What will you say to Satan when you burn in hell?

[catbird]

jaimehlers,

Are you saying that since Paul wrote that letter to a specific group of Christians, it means that it does not apply to anyone else?  Because if you are not saying that, then curiousgirl's point stands.

Who is the author?

[curiousgirl]

curiousgirl,

Catbird, I think "not wanting anyone to perish" is pretty clear. Unless you don't understand the definition of "anyone"

So according to curiousgirl guidelines anyone is a synonym for every individual..No, I don't believe that God doesn't want wicked people to perish.

Then, Catbird, you don't believe your Bible:

  2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

[Emily]

Emily,

Intelligent girls are more depressed because they know what the world is really like. Don't think for a beat it makes her better when you sit her down and tell her it'll be alright. In society she's either a devil or an angel with no in between.

I take it that you are a "John Bircher?'

umm, no. (I will admit I only just now both heard about this group, and only glanced at the wikipedia article for a few seconds) I am pretty far left in my political views from loosening the border to allowing drugs to be legal, etc. Yeah, I have no idea why you'd even ask that question.

[curiousgirl]

Are you saying that since Paul Simon Peter wrote that letter to a specific group of Christians, it means that it does not apply to anyone else?  Because if you are not saying that, then curiousgirl's point stands.

I fixed it for Jaime, Catbird. Now address what Jaime said.

[jaimehlers]

curiousgirl,

So according to curiousgirl guidelines anyone is a synonym for every individual..No, I don't believe that God doesn't want wicked people to perish.

No, it's according to a basic understanding of the English language.  According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, anyone means "any person at all".

[screwtape]

Just a reminder to all participants:  catbird is new here and is still getting used to the way things work.  Please remember that the wwgha site invited her and encouraged her to come share her beliefs.  Let's please be courteous while she learns about us. 

Thanks.

If she indeed does know about Christianity she should know that unless you follow proper guidelines you are in violation of the rules and excluded from fellowship.

Let me axe you a question.  You said there was a rule book.  Do you (or most xians) believe anyone can follow those rules all the time?  In other words, is anyone perfect, or do we all fall short?

And referencing the question I quoted here, sure, if being a member of a group requires certain things and a member cannot fulfill those requirements, then that person is no longer a member.  But that does not mean he or she was never a member.

[Brakeman]

Catbird,

God sent Uzzah to hell for touching the Arc of the Covenant, even though in his heart he was just trying to save it from being dashed into pieces on the stones of the road.

Was this just?

Could you do this to someone if you had that same god in your heart?

 

[catbird]

Brakeman,

God sent Uzzah to hell for touching the Arc of the Covenant, even though in his heart he was just trying to save it from being dashed into pieces on the stones of the road.

Please forgive my lack of knowledge of this incident. Does the Bible record that  God sent Uzzah to hell or does it only read that Uzzah died?

[Anfauglir]

God has compassion on whom He will.Some are created to receive mercy and others for destruction..

I see.  So your god creates creatures deliberately to be destroyed.

Can you explain by what token you consider that "good"?

Can you explain why I should worship such a creature if I am one of the ones destined for destruction?

Hello again catbird.  Just bumping these questions as you seem to have missed them.  Looking forward to discussing these issues with you.

Incidentally....returning to the question in the topic....

Satan ? Why would you say anything to him?

...my answer to the OP would now be "Yahweh decided before I was born that I would end up here, and there was nothing at all I could do about it.  So why are you trorturing ME for Yahweh's decisions?"

[Brakeman]

Brakeman,

Please forgive my lack of knowledge of this incident. Does the Bible record that  God sent Uzzah to hell or does it only read that Uzzah died?

God smote him. It is generally understood that if god killed you in anger, he wasn't inviting you home for tea and biscuits.

However, should someone die for trying to help? Would you kill your loving, faithful follower because he accidentally broke a rule while successfully saving something important to you?

Or was that a d*ck thing to do?

[Ivellios]

curiousgirl,

I'm curious.. Did you start reading at the beginning of the chapter?  If might give you a clue as to the identity of the recipients of the letter.

If it was just meant for a small select group of individuals and not relevant to Christianity as a whole, then it would not be in the Bible. The Bible is the very word of God for Humankind (2 Timothy 3:16). It is in there, because God wants it in there because of it's revelence in it's Entirety to any person that God loves. Since God loves everyone[1] therefore anyone = everyone in this context.

1.	All-Loving

[Hatter23]

Hot enough for ya?

[velkyn]

Velkyn,

Since the Bible is the rule book for Christianity if you want to be considered to be Christian you must abide by the rules. You can't  play chess and make your own rules for the game can you? Baseball, anyone??

oh yes, those rules.  Which ones to you follow, catbird?  JC was all about following his father's laws, those ones back in the OT. He said that they were to be followed, and that the Pharisees were only doing lipservice to them.   Do you kill obstinate children?  Those who work on the "sabbath" (just what day is that exactly?)  How many homosexuals have you killed this week?  How about what you eat?  Pork?  Shrimp?  And what you wear?  That poly/cotton blend is against the rules.   There is nothing that separates the “10” commandments from the other ones.  JC says that obeying the commandments should be done and that you’ll even get a better seat in heaven if you do.   

We have "Paul" saying that women should never teach, never have authority over men, leave their hair long, never wear gold and jewels.  Do you tithe exactly what is requested of you? 

I'm guessing that you, like all Christians, have decided for yourself which rules you follow.  And of course, I’m right with your claims that “some” of the laws are only for the audience addressed.  This is a common Christian tactic and I’ve seen it before, to justify what laws are and aren’t meant for “everyone”.   You all loudly claim that those rules that are inconvenient are just for "the culture" or that you know personally from JC that you're exempt since you and only you know what God "really" meant. Funny how all Christians do this.  ONe of the best examples is how they rant that God hates homosexuals and Romans says it lookee see!  But when the other instructions to Romans, and the other "Churches" are demonstrated, oh my, then that's only for those people.

You see, catbird, as a former Christian, I have read the bible, as a believer and as not.  I know all of the excuses that Christians use to justify themselves. I prayed for guidance and to keep my faith and your god never responded (and I’ll hear lots of onetruechristian excuses for that too).  Your version of Christianity isn’t any better than the next.  IF you think it is, I would challenge you to show us that you are indeed the only TrueChristian.  JC promised that his followers would be able to do miracles like him and even better.  I offer to come with you to your local vet’s hospital and watch you heal someone of their amputation or cancer, anything really.  Or  we could meet at a homeless shelter and I could watch you multiply their food stores so you could make sure that they had enough for everyone.  Will you do this? And I’m asking in all seriousness.   

[catbird]

Velkyn,

You see, catbird, as a former Christian, I have read the bible, as a believer and as not.

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

[Aaron123]

Velkyn,

You see, catbird, as a former Christian, I have read the bible, as a believer and as not.

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

How comforting it must be to invoke the No true Scotsman^Wiki clause.  Instead of dealing with the fact that somebody once believed and no longer does, you get to pretend that they were just faking it the whole time.


Let's rewrite that last sentence of yours:

Btw. the Koran was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Allah. You may be able to quote the entire Koran verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love Allah.


After reading that, do you feel the need to become a muslim?  If you don't find that to be pervasive, then you shouldn't expect your original post to be pervasive to an atheist.

[One Above All]

Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers.

Isn't that lovely? Write a book, but only a small fraction of the planet will ever be able to understand it; the rest will just be tortured for eternity. Your god sounds like a wonderful being[1]

As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ

And you do? Such arrogance

You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

You know, assuming for a second that your fairy tale religion[2] is real, Satan himself is a believer. It believes in your god just like you do. It understands the Bible just like you do. Yet it chose to fight against your god. Doesn't that tell you something?

1.	In case you couldn't detect it - That was sarcasm
2.	Sorry, I always get those two confused

[violatedsmurf80]

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

Please explain this 1Cor.14:34-35 or this story Judges 19:22-30. The bible was not written for believers it was put together because a man wanted a divorce to marry his girlfriend and broke away from the catholic church. The bible was not written by GoD it was put together by man from scrolls. GoD inspired people might of wrote the scripts but man put them together. If GoD put together the bible why did he leave out so many other gospel like the Gospel of Thomas, the The Letter of Clement I, or The Didache: The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations?

[Brakeman]

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

How are you supposed to "Believe" in god's word if you're not privy to the meaning of god's word?
How can you understand enough of who God and jesus are without understanding it from the bible? Are you just supposed to take a stranger's word for it? How did you know that your pastor was a true christian to lead you to christ if you weren't privy to god's word? Ouija Board?

[pianodwarf]

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer.

You've already been told that you are committing the "No True Scotsman" fallacy, so I won't add my voice to the chorus on that one.  Instead, let me ask you this:  How would you react if someone were to tell you that you were never a believer, and in fact, you're not a believer now, either?  That you're actually an atheist claiming to be a believer?

[velkyn]

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

Again, you make this claim. Nice bit of false witnessing, btw.  And again, catbird, you can’t demonstrate it as true.  You have redefined Christian to suit yourself, catbird.  That’s also a common tactic, a Christian redefine words so that their claims aren’t as obviously untrue.  There have been plenty of people who were born again and then who left the faith.  Your little game has been played by theist after theist.  You delude yourself into the belief that no one could possibly ever decide that belief in your god is wrong.  It makes you feel good that you are just ever so “right”.  The Muslims often do it too, and what good company you have with them.  They try to kill people who convert from Islam.   

It’s also so funny to see you claim that the Bible was created “only” for believers.  Really?  Other Christians dont’ think so.  They think people can learn about God and JC when they read the bible and it should be obvious that the stories are good and true.  Oh, I’m sure you’ll say that those people aren’t TrueChristians either. No, only catbird is the only TrueChristian in the world, even if she can’t show that her beliefs are any better than anyone elses’.  No, we should just believe her claims.  That doesn’t happen, catbird.  Show me that this god exists and is worthy of love, catbird.  But you can’t, can you?  You need to claim that this god only reveals itself to special, special people like yourself.   You need to claim that anyone who doesn’t agree with you will be eternally tortured, it makes you feel good and justified. 

Of course, you didn’t actually answer any of my questions, catbird. No surprise there, for if you did, I’d see just how  much of a hypocrite you really are.  and of course you would never think to actually take up my challenge because you would fail and lose that special snowflake feeling that you are the only one who commands the love and attention of some omnipotent, omniscient magical deity.  It’s a shame that if your god *did* exist, you and the thousands like you would be the best he had to defend him.  But since he doesn’t, it comes down to humans just loving to think they are above everyone else.  Unfortunately, you have nothing to demonstrate that at all.

Pianodwarf’s point is a good one.  I can easily say that you were never a Christian since you don’t seem to be able to do what JC promised youu could.  There is nothing about you that fulfills one iota about what Christians are supposed to be.  You are just one more human, full of frailties and strengths.  No one could tell us apart by our actions.  Now what?     
 
 

[jaimehlers]

Velkyn,

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

So, in other words, it isn't enough for you that someone was born to Christian parents, baptized as a child, went every week to Sunday School and learned about Jesus and God, went on mission trips to help people in the name of Jesus, believed in the creed of the apostles, was confirmed of their church, etc.  If they weren't born again of the Holy Spirit, you believe they aren't actually a Christian, and if they stop believing because of a spiritual crisis, you believe they never were a Christian.

Good to know that you've decided that most Christians actually aren't really Christians after all, as well.  Good to know that you're condemning them the way you condemn former believers like velkyn.  The self-righteousness and gall of such a statement is appalling.  Who are you to pass judgment on all those people, who you haven't even met, merely because you believe you happen to have it right?

[Ivellios]

Catbird, since you claim to know the mind of God, since you have Judged Velkyn to the firey embers of hell.

You have been weighed. You have been measured and you have been found wanting. Judge not, lest ye be Judged. You have judged that Velkyn was never a Christian and now God will punish you as if you were never a Christian.


What about being humble? What about humility? What about being a good witness? If you do anything that causes another person to stumble or loose thier faith because of your witness, you'll wish someone tied a millstone around your neck and threw you into the sea on the day you were born by the time God gets finished with you. What if you were the person that God needed to bring Velkyn back but because of your massive ego, she will now never come back? You clearly had a faulty baptism. John 14: 11-14 says that if you have faith in Jesus, you will be able to do even greater Miracles than that Jesus himself did. Since you are his representative and he is no longer among us. If you cannot heal the sick, if you cannot raise the dead. If you cannot heal the blind or cleanse the lepers, if you cannot get the lame to walk. If you cannot cast out demons. Then you were never a Christian. Jesus himself said so. After all, the Bible is God's word and everything in it is true, and Jesus is not a liar.

People will be able to tell the difference between a True Christian and a poser by their works, their witness and by the fruits of the spirit. Jesus knew there would be posers, so he made it clear and obvious to anyone that read his words to be able to tell the difference. Modern day christians have been duped. They only want to do the parts that makes them feel good. They openly rebel against the rest because it violates thier sensibilities. God wants full obedience. Only doing 1/2 isn't good enough. Jesus, is there if you mess up, but as long as you try. He isn't a 'Get out of Jail card' that has unlimited uses. You're supposed to believe, repent, Follow Jesus and Gods commandments (not just 10). 'Cause, IF you Love him, you will obey ALL his commandments.

Yes, it's impossible to obey all his commandments all the time. Because Poser Christians don't want to. They deep down don't want God to give them the strength to do so. Since thier Baptism is faulty, they would never get the strength anyways. Jesus said in the last days there would be those doing to do his miracles, but claiming to be him, not doing it in his name. That is the way to tell the difference. You have to first find someone who can do the miracles of Jesus, while doing them in Jesus' name. Then be baptized by them. Only then if you repent, ask God for the strength to follow his commandments, then he will give it to you. Otherwise you're SOL just like every other unbeliever.

If you really, truly want to be a True Christian. Then ask God to bring a True Christian into your life so you may be saved. Remember, if they cannot do the miracles of Jesus in his name and do not posess all the fruits of the spirit, they're just a poser.

God bless you, Catbird.

Edit: Forgot about the Demons! I cannot believe it!

[screwtape]

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

It's predictable that you aren't letting other people's experiences get in the way of your prejudices about them.

[Emily]

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart.Your nature was never changed. You were never born again of the Holy Spirit. When you are born of the Holy Spirit you have become a new creation in Christ Jesus. Btw. the Bible was written for believers, not nonbelievers. As a nonbeliever you can never understand it because you don't have the mind of Christ You may be able to quote the entire Bible verbatim, Satan certainly can, but you will gain nothing because you don't love God.

This makes you sound like a complete douchebag.

[Mr. Blackwell]

How are you supposed to "Believe" in god's word if you're not privy to the meaning of god's word?

I think what she is trying to say is that you must first accept God's word before you can understand it.
Kind of like saying "But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it. Away from the fog of the controversy"[1]

1.	Nancy Pelosi on the health care bill

[Astreja]

As I have told you before Velkyn, you were never a believer. You never believed in your heart...

And you know this... How, exactly?  I doubt very much that you possess the ability to know what Velkyn once believed.

Why are you going to such lengths to deny the real-life experiences of other people, Catbird?  What if people do sincerely believe, then come to a point in their lives where that belief just falls apart?   How do you expect us to have any respect for you and your experiences when you dismiss ours?

[kin hell]

the catbird
self destruct mechanism 
stumping around the site (without a leg to stand on) 
crying "....here kitty kitty   .......here kitty kitty"


The inability/deliberate decision not to learn is the greatest individual "sin"   
Without honest intent to learn, we are condemned for the term of our natural life to parroting whatever pablum we were first force fed.

Continuing to mimic mime and mutter known inaccuracies and untruths in desperate defense of your obviously indefensible beliefs makes you in need of a name change.

Lyrebird is much more apt.

[catbird]

Brakeman,

God smote him. It is generally understood that if god killed you in anger, he wasn't inviting you home for tea and biscuits.

Brakeman. There were specific rules about how to transport the ark. Everyone knew that no one could handle the ark except those who had been assigned to do so. Everyone knew what the penalty was for someone other than those Israelites assigned to transport the ark. An example would be like dad told you not to touch a high amperage 600 volt line UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES ,or you will die. Nowhere does the Bible read that the man went to hell nor is it even implied..

[catbird]

Jaimehlers

So, in other words, it isn't enough for you that someone was born to Christian parents, baptized as a child, went every week to Sunday School and learned about Jesus and God, went on mission trips to help people in the name of Jesus, believed in the creed of the apostles, was confirmed of their church, etc.  If they weren't born again of the Holy Spirit, you believe they aren't actually a Christian, and if they stop believing because of a spiritual crisis, you believe they never were a Christian.

No one who hasn't been born of the Holy Spirit is a Christian...To be a Christian you MUST be born again..All the rest , someone was born to Christian parents, baptized as a child, went every week to Sunday School and learned about Jesus and God, went on mission trips to help people in the name of Jesus, believed in the creed of the apostles, was confirmed of their church, etc.
means nothing if you have not been born again of the Holy Spirit