energy Uncertainty as defined by the Uncertainty Principle.

Delta-T * Delta-E > h

Before the BB, Delta-T is ZERO, since time does not exist.  Therefore the uncertainty in Energy is INFINITE.  You CAN get something from nothing (and in fact, will) provided you do not have Time (and that condition existed "prior" to the BB)
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Offline Godexists

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2011, 09:54:34 PM »
Before the BB, Delta-T is ZERO, since time does not exist.  Therefore the uncertainty in Energy is INFINITE.  You CAN get something from nothing (and in fact, will) provided you do not have Time (and that condition existed "prior" to the BB)

i don't understand what you meant to say with " Before the BB, Delta-T is ZERO, since time does not exist.  Therefore the uncertainty in Energy is INFINITE. ". What has one thing to do with the other ?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2011, 10:05:27 PM »
It's like position and momentum.  If you know with absolute certainty something's position, the uncertainty in its momentum has to be infinite.

Though, this is the first I've heard of time-energy uncertainty.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2011, 11:49:30 PM »
Before the BB, Delta-T is ZERO, since time does not exist.  Therefore the uncertainty in Energy is INFINITE.  You CAN get something from nothing (and in fact, will) provided you do not have Time (and that condition existed "prior" to the BB)

i don't understand what you meant to say with " Before the BB, Delta-T is ZERO, since time does not exist.  Therefore the uncertainty in Energy is INFINITE. ". What has one thing to do with the other ?
Time still does not exist,it is a human concept used to gauge what we do while we are alive.....cavemen hardly gave a fuck about time,but your boss does
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Offline Cyberia

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #114 on: October 18, 2011, 01:21:00 AM »
Soon we will judge angels.

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Uncaused Cause
« Reply #115 on: October 18, 2011, 07:45:56 AM »
Not having doubt - having certainty - is a dangerous and stupid position to take.  Particularly since the universe does not change according to your convictions.

when enough evidence is on hand, we can eliminate doubts, and a strong conviction takes place. Thats not a stupid position at all. I don't see your point. Do you have any doubt, the sun will rise tomorrow ? Not ?

You should not ever eliminate doubt.  Then sun is easily observed.  The earth and its rotation is easily observed.  We have evidence of this and as you point out, that grants us a degree of certainty.  However, there are still uncertainties involved.  Perhaps a gigantic meteor we have not detected, or a heretofore unknown phenomenon in the sun that makes it unstable or emit a deadly burst of microwaves.  Nefarious elements of the Paki government hand over a nuke to islamic radicals triggering a nuclear war.  Any of these could cause the sun to not rise for us in the morning, however certain we may feel.

We know things.  But we should be humble about what we know and allow for reality to change our minds.  In light of that spirit, certitude is a counterproductive emotion.  I'm not talking about checking first principles before getting out of bed in the morning or brain in a jar scenarios.  That is no way to live.  I'm talking about knowing that what we know is a tenuous model that is subject to change.

You stand on even more tenuous ground.  A god who hides beyond time and space, who leaves no footprints, who will not deign to be tested, who ambiguously answers prayers with "yes, no, wait".  Your philosophysizing is nice, but unless (until) you can check it against reality, it should be taken as seriously as Sasquatch or Area 51 conspiracy theories. 

So my point, young buck, is if you want to say you believe in god, that is your prerogative, unjustified as I find it.  But to say you have certitude about it, well, then you have adopted an idiot's position.  And frankly, it sounds as if the lady doth protest too much.


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