Author Topic: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong  (Read 8671 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« on: September 13, 2011, 02:43:05 PM »
I have seen the following quote and others like it quite often.

Quote
So show it.  Show how the bible supports you and only you.

I have then proceeded to jump in and go back and forth without addressing first, something of fundemental importance and that is that I MAKE NO SUCH BROAD CLAIMS!
Arguments based on this line of reasoning tend to be all over the place and rarely do the parties stick to the subject up for discussion and eventually the argument that started in or about 1 issue has moved to another issue. The argument initially put forth by the theist such as myself would start off by asserting that the Bible's message on a specific and particular subject is 'A'. We then show why we make that assertation only to be refuted with the Strawman of "why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong" as opposed to scripture that stands opposed to what has been declared by the theist.

The issue made by the provacators seems to be one of a "Mr. or ms. Theist, you are arrogant in thinking that your OneTrueGospel is better than everyone elses while the theist has not even made that declaration. All the theist has done is declare that as it pertains to  subject "A", the Bible say this ________. 

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 03:25:50 PM »
I have seen the following quote and others like it quite often.

Quote
So show it.  Show how the bible supports you and only you.

I have then proceeded to jump in and go back and forth without addressing first, something of fundemental importance and that is that I MAKE NO SUCH BROAD CLAIMS!
Arguments based on this line of reasoning tend to be all over the place and rarely do the parties stick to the subject up for discussion and eventually the argument that started in or about 1 issue has moved to another issue. The argument initially put forth by the theist such as myself would start off by asserting that the Bible's message on a specific and particular subject is 'A'. We then show why we make that assertation only to be refuted with the Strawman of "why do you think you're right and everyone else is wrong" as opposed to scripture that stands opposed to what has been declared by the theist.

The issue made by the provacators seems to be one of a "Mr. or ms. Theist, you are arrogant in thinking that your OneTrueGospel is better than everyone elses while the theist has not even made that declaration. All the theist has done is declare that as it pertains to  subject "A", the Bible say this ________.

Well, I think you are talking about me(as one of the perpetrators.) The issue is that of a disucussion of angels dancing on a pin, or the Emperor's new clothes. When the person states "X" is the only interpretation, there is no other way to refute it as showing them is an interpretation is not objective. That their claim is no different, and is not exclusive.

It is just a microcosm of the problem of Gnostic theism in general. Every religion starts with special pleading. Every sect starts with the same.

All I am doing is exposing the fact of their special pleading.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 03:29:56 PM »
Yes there is a way to refute it. You refute it with the same scripture it originally had come from. Wanna play a game? Throw up a denomination and I'll show you why they're most likely wrong using scripture and logic in the Bible, which declares:

Jesus Christ is our ONE and ONLY Saviour and way to Salvation, and only by his grace, bestowed upon him by our faith and repentance towards his sacrifice, are we saved.

Offline Nick

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 03:31:58 PM »
Roman Catholics
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 03:34:47 PM »
Yes there is a way to refute it. You refute it with the same scripture it originally had come from. Wanna play a game? Throw up a denomination and I'll show you why they're most likely wrong using scripture and logic in the Bible, which declares:

Jesus Christ is our ONE and ONLY Saviour and way to Salvation, and only by his grace, bestowed upon him by our faith and repentance towards his sacrifice, are we saved.

Ares is the one and Only way to find peace through superior firepower. We need to make a sacrifice of a perfect hectome or suffer.

Special pleading, pure and simple.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 03:51:18 PM »
Well, I think you are talking about me(as one of the perpetrators.) The issue is that of a disucussion of angels dancing on a pin, or the Emperor's new clothes. When the person states "X" is the only interpretation, there is no other way to refute it as showing them is an interpretation is not objective. That their claim is no different, and is not exclusive.

It is just a microcosm of the problem of Gnostic theism in general. Every religion starts with special pleading. Every sect starts with the same.

All I am doing is exposing the fact of their special pleading.

Why can't the person be refuted by addressing the issue and using the evidence available to either confirm or deny the person's claim?

You mentioned angels, so I will use angels as an example as well. Let's say I was to make the claim that angels do not have wings according to the Bible. You could use the Bible to contradict me or in support of what I claimed, but instead it appears that the preferred method is to employ the tactic I mentioned in the OP of saying, "Why You Are Right and Everyone Else Wrong", and when I attempt to show why I make such claims from the scriptures my evidence (the scriptures) is dismissed and considered inadmisable when in fact the scriptures are the only source of evidence that could even be considered as admisable. 

Offline dloubet

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 04:21:18 PM »
Because something that can be interpreted as anything you want means nothing.

Denis Loubet

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 04:44:55 PM »
Because something that can be interpreted as anything you want means nothing.

Who's to say that this something (the vast majority of Bible writings), fits into this charactorization?
The argument can be made that such a position, (that the Bible writings can be interpreted as anything one wants) is flawed.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 04:54:12 PM »
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 05:35:13 PM »
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.

Placing misuse on par with proper use or implying that all use is equates to misuse just as much as it does to proper use is about like saying misquoting someone is the same as quoting them in the proper context.
It is beneficial to point out misquotes and misuses if one values getting the proper or most reasonably likely message intended by the originator communicated properly.   

Offline jetson

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 05:42:17 PM »
The Bible is subjective, pure and simple.  There is simply no way that anyone can make any claim otherwise.  The collection of writings that are labeled "The Bible", are about as random and arbitrary as one can possibly get when it comes to what was ultimately included.  Perhaps not to those who made those final decisions back in the day, but most certainly to the masses of people who disagree on everything from whether one can see God and live to tell about it, to whether Jesus actually killed a fig tree.

Truth OT, I know what you are trying to argue, but it fails because you have never been able to defend your interpretation to the satisfaction of everyone interested, and you never will.

And now we have a new member tryng to claim superior knowledge and understandng of a collection of writings that were never intended tp be included in a single book, much less collection.  It's pathetic, and intellectually dishonest to make such a claim.  Wo are e primal authors, and who were they speaking to?  When were they written?  What was the intent of the authors to those specific audiences?  You see, making up ones own answer to those questions without rigorous study and understanding of all of the details needed, is a terribly irresponsible thing to do.


Offline jetson

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 05:44:55 PM »
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.

Placing misuse on par with proper use or implying that all use is equates to misuse just as much as it does to proper use is about like saying misquoting someone is the same as quoting them in the proper context.
It is beneficial to point out misquotes and misuses if one values getting the proper or most reasonably likely message intended by the originator communicated properly.

Reasonably likely message intended....communicated properly...

How?  Especially for believers...how?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 05:50:46 PM »
Yes there is a way to refute it. You refute it with the same scripture it originally had come from. Wanna play a game? Throw up a denomination and I'll show you why they're most likely wrong using scripture and logic in the Bible, which declares:

Jesus Christ is our ONE and ONLY Saviour and way to Salvation, and only by his grace, bestowed upon him by our faith and repentance towards his sacrifice, are we saved.
the two words that do not belong together LOGIC and BIBLE
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 05:56:05 PM »
Well, I think you are talking about me(as one of the perpetrators.) The issue is that of a disucussion of angels dancing on a pin, or the Emperor's new clothes. When the person states "X" is the only interpretation, there is no other way to refute it as showing them is an interpretation is not objective. That their claim is no different, and is not exclusive.

It is just a microcosm of the problem of Gnostic theism in general. Every religion starts with special pleading. Every sect starts with the same.

All I am doing is exposing the fact of their special pleading.

Why can't the person be refuted by addressing the issue and using the evidence available to either confirm or deny the person's claim?

You mentioned angels, so I will use angels as an example as well. Let's say I was to make the claim that angels do not have wings according to the Bible. You could use the Bible to contradict me or in support of what I claimed, but instead it appears that the preferred method is to employ the tactic I mentioned in the OP of saying, "Why You Are Right and Everyone Else Wrong", and when I attempt to show why I make such claims from the scriptures my evidence (the scriptures) is dismissed and considered inadmisable when in fact the scriptures are the only source of evidence that could even be considered as admisable.
I get what you mean here, common mythology,paintings,stories and such has angels with wings while there is nothing in the Bible that can show this...we get it. We also understand that other thumpers Imply stuff based on these common mythologies......we DON'T care.....we hold NOTHING in the Bible to be true.....with exception of place names
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 07:55:17 PM »
It is supported empirically by people using the Bible writings to support whatever they want.  Uses that you would consider "misuse" are still a form of use.

Placing misuse on par with proper use or implying that all use is equates to misuse just as much as it does to proper use is about like saying misquoting someone is the same as quoting them in the proper context.
It is beneficial to point out misquotes and misuses if one values getting the proper or most reasonably likely message intended by the originator communicated properly.

The critical difference, TOT, is that misquoting is objective whereas misusing is subjective.

If someone says X, and has their quote altered, cut, or otherwise misrepresented to say Y, then that is different from the original quote.  As such, it is objectively a misquote.  This is not a matter of perspective.

If someone intends something to do X, and someone else uses it to do Y, then from the perspective of the first person it is a misuse; from the perspective of the second person, it is not.  The desired manner of usage by person #1 is not automatically better than that of person #2.  Not just because they were the originator, at any rate.  By your stated standard, a nuclear warhead that's been taken apart for nuclear fuel is being misused.  Do you stand by that standard?
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2011, 08:27:42 PM »
Strictly speaking, if the bible is the word of god as he communicates to mankind, and that god is a supernatural being able to be the god of the bible.. then the bible itself has already disproved his existence. A real god's words would contain perfect communication where 100% of god's meaning would be perfectly understood by 100% of mankind. 

Because it isn't - He isn't.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline jetson

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2011, 08:41:33 PM »
An excellent point Brakeman - and yes, I'm chasing you around the forum and replying to you today.  ;D

Anyway, this has been something that has been brought up in the past by others, and it merits consideration by believers.  I would expect that the standard model of God, being omniscient, omnipotent, and omni-benevolent, would dictate that anything it creates would be perfect.  The Bible, judging by the sheer number of translations and interpretations, is arguably the most imperfect book ever published.

I would expect the Bible to leave each reader in a state of awe, every single verse and paragraph, page and chapter - all the way to the end.  I would expect it to engage the reader in a way that no other book has ever been able to do, and to leave that reader with a sense of awesome, the likes of which cannot be gained in any other way.  And that's only if a book is the preferred method!

If there really was a god as depicted by the standard model (Christian god, of course), there would be no need for a book.  Each human would have the perfect word and understanding of God from birth, maybe even before birth!  Of course, that would ruin the model we have today, where all humans are sinners, and cannot possibly meet the standards of said god. 


Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 10:41:14 PM »
That Sad fucker couldn't even keep a snake out of his perfect garden,the flood,Job,hell.......the list of this perfect beings fuck-ups make me look like a genius
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2011, 02:47:59 AM »
You mentioned angels, so I will use angels as an example as well. Let's say I was to make the claim that angels do not have wings according to the Bible. You could use the Bible to contradict me or in support of what I claimed, but instead it appears that the preferred method is to employ the tactic I mentioned in the OP of saying, "Why You Are Right and Everyone Else Wrong", and when I attempt to show why I make such claims from the scriptures my evidence (the scriptures) is dismissed and considered inadmisable when in fact the scriptures are the only source of evidence that could even be considered as admisable.

Truth, I have some sympathy for you - not a lot  ;D, but some.  I think you are not quite understanding where we are coming from.

You are right to a point in that you need to use scriptures to make a particular point, and it may well be that your interpretation (using the parts you are referencing) does indeed follow A to B to C.  The "why you are right and everyone else wrong" aspect lies, I think, if we parallel it to critical examination of literature.

A person could look at a particular work of literature, a particular character within it, and come up with a quite valid argument as to what it "means".  Another student could use the same text and come to a different conclusion.  Both are right, insofar as their answers relate to them.  But the point is, it doesn't really matter to the next person.

Unless your purpose here is truly and completely one of just chatting, with zero concern for being taken seriously, then what you are saying DOES matter to us - to you, to me, to all of us.  We are, after all, talking about the things that will lead to eternal salvation or damnation - and its therefore absolutely vital that we find out exactly what is right.

It's because of that, that your "my answer" gambit doesn't work.  You DO have to demonstrate not only that your interpretation COULD be right, but also that your interpretation is the ONLY possible answer there could be.  (And, being honest, when you have admitted that your understandings have changed over the years would make it hard for you to do that).

What I'm saying is: ultimately, you are saying "I believe A, because X, Y and Z".  And we shrug, and say "so what?  THAT guys believes B, because X, Y and Z.  Why should we care what you believe?  Why should we consider YOU are right, and not that guy?". 

Like I said before, if you are truly and honestly not bothered in the slightest in convincing us that your opinion matters, then no - you DON'T have to demonstrate why everyone else is wrong.  But if you aren't prepared to do that, then hopefully you can understand why nobody will give a toss about any claims you may make about what your god apparently wants.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2011, 03:20:35 AM »
This guy explains why you have to worship Jesus in exactly the correct way. (at 3:00)



He's converted from Mormonism to Born Again Christian. By a subtle re-interpretation of Jesus' message, he now claims that he feels the real Jesus.

This is a similar transition similar to Roman Catholicism, to TrueChristianity.

Although the Catholics use the same religion as normal Christians, their sect is run by a pope, who is really Satan. So, I ask you, what hope have they got for salvation if the pope is Satan? Obviously, something is deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply deeply wrong with their religion.

Personally, I think that Christians should get back to basics, and:
- hate their parents
- give all their money to me, because I asked them
- go and love their enemies; that will keep them out of the way
- do everything in secret, inc. praying, so we don't have to listen to them, or their science theories
- cast out demons all day; that will keep them busy, while their enemy kills them
- after they get divorced, they should stay that way, so there are more women around

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be bleedn obvious.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2011, 10:08:41 AM »
TOT, have you or have you not declared that your interpretation that there is no heaven promised is the only right one and that everyone else is wrong?

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2011, 12:22:34 PM »
The Bible is subjective, pure and simple.  There is simply no way that anyone can make any claim otherwise.  The collection of writings that are labeled "The Bible", are about as random and arbitrary as one can possibly get when it comes to what was ultimately included.  Perhaps not to those who made those final decisions back in the day, but most certainly to the masses of people who disagree on everything from whether one can see God and live to tell about it, to whether Jesus actually killed a fig tree.

Truth OT, I know what you are trying to argue, but it fails because you have never been able to defend your interpretation to the satisfaction of everyone interested, and you never will.

And now we have a new member tryng to claim superior knowledge and understandng of a collection of writings that were never intended tp be included in a single book, much less collection.  It's pathetic, and intellectually dishonest to make such a claim.  Wo are e primal authors, and who were they speaking to?  When were they written?  What was the intent of the authors to those specific audiences?  You see, making up ones own answer to those questions without rigorous study and understanding of all of the details needed, is a terribly irresponsible thing to do.

Your initial sentence is a big exageration. Much of what was written can be charactorized as such, but just as much if not more does not have subjective charactoristics. Much of what was written was done so plainly and leaves no need for the imfamous "decoder ring". So charactorizing the entirety of the writings as subjective is dishonest.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2011, 12:38:24 PM »
What I'm saying is: ultimately, you are saying "I believe A, because X, Y and Z".  And we shrug, and say "so what?  THAT guys believes B, because X, Y and Z.  Why should we care what you believe?  Why should we consider YOU are right, and not that guy?". 

Like I said before, if you are truly and honestly not bothered in the slightest in convincing us that your opinion matters, then no - you DON'T have to demonstrate why everyone else is wrong.  But if you aren't prepared to do that, then hopefully you can understand why nobody will give a toss about any claims you may make about what your god apparently wants.

Maybe this discourse is not pointless after all!
Using the example you provided above let me just say that my goal is to have folks look at the data (x, y, and z), and after doing so as objectively as possible determine whether A, B, some other conclusion makes the most sense. That is really all I can ask for.
As for why it should matter, the reasons for it mattering will depend on the conclusion reached by looking at the data given. 

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2011, 01:05:32 PM »
The Bible is subjective, pure and simple.  There is simply no way that anyone can make any claim otherwise.  The collection of writings that are labeled "The Bible", are about as random and arbitrary as one can possibly get when it comes to what was ultimately included.  Perhaps not to those who made those final decisions back in the day, but most certainly to the masses of people who disagree on everything from whether one can see God and live to tell about it, to whether Jesus actually killed a fig tree.

Truth OT, I know what you are trying to argue, but it fails because you have never been able to defend your interpretation to the satisfaction of everyone interested, and you never will.

And now we have a new member tryng to claim superior knowledge and understandng of a collection of writings that were never intended tp be included in a single book, much less collection.  It's pathetic, and intellectually dishonest to make such a claim.  Wo are e primal authors, and who were they speaking to?  When were they written?  What was the intent of the authors to those specific audiences?  You see, making up ones own answer to those questions without rigorous study and understanding of all of the details needed, is a terribly irresponsible thing to do.

Your initial sentence is a big exageration. Much of what was written can be charactorized as such, but just as much if not more does not have subjective charactoristics. Much of what was written was done so plainly and leaves no need for the imfamous "decoder ring". So charactorizing the entirety of the writings as subjective is dishonest.

Not really, as soon as you allow the terms "metaphorically" and "mistranslation" out of the box....nothing is objective.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2011, 01:15:12 PM »
Not really, as soon as you allow the terms "metaphorically" and "mistranslation" out of the box....nothing is objective.

Again, only portions of what was written would fall under the catagory of being metaphorical. Much is literal, what of those parts?
As far as translation or mistranslation is involved, the instances where the idea of mistranslating is invoked involves only small fractions of the whole of scripture.
So again, using "broad brush" charactorizations that fit only in certain specific circumstances and making those charactorizations applicable to the entire work is dishonest.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2011, 01:33:16 PM »
Not really, as soon as you allow the terms "metaphorically" and "mistranslation" out of the box....nothing is objective.

Again, only portions of what was written would fall under the catagory of being metaphorical. Much is literal, what of those parts?
As far as translation or mistranslation is involved, the instances where the idea of mistranslating is invoked involves only small fractions of the whole of scripture.
So again, using "broad brush" charactorizations that fit only in certain specific circumstances and making those charactorizations applicable to the entire work is dishonest.

You are not getting it. When any...any significant portion of a work can be said to be mistranslated or metaphorical, then what parts are metaphorical or mistranslated or which ones are literal are now up for debate. This means there is no objective standard. It is that basic. Take Noah's Ark story...some sects argue literal, so sect argue figurative. The Entire book of Genesis is the same. There are even some estoteric branches of Catholicism the argue the gospels themselves are metaphorical.

This isn't a dishonest charcterization, these are real and actual disagreement going on as we speak. If there was an objective standard, a test, this wouldn't be the case.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Benny

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2011, 02:03:55 PM »
That Sad fucker couldn't even keep a snake out of his perfect garden,the flood,Job,hell.......the list of this perfect beings fuck-ups make me look like a genius
Did TOT respond to this yet?  If not, I'd LOVE to see him try.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2011, 03:02:32 PM »
Much is literal, what of those parts?
Can you explain, where any parts of the bible are literal please, thank you.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Show Me Why You Are Right and Everyone Else is Wrong
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2011, 03:23:29 PM »
Much is literal, what of those parts?
Can you explain, where any parts of the bible are literal please, thank you.

Why would something literal need to be explaned? What is it you seek from me as proof of my declaration that only parts of the writings are figurative? Should I quote an entire narrative? Should I be a smart ass and cut and paste the text that says Jesus wept? There are numerous texts that speak literally and there are other texts that use symbolism, I fail to see how that idea can be argued against.