Author Topic: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English  (Read 376 times)

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Offline rickymooston

God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« on: September 18, 2011, 11:20:04 AM »
The use of King James's English during prayer is one of the most humurous Chrisitan practices I can think of

Muslims speaking Arabic makes some sense; i.e., Mohammed wrote the Qu'ran in Arabic. In theory, the interpretation of the text is less corrupted if its untranslated. (Sadly, most Muslim's first language isn't the Arabic of the Koran and thus, they are mostly still working from a poor translation but done by themselves rather than a professional.)

Christianity's scripture was written in:
Hebrew
Greek
Coptic

Eventually the church standardized on Latin.

Hundreds of years later, a bunch of guys were forced into a room for a short period of time and told to agree on the translation. The King James bible was born

Somehow, this rushed work is the standard not only people get their text from but definiing the language they think God talks.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2011, 01:21:22 PM »
Please to excuse pedantic correction from humble servant professor:

Muhammed was illiterate[1] and did not write the Quran. It, like the bible, was all oral tradition. It is a really long epic prose poem in classical Arabic that, yes, nobody speaks today. God revealed his word in Arabic to Big Momo, who then recited it to other people, starting with his long-suffering first wife. During his lifetime scholars began record it in written form.[2]   

Within a few decades there were many competing versions of the Quran[3] and one caliph decided on the definitive version, kinda like the King James bible. Probably because the bible was such an incoherent mess, the Quranic scholars made sure to clean up as many of the contradictions as they could, making the Quran a more consistent work. Well, consistent, that is, for a completely mythical confabulation based on the visions of a charismatic guy who spent too much time out in the desert sun.....
 1. Muslims say it is clearly a miracle from Allah that he was able to recite all this poetry with no formal education, conveniently forgetting the long-standing Arabic oral tradition of memorizing and passing poetic stories down through the centuries.
 2. Oh, yes, I am sure that there were no changes made along the way!
 3. See footnote above!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2011, 03:00:20 PM »
The use of King James's English during prayer is one of the most humurous Chrisitan practices I can think of


So true. It's one of many symptoms that comes with not thinking deeply enough about what you are doing. These idiots spew their stupid brainless bullshit and they look like Goddamn fools. And, they get offended by the use of certain words. I would rather have a god that goes around saying "Suck my dick!" than an asshole who floods planets that have helpless creatures on them.

If any of you mindless Goddamn Christian idiots are reading this, you deserve to be ridiculed. I'm comin' for ya.
Enough with your bullshit.
. . . Mr. Friday . . . that post really is golden.

Offline rickymooston

Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2011, 03:14:31 PM »
I'm lazy, I answered first by memory and then checked facts in wiki

Muhammed was illiterate[1] and did not write the Quran. It, like the bible, was all oral tradition.
 1. 

I know this. Just plump forgot. The kuran was spoken by him in Arabic and written down by somebody else (one of 60 companions) in Arabic.



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Muslims say it is clearly a miracle from Allah that he was able to recite all this poetry with no formal education, conveniently forgetting the long-standing Arabic oral tradition of memorizing and passing poetic stories down through the centuries.

The Kur'an was not an oral tradition; it was written down as Mohammed recited it. I don't know if there was an Arab tradition of memorizing prior to that but certainly people do memorize and recite the koran.

The kur'an was complied into one by by Abu Bakr apparently.

As for the bible, it was an oral tradition or parts of it were. (The New Testament was not one tho; it was a fragment of writings and of letters, copied over the years as Christians struggle not to be burned, eaten by lions or otherwised executed by Nero's friends)

Quote
It is a really long epic prose poem in classical Arabic that, yes, nobody speaks today.

It was 114 suras to be precise. Each of which would be a poem.

Quote
God revealed his word in Arabic to Big Momo, who then recited it to other people, starting with his long-suffering first wife. During his lifetime scholars began record it in written form.[2]
 2. Oh, yes, I am sure that there were no changes made along the way!

Unsure what his wife felt about him; it is not recorded. She wasn't the only one writting down what he said.

As I understand it, he spoke, somebody wrote it down.

Abu Bakr apparently compiled them into a book.   

Quote
Within a few decades there were many competing versions of the Quran[3] and one caliph decided on the definitive version, kinda like the King James bible.
 3. See footnote above!

This is news to me.


Quote
Probably because the bible was such an incoherent mess, the Quranic scholars made sure to clean up as many of the contradictions as they could, making the Quran a more consistent work. Well, consistent, that is, for a completely mythical confabulation based on the visions of a charismatic guy who spent too much time out in the desert sun.....

You don't seem to believe that Allah is the one true God or that Mohammad was his prophet. I'm going to guess that you eat pork and drink alcohol.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 03:16:23 PM by rickymooston »
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2011, 09:54:04 AM »
I'm reminded of something I read in a book, which had someone (not a particularly smart someone) observe that the reason foreigners seemed stupid is because they had to translate from the 'real' language they thought in to the 'gabble' they actually spoke.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2011, 10:49:57 AM »
"The Kur'an was not an oral tradition; it was written down as Mohammed recited it."

I'm not saying that the Quran was an oral tradition. I know it was written down during Momo's lifetime. I am saying that a lot of what Muhammed "recited" was from other oral texts, ie stories from the OT and NT, etc. He did not have to be educated or literate to be familiar with poetic style or ancient stories. Traditionally the Arab cultural art form was the memorization and recitation of epic poetry. He was raised in that tradition.

I am trying to make the point that he did not have to be channeling Allah to produce the Quran. Now, if he had shown up from Brazil or New Zealand in the year 700 CE, and started spontaneously reciting stories from ancient Middle Eastern texts, that might be evidence for some supernatural influence.

And yes to pork, no to alcohol.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline rickymooston

Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2011, 06:25:27 PM »
I am saying that a lot of what Muhammed "recited" was from other oral texts, ie stories from the OT and NT, etc.

In Mohammad's time, all these texts were written down. Do you have references suggesting that the Jews and Christians of that time actually relied on oral tradition?

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He did not have to be educated or literate to be familiar with poetic style or ancient stories. Traditionally the Arab cultural art form was the memorization and recitation of epic poetry. He was raised in that tradition.

Again, references for this this? You are making a rather interesting point.

I don't have references but my understanding had been that he intereacted with some Jews and Christians; e.g., his uncle.

Quote
I am trying to make the point that he did not have to be channeling Allah to produce the Quran.

That is a given.  ;) No effort is in my opinion required to suggest a natural explanation for the Kuran. The idea I was conveying was that the Muslims have some justification in relying on a standard; whereas, American Christians really don't.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2011, 01:17:39 PM »
My main references are the texts I use in the Middle East class I teach.For example, a passage in Goldschmidt's  Concise History of the Middle East (p.24) describes the pre-Islamic Arab culture and emphasizes the importance of oral epic poetry as an art form. You can read it here:
http://www.amazon.com/Concise-History-Middle-East/dp/0813342759#reader_0813342759

As for the oral texts, most people in Muhammed's time were illiterate, whether they were Christians, Zoroastrians, or traditional polytheists.  I am not sure about the Jews of the time.[1] Even though the OT and NT myths and stories were written down, people still learned them orally from the people who could read and then recited from memory. There are accounts of oral tradition poets who could perform epics that took several days to recite! These guys were the ancient equivalent of today's pop stars.

Muhammed was familiar with lots of different religious traditions, because Mecca at the time was a cosmopolitan trading center with all sorts of folks passing through and hanging around. (He was a caravan driver for his wife's trading company.) But my understanding is that Abu Talib, the uncle who raised and protected him, was a traditional Arab polytheist, not a monotheist Jew or Christian. Abu Talib never officially converted to Islam[2], even though there are Muslim so-called scholars who argue that he said on his deathbed something like "No other god but Allah should be worshipped." So there are Muslims who count that as being a Muslim. Whatever.[3]

Had enough scholarly Islamic nerditude yet? I can do this all day. Actually, I do do this all day....

 
 1.  I know that there is a lot of dispute because Christian so-called scholars try to dick around with the figures to show that stuff in the bible was actually written by the Jewish disciples even though they were uneducated farmers and fishermen, but real scholars estimate 3-10% literacy among urban Jews.
 2. My impression from readings is that Uncle Talib loved his otherworldly nephew but thought he was a bit of an eccentric wackadoodle, what with all his visions and revelations
 3. Is it clear that I don't regard religious scholars who believe the woo is true as real academics?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline rickymooston

Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 08:13:28 PM »
Had enough scholarly Islamic nerditude yet?

No.

Quote
I can do this all day. Actually, I do do this all day....

Cool.  I made some attempts to read a book on it by Black but lost patience every time. Wish I had better questions to ask.

Are there any muslims in your classes?
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: God's language --- Shakespearian/King James's English
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2011, 01:14:14 PM »
Had enough scholarly Islamic nerditude yet?

No.

Quote
I can do this all day. Actually, I do do this all day....

Cool.  I made some attempts to read a book on it by Black but lost patience every time. Wish I had better questions to ask.

Are there any muslims in your classes?

I have lots of Muslim students. Used to be mostly over-privileged young Arab guys; they all left in fear after 9/11. I miss them-- some were very bright and hardworking, some were slackers, nearly all quite nice if narrow-minded and misled. Now they are mainly east African refugees, Somalis mostly. Very different population, more women, less money, more traumatized.

What is funny is that like Christians, Muslims don't often know much about the history of their own religion. Some do poorly in the class because they think they already know it all and don't do the reading. However, once we get beyond the life of Muhammed and the basics of the religion, they don't know anything. Making them read scholarly textbooks on the Middle East, not just the Quran or commentaries on the Quran, is eye-opening to them.

Also, some are sure I am a Muslim, because I understand their worldview and show respect for it, even though I don't wear hijab and am pretty irreverent in class. Others give me literature and try to proselytize to me. Over the years I have gotten more comfortable telling students I don't believe in any religion, but I am interested in learning about them.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.