Author Topic: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)  (Read 1544 times)

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Offline christianperson

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Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« on: September 15, 2011, 05:44:25 PM »
Did not want to hijack the thread so I will star a new one. But here is my painful but honest response to flap doodles64 statement.

I guess if you are a Christian reading this, you are saying to yourself: 'Ho-ho Flapdoodle, the joke's on you! When you die, you will to hell just like your buddy Khomeini and so while you two are being tortured for all eternity you will have plenty of time to ask him about The Satannic Verses!'

Yes,some Christians might think this and enjoy bashing your perceived ignorance. Others might passionately pray for you and love you either way. Being a Christian all of my life I have met both ends of the spectrum.
Most Christians in reality (from my experience), would just nod there head and say you are lost. They probably would not take further action to pray for you though, because in America, it seems we Christians are pre-occupied with other things and evangelism is 2nd maybe 3rd(but still important of course). For me I would rather spend time fishing, or discussing fishing ,to be honest. Its my passion. I still pray and read my bible, but my hobbies animate my life. Every church is different and has different ratios of Jerks to Loving characters. But there are many, if not most, that fill in the middle. Enough passion to attend church and read devotionals, but in true free time a sitcom would take priority. Unless you knocked at there door asking about God. Also passion will wax and wain with Christians depending there circumstance or relationship with God.

This is an truthful observance of my culture. I will not mask anything for you, good or bad, to the best of my ability.

Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 06:30:09 PM »
CP:

Why did you identify yourself as caucasion?  How is that relevant?


Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 06:34:44 PM »
Did not want to hijack the thread so I will star a new one. But here is my painful but honest response to flap doodles64 statement.

I guess if you are a Christian reading this, you are saying to yourself: 'Ho-ho Flapdoodle, the joke's on you! When you die, you will to hell just like your buddy Khomeini and so while you two are being tortured for all eternity you will have plenty of time to ask him about The Satannic Verses!'

Yes,some Christians might think this and enjoy bashing your perceived ignorance. Others might passionately pray for you and love you either way. Being a Christian all of my life I have met both ends of the spectrum.
Most Christians in reality (from my experience), would just nod there head and say you are lost. They probably would not take further action to pray for you though, because in America, it seems we Christians are pre-occupied with other things and evangelism is 2nd maybe 3rd(but still important of course). For me I would rather spend time fishing, or discussing fishing ,to be honest. Its my passion. I still pray and read my bible, but my hobbies animate my life. Every church is different and has different ratios of Jerks to Loving characters. But there are many, if not most, that fill in the middle. Enough passion to attend church and read devotionals, but in true free time a sitcom would take priority. Unless you knocked at there door asking about God. Also passion will wax and wain with Christians depending there circumstance or relationship with God.

This is an truthful observance of my culture. I will not mask anything for you, good or bad, to the best of my ability.
It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline jetson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 09:05:55 PM »
I would like to mention that the silent middle is the biggest obstruction to pushing religious dogma back into the closet it should be in.  These silent middle people probably don't truly believe there is a god, but they follow the path of the majority, keep their head down, and remain silent on a topic that is at the root of sone of the most divisive and exclusionary beliefs ever perpetrated on modern humans.

They are probably more responsible for the continuation of delusional god think than any fundamental Christian nut job could ever hope to be.  All because they choose to remain silent.

Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 11:32:32 PM »
CP:

Why did you identify yourself as caucasion?  How is that relevant?
I suppose this is racist but only seeing African American churches on T.V. I gave them the benefit of the doubt of being on fire for God. I am aware that I have ethnocentric view sometimes. So I do my best to counter it. Cant please everybody though.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2011, 01:02:12 AM »
That's right, you don't have to worry that your rights are being trampled by theocratic politicians because all the special perks will accrue to you and your fellow religionists. You don't have to waste time and energy trying to fight the rising tide of darkness, because it's your darkness.

How nice for you.
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Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 01:13:18 AM »
That's right, you don't have to worry that your rights are being trampled by theocratic politicians because all the special perks will accrue to you and your fellow religionists. You don't have to waste time and energy trying to fight the rising tide of darkness, because it's your darkness.

How nice for you.

Nice to meet you. What are you implying before I assume your just attacking me. Politics are not my forte. Embarrassing? Sometimes, but perhaps I contribute to this society in other ways.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 01:45:59 AM by christianperson »

Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 01:42:09 AM »
I would like to mention that the silent middle is the biggest obstruction to pushing religious dogma back into the closet it should be in.  These silent middle people probably don't truly believe there is a god, but they follow the path of the majority, keep their head down, and remain silent on a topic that is at the root of sone of the most divisive and exclusionary beliefs ever perpetrated on modern humans.

They are probably more responsible for the continuation of delusional god think than any fundamental Christian nut job could ever hope to be.  All because they choose to remain silent.

Really strong points. Thanks for not directly bashing me. Anyway out of curiosity, do you think there is a silent middle for nonbelievers as well? Not to say it is relevant to your response, but it seems many non-believers have passions strong enough that they could care less about this site or Richard Dawkins debates. My friend/old science teacher, is an atheist, but he is so involved with birding I get the impression that he too has never heard of this site and just wants to talk about birds . Its just the impression, I get though. And I am not saying all you do is sit at your computer and have no life. Its just that the middle have different priorities in life. Many people just don't care what you believe as long as your not annoying or killing people. To me the silent middle are not all intentionally silent, they just don't care. I have no doubt there is less silent middle with nonbelievers, but there have got to be some, right?

Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2011, 02:07:15 AM »




[/quote] It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!
[/quote].

Yes, Christians did some terrible things in past times and still do for that matter. Some of the past just seemed like greedy humans using Christ as an excuse for gain but I don't expect you to distinguish between the "Christians" and Christians. However Currently I see some fellow believers hurt people spiritually, emotionally, and even physically. Its like they don't really care about the beautiful person non-belivers are. I do not know how to respond to such behavior and I am sorry.

 

Let me ask this? Is there any blood on the hands of atheists? When poor willed humans gain power they do bad things. Are atheists immune to greed that can kill innocent blood?

Maybe your a nice person. But regardless of beliefs, humans can be scary corrupt.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 02:46:51 AM by christianperson »

Offline Timo

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2011, 03:08:03 AM »
CP:

Why did you identify yourself as caucasion?  How is that relevant?
I suppose this is racist but only seeing African American churches on T.V. I gave them the benefit of the doubt of being on fire for God. I am aware that I have ethnocentric view sometimes. So I do my best to counter it. Cant please everybody though.

Peace christianperson.  I too was kind of weirded out by the thread title.  I thought for sure there was going to be some serious racism up in this.  But I think I can actually get where you're coming from here.  But let me, as a genuine "African American"[1] tell you that a lot of us aren't what you see on TV.  The folks you seen on BET on a Sunday, the televangelists, the megachurch pastors, don't represent Black Christians anymore than John Hagee or Rick Warren represent white ones.  Personally, I grew up in the kind of church where we might have occasionally seen someone fall out or get that holy ghost....but it was kind of weird....and almost always the result of someone visiting the church.  I've been to a few white Protestant churches as well, and honestly, the service wasn't all that different--though I think our music's better.  Furthermore, though we're probably more segregated in where we attend religious services than is generally the case, there are Black folks that attend church in mostly non-Black congregations.

But my experience is by no means representative.  I'm not sure anyone's is.  Even as a kid, I could see the diversity in Black Christianity.  As much as I often disliked going to church as a kid, I was happy that I went to a CME rather than a Baptist church.  That meant that I didn't spend my whole day at church.  Though I would have probably preferred to go to mass because it seemed like my Catholic friends and relatives were pretty much in and out.  And Pentecostalism of any race has always weirded me the fuck out.

So yeah...


Peace
 1. by the way, Black folks say Black.  The only time I've ever used the phrase "African American" in an actual conversation was in discussing culture with my African ex-girlfriend, where the distinction between African and African American was necessary.  You can say Black people.  It's okay.
pero ya tu sabes...

Offline Bad Pear

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2011, 03:26:47 AM »
Most Christians in reality (from my experience), would just nod there head and say you are lost. They probably would not take further action to pray for you though, because in America, it seems we Christians are pre-occupied with other things and evangelism is 2nd maybe 3rd(but still important of course). For me I would rather spend time fishing, or discussing fishing ,to be honest. Its my passion. I still pray and read my bible, but my hobbies animate my life.

If you're a Calvinist then disregard this I suppose. Otherwise read on:

Here's my take on the apparent attitude that many Christian's have: They are either sadistic, apathetic, soulless fucker or they do not really believe. I lean far towards the latter because most of us have a well formed sense of empathy. As Jefferson said:

Quote
These silent middle people probably don't truly believe there is a god...

How could they? I mean really, how could you believe the message of the bible, hold Christ to be the only way to salvation, believe that the lost will suffer for eternity and then proceed to do anything other than evangelize for the rest of your days? How could you possibly, from an eternal perspective, justify going fishing when you know that God has charged you with being a fisher of men? Are not the stakes of eternal torture so high that nothing else could take precedent over conversion?

I'll go even further to say that, if you believe in the concept of the "age of accountability", how can you justify allowing a newborn to survive? How does that make believing parents anything more than a factor for potential future lost souls? Wouldn't my mother have been right to have killed me as an infant? Wouldn't that have saved me from the inevitable fire for which I am headed?

TL:DR: If you concern yourself with anything other than the salvation of your fellow man I submit that you either don't truly believe or you simply do not care.
Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions implode, atheism is what is left behind

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2011, 05:07:41 AM »
Christianguy,

Two things:

1) I like you.

2) The Yahweh of the bible, if he exists, will torture you forever for who you are, and what you choose to do (don't worry, he doesn't exist, now keep your eye on your lines).

I just want to go (ice) fishing with you. You think, and act exactly as if a god doesn't exist. Your characterization of church, worship and christian groups / people in general is exactly as it would be if no god existed. You have a fetish for the sacred, no problem, some people just get that from how they're raised.

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline jetson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2011, 05:45:56 AM »

Really strong points. Thanks for not directly bashing me. Anyway out of curiosity, do you think there is a silent middle for nonbelievers as well? Not to say it is relevant to your response, but it seems many non-believers have passions strong enough that they could care less about this site or Richard Dawkins debates. My friend/old science teacher, is an atheist, but he is so involved with birding I get the impression that he too has never heard of this site and just wants to talk about birds . Its just the impression, I get though. And I am not saying all you do is sit at your computer and have no life. Its just that the middle have different priorities in life. Many people just don't care what you believe as long as your not annoying or killing people. To me the silent middle are not all intentionally silent, they just don't care. I have no doubt there is less silent middle with nonbelievers, but there have got to be some, right?

Yes, there are outspoken atheists and there are atheists who choose to not get nvolved in the discussions, or even share their atheism with others.  The difference, however, is that the silence of those atheists is not causing direct harm to anyone.  The silent religious are indirectly providing a platform for the extremes who will stop at nothing to take away the rights and freedoms of those who don't follow their god. 

The worst that can be said about silent atheists, is that they are not helping in the fight against bigotry and hatred towards non believers.  And frankly, many of them are literally afraid to "come out", thanks to the centuries of hatred spewed at non believers.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2011, 06:03:58 AM »
Yes,some Christians might think this and enjoy bashing your perceived ignorance. Others might passionately pray for you and love you either way. Being a Christian all of my life I have met both ends of the spectrum.
Most Christians in reality (from my experience), would just nod there head and say you are lost. ..

Welcome to the Forum! I appreciate your heartfelt response to the questions.  I hope you can understand the barbs of some of the sharper critics.

Why do you think that there is such a difference among christians? Does god tell each and every one of them something different? When they prayed for salvation, did they speak to the same person?

If Jesus is so miraculous in one's heart, why does it not change people to be better in a statistically significant way? Why do christians divorce more than atheists despite having god in their heart and having a consecrated marriage?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline rickymooston

Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2011, 06:16:06 AM »
[Why do you think that there is such a difference among christians? Does god tell each and every one of them something different? When they prayed for salvation, did they speak to the same person?

Why is it hard to believe some people can lack understanding of the truth? Why does pseudo science exist. Does the existence of pseudo science and fad diets imply that science is false?

Your argument isn't very convincing.

Quote
If Jesus is so miraculous in one's heart, why does it not change people to be better in a statistically significant way? Why do christians divorce more than atheists despite having god in their heart and having a consecrated marriage?

How does one define ChristianTM? How could you possibly know whether or not "true" Christians divorce at the same rate, divorce less or divorce more.

Its possible the "true" ones don't divorce at all.

Anyway the above claim, makes an impressive claim on our ability to statistically measure things.

A core part of the belief is that many people who claim to be CHristains aren't. Lots of people are Christians for display purposes only.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2011, 08:51:20 AM »




It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!
[/quote].

Yes, Christians did some terrible things in past times and still do for that matter. Some of the past just seemed like greedy humans using Christ as an excuse for gain but I don't expect you to distinguish between the "Christians" and Christians. However Currently I see some fellow believers hurt people spiritually, emotionally, and even physically. Its like they don't really care about the beautiful person non-belivers are. I do not know how to respond to such behavior and I am sorry.

 

Let me ask this? Is there any blood on the hands of atheists? When poor willed humans gain power they do bad things. Are atheists immune to greed that can kill innocent blood?

Maybe your a nice person. But regardless of beliefs, humans can be scary corrupt.
[/quote]





God has taught ethnic cleansing from day one they were doing God's work nice try though
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2011, 11:24:27 AM »
Let me ask this? Is there any blood on the hands of atheists? When poor willed humans gain power they do bad things. Are atheists immune to greed that can kill innocent blood?

Maybe your a nice person. But regardless of beliefs, humans can be scary corrupt.
I'd suggest showing that atheim caused any thing like this or if it was megalomania, since Christians always want to run back to Stalin, Mao, etc. 

Christianity does nothing to make people better. NOTHING.  And if this god of yours exists, why no smiting for doign against its will as was done supposedly back in the OT and NT.  Heck, your god killed a man for doing no more than trying to make sure its magic box didn't fall over.  And we are to believe this being exists and allows evil to be done in its name without batting an eye?
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2011, 12:10:00 PM »
Quote
A core part of the belief is that many people who claim to be CHristains aren't. Lots of people are Christians for display purposes only.

Which kind are you?

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Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2011, 01:20:05 PM »




It might be fine for you to stand up and say this because ALL the dirty work (genocide,torture,stake burnings ......and so on) have all been taken care of so you enjoy a passion like fishing. The dirty work your religion has done to get you where you are today has been ignored by YOU. And you justify it by saying "that was before my time,I can't be held responsible".  Warmongers all over the Globe past and present have used your,and other religions to destroy civilizations,steal their land and resources and you are the end result.

 You think your hands are clean but they are not!
.

Yes, Christians did some terrible things in past times and still do for that matter. Some of the past just seemed like greedy humans using Christ as an excuse for gain but I don't expect you to distinguish between the "Christians" and Christians. However Currently I see some fellow believers hurt people spiritually, emotionally, and even physically. Its like they don't really care about the beautiful person non-belivers are. I do not know how to respond to such behavior and I am sorry.

 

Let me ask this? Is there any blood on the hands of atheists? When poor willed humans gain power they do bad things. Are atheists immune to greed that can kill innocent blood?

Maybe your a nice person. But regardless of beliefs, humans can be scary corrupt.
[/quote]





God has taught ethnic cleansing from day one they were doing God's work nice try though
[/quote]
As a child, my father use find a way to blame me for literally everything that went wrong. Sounds like if I talk to you you'll do the same. I basically asked can an atheist do wrong. I was hoping for honest introspect thats all.
I also hope your life is not animated by hate towards religion. From personal experience, dwelling too long on any heated topic, has taken the emotional energy I need to love others who are close to me.  I don't know you, so maybe I am dead wrong.

Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2011, 01:22:17 PM »
Let me ask this? Is there any blood on the hands of atheists? When poor willed humans gain power they do bad things. Are atheists immune to greed that can kill innocent blood?

Maybe your a nice person. But regardless of beliefs, humans can be scary corrupt.
I'd suggest showing that atheim caused any thing like this or if it was megalomania, since Christians always want to run back to Stalin, Mao, etc. 

Christianity does nothing to make people better. NOTHING.  And if this god of yours exists, why no smiting for doign against its will as was done supposedly back in the OT and NT.  Heck, your god killed a man for doing no more than trying to make sure its magic box didn't fall over.  And we are to believe this being exists and allows evil to be done in its name without batting an eye?

I did not know Christians always run to these people(stalin,mao,hitlor) to make them look better. Being out of the apologetic scene and spending time with hobbies too much, I thought I was being half way original there. Like Christians though, It looks like you have a defense prepared for these obvious hits on you. Do you need one?
I feel obligated to apologize for my peoples actions, you shouldn't In an all atheist societey I assume people would be people, most good some bad. Non-beleiving is not supposed to be a religion. Atheists should be more or less separated form what other atheist do.
 Though you cannot hear the tone of my voice. I was not attacking you with these evil characters by subtly referencing Stalin, Mao ect. I just wanted to gauge your response to understand where you come from. I expected a less religious type defense though.
Instead, I felt I received the "these were really not atheists but something different" response. Christians are famous for such reactions, and I cant help that say I am tempted to be in the same boat many times. Can I claim George Bush is not a Christian and expect you to be on my side? I just assumed that such opinions are unfair, in regards to non-belivers.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume I am overlooking and over generalizing. Enlighten me

 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 02:35:50 PM by christianperson »

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2011, 02:31:08 PM »
As a child, my father use find a way to blame me for literally everything that went wrong.

That's pretty awful.  When he blamed you for the Kennedy assassination, did you have a good aliby?  When he blamed you for the end of the dinosaurs, what did you say?   (I kid.  My wife uses the word "literally" way too much too.)

Wouldn't it be nice if you could just have a really nice father figure that loved you unconditionally, could do no wrong, was super powerful, and watched out for you every day of your life instead?  Voila! God. 

I basically asked can an atheist do wrong.

Yes.  Absolutely yes.  Unequivocally yes.  But there is a vast difference between doing something bad and doing something bad in the name of atheism.  Nobody kills other people expressly because they are atheists.  Nobody charges the field screaming "No God is with me!"  Nobody invading army ever wore a belt buckle that said "No God is on our side".  People don't do bad things because of what they don't believe in... they do bad things because of what they DO believe in.  Nobody is saying the world would be a utopia without religion.  It would just be significantly better than it is now. 

I also hope your life is not animated by hate towards religion.

What if your life is animated by hate towards religion because you truly feel that organized religion is the most evil, vile thing on the planet, and that it is the single greatest threat to the survival of life on Earth?   

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline screwtape

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2011, 03:55:04 PM »

Hi christianperson,

My text is in green to signify my "moderator voice".  Either your quoting skills need work or you need to review your posts before you post them.  Please follow these links to the Quoting Tutorial, the Quoting FAQ and the Users' Guide.  Read them, practice your quoting in the test area.  This will make communication with other members easier and less frustrating.  If you have questions, PM a moderator.  Thanks. 

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Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2011, 04:44:12 PM »


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Yes.  Absolutely yes.  Unequivocally yes.  But there is a vast difference between doing something bad and doing something bad in the name of atheism.  Nobody kills other people expressly because they are atheists.  Nobody charges the field screaming "No God is with me!"  Nobody invading army ever wore a belt buckle that said "No God is on our side".  People don't do bad things because of what they don't believe in... they do bad things because of what they DO believe in.  Nobody is saying the world would be a utopia without religion.  It would just be significantly better than it is now.


 

Here is where I become confused :?.

Atheist kills millions...... well it was a different motivation not "atheism". Mostly True, I got it.

Religious kill millions..... Okay now, they did it in Gods name, so that was there primary motivation.

With sad exemptions, I believe both killed for the same reason. They used different wording, same motivation. Power, Greed, Money you name it.

Did people kill in the name of God alone. Yes I wont argue that.

Why did I write this? Whats the point? To get you on my side, or cause you to feel bad about acts you did not commit? NO
I am highlighting how humans oversimplify the opposing sides view, but brew elaborate well though out responses for their own. I just wondered if atheists had the same issue. Am I wrong? Probably a case by case basis thing.


« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 04:46:44 PM by christianperson »

Offline The Wannabe

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2011, 05:05:52 PM »



 

Here is where I become confused :?.

Atheist kills millions...... well it was a different motivation not "atheism". Mostly True, I got it.

Religious kill millions..... Okay now, they did it in Gods name, so that was there primary motivation.

With sad exemptions, that often both killed for the same reason. They used different wording, same motivation. Power, Greed, Money you name it.

Did people kill in the name of God alone. Yes I wont argue that.

Why did I write this? Whats the point? To get you on my side, or cause you to feel bad about acts you did not commit? NO
I am highlighting how humans oversimplify the opposing sides view, but brew elaborate well though out responses for their own. I just wondered if atheists had the same issue. Am I wrong? Probably a case by case basis thing.

No, i don't think atheist have the same issue, not in the least.  See, atheist believe in no deities, no all powerful being full of love and compassion and mercy.  But, the christian does believe in such an entity. 

The point i believe Jeff was trying to make is that both atheist and christians are capable of the most morally horrific acts.  However, christians have to justify an all powerful, all loving god who sits back with a glass of lemonade and watches the world burn.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2011, 05:22:07 PM by The Wannabe »
"I would believe only in a God that knows how to Dance."  -Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2011, 05:39:28 PM »


Quote
Yes.  Absolutely yes.  Unequivocally yes.  But there is a vast difference between doing something bad and doing something bad in the name of atheism.  Nobody kills other people expressly because they are atheists.  Nobody charges the field screaming "No God is with me!"  Nobody invading army ever wore a belt buckle that said "No God is on our side".  People don't do bad things because of what they don't believe in... they do bad things because of what they DO believe in.  Nobody is saying the world would be a utopia without religion.  It would just be significantly better than it is now.


 

Here is where I become confused :?.

Atheist kills millions...... well it was a different motivation not "atheism". Mostly True, I got it.

Religious kill millions..... Okay now, they did it in Gods name, so that was there primary motivation.

With sad exemptions, I believe both killed for the same reason. They used different wording, same motivation. Power, Greed, Money you name it.

Did people kill in the name of God alone. Yes I wont argue that.

Why did I write this? Whats the point? To get you on my side, or cause you to feel bad about acts you did not commit? NO
I am highlighting how humans oversimplify the opposing sides view, but brew elaborate well though out responses for their own. I just wondered if atheists had the same issue. Am I wrong? Probably a case by case basis thing.
You can now enjoy the benefits of your fellow church goers who stole the land and its resources from the indigenous populations of the world...... Because God promised the land to you,take it with whatever needs possible,it is yours as my gift(God's)......do you not see this?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2011, 05:43:53 PM »
As far as the other Crazy fucks like Mao and Stalin,the killed for power and greed.....that has been a motivation through history,nothing new.  Now you on the other hand feel you OWN it,be it the territories stolen through time,resources,lives,slaves. You feel like it should never be taken away from you because God gave it to you....and that is the final answer,no debate.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline christianperson

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2011, 06:00:54 PM »
Quote
You can now enjoy the benefits of your fellow church goers who stole the land and its resources from the indigenous populations of the world...... Because God promised the land to you,take it with whatever needs possible,it is yours as my gift(God's)......do you not see this?

Sorry I will be leaving this place for a while Monkey12.  Shoot me an email if you would like another response from me. If not I will start a thread based of your above statement when I have time. I like the territory this is going.  Take it easy and off to research I Go.

sammywc82@yahoo.com

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2011, 06:07:04 PM »
 Why are you leaving.....just getting interesting,and from some of your other posts I would say you are having second thoughts about your stand as a Christian
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Understanding the American Caucasian Christian.(the silent middle)
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2011, 06:13:08 PM »
Hi christianperson.

When you said you would rather go fishing than do religious stuff, you had us at hello. We would, too. :D But here is the problem. You claim to believe in an all-powerful being who watches your every move and keeps it all in a giant golden book to judge in the last days. Or some version of that.

If I really, truly, in my heart believed that (and I would not say I was a Christian if I didn't) I would never knowingly do anything wrong. I would join the most strict, severe, Amish-like religious community I could find and spend every single waking hour doing god's will. How could I not, if god was watching me and judging me every second?  :o

Now compare this with what the vast majority of Christians do. Like you, they would rather go fishing, watch tv, chase tail, surf the internet for nekkid pictures, shoot the breeze with their homies, work overtime to pay the bills, play with their kids, learn to speak Chinese, etc than devote their entire lives to the worship of god.

In fact, the everyday life of the average Christian is not very different from the life of the average unbeliever. Most of us are undercover atheists to avoid being hassled.  8) And guess what? Nobody can tell.

Moreover, the higher percentage of self-described Christians there are in a region of the US, the worse off that area is. Higher rates of every social ill seem to dog the "bible belt"-- more teen pregnancy, more divorce, more family violence, more meth use, lower education levels, higher infant mortality, higher unemployment, higher percentages in jail. In the less religious states,  all sorts of terrible sinning is allowed like belief in evolution, sex education in schools, legal abortion and gay rights. And there is less divorce, higher education levels, less teen pregnancy, less family violence, longer live spans, better health, etc.  :-\

I saw one report that said that the highest rates of "porn addiction" was in the more religious states, like Utah and Arkansas. Could be that we athiests don't consider looking at porn a bad thing, and would not report being "addicted". But that begs the question: why would a Christian with god watching every move, ever open a porn site to begin with?  :?

So I guess my question is, what is the point of being a Christian if a) people don't act like they really believe, and b) it does not seem to make people any better off by any measure than atheists? In fact, it seems to make people worse off, and at best turns them into secretly sinning guilty hypocrites. What gives?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.