What will you say to Satan when you burn in hell?

[catbird]

Emily,

This makes you sound like a complete douchebag.

Abusive ad hominems are never acceptable as a tactic to be used in polite discussion. Do I need to invite a Moderator to keep the peace?

[One Above All]

Emily,

This makes you sound like a complete douchebag.

Abusive ad hominems are never acceptable as a tactic to be used in polite discussion. Do I need to invite a Moderator to keep the peace?

Ignorance also makes discussion difficult. Emily wasn't saying "This makes you sound like a complete douchebag therefore your argument is invalid", she was just saying "This makes you sound like a complete douchebag."
Huge difference

[catbird]

Blazikem_rjcf

Ignorance also makes discussion difficult. Emily wasn't saying "This makes you sound like a complete douchebag therefore your argument is invalid

No? then why did she say this,"This makes you sound like a complete douchebag"?  there is no reason to use the phase except as an ad Hominem..

[One Above All]

Blazikem_rjcf

Ignorance also makes discussion difficult. Emily wasn't saying "This makes you sound like a complete douchebag therefore your argument is invalid

No? then why did she say this,"This makes you sound like a complete douchebag"?  there is no reason to use the phase except as an ad Hominem..

It's Blaziken
There are other reasons. For example, I called you ignorant (on this subject anyway), yet I wasn't inferring that all your arguments on every subject are null because of it. I don't know exactly what Emily's reason was, but mine was just because I sometimes point out the obvious without realizing it

[JeffPT]

No one who hasn't been born of the Holy Spirit is a Christian...To be a Christian you MUST be born again..All the rest , someone was born to Christian parents, baptized as a child, went every week to Sunday School and learned about Jesus and God, went on mission trips to help people in the name of Jesus, believed in the creed of the apostles, was confirmed of their church, etc.
means nothing if you have not been born again of the Holy Spirit

I know lots of Christians who would completely disagree with you.  That's whats so fascinating.  None of you can agree with anything.   

What test would you give someone, catbird, to confirm that someone is 'born again', or for that matter, a 'true Christian'?  The entire notion seems utterly ridiculous to me. 

Also, this is a quote from Bart Ehrman from Jesus Interrupted...

In the Gospel of John, chapter 3, Jesus has a famous conversation with Nicodemus in which he says, “You must be born again.” The Greek word translated “again” actually has two meanings: it can mean not only “a second time” but also “from above.” Whenever it is used elsewhere in John, it means “from above” (John 19:11, 23). That is what Jesus appears to mean in John 3 when he speaks with Nicodemus: a person must be born from above in order to have eternal life in heaven above. Nicodemus misunderstands, though, and thinks Jesus intends the other meaning of the word, that he has to be born a second time. “How
can I crawl back into my mother’s womb?” he asks, out of some frustration.
     Jesus corrects him: he is not talking about a second physical birth, but a heavenly birth, from above. This conversation with Nicodemus is predicated on the circumstance that a certain Greek word has two meanings (a double entendre). Absent the double entendre, the conversation makes little sense. The problem is this: Jesus and this Jewish leader in Jerusalem would not have been speaking Greek, but Aramaic. But the Aramaic word for “from above” does not also  mean “second time.” This is a double entendre that works only in Greek. So it looks as though this conversation could not have happened—at least not as
it is described in the Gospel of John.

In other words, the conversation about having to be 'born again' was invented.  It most likely never happened as it is described in John. 

[catbird]

Anfaughlir,

I see. (1) So your god creates creatures deliberately to be destroyed.

 (2)Can you explain by what token you consider that "good"?

(3)Can you explain why I should worship such a creature if I am one of the ones destined for destruction?

1) that is correct... The creator has liberty to create vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor

2) He created the vessels of dishonor for the purpose of perfecting the vessels of honor...

3) First God is not a "creature" because He  is not a "created "being.Second, You have no intention of worshiping Him anyway, so if I were You I wouldn't care.

[Ivellios]

1) that is correct... The creator has liberty to create vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor

So much for freewill. I thought that was part of God's plan that he didn't want robots? That's right, there's as many different opinions as Christians.

2) He created the vessels of dishonor for the purpose of perfecting the vessels of honor...

You were created, intentionally to burn in hell forever and ever for the betterment of someone else. Why did God create such a flawed creation to begin with that required "perfecting?" And why the **** should I care about someone else going to Heaven if I was created for the intent of going to Hell? God can piss off.

3) First God is not a "creature" because He  is not a "created "being.Second, You have no intention of worshiping Him anyway, so if I were You I wouldn't care.

God isn't a creature. He's no more than your Ego and subconsious. You do know that those that wrote the bible knew nothing about the subconsious, so they thought it was "God" talking to them.

[catbird]

JeffPT,

In other words, the conversation about having to be 'born again' was invented.  It most likely never happened as it is described in John.

To be born again is to be born of the Holy Spirit. In the new birth one is born as a new creation, with spiritual eyes to see, spiritual ears to hear, and a heart that can understand the things of the Spirit of God. That is why I said we have the mind of Christ.

[Ivellios]

The heart has no cognative abilities, that's the brain.

heart =/= mind

Edit: Are you going to mention something about the cognative abilities of kidneys too?

[catbird]

Truthseeker,

So much for freewill. I thought that was part of Gods plan that he didn't want robots? That's right, there's as many different opinions as Christians.

The phrase libertarian free will (which is the idea to which  you are referring ) is an oxymoronic locution with no proof of real existence.

[One Above All]

<snip>

So let me get this straight:
Your god is a being which creates imperfect beings, most of which will be tortured for eternity in a lake of fire so the rest can go to heaven. It also does not grant us free will (not in the actual sense of it anyway) to be able to choose to do something so we won't burn in hell. And not only do you worship this being, you think it's good?

You should see a psychiatrist

[catbird]

Truthseeker,

You should expand your vocabulary somewhat..Per Dictionary.com. Also you could use a refresher spelling course. If you intend to graduate.

The heart has no cognative abilities, that's the brain.

3.
the center of the total personality, especially with reference to intuition, feeling, or emotion: In your heart you know I'm an honest man.
4.
the center of emotion, especially as contrasted to the head as the center of the intellect: His head told him not to fall in love, but his heart had the final say.
5.
capacity for sympathy; feeling; affection: His heart moved him to help the needy.

[JeffPT]

To be born again is to be born of the Holy Spirit. In the new birth one is born as a new creation, with spiritual eyes to see, spiritual ears to hear, and a heart that can understand the things of the Spirit of God. That is why I said we have the mind of Christ.

I will ask you again.  What test can you perform on someone in order to determine that they have been 'born in the Holy Spirit'?  In fact, what evidence can you bring to the table that there is a 'Holy Spirit'?  Everything you say here is just meaningless if you can't qualify or quantify it in some way.  I assume YOU think you are 'born again in the Holy Spirit', but how would I know other than you claiming it?

If you put 2 people side by side who both said they were 'born again in the Holy Spirit', what would you do to figure out who was telling the truth or who was lying? 

[One Above All]

Truthseeker,

You should expand your vocabulary somewhat..Per Dictionary.com. Also you could use a refresher spelling course. If you intend to graduate.

The heart has no cognative abilities, that's the brain.

3.
the center of the total personality, especially with reference to intuition, feeling, or emotion: In your heart you know I'm an honest man.
4.
the center of emotion, especially as contrasted to the head as the center of the intellect: His head told him not to fall in love, but his heart had the final say.
5.
capacity for sympathy; feeling; affection: His heart moved him to help the needy.

Funny how you forgot
1.
Anatomy . a hollow, pumplike organ of blood circulation, composed mainly of rhythmically contractile smooth muscle, located in the chest between the lungs and slightly to the left and consisting of four chambers: a right atrium that receives blood returning from the body via the superior and inferior vena cavae, a right ventricle that pumps the blood through the pulmonary artery to the lungs for oxygenation, a left atrium that receives the oxygenated blood via the pulmonary veins and passes it through the mitral valve, and a left ventricle that pumps the oxygenated blood, via the aorta, throughout the body.
2.
Zoology .
a.
the homologous structure in other vertebrates, consisting of four chambers in mammals and birds and three chambers in reptiles and amphibians.
b.
the analogous contractile structure in invertebrate animals, as the tubular heart of the spider and earthworm.

[JeffPT]

3.
the center of the total personality, especially with reference to intuition, feeling, or emotion: In your heart you know I'm an honest man.
4.
the center of emotion, especially as contrasted to the head as the center of the intellect: His head told him not to fall in love, but his heart had the final say.
5.
capacity for sympathy; feeling; affection: His heart moved him to help the needy.

Are you seriously of the mind that the heart has these capabilities?  I'd just like to know what level of education we are dealing with here.  You might be too far gone to be worth dealing with. 

[Ivellios]

cog·ni·tive
? ?[kog-ni-tiv] Show IPA

adjective
1.
of or pertaining to cognition.

2.
of or pertaining to the mental processes of perception, memory, judgment, and reasoning, as contrasted with emotional and volitional processes.

So I put an 'a' instead of an 'i.' Thanks for the personal attack.

Edit: I follow the policy: Everyone makes a typo every once in awhile, so let it be.

edit 2: mind = reasoning

[catbird]

Blaziken_rjfj

   


    Quote

Quote from: catbird on Today at 07:42:34 AM

    <snip>


So let me get this straight:
Your god is a being which creates imperfect beings, most of which will be tortured for eternity in a lake of fire so the rest can go to heaven. It also does not grant us free will (not in the actual sense of it anyway) to be able to choose to do something so we won't burn in hell. And not only do you worship this being, you think it's good?

Where did you get the idea that most of the beings were imperfect. Adam was created perfect. Adam gave his allegiance o another. Thus Adam fell. The entire whole of humanity was in Adam when he fell.  Therefore all humanity fell with him and all are now imperfect. When Adam fell his will was taken captive by Satan.. All humanity from that point forward was doomed to go to hell. But God determined to save as many as He pleased and paid the price for their punishment by suffering in their place and dying on a cross. By this act He himself satisfied the requirement of punishment fo mans disobedience ,thus he is free to extend mercy to them because He Himself paid the debt which they could never pay...

Yes I think it good to worship a Creator who  love me enough to save me from hell

[One Above All]

Where did you get the idea that most of the beings were imperfect. Adam was created perfect. Adam gave his allegiance o another. Thus Adam fell.

I'm not sure you understand the concept of "perfect". It means "without flaws". Ignoring the fact that Adam was created without knowledge of ANYTHING, if he really was created perfect, then the perfect human being CHOSE to eat of the fruit BECAUSE IT WAS RIGHT

Yes I think it good to worship a Creator who  love me enough to save me from hell

Go see a psychiatrist and tell him that you believe that a being which condemns over two thirds of the planet to eternal torture is good

EDIT: And learn my freaking name

[catbird]

Truthseeker,

Yeah, it's always People doing God's work for him. God... what a slacker.

Not true, people who think that they are doing Gods work for Him aren't serving God at all.

Only people through whom God works serve God..

[catbird]

Blaziken_rjfj

Go see a psychiatrist and tell him that you believe that a being which condemns over two thirds of the planet to eternal torture is good

That is a number which you pulled out of your hat. Start  using better data or I will have to ignore your hysterical comments.

[Ivellios]

You give birth to 7[1]. You tell each one that they're you're special snowflake, and that you don't like the other 6. You encourage each of them to fight each other. When they're all done fighting amongst themselves, you take the 6 you didn't pick when you preselected the one you wanted to 'win,' and bind them and get ready to cremate them. You wait for them to wake and burn them alive. You marvel how the conflict "perfected" you preselected favorite.

This is Holy, Just and Good. Because this is a parable of the great All-Loving God.

Edit: There's 1 Billion Christians with all sects added together including Catholicism. The other billion he refered to is muslims that also believe in the same god. You see, the Qu'Ran is considered to be the 3rd testament. As anyone knows, God loves to work in 3's.

1.	one for each billion on Earth

[One Above All]

That is a number which you pulled out of your hat. Start  using better data or I will have to ignore your hysterical comments.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Finish school before you accuse me of lying
EDIT: Note that these are just christians who identify themselves as such. By your definition of a "true" christian, that number is smaller.
Interesting factoid: There are over 30,000 denominations of christianity
EDIT #2: This is the last time I tell you to get my name right before I start reporting you for trolling

[jaimehlers]

Jaimehlers

No one who hasn't been born of the Holy Spirit is a Christian...To be a Christian you MUST be born again..All the rest , someone was born to Christian parents, baptized as a child, went every week to Sunday School and learned about Jesus and God, went on mission trips to help people in the name of Jesus, believed in the creed of the apostles, was confirmed of their church, etc.
means nothing if you have not been born again of the Holy Spirit

Most Christian sects accept that the sacrament of baptism qualifies for being born again.  It is only relatively recently that some Christians have started believing that one has to actually be born 'again', separate from baptism.  The fact that you apparently believe the latter does not mean that it has any validity or that you can dictate to other Christians whether they count as Christians or not.  Besides, if you start dictating things like that to other people, you lose the right to have your complaints taken seriously if it happens to you.

Emily,

Abusive ad hominems are never acceptable as a tactic to be used in polite discussion. Do I need to invite a Moderator to keep the peace?

You have no room to talk, considering that you 'asked' if Emily was a "John Bircher", one of the most rabidly conservative groups in the entire country, and are essentially insinuating that velkyn is a liar.  Your posts may have a veneer of politeness, but the content matters more than the appearance, and I would certainly consider both of the above to be the equivalent of abusive ad hominems.  What you do to others you cannot be taken seriously if you complain about it being done to you, for are you not the one who did it in the first place? 

[Ivellios]

<snip>

You didn't resond to my post on what Jesus himself says how to tell the difference between a True Christian and a poser, while still claiming to know the mind of God or heart or whatever. Remember the believers in Christ were in fear for thier very lives. They had to know beyond a shadow of doubt if that person raising a dead person was a true Christian or a spy of Satan to rout them and have them martyred.

[Ivellios]

Truthseeker,
Not true, people who think that they are doing Gods work for Him aren't serving God at all.

Only people through whom God works serve God..

You only see the people, so how can one tell? Are you able to point out every single hypocrite christian on the planet?

How do you know you are not just thinking you're serving God, but really not?

[Emily]

Yes I think it good to worship a Creator who  love me enough to save me from hell

He didn't save you at all. He used a scare tactic to frighten you into worshiping him because the consequences are just too much for you to bear if you don't worship him, and you've never actually put critical thought into whether or not these two places (heaven and hell) are actually real, or if the man preaching from the pulpit is being truthful and not a blind man leading his sheep towards the grasp of utter delusion.

[Emily]

Emily,

This makes you sound like a complete douchebag.

Abusive ad hominems are never acceptable as a tactic to be used in polite discussion. Do I need to invite a Moderator to keep the peace?

I could've down-karma'd you and put that in the comment section, but I didn't. I mean, four other people already had down-karma'd the comment. I just find it wrong and rude of you to claim someone was never a christian simply because they stopped believing in the christian god. I mean, I was a Truechristian growing up with my own SPAG just like many of the other posters here were.Just because someone doesn't stay a christian doesn't mean they never were one. In fact it makes your god out to sound even worst. That being he doesn't give anyone a way out. Only eternal entrapment.

but yeah, it wasn't an ad hom attack. it was an observation I made.

[Brakeman]

Brakeman,

God smote him. It is generally understood that if god killed you in anger, he wasn't inviting you home for tea and biscuits.

Brakeman. There were specific rules about how to transport the ark. Everyone knew that no one could handle the ark except those who had been assigned to do so. Everyone knew what the penalty was for someone other than those Israelites assigned to transport the ark. An example would be like dad told you not to touch a high amperage 600 volt line UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ,or you will die. Nowhere does the Bible read that the man went to hell nor is it even implied..

Those "specific rules" were god's rules. God created the pothole that the cart hit, god could have made the Arc float in air and not need saving, god could have made the arc out of something indestructible, god could have instantly repaired anything Uzzah did. It was god who killed Uzzah! not electricity. It was god's spite for someone coloring outside the lines, despite doing their best.
It is a clear cut example of god being a shitty vengeful bastard. It is an example of god not caring what is in a man's heart, but of following arbitrary rules that god made up.

How could you argue that god would bring rule-breaker Uzzah to heaven? If god went to the trouble of killing him why would he turn around and give him him heaven? What was the point in killing him?, the only difference in that case between Uzzah and Elijah would be the blink of an eye and some gusts of wind.

Kind David was a murderer and pretty much all around evil person compared to Uzzah, yet one has a glorified lineage, and one is smitten, not by man's hand, not by nature, not by Satan's hand, but by god's hand. How is that fair and just?

[Mr. Blackwell]

To the OP question...

I want my phone call.

or

Pardon me, would you have any Grey Poupn?

Depends on what kind of mood I was in at the time.