Author Topic: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)  (Read 1929 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rickymooston

Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2011, 06:35:01 PM »
As far as the other Crazy fucks like Mao and Stalin,the killed for power and greed.....that has been a motivation through history,nothing new.  Now you on the other hand feel you OWN it,be it the territories stolen through time,resources,lives,slaves. You feel like it should never be taken away from you because God gave it to you....and that is the final answer,no debate.

Most wars are about power and greed, including reliogious wars. Communism was an ideology with a noble cause at the heart of it, like Christianity had a noble cause at heart; "concern for the common good", that was inherently subject to almost instant deterioration : corruption (one party state's don't have checks or balances), a lack of innovation (no incentive or ownership) and a natural bureaucracy.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline JeffPT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2098
  • Darwins +240/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a lead farmer mutha fucka
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #30 on: September 16, 2011, 08:43:00 PM »

Atheist kills millions...... well it was a different motivation not "atheism". Mostly True, I got it.

Correlation does not imply causation CP.  In other words, until you can find a direct link between atheism and motivation for killing people, then atheism kills just as many people as having bad eyesight, or brown hair, or long fingernails... none of which have a direct motivating factor for killing people, but all of which are characteristics of people who have killed others. 


Religious kill millions..... Okay now, they did it in Gods name, so that was there primary motivation.

Exactly.  It's about motivation.  Does atheism MOTIVATE people to kill others?  No.  Does religion?  All the freaking time. 


With sad exemptions, I believe both killed for the same reason. They used different wording, same motivation. Power, Greed, Money you name it.

Its not the same thing and you know it.  Anyone, religious or otherwise, can kill for power, greed or money. All religion does is add another motivating factor to the mix. 


Did people kill in the name of God alone. Yes I wont argue that.

Good.


I am highlighting how humans oversimplify the opposing sides view, but brew elaborate well though out responses for their own.

Yeah, but sometimes we don't oversimplify things.  Sometimes people can really understand the opposing sides view and be still think the other side is awful.  Do you think I went about brewing up some elaborate, well thought out response to you while oversimplifying your side of things?  Really?  Even though you admitted that people do use God as a motivating factor to kill, and that atheists never use atheism as a motivating factor to kill? 


 I just wondered if atheists had the same issue. Am I wrong? Probably a case by case basis thing.

Oversimplification in an argument is not an issue that atheists are immune to.  I believe it is correct to say it's a case by case thing.   

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4663
  • Darwins +106/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2011, 10:00:38 PM »
As far as the other Crazy fucks like Mao and Stalin,the killed for power and greed.....that has been a motivation through history,nothing new.  Now you on the other hand feel you OWN it,be it the territories stolen through time,resources,lives,slaves. You feel like it should never be taken away from you because God gave it to you....and that is the final answer,no debate.

Most wars are about power and greed, including reliogious wars. Communism was an ideology with a noble cause at the heart of it, like Christianity had a noble cause at heart; "concern for the common good", that was inherently subject to almost instant deterioration : corruption (one party state's don't have checks or balances), a lack of innovation (no incentive or ownership) and a natural bureaucracy.
The ideology of a dictator...like Stalin or Mao may have used the guise of Communism,but did not follow them(guidlines). killing millions does nothing for the common good....it just keeps the crazy fucks in power. The religous zealots on the other hand think that they have a God-given right to it. It is also told to them to take it however they deem necessary by that divine right. They did that all to well ....also welcome back ricky (my old forum name was I killed Jebus)
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2011, 10:00:40 AM »
I did not know Christians always run to these people(stalin,mao,hitlor) to make them look better.
then you are either amazingly ignorant or lying. 
Quote
Being out of the apologetic scene and spending time with hobbies too much, I thought I was being half way original there. Like Christians though, It looks like you have a defense prepared for these obvious hits on you. Do you need one?
I feel obligated to apologize for my peoples actions, you shouldn't In an all atheist societey I assume people would be people, most good some bad. Non-beleiving is not supposed to be a religion. Atheists should be more or less separated form what other atheist do.
No, you are not original at all.  And as always just hilarious to see the usual OneTrueChristian claims.  I do wonder if you'd be willing to come to the altars I have set up to test just who can get your god's attention first.  He was all about that in the OT, so it should be no problem now.   

All people are some good, some bad.  Religion makes no one good.
Quote
Though you cannot hear the tone of my voice. I was not attacking you with these evil characters by subtly referencing Stalin, Mao ect. I just wanted to gauge your response to understand where you come from. I expected a less religious type defense though.
  No, you were attacking.  I don’t buy the usual “I just wanted….” nonsense.  Always nice to see Christians trying to avoid responsibility.  And sorry, no religious type defense here, just a refutation of your attempts to claim that atheism causes harm.  Nice try there, though, equating religion to atheism.  Gee, that’s never ever been done before.  &)  You really should read some more on this forum before thinking you are being clever.
Quote
Instead, I felt I received the "these were really not atheists but something different" response. Christians are famous for such reactions, and I cant help that say I am tempted to be in the same boat many times. Can I claim George Bush is not a Christian and expect you to be on my side? I just assumed that such opinions are unfair, in regards to non-belivers.
  Oh, I’m sure that Stalin and Mao were atheists, they were also megalomaniacs who worshipped themselves.  I’m also sure both George Bushes are Christian since they claim to be.  You claim to be too.  And none of you can prove it or disprove the other ones aren’t.  You all claim to be the OneTrueChristiantm and that you and you alone know what your god “really” meant.  You invoke the “holy spirit” as your source and that your interpretation can be the only “right” one.  Oh yes, and again, why no smiting if this god doesn’t like what some Christians do (always of course to other disagreeing Christians)?
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2011, 02:01:29 PM »

 It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!

I think that's an unjustly wide brush. Yes the history of Christianity is positively blood spattered. However, you can say that for any culture, any country, any group. I see you are writing this in English, which mean you are at least partly connected to the bloody victoires of the Roman Empire. Just because you are in the confortable position of speaking a latin derived language...does that implicate you in the bloodshed?



An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2011, 02:19:12 PM »
Christianity does nothing to make people better. NOTHING. 

Sorry, but I gotta wholeheartly disagree with you on this point Mrs. V. The lessons it instilled in me stopped me from doing a lot of bad things as a young person. Honestly, my "faith" was the only thing that stopped me from participating in many of the activities my friends I grew up with frequently participated in.

All people are some good, some bad.  Religion makes no one good.

Agreed, however religion can be an influence for good though other things not related to faith can be as well.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 02:25:49 PM by Truth OT »

Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2011, 02:20:02 PM »
Sorry, but I gotta wholeheartly disagree with you on this point Mrs. V. The lessons it instilled in me stopped me from doing a lot of bad things as a young person. Honestly, my "faith" was the only thing that stopped me from participating in many of the activities my friends I grew up with frequently participated in.

So what about your religious beliefs motivates you to such levels of dishonesty on this forum?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12465
  • Darwins +293/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2011, 02:22:42 PM »
Sorry, but I gotta wholeheartly disagree with you on this point Mrs. V. The lessons it instilled in me stopped me from doing a lot of bad things as a young person. Honestly, my "faith" was the only thing that stopped me from participating in many of the activities my friends I grew up with frequently participated in.

Rather more on-topic than Omen's comment, I hope:  What was the reasoning process by which your faith informed your actions (or lack thereof)?  In other words, you ended with the conclusion that you shouldn't do X, Y and Z.  What were the premises from which you operated to get to that conclusion, given your faith?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2011, 02:30:09 PM »
Christianity does nothing to make people better. NOTHING. 

Sorry, but I gotta wholeheartly disagree with you on this point Mrs. V. The lessons it instilled in me stopped me from doing a lot of bad things as a young person. Honestly, my "faith" was the only thing that stopped me from participating in many of the activities my friends I grew up with frequently participated in.

These activities...did they involve harming someone unwilling? If no...then it is irrelavent. If yes, then you are saying the threat of outside harm or promise of reward prevented the activity. That's not morality, that's being afraid of a cop.

Fear of a cop doesn't mean you are a better person, it just means you didn't act on your negative impulse. It made you ACT as IF you were a better person. Of course, when you get into the habit of acting responsibile, the idea tends to get internalized over time.

So while I don't agree with the blanket statement you are responding to, I'd like you to acknowledge that it was fear of a cop. The All Knowing All Seeing Invisible God-cop.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2011, 02:31:38 PM »
Rather more on-topic than Omen's comment, I hope:  What was the reasoning process by which your faith informed your actions (or lack thereof)?  In other words, you ended with the conclusion that you shouldn't do X, Y and Z.  What were the premises from which you operated to get to that conclusion, given your faith?

The basic premise was that as a Christian, certain behavior was not acceptable. I felt due in part to my religious conditioning that my behavor had to be above reproach. Basically if X, Y, and Z were wrong, then I could not participate or be party to in those activities.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2011, 02:38:05 PM »
These activities...did they involve harming someone unwilling? If no...then it is irrelavent. If yes, then you are saying the threat of outside harm or promise of reward prevented the activity. That's not morality, that's being afraid of a cop.

Fear of a cop doesn't mean you are a better person, it just means you didn't act on your negative impulse. It made you ACT as IF you were a better person. Of course, when you get into the habit of acting responsibile, the idea tends to get internalized over time.

So while I don't agree with the blanket statement you are responding to, I'd like you to acknowledge that it was fear of a cop. The All Knowing All Seeing Invisible God-cop.

The activities ranged from generally harmless things to stealing, bullying, and other things. The fear of God's wrath wasn't what compelled my behavior as you seem to insinuate. What I found compelling was the idea of being "patted on the back" and being "holy and acceptable to God. I took a great deal of pride in being what I understood as pleasing to God. 

Offline Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12465
  • Darwins +293/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2011, 04:51:54 PM »
The basic premise was that as a Christian, certain behavior was not acceptable.
That is the conclusion I am asking about, not the premise.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7300
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2011, 07:40:49 PM »
Rather more on-topic than Omen's comment, I hope:  What was the reasoning process by which your faith informed your actions (or lack thereof)?  In other words, you ended with the conclusion that you shouldn't do X, Y and Z.  What were the premises from which you operated to get to that conclusion, given your faith?

The basic premise was that as a Christian, certain behavior was not acceptable. I felt due in part to my religious conditioning that my behavor had to be above reproach. Basically if X, Y, and Z were wrong, then I could not participate or be party to in those activities.

Hmmm...the unfortunate part of this idea is that there is very little you can do as a Christian that wouldn't be thought of as sinful, and everything else is just breaking laws.  I'm not buying it.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2011, 07:51:23 PM »
These activities...did they involve harming someone unwilling? If no...then it is irrelavent. If yes, then you are saying the threat of outside harm or promise of reward prevented the activity. That's not morality, that's being afraid of a cop.

Fear of a cop doesn't mean you are a better person, it just means you didn't act on your negative impulse. It made you ACT as IF you were a better person. Of course, when you get into the habit of acting responsibile, the idea tends to get internalized over time.

So while I don't agree with the blanket statement you are responding to, I'd like you to acknowledge that it was fear of a cop. The All Knowing All Seeing Invisible God-cop.

The activities ranged from generally harmless things to stealing, bullying, and other things. The fear of God's wrath wasn't what compelled my behavior as you seem to insinuate. What I found compelling was the idea of being "patted on the back" and being "holy and acceptable to God. I took a great deal of pride in being what I understood as pleasing to God.

This still has nothing to do with any sort of real morality. Instead of fear, your motivation for doing good was one of reward. You liked being patted on the back and you liked the idea of pleasing god. In other words your motivations were innately selfish.

You did not do those things because you were a good person, you did them because you were obedient to the god that you have in your head and wanted its approval.

So the point still remains that religion has not actually made you a better person. Nor has it done so for anyone else.

TLDR: This does not make you a good person, but it does make you an excellent lapdog.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2011, 07:53:07 PM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2011, 09:21:23 PM »
These activities...did they involve harming someone unwilling? If no...then it is irrelavent. If yes, then you are saying the threat of outside harm or promise of reward prevented the activity. That's not morality, that's being afraid of a cop.

Fear of a cop doesn't mean you are a better person, it just means you didn't act on your negative impulse. It made you ACT as IF you were a better person. Of course, when you get into the habit of acting responsibile, the idea tends to get internalized over time.

So while I don't agree with the blanket statement you are responding to, I'd like you to acknowledge that it was fear of a cop. The All Knowing All Seeing Invisible God-cop.

The activities ranged from generally harmless things to stealing, bullying, and other things. The fear of God's wrath wasn't what compelled my behavior as you seem to insinuate. What I found compelling was the idea of being "patted on the back" and being "holy and acceptable to God. I took a great deal of pride in being what I understood as pleasing to God.

This still has nothing to do with any sort of real morality. Instead of fear, your motivation for doing good was one of reward. You liked being patted on the back and you liked the idea of pleasing god. In other words your motivations were innately selfish.

You did not do those things because you were a good person, you did them because you were obedient to the god that you have in your head and wanted its approval.

So the point still remains that religion has not actually made you a better person. Nor has it done so for anyone else.

TLDR: This does not make you a good person, but it does make you an excellent lapdog.

For the most part I agree with your sentiments. My motivation was not about anything much more than me ultimately feeling good about myself both in my own eyes as well as those (God especially) to whom getting approval from mattered.

One more thing about being a good person I feel needs to be mentioned. People's goodness is measured by the sum of their deeds, NOT their intentions or their motivations so much. In other words, what one actually does is the best indicator of who they are.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4663
  • Darwins +106/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #44 on: September 20, 2011, 11:29:20 PM »

 It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!

I think that's an unjustly wide brush. Yes the history of Christianity is positively blood spattered. However, you can say that for any culture, any country, any group. I see you are writing this in English, which mean you are at least partly connected to the bloody victoires of the Roman Empire. Just because you are in the confortable position of speaking a latin derived language...does that implicate you in the bloodshed?
I said religous zealots NOT christians
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2011, 08:51:00 AM »
Christianity does nothing to make people better. NOTHING. 

Sorry, but I gotta wholeheartly disagree with you on this point Mrs. V. The lessons it instilled in me stopped me from doing a lot of bad things as a young person. Honestly, my "faith" was the only thing that stopped me from participating in many of the activities my friends I grew up with frequently participated in.
as has been noted by others, I don't see that you are that great a person, TOT.  And really, only the belief in some bogey man is what makes you a decent person?  You have no empathy, no respect, nothing but fear and greed for some magic afterlife?    How sad.

All people are some good, some bad.  Religion makes no one good.

Agreed, however religion can be an influence for good though other things not related to faith can be as well.
[/quote]

I disagree.  Religion can be an influence for someone being afraid of not getting their present.  Is this good?  I don't see that. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2011, 09:12:09 AM »

 It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!

I think that's an unjustly wide brush. Yes the history of Christianity is positively blood spattered. However, you can say that for any culture, any country, any group. I see you are writing this in English, which mean you are at least partly connected to the bloody victoires of the Roman Empire. Just because you are in the confortable position of speaking a latin derived language...does that implicate you in the bloodshed?
I said religous zealots NOT christians

Not to be sntsgonistic, but I read through your posts on the thread after you made this post, I cannot locate where you specified religous Zealots. Secondly, you specified that "christianPerson"'s hand aren't clean...how did he qualify as a zealot?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2011, 09:20:33 AM »
These activities...did they involve harming someone unwilling? If no...then it is irrelavent. If yes, then you are saying the threat of outside harm or promise of reward prevented the activity. That's not morality, that's being afraid of a cop.

Fear of a cop doesn't mean you are a better person, it just means you didn't act on your negative impulse. It made you ACT as IF you were a better person. Of course, when you get into the habit of acting responsibile, the idea tends to get internalized over time.

So while I don't agree with the blanket statement you are responding to, I'd like you to acknowledge that it was fear of a cop. The All Knowing All Seeing Invisible God-cop.

The activities ranged from generally harmless things to stealing, bullying, and other things. The fear of God's wrath wasn't what compelled my behavior as you seem to insinuate. What I found compelling was the idea of being "patted on the back" and being "holy and acceptable to God. I took a great deal of pride in being what I understood as pleasing to God.

So being a toady to someone who supposedly tortures people forever if they are not in his favor makes you a better person? Sorry, but I got to disagree on that.

I see your point about actions, not motivation, as the determing factor of goodness. I'm going to play devils advocate here, and I'm going to use a parable:

How genuine would you feel about an apology to you for harm, lets say a child that burned down your garage with a prized antique car you were working on; if the child was being bullied into giving the apology in the first place my their mother standing behind him? He did the action of apology, but do you actually think that means he's sorry and a better person?





« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 10:44:30 AM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2011, 09:39:58 AM »
as has been noted by others, I don't see that you are that great a person, TOT.  And really, only the belief in some bogey man is what makes you a decent person?  You have no empathy, no respect, nothing but fear and greed for some magic afterlife?    How sad.

Your personal opinion (attack) on my charactor is troubling. You know very little, excuse me, NOTHING about me, yet you would post something that can be viewed as a negative personal attack. Not cool Mrs. V, not cool. I had you pegged for being better than that.

As far as "only the belief in some bogey man is what makes you a decent person" goes, that is a grossly overstated charactorization. That belief was an instrumental part in molding my charactor yes, but it was not all there was or is to me, and in addition just so you are clear. MY ACTIONS and the way I treat other people are what make me a decent person.

Offline Omen

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5955
  • Darwins +105/-15
  • One of the fucking bad guys; not friendly, tiger!
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2011, 09:46:25 AM »
But there are many, if not most, that fill in the middle.

Christian    78.5%
Evangelical Protestant    26.3%
Catholic    23.9%
Mainline Protestant    18.1%
Black church    6.9%
Mormon    1.7%
Jehovah's Witness    0.7%
Orthodox Christian    0.6%
Other Christian    0.3%

http://religions.pewforum.org/affiliations

Evangelical Protestants are the largest group, with catholic and Mainline Protestants following.  Many more moderate or liberal minded believers comprise Mainline Protestantism, but the actual distinction of what is considered moderate Christianity from fundamentalist Christianity might be blurred.  The Evangelical Protestants are best described or categorized as those kinds of Christians we would identify as religious fundamentalist, but even at 26.3% that doesn't necessarily explain why 39.7 % of Americans responded as false to the statement:  "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals." There is quite a margin of difference between 26.3% and 39.7%, we either have to assume that a significant portion of Catholics and Mainline Protestants are what we would identify as religious fundamentalist or that not as many Evangelical Protestants are religious fundamentalists and the numbers are spread out across the demographics.

http://www.data360.org/dataset.aspx?Data_Set_Id=1073

Personally, I've run into more Catholics that are stereotypical mirror images of most Evangelical Protestants I've met/known.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 09:53:29 AM by Omen »
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2011, 10:09:50 AM »
as has been noted by others, I don't see that you are that great a person, TOT.  And really, only the belief in some bogey man is what makes you a decent person?  You have no empathy, no respect, nothing but fear and greed for some magic afterlife?    How sad.

Your personal opinion (attack) on my charactor is troubling. You know very little, excuse me, NOTHING about me, yet you would post something that can be viewed as a negative personal attack. Not cool Mrs. V, not cool. I had you pegged for being better than that.

As far as "only the belief in some bogey man is what makes you a decent person" goes, that is a grossly overstated charactorization. That belief was an instrumental part in molding my charactor yes, but it was not all there was or is to me, and in addition just so you are clear. MY ACTIONS and the way I treat other people are what make me a decent person.

I know what you post.  And what you post hasn't been all that nice.  I do know *something * about you.   I am making my personal opinions known based on facts.  I have no problem with this.  Is it a "personal attack"?  It certainly is a remark that I find your behavior objectionable. 

and how is my saying
Quote
"only the belief in some bogey man is what makes you a decent person"
any different from  this claim by you 
Quote
"The lessons it instilled in me stopped me from doing a lot of bad things as a young person. Honestly, my "faith" was the only thing that stopped me from participating in many of the activities my friends I grew up with frequently participated in."


I see nothing overstated at all.  You have claimed that your *faith* aka belief in God is what stopped you from doing certain things that evidently, in this context, would not have made you a decent person.  I see that your faith caused your actions.  and that faith in this god made you a decent person.  Your actions did not cause you to be a decent person, your actions are a result of your faith.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2011, 10:20:17 AM »
So being a toady to someone who supposedly tortures people forever if they are not in his favor makes you a better person? Sorry, but I got to disagree on that.

I see your point about actions, not motivation, ss the determing factor of goodness. I'm going to play devils advocate here, and I'm going to use a parable:

How genuine would you feel about an apology to you for harm, lets say a child that burned down your garage with a prized antique car you were working on; if the child was being bullied into giving the apology in the first place my their mother standing behind him? He did the action of apology, but do you actually think that means he's sorry and a better person?

I'll play along, but I will need to make some changes to your analogy so that it fits my situation more accurately if that's okay.

Let's say the gargage door was up and the prized vehicle was sitting there and there were children playing near the garage that didn't like the car's owner. Those kids pick up rocks with the intention of breaking the car's windows so that they can teach the owner a lesson, but one of them says, "no, we should do this", and is able to talk the kids out of that action. The kid who said no really in his heart wanted to teach the owner a lesson, but decided not to for the following reasons. First, he believed his father would not be proud of him it he carried out the vandalism and he didn't want his father to be displeased with his actions. Secondly, if he did what he was contemplating he knew that he'd have to face the wrath of his father. And finally, though sticking it to the owner would give him some temporary pleasure, ultimately he would be disappoionted in himself for engaging in that activity.

If I were the owner of the car and I knew about this scenario I would be glad that the kid had a set of principles (doesn't matter where they come from) that would prevent him from acting in a destructive manner towards my stuff.

-----
It seems that what we are talking about is the motives behind people's actions being what is the determining factor as it relates to how "good" a person someone is.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2011, 11:06:17 AM »
So being a toady to someone who supposedly tortures people forever if they are not in his favor makes you a better person? Sorry, but I got to disagree on that.

I see your point about actions, not motivation, ss the determing factor of goodness. I'm going to play devils advocate here, and I'm going to use a parable:

How genuine would you feel about an apology to you for harm, lets say a child that burned down your garage with a prized antique car you were working on; if the child was being bullied into giving the apology in the first place my their mother standing behind him? He did the action of apology, but do you actually think that means he's sorry and a better person?

I'll play along, but I will need to make some changes to your analogy so that it fits my situation more accurately if that's okay.

Let's say the gargage door was up and the prized vehicle was sitting there and there were children playing near the garage that didn't like the car's owner. Those kids pick up rocks with the intention of breaking the car's windows so that they can teach the owner a lesson, but one of them says, "no, we should do this", and is able to talk the kids out of that action. The kid who said no really in his heart wanted to teach the owner a lesson, but decided not to for the following reasons. First, he believed his father would not be proud of him it he carried out the vandalism and he didn't want his father to be displeased with his actions. Secondly, if he did what he was contemplating he knew that he'd have to face the wrath of his father. And finally, though sticking it to the owner would give him some temporary pleasure, ultimately he would be disappoionted in himself for engaging in that activity.

If I were the owner of the car and I knew about this scenario I would be glad that the kid had a set of principles (doesn't matter where they come from) that would prevent him from acting in a destructive manner towards my stuff.

-----
It seems that what we are talking about is the motives behind people's actions being what is the determining factor as it relates to how "good" a person someone is.

First, let me compliment you on a well written response.

Second this phrase made a great deal of difference to me....and kind of undermines your point

"ultimately he would be disappoionted in himself for engaging in that activity"

Which brings me to me to the fact that kind undermines my own position, externally forced/encouraged virtue eventually becomes a habit and tends to get internalized after a while.

I guess it does come down to a matter of degrees. I still don't see virtue arising out of religion, simply good habits. I see it as a type of social Darwinism, the religions that end up being encouraged by a society are the ones who encourage good citizenship. Good citizenship can include supporting tyrants, if they are in charge of the citizenry.




An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1452
  • Darwins +88/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2011, 11:35:33 AM »

First, let me compliment you on a well written response.

Second this phrase made a great deal of difference to me....and kind of undermines your point

"ultimately he would be disappoionted in himself for engaging in that activity"

Which brings me to me to the fact that kind undermines my own position, externally forced/encouraged virtue eventually becomes a habit and tends to get internalized after a while.

I guess it does come down to a matter of degrees. I still don't see virtue arising out of religion, simply good habits. I see it as a type of social Darwinism, the religions that end up being encouraged by a society are the ones who encourage good citizenship. Good citizenship can include supporting tyrants, if they are in charge of the citizenry.

Well said and so true.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4663
  • Darwins +106/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2011, 09:29:37 PM »

 It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!

I think that's an unjustly wide brush. Yes the history of Christianity is positively blood spattered. However, you can say that for any culture, any country, any group. I see you are writing this in English, which mean you are at least partly connected to the bloody victoires of the Roman Empire. Just because you are in the confortable position of speaking a latin derived language...does that implicate you in the bloodshed?
I said religous zealots NOT christians

Not to be sntsgonistic, but I read through your posts on the thread after you made this post, I cannot locate where you specified religous Zealots. Secondly, you specified that "christianPerson"'s hand aren't clean...how did he qualify as a zealot?
He has benifited from the nasty colonizers dirty work.....it says right in my post  religous zealots......all around the GLOBE   right here in my post
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2011, 01:14:58 PM »

 It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!

I think that's an unjustly wide brush. Yes the history of Christianity is positively blood spattered. However, you can say that for any culture, any country, any group. I see you are writing this in English, which mean you are at least partly connected to the bloody victoires of the Roman Empire. Just because you are in the confortable position of speaking a latin derived language...does that implicate you in the bloodshed?
I said religous zealots NOT christians

Not to be antagonistic, but I read through your posts on the thread after you made this post, I cannot locate where you specified religous Zealots. Secondly, you specified that "christianPerson"'s hand aren't clean...how did he qualify as a zealot?
He has benifited from the nasty colonizers dirty work.....it says right in my post  religous zealots......all around the GLOBE   right here in my post

I still don't see it. It still looks like you are implicating all Christians, period. But we've all benefited from some nastiness in the past. We've all got colonist blood in our veins, the blood of ancient rapists from prior to the invention of language, the blood of the agrarian societies that conquered the non agrarian societies before them, the bronze makers that conquered the agrarian, the iron makers that conquered the bronze, the steel wielders that conquered the iron. Our blood, our language, our customs , our society are that of the winners in a contest of death, war, and fire that is human history.

Why threat Christianity differently? How can we, without hypocrisy, point to the blood on their hand, when ours are soaked as well?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12577
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2011, 03:58:11 PM »
Nested quotes, people.  Watch the nested quotes please.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Alzael

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3577
  • Darwins +112/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2011, 04:37:36 PM »
[
One more thing about being a good person I feel needs to be mentioned. People's goodness is measured by the sum of their deeds, NOT their intentions or their motivations so much. In other words, what one actually does is the best indicator of who they are.

Actually, you're mistaken, motivation is the core of moral behaviour. Actions tend to be rather morally neutral by themselves, it's the motivations behind the actions that add subtlety and nuance. Otherwise you're just saying that there's a list of actions that are always good or bad in every circumstance, which is not how any human actually thinks.

Take the case of killing, for example. Most humans would say that the act of killing is wrong, however there is much to it than that. A person who kills another because he is about to murder a baby, is not the same from most moral perspectives as if he killed another because he thought it would be fun to do and he was bored on a Friday night.

Let's posit this in the same set of circumstances. Let's say that we have the same scenario, a man who sees another man about to strangle a baby in his crib. Which of these do you think is a better moral example? The man kills the other to defend the life and health of the innocent child. Or he kills the man just because he happens to be there and he's bored. The scenario that sets up the action is the same either way, and the action itself is the same. However the motivation paints two entirely different pictures of both the scene and the man involved.

Another example can be taken from the story of Robin Hood.

Here we have a character who robs from the rich and gives to the poor in the stories. He's a very classic hero figure that most people would say is rather admirable.

In my favourite movie adaptation of the story though, it shows Robin as having had a discussion with his men about the price that the Sheriff has put on their heads for their capture and they worry about the very real possibility that someone might turn them in for the reward before long. So Robin comes up with the idea of giving the money back to the poor, thus ensuring that they will love him and hail him as a hero and not turn him in for the reward. Making the act of robbing from the rich and giving to the poor not a real act of charity, but the equivalent of a basic marketing ploy. This is all to further his goals of getting vengeance on the Sheriff.

Again, we see that all it takes is a different motivation for the same act to be held in an entirely different light. This is how people actually think and view morality, it's how our courts work. Murder is different depending on why and how you did it. A sudden crime of passion is different from a deliberate and thought-out killing.

Point is, we don't judge people just by their actions. Deeds can help to establish a pattern of behaviour as to what the person might be like or what they might do, however the reasons behind the deeds are necessary in order to effectively judge the character of the person.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.