God's "all-loving" nature

[ungod]

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Well then, I guess nobody is going to Hell, since everybody's sins have been atoned for. Place must be empty. Now why would an omniscient god build a place he has no use for?

[curiousgirl]

Matthew 13:58
Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Actually, that is a bit too convenient. It would be more logical (see Occam's razor) that God did not do the works because he does not exist. Unless you want to convince us otherwise.

[Brakeman]

That sure takes the steam out of Pascal's wager, if an eternity of hell is similarly compressed into three hours, then it wouldn't be quite so bad..

[Brakeman]

I think this is the quote he intended:

Mark 6:5

King James Version (KJV)
(about Jesus)
 5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.


[Evidently there the people had seen many magic tricks by hucksters before and were not so gullible.)

[albeto]

And, if God is omnipotent, howcum He can be defeated by Iron chariots?

Matthew 13:58
Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

So God's power comes by people believing in him? 

[One Above All]

And, if God is omnipotent, howcum He can be defeated by Iron chariots?

Matthew 13:58
Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

A god whose power is limited by people's belief in it? That explains why he's so insecure.

[screwtape]

See the bolded language from the Isaiah passage.

Isaiah was before jesus H.  In fact, it was 500-700 years before jesus H.  For that to be a relevant passage, you have to make the case that it was being written about him.

1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

"The iniquity of us all." Sins of "the whole world." When else do you suppose Jesus paid for those?

Yes, it says that.  But you are doing apologetics.  That is, you assume your conclusion to be true and then make the explanation produce that outcome.

Matthew 13:58
Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Is that like those kung fu masters who kick the snot out of their students with invisible "ki", yet it has no effect whatsoever on people who are not students?   Seems like a cop out to me.  An omnipotent god's magic should not hinge on belief.

[dloubet]

Matthew 13:58
Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Dude! You just reduced your god to Tinkerbell!

You really want to stick to that story?

[Gnu Ordure]

Denis/Screwtape/Lucifer,

I read the Matthew quote to mean that Jesus chose not to do his stuff (because they were unbelievers), not that he was unable to.

<thinks...> On the other hand, surely the unbelievers were the very people his 'mighty works' should have been aimed at? Another hole in the christian narrative....

[riley2112]

But, if God loved us soooo much why would he cast in to hell for ETERNITY.  I have a 7 month old son and if he were to die today, according to the Bible, he would go to hell.  What did he do that was so bad?  Yes, he goes to our entertainment center and pulls out all of my PS3 games on a daily basis.  Yes, he has started reaching into his diaper and playing with his poo. And yes, he throws up on me at least once a week, but none of those things deserve an eternity... much less one second in hell.  If God is our father, than he is the worst father that has ever lived.

I have posted in other areas here and I am always told to post some source of where my information comes from. If I post anything that says God is real, without posting some sort of proof, then I am preaching, and that is against the rules..lol.. however putting something against God on here with out quoting your sources is OK. I am not asking anyone to believe or not believe but it seems to me that the deck is kinda stacked against the believer here.. It also seems to me that it is easy to tell when someone posting has really not studied the source and studying the source is different than reading through it and believing you are smart enough to understand what it mean the first time ... just saying.. OK , now rip me apart..lol

[albeto]

I have posted in other areas here and I am always told to post some source of where my information comes from. If I post anything that says God is real, without posting some sort of proof, then I am preaching, and that is against the rules..lol.. however putting something against God on here with out quoting your sources is OK. I am not asking anyone to believe or not believe but it seems to me that the deck is kinda stacked against the believer here.. It also seems to me that it is easy to tell when someone posting has really not studied the source and studying the source is different than reading through it and believing you are smart enough to understand what it mean the first time ... just saying.. OK , now rip me apart..lol

In what way does this answer the question?

[velkyn]

I have posted in other areas here and I am always told to post some source of where my information comes from. If I post anything that says God is real, without posting some sort of proof, then I am preaching, and that is against the rules..lol.. however putting something against God on here with out quoting your sources is OK. I am not asking anyone to believe or not believe but it seems to me that the deck is kinda stacked against the believer here.. It also seems to me that it is easy to tell when someone posting has really not studied the source and studying the source is different than reading through it and believing you are smart enough to understand what it mean the first time ... just saying.. OK , now rip me apart..lol

Well, riley, the deck is always stacked against a theist when it comes to reality.  None of you, be you Christian, Jew, Muslim, Wicca, Hindu, etc, have any evidence, and thus all of your claims are equal, simply myths and superstition.

I disagree with your claim that you aren’t asking anyone to believe or not believe.  You keep making claims and that seems to indicate that you think we should believe your nonsense.  You only get befuddled when we don’t automatically and ask for evidence. 

As for how you think it’s easy to tell when someone has or hasn’t studied the source, and I assume you mean the bible here, you are wrong.  All you are doing is making the good ol’ “true Scotsman” fallacy.   You are trying to claim that the only “right” way to understand your bible is *your* way.  And that is unsupportable by you.  All theists, and especially Christians, all think that their interpretation is what God “really” meant.  I was a Christian, and I thought that too, until I realized that there was no more evidence for the Presbyterian way than there was for the Jehovah Witnesses or the Mormons, or the Catholics or whatever variant of “evangelical Christian” you could care to mention.  Again, none of you have any more evidence that your particular religion is right than the next.  I’ve asked various theists to do the Elijah test, to show whose god is “real” and not surprisingly, they all find excuses not to. 

Christians all claim different things about their god.  Why the problem with getting a message through for this supposedly omnipotent/omniscient/omnibenevolent being?  Why do some Chrsitians claim that all non-beleivers are going straight to a literal fire and brimstone hell and some claim that hell is only being “apart” from God?  Why do we have some Christians sure that original sin is in play but others not?  It seems that Christians, and other theists, simply create their own god dependent on their personal hates and desires.  A good person will have a decent god, a bigot will have a god that supports just what he thinks.  And all are just as ludicrous as the next.   

[songpak3000]

Not only is God loving but he is Holy and Just.  Think about that for a second.  Love and Justice go hand in hand.  Because of the sins of their forefathers, God will punish them for a thousand generations.  And ultimately, this loving God has also created an everlasting hell for those that choose not to put their faith in him and go on living sinful lives.  God is so holy and perfect that we as humans fall completely short of His standard of holiness.  In the Old Testamnet Law (10 Commandments) God wrote the first law which was to have no other gods and idols before Him.  Imagine if you as a "Loving Parent" allow your own child to do whatever they wanted to do because... you loved them.  So if your child wanted to eat all the candy in the world and eat junk food and stay up late at night and miss school, you would let him because you supposedly 'loved him.'  God on the other hand is so perfect and holy, that it says in the Book of Revelations that thousands and thousands of angels are worshipping God and bowing before Him on His throne.  Since God is also just as we noted, He cannot leave sin unpunished.  We may think Sin is nothing, when you can live however you'd like.  God is going to judge everyone here on earth to account for the things they did with their lives, their bodies, idle words, actions, motives and deeds.  However, the Good News is that since we have Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, we can all repent of our sinful deeds and put our trust in Him.  And those punishments that should have come upon you because of your sinful forefathers will be wiped clean from you.  We are living in a period of Grace and should be thankful for the opportunity to repent and live a righteous life before God.  In fact, all of us deserve hell, because to God, sin is that serious.  But His Love calls all to repent and put their faith in Him.  Blessings.

[albeto]

Not only is God loving but he is Holy and Just.

Says who?  God? 

Think about that for a second.  Love and Justice go hand in hand.  Because of the sins of their forefathers, God will punish them for a thousand generations.  And ultimately, this loving God has also created an everlasting hell for those that choose not to put their faith in him and go on living sinful lives.  God is so holy and perfect that we as humans fall completely short of His standard of holiness.  In the Old Testamnet Law (10 Commandments) God wrote the first law which was to have no other gods and idols before Him.  Imagine if you as a "Loving Parent" allow your own child to do whatever they wanted to do because... you loved them.  So if your child wanted to eat all the candy in the world and eat junk food and stay up late at night and miss school, you would let him because you supposedly 'loved him.'  God on the other hand is so perfect and holy, that it says in the Book of Revelations that thousands and thousands of angels are worshipping God and bowing before Him on His throne.  Since God is also just as we noted, He cannot leave sin unpunished.  We may think Sin is nothing, when you can live however you'd like.  God is going to judge everyone here on earth to account for the things they did with their lives, their bodies, idle words, actions, motives and deeds.  However, the Good News is that since we have Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, we can all repent of our sinful deeds and put our trust in Him.  And those punishments that should have come upon you because of your sinful forefathers will be wiped clean from you.  We are living in a period of Grace and should be thankful for the opportunity to repent and live a righteous life before God.  In fact, all of us deserve hell, because to God, sin is that serious.  But His Love calls all to repent and put their faith in Him.  Blessings.

Oh brother.   

Is it inconceivable to you that people could have spent oodles of time pondering just this thing, spending hours and hours and days and weeks and years in prayer and coming to another conclusion?  Like, oh, the character of your god in your bible isn't loving but manipulative, egoistic, maniacal, evil and that the Jesus character was conceived only after Paul stormed through the area trying to convert people? 

[Astreja]

Not only is God loving but he is Holy and Just.

So your god *doesn't* torture anyone in Hell for eternity, then?  Because if he does, he's not loving, not holy and not just.

Love and Justice go hand in hand.  Because of the sins of their forefathers, God will punish them for a thousand generations.

I thought you claimed that your god was "just."  Punishing children for the crimes of their parents is injustice.

And ultimately, this loving God has also created an everlasting hell for those that choose not to put their faith in him and go on living sinful lives.

And you worship this... this barbarian?  Thanks for telling me that.  The fact that you would willingly revere such a right bastard as Biblegod tells Me that you are immoral and that I should never, ever trust you with a task of any importance.

God is so holy and perfect that we as humans fall completely short of His standard of holiness.

That reflects more on your god than on humans, you know.  A god that is upset to be in the presence of imperfection is a total weakling.

God is going to judge everyone here on earth to account for the things they did with their lives, their bodies, idle words, actions, motives and deeds.

I doubt that very, very much.  Since life after death is mythical until proven otherwise, I say that no, there will not be any such judgment.

However, the Good News is that since we have Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, we can all repent of our sinful deeds and put our trust in Him.

And you're okay with accepting a human sacrifice and letting someone else die in your place?  Sucks to be you.

In fact, all of us deserve hell, because to God, sin is that serious.

No one "deserves" hell.  Get real.

[Aaron123]

Not only is God loving but he is Holy and Just.  Think about that for a second.  Love and Justice go hand in hand.  Because of the sins of their forefathers, God will punish them for a thousand generations.  And ultimately, this loving God has also created an everlasting hell for those that choose not to put their faith in him and go on living sinful lives.  God is so holy and perfect that we as humans fall completely short of His standard of holiness.  In the Old Testamnet Law (10 Commandments) God wrote the first law which was to have no other gods and idols before Him.  Imagine if you as a "Loving Parent" allow your own child to do whatever they wanted to do because... you loved them.  So if your child wanted to eat all the candy in the world and eat junk food and stay up late at night and miss school, you would let him because you supposedly 'loved him.'  God on the other hand is so perfect and holy, that it says in the Book of Revelations that thousands and thousands of angels are worshipping God and bowing before Him on His throne.  Since God is also just as we noted, He cannot leave sin unpunished.  We may think Sin is nothing, when you can live however you'd like.  God is going to judge everyone here on earth to account for the things they did with their lives, their bodies, idle words, actions, motives and deeds.  However, the Good News is that since we have Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, we can all repent of our sinful deeds and put our trust in Him.  And those punishments that should have come upon you because of your sinful forefathers will be wiped clean from you.  We are living in a period of Grace and should be thankful for the opportunity to repent and live a righteous life before God.  In fact, all of us deserve hell, because to God, sin is that serious.  But His Love calls all to repent and put their faith in Him.  Blessings.

Right now, I'm incapable of reading through that stuff, as my eyes just glazes once I get past the first couple sentences.  So instead of going through each things, I'll just cut to the chase:

What proof do you have that any of that stuff is real, as opposed to a bunch of babble made up thousands of years ago?

[jetson]

Not only is God loving but he is Holy and Just.  Think about that for a second.  Love and Justice go hand in hand.  Because of the sins of their forefathers, God will punish them for a thousand generations.  And ultimately, this loving God has also created an everlasting hell for those that choose not to put their faith in him and go on living sinful lives.  God is so holy and perfect that we as humans fall completely short of His standard of holiness.  In the Old Testamnet Law (10 Commandments) God wrote the first law which was to have no other gods and idols before Him.  Imagine if you as a "Loving Parent" allow your own child to do whatever they wanted to do because... you loved them.  So if your child wanted to eat all the candy in the world and eat junk food and stay up late at night and miss school, you would let him because you supposedly 'loved him.'  God on the other hand is so perfect and holy, that it says in the Book of Revelations that thousands and thousands of angels are worshipping God and bowing before Him on His throne.  Since God is also just as we noted, He cannot leave sin unpunished.  We may think Sin is nothing, when you can live however you'd like.  God is going to judge everyone here on earth to account for the things they did with their lives, their bodies, idle words, actions, motives and deeds.  However, the Good News is that since we have Jesus, the ultimate sacrifice, we can all repent of our sinful deeds and put our trust in Him.  And those punishments that should have come upon you because of your sinful forefathers will be wiped clean from you.  We are living in a period of Grace and should be thankful for the opportunity to repent and live a righteous life before God.  In fact, all of us deserve hell, because to God, sin is that serious.  But His Love calls all to repent and put their faith in Him.  Blessings.

songpak3000,

Welcome to the forum.  Please take some time to read through our forum rules that you agreed to abide by when you registered.  This is a forum for discussion, not a place where people "preach" their personal beliefs without citing facts and evidence to support them.  Your post above is considered preaching.  As you can see, members are asking you to show where your assertions above are supported by demonstrable facts and/or evidence.  If you have any questions, you may send a private message to any moderator.

Jetson

[riley2112]

How would you define Holy and just, songpak3000?

[One Above All]

God is just... Well, let's start punishing kids for their parents' "sins". Per the Bible, everyone is a sinner and the punishment for sin is removing a body part that caused you to sin and/or death.

God's gonna have a lot more amputees to not heal when we're done...

[dloubet]

So if your child wanted to eat all the candy in the world and eat junk food and stay up late at night and miss school, you would let him because you supposedly 'loved him.

No, but I would also not burn them forever in a lake of fire, as you apparently approve of.

[velkyn]

  In the Old Testamnet Law (10 Commandments) God wrote the first law which was to have no other gods and idols before Him. 

another Christian who is again too ignorant of their own bible to realize that the commandments are many many more than just the first 10. 

[Ivellios]

Not only is God loving but he is Holy and Just.  Think about that for a second.  Love and Justice go hand in hand.  Because of the sins of their forefathers, God will punish them for a thousand generations.

Did your Grand-parents punish you for everything you parents did wrong?

I'd rather have Grand-parent love over God's "love" any day!

To think someone deserves to be punished for something done by thier ancestors 40,000 years ago[1]... WOW.

To call that "Love" and "Justice" ...

someone's a sick puppy.

1.	40 years per generation, 1,000 generations...

[composer]

Not only is God loving but he is Holy and Just. 

And a figment of imaginations like yours now!

Think about that for a second.  Love and Justice go hand in hand.  Because of the sins of their forefathers, God will punish them for a thousand generations.

For starters Deut. 24:16 & Ezek. 18:20 refute that claim!

The Christian understanding is that the messiah, Jesus, died for the sins of the people. The messiah is supposed to be a human sacrifice that is the blood sacrifice necessary for the forgiveness of sin.

But we are taught in this proven self contradicting bible that no one can die for the sins of another. -

In Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV) it specifically says this:

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the father. Every man shall be put to death for his own sin. (Online Source: http://whatjewsbelieve.org/) - What Jews believe Point 1.)
 
cf. 
 
Fathers must not be put to death for what their children24 do, nor children for what their fathers do; each must be put to death for his own sin. (Deut. 24:16) NET (See also: post2966264 (Post#1586, story book contradictions Deut. 24:16 Oops! Ex. 20: 5. LOL!))
 
This was later confirmed by -
 
Ezekiel 18:20 RSV

"THE SON SHALL NOT SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE FATHER. NOR THE FATHER SUFFER FOR THE INIQUITY OF THE SON; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

Ezekiel 18:20 also "pulls the rug out from under" Christianity's main premise, that all generations of mankind are burdened with sin and death stemming from Adam's act of disobedience. Only Christ's redeeming shed blood can end this never-ending cycle of sin and death. Quite clearly Ezekiel refutes this notion. "The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father." (Online Source: http://www.bibleorigins.net/MoabiteBloodMessiah.html)   

Much better luck next times!