Author Topic: God's "all-loving" nature  (Read 11193 times)

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Offline ungod

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Re: Original Sin Issue
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2011, 08:58:28 AM »
So, God is really the One who calls both the circumcised and the uncircumcised righteous because of their faith.

Well, if they're both equally righteous, then why would anyone be stupid enough to go through the
painful and risky surgical procedure? DUH!
 :? :? :?
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Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #88 on: November 02, 2011, 02:51:10 PM »
I admit that I did not read every reply in this thread - or even look at other threads - so forgive me if other Christians have already made this point, but I do think it is somewhat of a straw-man argument to say that God is all-loving.

No verse in the Bible says that God is all-loving. He hates too. If he were all-loving, he would not hate at all.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #89 on: November 02, 2011, 02:57:49 PM »
No verse in the Bible says that God is all-loving. He hates too. If he were all-loving, he would not hate at all.

Tell that to other theists.
PS: Why would you worship a being like that?
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Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #90 on: November 02, 2011, 03:00:59 PM »
No verse in the Bible says that God is all-loving. He hates too. If he were all-loving, he would not hate at all.

Tell that to other theists.
PS: Why would you worship a being like that?

I have told that to other theists. One of my best friends is a Deist, and he didn't know there was no verse in the Bible that says God is all-loving. He was a little surprised and agreed with me that it's therefore a straw-man argument.

It would trouble me more if God were all-loving. Think about it. That would mean he would have to love everything that happens. I'm glad he hates evil.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #91 on: November 02, 2011, 03:04:17 PM »
I have told that to other theists. One of my best friends is a Deist, and he didn't know there was no verse in the Bible that says God is all-loving. He was a little surprised and agreed with me that it's therefore a straw-man argument.

Not a strawman. A strawman would be to take something that theists say and twist it so that it can be easily debunked. Many theists claim that their god is all-loving; this topic was my attempt to show them that they're wrong.

It would trouble me more if God were all-loving. Think about it. That would mean he would have to love everything that happens. I'm glad he hates evil.

If we're talking about the god of the Bible, he created evil in the first place. He is responsible for it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #92 on: November 02, 2011, 03:09:33 PM »
I have told that to other theists. One of my best friends is a Deist, and he didn't know there was no verse in the Bible that says God is all-loving. He was a little surprised and agreed with me that it's therefore a straw-man argument.

Not a strawman. A strawman would be to take something that theists say and twist it so that it can be easily debunked. Many theists claim that their god is all-loving; this topic was my attempt to show them that they're wrong.

It would trouble me more if God were all-loving. Think about it. That would mean he would have to love everything that happens. I'm glad he hates evil.

If we're talking about the god of the Bible, he created evil in the first place. He is responsible for it.

Fair enough, I'll concede it's not a straw-man as to all Christians. Would you concede that it is a straw-man as to some of them?

I'll also concede your next two points, that God created evil and that he is therefore responsible for it (assuming we're taking what the Bible says as the premise). If we take what the Bible says as the premise, though, then we must also conclude that God has already held himself fully responsible for all evil on the cross.

In other words, if Jesus really is God incarnate, as the Bible says, then God did not exempt himself from suffering. He bore more of it than anyone.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #93 on: November 02, 2011, 03:13:59 PM »
Fair enough, I'll concede it's not a straw-man as to all Christians. Would you concede that it is a straw-man as to some of them?

No, I would not. This is not meant for christians who don't believe god is all-loving; that would just be stupid.

I'll also concede your next two points, that God created evil and that he is therefore responsible for it (assuming we're taking what the Bible says as the premise). If we take what the Bible says as the premise, though, then we must also conclude that God has already held himself fully responsible for all evil on the cross.

No, he didn't. If he had, he would've used his omnipotence to oh, I dunno... eliminate evil forever?

In other words, if Jesus really is God incarnate, as the Bible says, then God did not exempt himself from suffering. He bore more of it than anyone.

He most certainly did not. According to the Bible there are people burning in hell right now and will continue to be there for all eternity because your god created both hell and evil. He spent two days dead and then went right back to being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #94 on: November 02, 2011, 03:33:23 PM »
No, I would not. This is not meant for christians who don't believe god is all-loving; that would just be stupid.

Let's begin with a definition if you don't mind.

"Straw man. This is the fallacy of refuting a caricatured or extreme version of somebody's argument, rather than the actual argument they've made. Often this fallacy involves putting words into somebody's mouth by saying they've made arguments they haven't actually made..."

(From: http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html#Straw%20man ; please let me know if that definition is unacceptable to you.)

I, and many other Christians, are not making the argument that God is all-loving. The Bible itself is not making that argument. If you want to make that argument to a Unitarian-Universalist, be my guest lol.

No, he didn't. If he had, he would've used his omnipotence to oh, I dunno... eliminate evil forever?

Taking the Bible as written, again, he will do that one day in the future. But that doesn't mean he hasn't already accounted for all evil, including the evil that hasn't even happened yet. I trust you see the distinction.

He most certainly did not. According to the Bible there are people burning in hell right now and will continue to be there for all eternity because your god created both hell and evil. He spent two days dead and then went right back to being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

Just because people reject the Gospel doesn't mean God didn't pay for their sins too. God punished Jesus for the sins of all.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #95 on: November 02, 2011, 03:44:00 PM »
No, I would not. This is not meant for christians who don't believe god is all-loving; that would just be stupid.

Let's begin with a definition if you don't mind.
<snip>

Actually, let's begin with reading what I wrote. I've put the relevant part in bold.

Taking the Bible as written, again, he will do that one day in the future. But that doesn't mean he hasn't already accounted for all evil, including the evil that hasn't even happened yet. I trust you see the distinction.

Oh, he will do that one day in the future. I'm sorry that now is such a bad time for him, but now is when people are dying because of evil people. In fact, people have been dying because of evil people since about... 6000-10000[1] years ago.

Just because people reject the Gospel doesn't mean God didn't pay for their sins too. God punished Jesus for the sins of all.

God made Jesus (himself) spend a bad weekend in a cave.[2] Then he rose to supreme overlord of the entire universe. If that deal was available to everyone, I'd take it in a heartbeat.
 1. Assuming creationists' claims are correct.
 2. Boo-hoo.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #96 on: November 02, 2011, 04:03:11 PM »
So now you're saying the bolded language is a concession? I was trying to read it in a way consistent with the prefatory refusal to make the concession.

But that's of little significance.

Now wouldn't be a bad time for God to end evil. It would be a bad time for you, though. He is slow to anger. He is patient. He's giving you every opportunity in the world to accept the Gospel so that when you die, you'll have no excuse for rejecting it.

Your last point is merely another straw man. I seriously doubt whether you genuinely believe any Christian is making the argument that Jesus simply spent a bad weekend in a cave. That is a gross mis-characterization and weakens your credibility. You can do better than that. (And according to the Bible, Jesus was already "supreme overlord." He didn't become that only after his "bad weekend.")
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #97 on: November 02, 2011, 04:11:38 PM »
So now you're saying the bolded language is a concession? I was trying to read it in a way consistent with the prefatory refusal to make the concession.

The bold part is a clear statement that this argument is only directed at christians who claim that their god is all-loving.

Now wouldn't be a bad time for God to end evil. It would be a bad time for you, though. He is slow to anger. He is patient. He's giving you every opportunity in the world to accept the Gospel so that when you die, you'll have no excuse for rejecting it.

I'm sorry, I don't speak preacher. If you have any evidence for your specific version of a god that cannot be used as evidence for any other deity, feel free to show it.

Your last point is merely another straw man.

No, it's what is written. Jesus was dead for two days (a weekend) and rose from the dead. Doesn't sound that bad.

I seriously doubt whether you genuinely believe any Christian is making the argument that Jesus simply spent a bad weekend in a cave. That is a gross mis-characterization and weakens your credibility. You can do better than that. (And according to the Bible, Jesus was already "supreme overlord." He didn't become that only after his "bad weekend.")

See above. So all he really did was spend two days dead. Surely that makes up for creating evil and being responsible for millions of deaths.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline ungod

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #98 on: November 02, 2011, 04:28:38 PM »
No, he didn't. If he had, he would've used his omnipotence to oh, I dunno... eliminate evil forever?

Taking the Bible as written, again, he will do that one day in the future.

Since there are evil souls who are burning in Hell FOR ALL ETERNITY, will this act of God take place before, or after, the end of eternity? Any idea how long that will be?
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Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #99 on: November 02, 2011, 04:41:15 PM »
Since there are evil souls who are burning in Hell FOR ALL ETERNITY, will this act of God take place before, or after, the end of eternity? Any idea how long that will be?

It will take place before the end of eternity lol. And no, I'm no Camping.
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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #100 on: November 02, 2011, 04:51:37 PM »
The bold part is a clear statement that this argument is only directed at christians who claim that their god is all-loving.
Ok, then we're just in semantics. You don't want to call it a concession. Call it whatever you want lol.
I'm sorry, I don't speak preacher. If you have any evidence for your specific version of a god that cannot be used as evidence for any other deity, feel free to show it.
Let's see if you'll go along with the following definition of evidence: "all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation at judicial trial, is established or disproved" (16 A.2d 80, 89), "[which] includes the testimony of witnesses, introduction of records, documents, exhibits, objects, or any other probative matter offered for the purpose of inducing belief in the party's contention by the fact-finder." Gifis, Steven H. Barron's Law Dictionary, 5th.

If not, I understand. I have no interest in debating the existence of God. That's almost always completely pointless. But I refer you to that definition of evidence to emphasize that oral testimony from witnesses is important in every legal system. So are records.
No, it's what is written. Jesus was dead for two days (a weekend) and rose from the dead. Doesn't sound that bad.
Gross understatement. Jesus didn't pay for our sins while he was dead but on the cross.
See above. So all he really did was spend two days dead. Surely that makes up for creating evil and being responsible for millions of deaths.
See above. Gross understatement. Jesus didn't account for all evil by being dead for two days but by incurring an eternity of punishment on the cross.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #101 on: November 02, 2011, 04:55:19 PM »
Let's see if you'll go along with the following definition of evidence: "all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation at judicial trial, is established or disproved" (16 A.2d 80, 89), "[which] includes the testimony of witnesses, introduction of records, documents, exhibits, objects, or any other probative matter offered for the purpose of inducing belief in the party's contention by the fact-finder." Gifis, Steven H. Barron's Law Dictionary, 5th.

If not, I understand. I have no interest in debating the existence of God. That's almost always completely pointless. But I refer you to that definition of evidence to emphasize that oral testimony from witnesses is important in every legal system. So are records.

If you have no interest in debating the existence of your god, we're done on that subject.

See above. Gross understatement. Jesus didn't account for all evil by being dead for two days but by incurring an eternity of punishment on the cross.

If it really was an "eternity of punishment", he'd still be on the cross. Guess what? He's not.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #102 on: November 02, 2011, 05:06:58 PM »
If you have no interest in debating the existence of your god, we're done on that subject.
Agreed.
If it really was an "eternity of punishment", he'd still be on the cross. Guess what? He's not.
You know, the funny thing is God invented time too. If he wanted to compress an eternity into three hours, he could do that, because he's omnipotent.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #103 on: November 02, 2011, 05:10:00 PM »
You know, the funny thing is God invented time too. If he wanted to compress an eternity into three hours, he could do that, because he's omnipotent.

You know what's even funnier? The fact that the Bible mentions nothing of what you claim.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #104 on: November 02, 2011, 05:13:33 PM »
You know, the funny thing is God invented time too. If he wanted to compress an eternity into three hours, he could do that, because he's omnipotent.

You know what's even funnier? The fact that the Bible mentions nothing of what you claim.

I've got to admit, though, that I haven't seen that particular take on it before. Whether or not it means I've been living under a rock, I don't know. It doesn't seem to be strictly Biblical, though. Is there any verse or interpretation to back that up?

Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #105 on: November 02, 2011, 05:17:57 PM »
Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. (Matthew 27:45 NKJV)

Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour. (Mark 15:33 NKJV)

Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two. And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said,  “Father,  ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’ ” Having said this, He breathed His last.
 So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, “Certainly this was a righteous Man!” And the whole crowd who came together to that sight, seeing what had been done, beat their breasts and returned. (Luke 23:44-48 NKJV)

Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. But He  was  wounded for our transgressions,  He was  bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace  was  upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor  was any  deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put  Him  to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see  His  seed, He shall prolong  His  days, And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand. (Isaiah 53:4-10 NKJV)
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Offline One Above All

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #106 on: November 02, 2011, 05:20:02 PM »
Still not seeing the "eternity in three hours" bit. All that I see is "typical (for the time) painful execution for sins God caused himself".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #107 on: November 02, 2011, 05:28:41 PM »
I don't see it either. The only thing it seems to say is that a supremely innocent man suffered for three hours. Not meaning to be obtuse here, but where is there any indication that an eternity was encompassed within that timespan?

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #108 on: November 02, 2011, 05:30:12 PM »
See the bolded language from the Isaiah passage.
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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #109 on: November 02, 2011, 05:31:47 PM »
See the bolded language from the Isaiah passage.

I saw it. It says that Jesus was punished for our misdeeds[1], but nothing about "eternity in three hours".
 1. Which, by the way, is grossly unfair, but that's a discussion for another time.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #110 on: November 02, 2011, 05:32:53 PM »
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

"The iniquity of us all." Sins of "the whole world." When else do you suppose Jesus paid for those?
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #111 on: November 02, 2011, 05:34:13 PM »
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

"The iniquity of us all." Sins of "the whole world." When else do you suppose Jesus paid for those?

During the finite three hours he was on the cross?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #112 on: November 02, 2011, 05:34:24 PM »
If you have no interest in debating the existence of your god, we're done on that subject.
Agreed.
If it really was an "eternity of punishment", he'd still be on the cross. Guess what? He's not.
You know, the funny thing is God invented time too. If he wanted to compress an eternity into three hours, he could do that, because he's omnipotent.
Gee, how does he do that? And how do you know - have you observed it? Or did you just make that up?
Since God lives outside of spacetime, how does he interact with time? Isn't there a barrier at the edge of time, like a black hole event horizon?
And, if God is omnipotent, howcum He can be defeated by Iron chariots?
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline idontknow

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #113 on: November 02, 2011, 05:37:21 PM »
And, if God is omnipotent, howcum He can be defeated by Iron chariots?

Matthew 13:58
Now He did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #114 on: November 02, 2011, 05:38:12 PM »
But, being omnipotent, he'd also have the ability to compress all the iniquities of the world's people into 3 hours...and one would imagine that the creator of a universe would know something about efficiency.

Offline ungod

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Re: God's "all-loving" nature
« Reply #115 on: November 02, 2011, 05:43:14 PM »
1 John 2:2
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

"The iniquity of us all." Sins of "the whole world." When else do you suppose Jesus paid for those?

Doin the Fundy Shuffle are ya! Meanwhile, where's the "eternity compressed into three hours" quote?

 &) :police: :laugh: :laugh:
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler