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Offline EV

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'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« on: September 17, 2011, 04:52:40 PM »
Hi guys :)

I am doing a Philosophy hurdle in a week. At my school, hurdles are exams we take to show that we are getting along okay in our A Level subjects.

My philosophy hurdle is going to be an argument entitled: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'.

Any possible suggestions from a very biased sample of people? ;)

I saw a blog post by Christina Greta on one of these threads, and that has helped immensely.

If there is anybody who wants to contribute a reason for being irritated by religion, or theists contributing counter arguments, that'd be most appreciated!

Thanks in advance, and kind regards,

Elliot x
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Online One Above All

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2011, 05:08:39 PM »
Well, let's see...
Threatening small children with eternal torture, probably scarring them for life in the process? Check
Indoctrinating small children? Check
Making it so some atheists are literally scared of telling anyone they're atheists because of their (theists') hatred and bigotry? Check
Slowing down research into cures for hundreds of diseases that kill and/or cause discomfort[1] to millions? Check

This is just off the top of my head
 1. Including, but not limited to: Pain, loss of memory and loss of motor control
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Offline EV

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 05:19:49 PM »
This is just off the top of my head

I feel exactly the same, I had quite a few of those points already.

Was missing the holding back medical technology one though, thanks :P

Awful Arguments put forward that we disprove time and time again? That one ticks me off.
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- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2011, 05:22:01 PM »
Awful Arguments put forward that we disprove time and time again? That one ticks me off.

Ticks me off too, but it's not harmful, just annoying. Letting their kids die because they pray instead of seeing a doctor or not allowing blood transfusions, on the other hand, is extremely harmful
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2011, 06:42:26 PM »
Put me down for one of the people mad at the scaring little kids thing.  It's really pretty damn sick.

But I am also very mad at the genital mutilation thing, and mad at the whole sexual apartied thing.  By that I mean the fact that most Xian denominations deny some rights to gays...very few churches will marry gays, most will not allow open gays to be clergy.  IMO, every Xian who belongs to a denom that discriminates in any way against gays is an accomplice to this mass discrimination. 

OK, moving along: demonizing Muslims, that's not a good thing. Looked at with a little intellectual distance, Islam isn't much more silly than the dominant forms of Xianity in the USA, and given cultural history of Xian imperialism, Islam is understandable in a certain historical context. 

Distorting history: this might seem petty, but because the dominant history teachers in the world have been mostly Xian, most Xians are grossly ignorant of the atrocities committed in the name of Xianity.  One of the most atrocious Big Lies in the world is that religion has a positive effect on the world. I blame the Xians who have controlled history teaching for the last 1500 years for that.

Finally, I have to say that religion implicitly carries an authoritarian message...pure dominance, pure submission...and thought control.  And Xianity has a special relationship with sadism and torture, not just from the Inquisition, but from the fact that the central image of the religion is one of torture.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2011, 06:52:08 PM »
There would be no reason for being angry if surrounded by theists who:

a) had evidence
b) weren't obnoxious hypocrites

Being surrounded by people who have no evidence [for something], who don't seem to be getting anywhere, won't listen to you, but don't make threats is merely very annoying.
 
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline dloubet

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2011, 07:06:21 PM »
Most conversations with theists are poisoned by the idea that their version of perfect justice decrees that we should burn forever in a lake of fire. How the hell does one get past that? I mean, we only think they're a bit deluded, they think we deserve to be tortured forever.

Denis Loubet

Offline hypagoga

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2011, 07:22:36 PM »
A major problem is having their lies entering the political stream.

Offline Timo

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 03:54:11 AM »
On a personal level, I've been angry at how religion has come between my ability to relate to folks.

For a lot of reasons, I find myself attracted to women who wind up being a bit more religious than they might let on after a few nights out.  Personally, I don't have a problem dating a woman that's religious.  However, they tend to have a problem dating me.  And honestly, I can't blame them.  For me, I'd prefer if they dropped the nonsense but a lot of us believe nonsense things.  So it is what it is.  For them, it's a different issue.  I mean I wonder how you can be with someone and claim to love that person while at the same time believing that this person is destined for hell.  And I've even encountered women that looked at me with genuine fear in their eyes when I told them I didn't believe in God.  For them it's code for amorality.

Also, I've worked on and off in education, and particularly in programs targeted towards at-risk youth where you get a lot of time to interact with the kids on like a casual level.  Religion has led to some kind of awkward situations there.  I remember two kids having this conversation about human origins and asking me, the adult, to settle it.  I went on to explain basically what evolution is and why it's the scientific consensus.  One of the kids then confidently asserted that his priest (who I'd still like to have a chat with as I was under the impression that Catholics were cool with evolution) had told him that, in fact, Adam and Eve were the first people and were created by God.  I'm still not sure, as an educator in a public school system that's desperately afraid of lawsuits, how exactly you're supposed to respond to that.  What are you supposed to say, "Sorry Billy, your priest doesn't know what he's talking about."?


Peace
Nah son...

Offline EV

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 06:46:31 AM »
Most conversations with theists are poisoned by the idea that their version of perfect justice decrees that we should burn forever in a lake of fire. How the hell does one get past that? I mean, we only think they're a bit deluded, they think we deserve to be tortured forever.

God loves everyone, we're safe ;)
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Offline Nick

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 08:21:17 AM »
Im not mad, damn it. Now just get the f*ck out of the way.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Death over Life

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2011, 11:47:50 AM »
Well, these articles are perfect examples of why atheists not only should, but NEEDS to be angry with theism.

Recent Pedophile Priest Case Just Tip of the Criminal Iceberg

Read more: http://digitaljournal.com/article/254857#ixzz1YK9vmrTr

http://digitaljournal.com/article/254857

Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html#ixzz1YKA2PdGE

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

Forget burning in hell as that is an unproven claim. People who have had nothing to do with religion who are innocents (little children), suffer and die because of these nutjobs. One thing I was telling a Christian in a debate is, what would you think and feel if this actually happened to your child as a believer? It was one of my problems about religious people. They really don't care unless it hits home for them.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2011, 12:04:40 PM »
My husband is angry at his Christian parents over how they scared him as a kid. When he was about 9 or 10, his dad told him that their family would be tortured for their faith. He went on to say that even if a family member (like my hubby's mom) was being tortured in front of my hubby, he couldn't renounce his faith. Of course, his mom went along with what his dad said. IMO, that is abuse to tell that to a child.

I'm angry at my parents because they told me that there would be a New World Order where Christians would be tortured and killed if they didn't receive the Mark of the Beast, and I had to be prepared for that. I was the same age as my hubby (about 9) when they told me this. My crazy mom literally told me that she had prophetic dreams where soldiers dressed in all black would jump out of helecopters and take us from our home. I totally believed this as a kid, so I told my kid friends about it. Needless to say, I'll never tell my son shit like that.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline jetson

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2011, 12:09:59 PM »
Wow.  Curiousgirl, that is some scary shit to be told by the people who are responsible for you.  I have never heard of anything like that.

Offline rickymooston

Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2011, 12:26:19 PM »
My philosophy hurdle is going to be an argument entitled: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'.

Honest answer: For the most part, I think life is too short to be an angry atheist.

If you have to argue the point however, its trivially easy to do.

1. Religious wars and persecutions
2. Laws that involve on sect imposing themselves on to others
3. Silly tiffs over putting religious symbols everywhere
4. Annoying people knocking your door

"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2011, 02:35:22 PM »
Wow.  Curiousgirl, that is some scary shit to be told by the people who are responsible for you.  I have never heard of anything like that.

I know. I was physically and mentally abused by my parents (as I have posted in previous threads). You wouldn't believe some of the stuff they have said and done if I told you. Sorry to shock or bother anyone. I went through therapy so I am fine discussing stuff like that without getting too upset. However, I have learned that my parents were very abnormal and would never treat my son the way they treated me.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline rickymooston

Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2011, 03:01:21 PM »
I was physically and mentally abused by my parents (as I have posted in previous threads).

Sorry to hear. I don't think physical abuse is "parr for the course" for most religious people.

As for mental abuse, depends on one's definition. Anyway, if you were physically abused, I'm going to assume, your mental abuse would meet the ordinary definition.

As for the promise of going to hell thing? I don't typically think of that as abuse. The "New World Order" thing? Typically that is the mark of somebody who has been exposed to neo-nazi propaganda and has thus associated this with "ZOG" (Zionist Government"). Its odd how said ideas have creeped into the mainstream quite a lot tho.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline EV

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2011, 03:02:56 PM »

Honest answer: For the most part, I think life is too short to be an angry atheist.

If you have to argue the point however, its trivially easy to do.

Well, that;s a point of View. I have a lot of theist friends I have discussed this with at great length.

1. Religious wars and persecutions

That's a tricky one, they'll thrown straight back at you the example of Stalin and his Marxist philosophy of 'Religion being the 'Opiate of the People', and then killing 100,000 priests, nuns and monks as a result of it. They tend to use that to come back.

I am trying to think of counter-arguments, it's good for me to think from different perspectives (for my philosophy course anyway :P )

2. Laws that involve on sect imposing themselves on to others

That seriously sucks. I can't stand it when people come and tell me that their 'sect' is amazing and brings ultimate happiness yadda yadda....

3. Silly tiffs over putting religious symbols everywhere

Agreed. The Jesus fish eating the Darwin fish bumper sticker just makes me want to punch something. It says that superstition and faith are more valuable than logic and reason...

4. Annoying people knocking your door

Annoying?! I have so much fun with those people... I invite them in, make them coffee and argue with them for 3 hours straight.

Did I ever tell you guys the story about the Jehovah's witness who turned up on my doorstep, tried to convert me and ended up deconverting afterwards?

My proudest atheism-related achievement to date, bar joining this site and becoming one :P

That was a good day.
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Offline EV

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2011, 03:09:58 PM »
Wow.  Curiousgirl, that is some scary shit to be told by the people who are responsible for you.  I have never heard of anything like that.

I know. I was physically and mentally abused by my parents (as I have posted in previous threads). You wouldn't believe some of the stuff they have said and done if I told you. Sorry to shock or bother anyone. I went through therapy so I am fine discussing stuff like that without getting too upset. However, I have learned that my parents were very abnormal and would never treat my son the way they treated me.
Again, I'm sorry to hear this too, and glad you went through counselling. I've had some in my time too, it's so helpful, and I am glad that I had it.

Some people do things because they think they are right, but the lengths that some go to is disturbing.

Well, these articles are perfect examples of why atheists not only should, but NEEDS to be angry with theism.

Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html#ixzz1YKA2PdGE
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

These are more examples of why it's wrong, great link DoL, I found that article really helpful.


.......A friend of a friend killed themselves because they were homosexual and Catholic, they couldn't control their urges, and so hung themselves.

The amount of young lives that religion actually ends up ruining is insane.
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Offline EV

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2011, 03:11:06 PM »
Honest answer: For the most part, I think life is too short to be an angry atheist.

Life is too short to think of a better argument to do... So I chose an easy option. Then decided I needed more examples.
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Offline EV

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2011, 04:00:36 PM »
I mean I wonder how you can be with someone and claim to love that person while at the same time believing that this person is destined for hell.  And I've even encountered women that looked at me with genuine fear in their eyes when I told them I didn't believe in God.  For them it's code for amorality.

This is a good point. I have the opposite reasoning, if I were with a theist (which I am not, my girlfriend is agnostic/atheist), they would certainly not be able to put up with my frequent moaning about how annoyed the school chaplain is making me. (for those who don't know, my school has compulsory chapel, which I usually don't mind going to...)

He tried to say that Jesus loves gay people this morning, it was bloody ridiculous. There are well over ten counts specifically in the Bible condemning the act of homosexuality and saying that homosexuals are destined for hell...

Utterly ridiculous, fallacious and infuriating to listen to. I did NOT approve of his argument.

[see above 3 lines for an example of why a theist would leave me pretty damn quickly :P ]

I know there are exceptions, but I know theists can find it hard to live with people who believe differently to their religion, especially if they get argumentative, and I know for a fact that I am pretty riled when someone contradicts my view with logical fallacies that are unsupportable...

My mum is a Jew, and my dad is a staunch atheist, they get along fine, religion just doesn't get discussed, although my dad did not really approve of mum taking me to Sunday classes at synagogue. It was hit and miss whether he even attended my bar mitzvah... He did though, and I was pleased he was there, even though I now am not entirely convinced of what I learnt.

Basically, I'm trying to say that I think there are a lot more obstacles for couples of differing faith to overcome than same faith couples. Not saying that people can't do it, I know that many of the people on this forum have got partners and close family members with different views.
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- Philosopher John Stuart Mill, from a Parliamentary debate (May 31, 1866);

Offline EV

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2011, 04:01:53 PM »
There would be no reason for being angry if surrounded by theists who:

a) had evidence
b) weren't obnoxious hypocrites


Being surrounded by people who have no evidence [for something], who don't seem to be getting anywhere, won't listen to you, but don't make threats is merely very annoying.

That made me laugh quite a lot, we all know so many.... Just people saying 'I'll pray for you' is the worst possible display of snarkyness.... Utterly infuriating!!!
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2011, 09:32:21 AM »

Honest answer: For the most part, I think life is too short to be an angry atheist.

If you have to argue the point however, its trivially easy to do.

Well, that;s a point of View. I have a lot of theist friends I have discussed this with at great length.

1. Religious wars and persecutions

That's a tricky one, they'll thrown straight back at you the example of Stalin and his Marxist philosophy of 'Religion being the 'Opiate of the People', and then killing 100,000 priests, nuns and monks as a result of it. They tend to use that to come back.


As to my comeback:

Yes. That is true, but the justification for that was the were Stalinists, it wasn't because of their lack of beilief in God. They had their dogma that, were it substantially affecting my life, I would be angry with. However I don't happen to be in in Russia in 1930, so it isn't relevant to me. Listen I'm well beyond being angry with religon for the Crusades, or the Inquisition; I'm angry with it for the harm that it has done in my lifetime, and in my country.



 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Omen

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2011, 09:45:00 AM »
My philosophy hurdle is going to be an argument entitled: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'.

Any possible suggestions from a very biased sample of people? ;)

"Why are you so hateful?"  "Why do atheist hate god?"

These kinds of questions are loaded and they are delivered as a type of incredulous argument, where the implication of your dislike of something invalidates your claim against it.  I think you see these kinds of arguments with all kinds of specious claims like homeopathic medicine or other new age crap.  I always find it funny that when someone makes such an assertion, they are rarely able to coherently identify what is an example of this 'hatred'.  It is as if they unconsciously know that you're careful criticism of the subject isn't really hateful and refuse to cite the specific examples.  Nor are they concerned with the possible justifications for not liking something, that challenges their hyperbole that hatred invalidates your criticism.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2011, 11:46:40 AM »
Hi guys :)

I am doing a Philosophy hurdle in a week. At my school, hurdles are exams we take to show that we are getting along okay in our A Level subjects.

My philosophy hurdle is going to be an argument entitled: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'.

Any possible suggestions from a very biased sample of people? ;)

I saw a blog post by Christina Greta on one of these threads, and that has helped immensely.

If there is anybody who wants to contribute a reason for being irritated by religion, or theists contributing counter arguments, that'd be most appreciated!

Thanks in advance, and kind regards,

Elliot x

Anger is justified when others FORCE you into living your life in accordance with a worldview they hold.

Offline fungusdrool

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2011, 11:54:43 AM »
Anger is pointless. 
It accomplished nothing other than causing stress to the angry and the target.
As such there cannot be a just reason for it.


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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2011, 11:56:12 AM »
Anger is pointless. 
It accomplished nothing other than causing stress to the angry and the target.
As such there cannot be a just reason for it.

Same with a lot of other things. Just because something might cause harm doesn't mean that there's no reason for it
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2011, 12:17:02 PM »
Anger is pointless. 
It accomplished nothing other than causing stress to the angry and the target.
As such there cannot be a just reason for it.

Wrong. Anger has an evolutionary purpose (my bolding):

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/webdocs/HaseltonKetelaar.pdf

Quote
Buss (1989) proposed that negative emotions such as anger and fear may aid an individual in dealing with the attempts of others to interfere with one’s strategic goals: When a source of interference is detected, negative emotions (e.g., anger) can draw attention to the source of interference, mark important events for storage in memory, and activate behavioral routines that serve to minimize current and future interference.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Timo

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Re: 'Why Atheists being Angry is Justified'
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2011, 12:33:49 PM »
This is a good point. I have the opposite reasoning, if I were with a theist (which I am not, my girlfriend is agnostic/atheist), they would certainly not be able to put up with my frequent moaning about how annoyed the school chaplain is making me. (for those who don't know, my school has compulsory chapel, which I usually don't mind going to...)

He tried to say that Jesus loves gay people this morning, it was bloody ridiculous. There are well over ten counts specifically in the Bible condemning the act of homosexuality and saying that homosexuals are destined for hell...

Utterly ridiculous, fallacious and infuriating to listen to. I did NOT approve of his argument.

I don't know that I would share your frustration there.  I think it's fine to say that Jesus loves everyone.  Love the sinner hate the sin and all that good stuff.  It's also worth remembering that despite the the laser like focus on homosexuality by today's religious conservatives, this focus is not something that's always been a part of Christianity or Judaism.  To be sure, homosexuality was considered to be immoral and a kind of excess but it was in the same category as premarital sex and masturbation.  And yet, I don't think that most people would have so much as batted an eyelash if the good chaplain claimed that Jesus still loves the vast majority of straight people that have had sex before marriage.

My mum is a Jew, and my dad is a staunch atheist, they get along fine, religion just doesn't get discussed, although my dad did not really approve of mum taking me to Sunday classes at synagogue. It was hit and miss whether he even attended my bar mitzvah... He did though, and I was pleased he was there, even though I now am not entirely convinced of what I learnt.

Basically, I'm trying to say that I think there are a lot more obstacles for couples of differing faith to overcome than same faith couples. Not saying that people can't do it, I know that many of the people on this forum have got partners and close family members with different views.

Yeah, I think your family's experience is pretty common.  I've got a good friend that's a Muslim and he's been with a Christian girl for years now.  He says that they haven't had any problems thus far and I'm thinking that is mostly because with both of them, their religion is more about tradition than anything else.  I mean he's not a devout Muslim by any stretch of the imagination.  And aside from her outgoing message imploring the caller to "have a blessed day" I'm not sure how Christian she is.  She doesn't even go to church.  And yet, if and when they have a child together, I'm sure this will be an issue. 

Then again, I do know a few people that went to both Hebrew school and Catholic school growing up.


Peace
Nah son...