Why I am here

[Jeff7]

Numbers, man. Numbers.

[esx93]

I'm having a faith crisis myself. I'm so consumed by the delusion of religion that it's taking a toll on my life. It's horrible. I'm desperately trying to find peace with myself but that seems to be impossible...

[natlegend]

Esx93, can you pinpoint the moment when you first started to question your faith? What happened?

[EV]

I'm having a faith crisis myself. I'm so consumed by the delusion of religion that it's taking a toll on my life. It's horrible. I'm desperately trying to find peace with myself but that seems to be impossible...

You don't need to worry about religion to find peace within yourself.

I'm a musician, and when I am in turmoil (i.e. whenever I am desperately behind on my work ) I go and play my Viola or the Piano, and then I end up feeling as you say 'at peace', that familiar warm fuzzy feeling of God, in the same way I used to get when I was at synagogue, praising God. I am an atheist now, and enjoy life much more not being constrained to the fallacies of religion.

God can be regarded as a psychological concept, in the end it has the same effect as playing music. You pour your emotions into it and it lets it all out.

Personally, I find music to be much easier to live with on a day to day basis than an all powerful daddy in the sky controlling my movement.

My advice would be to look objectively and remove your emotions from the equation.

Also, same question as Natlegend

Esx93, can you pinpoint the moment when you first started to question your faith? What happened?

[Omen]

About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution.

Can you be more specific?

What would you say to an atheist that would point out that evolution being true or not, has nothing to do with the notion of a generic god existing or not?

In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him.

This is confusing.  Can you be more specific?

[gonegolfing]

Its been about time to re-examine my faith. About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution. The crisis lasted a couple of years off and on. I am secure in that area now and reasonably educated. I need your help exposing other fallacies in my thinking(e.g. hell,false promises,ect). In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him.  I  know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys but that is not why I am here. If there are flaws that I cannot get past I will eventually be an Atheist, I assume.
In spiritual nature, I am cut and dry. I will either accept and understand the bible/God through this process or I will dismiss it and just keep the values "I like" as another on this site already put. That is where I feel a little theoretical kinship with atheists. You seem to understand the bible is explicit and filled withs radical indigestible content. As a christian it is very easy to overlook such things though many have done a good job at answering tough questions for me in the past.

It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes. But instead of calling half of it figurative like some. I would just rather be an athiest. The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time. I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.
I will not respond to non-adult level discussion. If you just want "hate debate" find somebody else.

One of the greatest things I ever decided to do, was to start with reality and then work my way back through the god hypothesis with rational thinking and scientific knowledge and understanding as my support and guides.

This is the only truly intellectually honest way to test the god idea, as it first and foremost removes the god exists assumption and the question begging that comes with it. This way you've been honest, and instead of beginning with the assumption that a god exists and then trying to prove that he does not, you've correctly started with the fact that you see no hard evidence that a god does exist and then search for evidence to verify that it does. You work your way back looking for solid evidence somewhere along the line that will justify the hypothetical claim.

Good Luck. I couldn't find any. As well, words and text from a failed ancient book of historical fiction and misguided explanations of reality, do not count as evidence to prove the existence of a personal, loving, and intervening god in this the 21st. century.

You must look closely at reality and listen intently to science and then look for a connection that would unite the facts as we know them with the claims of the hypothesis to confirm its truth. Again, I could find no connection and the god hypothesis failed.

We've watched the god of the bible go from an in your face personal god showing himself to every Tom Dick and Harry, to a god of the few gaps that are left and so deeply shrouded in mystery that it's become an absurdity. Where did god go ? He has been handed over to science by religion and they've run away in embarrassment:-- better to turn yourself in and hope for the best than to be hunted down and outright executed 

Being atheist is no biggie. I have no feelings whatsoever about being an atheist. That title comes with being god belief free. However, the title rationalist ? Now there's a title that one can be proud of !

Cheers

[Aceluffy]

Personally, I think the best part of the bible is Exodus. So many villages and people slaughtered in the name of g-o-d that it will make quite a good movie.

Imagine all the slaughtering by Moses' elite soldier executed in slow motion ala 300

[Ivellios]

I thought that wasn't till they got to the "Promised Land" so, Joshua. After the drowning of Pharoh's army, they were just allegedly wondering in circles for 40 years. That they started the Gencide kick with Jerhico(sp).

[YY]

Its been about time to re-examine my faith. About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution. The crisis lasted a couple of years off and on. I am secure in that area now and reasonably educated. I need your help exposing other fallacies in my thinking(e.g. hell,false promises,ect). In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him.  I  know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys but that is not why I am here. If there are flaws that I cannot get past I will eventually be an Atheist, I assume.
In spiritual nature, I am cut and dry. I will either accept and understand the bible/God through this process or I will dismiss it and just keep the values "I like" as another on this site already put. That is where I feel a little theoretical kinship with atheists. You seem to understand the bible is explicit and filled withs radical indigestible content. As a christian it is very easy to overlook such things though many have done a good job at answering tough questions for me in the past.

It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes. But instead of calling half of it figurative like some. I would just rather be an athiest. The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time. I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.
I will not respond to non-adult level discussion. If you just want "hate debate" find somebody else.

Hi Christianperson. Good luck in your search. I'm just wondering why there is only Christian or atheist? Have you tried looking at other religions?

I think the bottom line is to do whatever makes you feel most comfortable with this life you've been given, whether it be by God, Allah, the Universe, your mom, stardust or whatever. You've got to find meaning in the way that makes the most sense to YOU. I think that's the reason for the thousands of different religions, it's what makes sense to the followers. Then, there's cross-denominational places of worship. So many to choose from.

I'd recommend you finding something that inspires and empowers you. I was raised Catholic and have left that far behind. I don't respond to guilt and damnation, but rather empowerment and inspiration. If atheism is what gives that to you, then have at it. But, it would be disappointing to give up on ALL religion if you haven't even tasted the other flavors and you're having a fight with this God that you've been taught should act one way but turns out to be another. Beware of religions that say they know what God is thinking!

Best wishes on your travels.

[YY]

Time to come out of the closet.

Nothing against gays, but atheists should really pick a different term.

Wipe the slate?

Control Z?

Get your A back (a-theist)?

[natlegend]

Time to come out of the closet.

Nothing against gays, but atheists should really pick a different term.

Why? You're premoting an 'us and them' mentality. Uncool.

[fishjie]

come out the closet is fitting.   gays risk being ostracized by friends and family who are deeply religious.

so do atheists.   

[bertatberts]

Time to come out of the closet.

Nothing against gays, but atheists should really pick a different term.

Wipe the slate?

Control Z?

Get your A back (a-theist)?

Revert to the norm.
I don't like the term deconvert, because theists are indoctrinated/inculcated from birth, they were never converted in the first place. they manage to deprogramme themselves.  So Revert to normality, is best for me. or simply Revert.

[Vivisectus]

Its been about time to re-examine my faith. About a decade ago I almost lost my belief in God because of evolution. The crisis lasted a couple of years off and on. I am secure in that area now and reasonably educated. I need your help exposing other fallacies in my thinking(e.g. hell,false promises,ect). In my relationship with God now I am confused and angry with him.  I  know this not a great testimony to convert you gals/guys but that is not why I am here. If there are flaws that I cannot get past I will eventually be an Atheist, I assume.
In spiritual nature, I am cut and dry. I will either accept and understand the bible/God through this process or I will dismiss it and just keep the values "I like" as another on this site already put. That is where I feel a little theoretical kinship with atheists. You seem to understand the bible is explicit and filled withs radical indigestible content. As a christian it is very easy to overlook such things though many have done a good job at answering tough questions for me in the past.

It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes. But instead of calling half of it figurative like some. I would just rather be an athiest. The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

I am a learner right now and do not have the time to refute every one of your anti-bible claims. Hit me with your best stuff and remember some of my statements will sound pointed, but I genuinely feel curios at this time. I do not hate you,I do not bash on you around other christians, and some of my favorite friends/professors are atheists.
I will not respond to non-adult level discussion. If you just want "hate debate" find somebody else.

Heya ChristianPerson!

If you require the bible to be literally true to be a Christian, then you have already answered your own question, I think. That is just not possible. People don't live in giant fishes for days. The flood is not possible. The Ark is impossible to build - a guy tried to a while ago, and was forced to scale it down and create a steel base for it, as otherwise it would collapse under it's own weight. Plants were not created before the sun was. Etc. etc. etc.

You cannot even consider the bible an authority on the Christian tradition, as it is made up of the writings of people who followed many different traditions. Much of the OT is a hodge-podge of bronze-age henotheism and the several Jewish religious traditions that grew out of it. The Jahwe of the OT is but one god among many, a savage god for a savage time, and he doesn't even always come out on top in contests with other gods!

The NT is just as much a mix: if some of the authors were alive today they would be horrified to find out that they have been lumped together with the very people they were fomenting against! (the lying pens of scribes!). Biblical infallibility is a relatively recent idea, and for a good reason. Some parts of it would be called forgeries by modern people - several of the Pauline Epistles are widely accepted to have been written much later by a different author, even though in the Bible they are represented as Paul's work!

What people tend to think of as the messages of the Bible are really modern traditions of how the Bible is to be interpreted, a tradition that takes contemporary values and tries to somehow project these onto ancient texts, texts that were written by people who did not share these values.

If you are really interested in what the Bible actually says, then I suggest looking into modern academic bible scholarship. It is a fascinating field.

[velkyn]

I'd recommend you finding something that inspires and empowers you. I was raised Catholic and have left that far behind. I don't respond to guilt and damnation, but rather empowerment and inspiration. If atheism is what gives that to you, then have at it. But, it would be disappointing to give up on ALL religion if you haven't even tasted the other flavors and you're having a fight with this God that you've been taught should act one way but turns out to be another. Beware of religions that say they know what God is thinking!

The classic claims of a theist who has created their own religion in their image.   It'd also be nice if *any* religion actually could support the claims they make.  It's all woo and nonsense. 


EDIT: it'd also be nice if theists would actually answer questions put to them rather than running away and coming back months later as if nothing ever happened: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19301.261.html 

[Grimm]

I see two folks that are having crises of faith - let me offer you both an idea.

Can you prove to me that the God of your faith has more evidence for his or her existence than Voldemort, from Harry Potter - or, for that matter, Harry Potter?

This isn't as facetious a question as it sounds - we KNOW Harry Potter and Voldemort aren't real.  We can talk to the author, we were here when the books were written.  But - given just the evidence in the books - can you show me more evidence for the existence of your god than exists for these literary characters?

That's all any atheist wants, really.  That's all anybody wants - a reasonable set of evidence.  If you can't, then you need to go back and just ask yourself the question "why do you believe what you believe?"  Do you have good reason, or is it just a legacy of your upbringing? 

Those reasons, those points you'll raise, are the reasons you believe in spite of (or perhaps because of!) the lack of evidence I suspect you'll find.  Are they, in turn, valid? 

I don't post often these days, but I do hope that's some sort of help.

[YY]

Time to come out of the closet.

Nothing against gays, but atheists should really pick a different term.

Why? You're premoting an 'us and them' mentality. Uncool.

Total projection on my statement. Atheists should pick a different term because that one has already been used. Infringement. Do you think gays want to be associated with atheists? Some maybe, but if not all, atheists should pick a different term.

[YY]

The classic claims of a theist who has created their own religion in their image.   It'd also be nice if *any* religion actually could support the claims they make.  It's all woo and nonsense. 

EDIT: it'd also be nice if theists would actually answer questions put to them rather than running away and coming back months later as if nothing ever happened: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19301.261.html

Stll spreading the hate Velkyn?

I'm so sorry that I cannot park here and put all of my life's duties aside to answer questions to your liking. Life happens. When I attend to life's matters and leave the board, there will be unanswered questions. You can claim I'm running if that makes your ego feel better.

Please start another thread and list the questions you'd like me to answer. There were probably many unanswered questions in that thread and I don't feel like going through it in its entirety to figure out which one(s) weren't to your liking.

[Truth OT]

I see two folks that are having crises of faith - let me offer you both an idea.

Can you prove to me that the God of your faith has more evidence for his or her existence than Voldemort, from Harry Potter - or, for that matter, Harry Potter?

This isn't as facetious a question as it sounds - we KNOW Harry Potter and Voldemort aren't real.  We can talk to the author, we were here when the books were written.  But - given just the evidence in the books - can you show me more evidence for the existence of your god than exists for these literary characters?

That's all any atheist wants, really.  That's all anybody wants - a reasonable set of evidence.  If you can't, then you need to go back and just ask yourself the question "why do you believe what you believe?"  Do you have good reason, or is it just a legacy of your upbringing? 

Those reasons, those points you'll raise, are the reasons you believe in spite of (or perhaps because of!) the lack of evidence I suspect you'll find.  Are they, in turn, valid? 

I don't post often these days, but I do hope that's some sort of help.

What you ask is definitely not asking too much and is a very reasonable request. Truth be told, the evidence that exists for the God of the books that make up the Bible as being real is miniscule and pretty subjective. I know of no means a person living today could employ to prove God's existence, not a single way, despite the fact that I badly wish there was such a way.

So it would appear that me, and all others who believe (hope) as I do are in the same boat as the guy in his basement that believes Miss Universe wants him because a guy from Miss Universe's home town that claims he knew her who's story was a bit sketchy wrote a book claiming that Miss Universe dreamed of being with a guy with the same initials as the guy in the basement. It may be true, but it sure is a longshot.

The evidence that the texts provide cannot be relied upon to substantiate our faith in God, all it is able to do is give enough for the believer to hold out hope.

[JeffPT]

Just give it up already Truth OT.  Half the people who come to this website have been where you are.  You know too much.  You're too smart.  From what I've seen of your posting, I really think you've gone past the point of no return.  It's a matter of time. 

This is not a criticism.  It's a wonderful thing.  Embrace it. 

[The Wannabe]

Just give it up already Truth OT.  Half the people who come to this website have been where you are.  You know too much.  You're too smart.  From what I've seen of your posting, I really think you've gone past the point of no return.  It's a matter of time. 

This is not a criticism.  It's a wonderful thing.  Embrace it.

I concur.  Unless you have a good reason to continue living a lie, it seems like it's time to let go of christianity and the guilt that is intrinsic to its dogma.

Jump on in TOT, the water's fine. 

[Chronos]

It is not fun claiming a literal bible sometimes. But instead of calling half of it figurative like some. I would just rather be an athiest. The miracles of the bible either did or didn't happen.

If you think the bible is the literal word of god, but you find that a passage/declaration/teaching is untrue, why do you continue to believe any of it? Why do you have to have each/every/multiple aspects of the bible torn down by the rest of us for you to disbelieve? It sounds like the bible is a debate game and you are just going to go with the team that wins more points by the time the buzzer sounds.

Have I misunderstood what you want?

[Anfauglir]

it'd also be nice if theists would actually answer questions put to them rather than running away and coming back months later as if nothing ever happened: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19301.261.html

I'm so sorry that I cannot park here and put all of my life's duties aside to answer questions to your liking. Life happens. When I attend to life's matters and leave the board, there will be unanswered questions. You can claim I'm running if that makes your ego feel better.

Please start another thread and list the questions you'd like me to answer. There were probably many unanswered questions in that thread and I don't feel like going through it in its entirety to figure out which one(s) weren't to your liking.

Ah, it's THAT YY. 

I don't think there is any need for a new thread, YY.  There are direct questions from myself and from globalvalue on the very last page of the thread (that Velkyn helpfully linked to) that you could simply answer.....if you so chose.  I give my "mod-okay" to you resurrecting it to answer those questions. 

If you choose.

[velkyn]

The classic claims of a theist who has created their own religion in their image.   It'd also be nice if *any* religion actually could support the claims they make.  It's all woo and nonsense. 

EDIT: it'd also be nice if theists would actually answer questions put to them rather than running away and coming back months later as if nothing ever happened: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19301.261.html

Stll spreading the hate Velkyn?

Nope, no hate at all. To hate someone on the internet is rather silly, especially when there are so many like you.  Just noting your actions.  The usual ones of a theists who can't answer questions and then runs away.   One doesn't have to hate to notice just how people act.  I will admit that it is rather fun to point out how such people who claim that they are so good because of their religion act no better than anyone else and often far worse.

I'm so sorry that I cannot park here and put all of my life's duties aside to answer questions to your liking. Life happens. When I attend to life's matters and leave the board, there will be unanswered questions. You can claim I'm running if that makes your ego feel better.

Nice strawman but it fails.  I am asking you to answer questions you've left hanging, and alas for you, no, attending life's matters doesn't mean that you simply *must* never ever answer questions left for you to answer.   Why don't you do that?  They're still there waiting.

Please start another thread and list the questions you'd like me to answer. There were probably many unanswered questions in that thread and I don't feel like going through it in its entirety to figure out which one(s) weren't to your liking.

I see that Aunfauglir isn't adverse to you just answering his last questions in the old thread.  However, it if is indeed so difficult for you, let me know and I'll give you the remedial version.  I am also amused at your rather pathetic little excuse since, YY, you can just find the last post that you didn't respond to on that thread.   I suppose I should feel a bit sorry for you in that you are unable to find something so simple.

[natlegend]

Time to come out of the closet.

Nothing against gays, but atheists should really pick a different term.

Crap, does that mean the monster in my closet could be HOMOSEXUAL AS WELL???

[lotanddaughters]

What you ask is definitely not asking too much and is a very reasonable request. Truth be told, the evidence that exists for the God of the books that make up the Bible as being real is miniscule and pretty subjective. I know of no means a person living today could employ to prove God's existence, not a single way, despite the fact that I badly wish there was such a way.

So it would appear that me, and all others who believe (hope) as I do are in the same boat as the guy in his basement that believes Miss Universe wants him because a guy from Miss Universe's home town that claims he knew her who's story was a bit sketchy wrote a book claiming that Miss Universe dreamed of being with a guy with the same initials as the guy in the basement. It may be true, but it sure is a longshot.

Remember:

There are people who not only hope but "know" that their god exists. Just think about the devout Muslims who took flight classes and carried out their plan to fly planes into buildings, thus violently ending their lives for their bullshit god. This is the fucked up reality of bullshit beliefs. This barbaric bullshit is not much different than Leviticus minus the gradual Enlightenment.

The truth is evident. The Bible was written by primitive, ruthless men, and you can learn way more stuff by visiting whywontgodhealamputees.com than you could ever learn by attending any Goddamn church where you suckle the cum out of the preacher's cock.

[Grimm]

What you ask is definitely not asking too much and is a very reasonable request. Truth be told, the evidence that exists for the God of the books that make up the Bible as being real is miniscule and pretty subjective. I know of no means a person living today could employ to prove God's existence, not a single way, despite the fact that I badly wish there was such a way.

So it would appear that me, and all others who believe (hope) as I do are in the same boat as the guy in his basement that believes Miss Universe wants him because a guy from Miss Universe's home town that claims he knew her who's story was a bit sketchy wrote a book claiming that Miss Universe dreamed of being with a guy with the same initials as the guy in the basement. It may be true, but it sure is a longshot.

The evidence that the texts provide cannot be relied upon to substantiate our faith in God, all it is able to do is give enough for the believer to hold out hope.

*nods*  This precise thought was what led me away from my own faith.  There were certainly other items, but that's the biggest.

Just.. be careful of 'hope'.  There's nothing at all wrong with hope - hope leads us to believe that the world can be better than it is, and I certainly do believe that myself.  Placing your hope, however, is.. valuable.  Faith in a higher being is one of those things where misplaced hope results in lost time, guilt, suffering, and other negative effects that are the direct result of following a path, as faith is, that is devoted to the service of another being with specific, stated needs.  It is possible - in fact easy - to be good without God, but it is incredibly difficult to lead a fulfilling, full existence when saddled with the insistence on an afterlife and appeasing the deity to achieve it.

Be good.  Help others.  Live each day as though you want the next to be better, and act to improve it yourself - these are good things.  I simply found that walking away from faith was as liberating as breaking up with a horrid ex-girlfriend.

Comfortable doesn't always mean best.