Author Topic: Why is the wages of sin is death?  (Read 3356 times)

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2011, 11:33:30 AM »
Hypocrisy?  How does one become overzealous by being unconvinced? Can one become an overzealous non-stamp collector?

That's a bad analogy. Any form of ideology, or lack thereof, can be turned zealous. Can there be a zealous Nihilist?

No, there cannot be an over zealous nihilist , just a nihilist.  There cannot be an over-zealous atheist, just a stubborn atheist. Zeal requires a positive cause. You can't have zeal in not doing something.

Anyway ..

So do you have a relationship with god, or are you just one of his devout fans?
 
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Offline Turbo SS

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2011, 01:43:10 PM »
Whats a FNORD?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2011, 01:50:58 PM »
Whats a FNORD?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord

a word from one of the most tedious, but occasionally funny books, The Illuminatus Trillogy. 

My husband thought there should be HTML script for it [fnord] [/fnord] for big conspiracies to use.
 ;D
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2011, 01:52:22 PM »
question for you Turbo:  does it take more or less effort to type "fnord" into google than it does to make your last post? 
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2011, 02:03:28 PM »
Whats a FNORD?

What you can see the Fnord?!!!!!!
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline stuffin

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2011, 02:06:02 PM »
Fnord, DAMN!

I've learned so much since I came here.

Fnord is the color only blind people can see.

I went and looked it up......
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Offline Turbo SS

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2011, 02:15:48 PM »
question for you Turbo:  does it take more or less effort to type "fnord" into google than it does to make your last post?

I didnt realize it was searchable.  I thought it was an acronym from this site only.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2011, 02:58:29 PM »
question for you Turbo:  does it take more or less effort to type "fnord" into google than it does to make your last post?

I didnt realize it was searchable.  I thought it was an acronym from this site only.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/old-school-illuminati-symbolism-mariah-carey-and-whitney-houston-1999-video/

Notice the fact the the lines on the floor come to a point, this isn't just decoration this is an indication of a world wide occult conspiracy!!!! OMG...call the police...no...don't... they are in on it!!!!
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2011, 02:51:38 AM »
Wow, three pages now and Tweet STILL hasn't supplied one, single, verifiable fact. Nothing. Zip. Zilch. Nada. He just goes on and on about... absolutely nothing... and then wonders why we get cranky...
It's YOUR god, it's YOUR rules, YOU go to hell.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #67 on: September 15, 2011, 07:14:17 AM »
and then wonders why we get cranky...

That's a pun right? 
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2011, 02:29:18 AM »
and then wonders why we get cranky...

That's a pun right? 

Eh? I'm either plain stupid or just too tired, but I don't see the pun there. Definitely not intended. Please to point it out for me?  :o
It's YOUR god, it's YOUR rules, YOU go to hell.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

"Noah's ark is a problem. We'll have to call it early quantum state phenomenon, only way to fit 5000 species of mammal in the same boat."
- River Tam

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2011, 04:03:31 PM »
because tweety is a crank.

It was a bit of a stretch...
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2011, 05:04:37 PM »
Yes that WAS a stretch
It's YOUR god, it's YOUR rules, YOU go to hell.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...

"Noah's ark is a problem. We'll have to call it early quantum state phenomenon, only way to fit 5000 species of mammal in the same boat."
- River Tam

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2011, 05:10:23 PM »
^^^ that would be reply #42 right here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20091.msg443178.html#msg443178

I'll waiti for your reply to my playground analogy Tweeterfist.

Pleth left out the best part of the playground analogy--the part where the psycho dad has his animatronic stuffed talking dragon, Puff pop up out of the slide.  Puff tells the kids that their daddy didn't mean it about the pole, and that really they would get milk and cookies if they touched it.

They touch it and a window opens and they do get to enjoy milk and cookies. Puff told the truth! They are tidying up the picnic when daddy appears and demands to know what they are doing. The kids honestly and innocently explain what the dragon Puff said and what happened after. Then he gives them the big hobnailed boot into the mean streets.

The kids don't disobey because they are natural born baaaaad sinners. They have someone telling them a different story, someone obviously put there by daddy, 'cause how else would Puff be inside the slide daddy built?

That is the truly sick part of the story. God knew what the snake would do and put the snake there to do it. Adam and Eve had free will to listen to the snake instead of god, and god could not prevent that. Or is it that snakes also have free will and god could not control it either? But god had to do everything in that messed-up screwy way, because....just because. Seems to me the only person in this scenario without free will is god. Strange.[1]
 1. Reminds me of conservatives who blame all social problems on the poorest and least powerful, while granting the folks at the top the most benefits, breaks and protections! It was not the wealthy investment firms that screwed up the economy, it was all those poor people who forced realtors to sell them homes they could not afford...

We should have compassion for the poor millionaire stockbrokers (gods) who lost their third homes, not the evicted families (Adam and Eve) living in their cars through their own free will.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline plethora

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2011, 06:45:21 PM »
^^^ Nice one!  ;)

... still waiting (probably in vain at this point) for tweet to respond to this analogy ...
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2011, 09:24:46 PM »
Here's a question the wonder more about.

Why did God create man with the intention of having man exist in a sinful world?

He, being God and all had to have intended it, but WHY?

Offline jetson

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2011, 09:25:39 PM »
I'm going with "all gods are imaginary".  Top that.

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #75 on: September 17, 2011, 12:02:55 AM »
Here's a question the wonder more about.

Why did God create man with the intention of having man exist in a sinful world?

He, being God and all had to have intended it, but WHY?

Warning: This is long. But SUPER IMPORTANT!

Okay, not really. But it was fun to write. And it should be a quick read.
---------------

First, I'm actually impressed you picked up on this and have the stones to ask yourself the question. A lot of Christians just hand-wave it away and/or simply don't want to think about it. So points for you!

There's really only a few answers if you actually believe the story. "Not understanding his ways" or "It's all part of a mysterious PLAN!" is a cop out, and I think anybody who's honest and put some thought in about it knows that deep down. 'Cos that would be one needlessly complicated and convoluted "plan" for an all-wise GOD to carry out.

Kinda counter productive when you set to RE-INVENTING all of existence in order to carry out a punishment on two completely innocent and mentally handicapped prototypes.

I will expand on this. One of the few potential answers that allows the story to make actual sense: Chiggidy-check it.

A.)The god is malicious and sadistic, or in the best case, apathetic and bored. He did it to watch it happen. Grand Theft Auto is a really boring game if you just drive around, obeying the traffic signals and never using a weapon or playing a mission because you want to play nice nice with cartoon characters.

Whereas going batshit crazy and powersliding around corners at 100 mph and taking out a gaggle of civillians and prostitutes and mailboxes and then ramming a oil truck and blowing yourself out into the ocean is far more action-packed.

Of course the person playing the game isn't really a mass murderer, or inclined to drive a Lamborghini through a pack of people... But people find it entertaining because it ultimately doesn't matter to you. It's a clump of pixels that only exists because you turned the game on, and you can always just hit "Load game" if you want and carry on like it never happened. 

Yahweh, umm, didn't do that though. Hit "Load Game" I mean. Could have snapped his big sausagey fingers and undid a snake's meddling with his "greatest most beloved creation" (personally I think Binary Star systems are just as impressive but that's just me)...

Simply undoing it, or NOT PUTTING A WORLD DAMNING TREE IN THE GARDEN AT ALL (and why a WHOLE TREE full of multiple fruits when there were only two people to eat it??? What if a knowledge fruit fell on the ground and a squirrel ate it?), well, not putting a landmine in the garden that would make sense to ME.

Like "hey, I put a lot of work into these two gloriously stupid Aryan prototypes, and a talking snake just really pissed me off, because these two didn't even know it was NOT OKAY TO DISOBEY ME (seeing as they had no knowledge of "right" and "wrong)...  That s**t ain't gonna fly. Snake, yer OUT OF HERE. Now, let's try this again. <RESET>"

But no, Yahweh just goes nanners and dramatically displays the single greatest over reaction in the history of popular fiction. Kinda like punching a retarded kitten in the face forever because it chewed on your shoes when you told it not too, in full knowledge that your roomate is the one who soaked your Nikes in Catnip.

<<If I can go on a brief tangent here, what did snakes do before they had to "crawl on their bellies"? I like to think they coiled up into springs and hopped around like in Q-bert! Though that snake is STILL disobeying Yahweh's divine punishment... 'Cause, you know, they don't eat dirt. Like, ever. Rebellious ass critters ain't they?

This is even more messed up because it was actually the Debil in Disguise in the FORM of a snake, so it was pretty much completely mis-directed anger and one clumsy ass smiting. Did Yahweh not know it was really his arch-nemisis??? Or not care that it was REALLY not a snake?

What if Belzebub took the form of a Ferret? We'd have little fur worms wriggling around, which I think we could all agree would be infinitely cuter, though still just as ludicrous of an example of "eternal wisdom".>>>

But I digest. So anyway, there's this giant collasal sabotage of Yahweh's most specialist creation because a talking snake who was REALLY a big red goat man from the 5th dimension totally took a s**t in Yahweh's cereal. And he just lets it slide.

Really? He does nothing about it but play the hand he's been dealt? And he's going to play all dumb and say "Hey, where ARE you guyyys?" when he comes back to the garden from Jersey or wherever he was hanging out? WTF?

Really. He just smites the s**t out of the ENTIRE PLANET that he was allegedly SO meticulous in creating, and suddenly "poofs' agony during childbirth into every living thing, creates death, creates buttholes that magically appear in almost every living thing, creates this insanely complex digestive system (and makes the waste come out of the same places needed for REPRODUCTION OH FUCKING YUCK CITY), makes MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of delightful horrors like 1,000 types of cancer, bones that break, hunger, want, Fear, anger, jealousy, ingrown toe-nails, baldness, cavities, etc. etc. etc. X A BILLION...

HOW MANY WAYS DO WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO SUFFER before the silly space monster says "Okay, that's enough... THAT'LL learn those disobedient retards!"

I mean, dude put a metric ASS TON of thought and work into completely changing and RE-CREATING all of "Creation" in order to make sure it suffers gloriously in SO MANY WAYS...

No, but that wasn't yahweh. That was the DEBIL.

Really? I mean, he crippled an entire species of animal (snakes) because it was the SHAPE of Dr. Doom's disguise... But he lets his rebellious ex-angel continue to f**k with humanity for forever? That's a little like finding out your kids were molested by the neighbor, and then just saying "f**k it, they're tainted now. Have your way with them all you want lulz."
 
Bottom line: The character of Yahweh ALLOWS it all to go down. According to the to believers, he's STILL letting his kids get sodomized by the neighbor 6,000 years later.

Now THAT is a grudge! lol.

So again, no "load game" for Yahweh. Nope. He just keeps playing the game allowing babies to be born with no eyelids or crushing a hiker's legs with a rock so he has to amputate it with a penknife or sending bears to maul 42 kids because they called a preacher "bald".

Only possible explanation is that the character's motivation boils down to thinking it's all much more exciting, and nobody is in a position to tell him he's a sadistic fucktard.

But then again, maybe he simply resented his creation's wide-eyed, slack-jawed, half-retarded ignorance... I know I probably would. They basically just wandered around a garden grinning at each other like idiots and saying things like "Oh this pineapple is delicious. Hey look it's a purple flower! Ooh there's a pink one!"

How long could you watch the same two people wander around in circles gaping at everything before you became insanely bored?


That's one idear that makes sense of things. The character simply doesn't care about being rational or just or loving; it just wants to see some action.

A few more possiblities:

B.)Yahweh is actually a drooling idiot. This makes sense as well, considering the entire old testament consists of him fucking up whatever he's doing over and over and then going and sloppily trying to correct it's mistakes. Usually, this is done by inflicting unspeakable suffering on his kids. Little fuckers had it coming though. Especially those kids with the bears.

C.)Yahweh is actually the "devil", the incarnation of Evil and the Prince of Lies, and his magical and ancient murderbook is all a giant and masterfully effective deception. What better way to spread some Evuhl around than by making the rubes on Earth think they're actually ENLIGHTENED and doing GOOD by stoning faggots to death?

I mean, if you follow that particular bunny trail, it's kinda startling how perfectly the pieces all fit together lol. Makes more sense than virtually ANY other explanation, except the last one.

Really, it's an INGENIOUS plan if you really think about it. The devil murders Yahweh (or Yahweh has a "non-interference" policy or something), and starts wearing Yahweh's face around like Hannibal Lector, drafts a giant manuscript of contradictory themes and instructions and horror stories painted as "Holy", makes it confusing as hell so that it needs to be EXPLAINED and ANALYZED and STUDIED to make any kind of sense of it (allowing every other believer to interpret it a completely different way), sewing allllll these religious atrocities and REALLY BAD IDEAS into humanity's beliefs and behavior and laughing his big red ass off the whole time, while nobody on Earth knows any better and keeps professing they LOVE him under threat of eternal suffering!

<Giggles> "Oh yeah. Rape the s**t out of those slaves. You're totally justified. Blessings unto you!"

... Realizes that if society keeps evolving, NOBODY is going to buy this s**t anymore, so sends some demon dressed like a hippie down to spread messages of super huggy warm feelings and then BRUTALLY MURDERS it in front of it's fans to assure 2,000 years of morbid ass clinging and a fascination with torture..

Seriously. Give it some thought. It just gets creepier and more ominous the more you look at the murderbook through a filter of deception.

And I bet the incarnation of evil and Prince of lies would think it's HILLARIOUS when the believers start killing each other in his name.


D.)Another option is, of course, that it's 2,000 pages of superstitious bullshit created by socially powerful priests and a wacky Roman Emperor in order to keep the illiterate peasantry in-line and leech the s**t out of the nobilities coffers while instilling a Fear of the state that extends EVEN BEYOND DEATH.

The storytellers were 2,000 years away from Steven Spielburg, completely ignorant in virtually all things science, and thought you could cure leporasy by rubbing yourself down with bird's blood. Hence why their goofy ass opus contradicts itself every other page and includes ALLLLLL this nasty and nonsensical bullshit.

Straight-up, they were not Homer, they were not Keroauc. Never taken a creative writing class or studied up on plot consistency. Plus the overwhelming majority of their target audience were completely uneducated and illiterate goatherders and laborers... DESPERATE for someone to tell them something entertaining, to validate their lives, and to tell them "Hey, life sucks for you fucking mongrels... I know eating doormouse and pigeons and shitting in the bushes and dying by the age of 35 from Typhoid or Malaria or an infected skin knee sucks some massive talking donkey dick, but if you listen to us, give us your money and do what we say, and make sure to tell us about all the naughty things you do, it totally won't suck after you FUCKING DIE!!!"
 
"Oh, and by the way guys, it's totally okay to own other humans and beat the s**t out of them and stone your wife if she cheats on you or your kids if they give you a hard time and oh yeah gay dudes is gross so you can throw big fuckin' rocks at 'em all day long and hey if you invade another country feel free to f**k all their kids if you win."

I dunno. That's the one *I* lean towards. Makes sense to me. If I was some filthy, body-aching, sexually repressed small-dicked goatherder 1,600 years ago, I'd probably eat that s**t up with a spoon.

 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 12:48:13 AM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #76 on: September 17, 2011, 10:02:38 AM »
Here's a question the wonder more about.

Why did God create man with the intention of having man exist in a sinful world?

He, being God and all had to have intended it, but WHY?

I ask the above because if God indeed has Goglike qualities then He would have forseen the "fall" and would have thus have had to create man with the intent to have man fall. What sticks out to me in the narrative of creation was that after every act the writer deemed it necessary to remark that God felt everything was good that He had just created as if the writer was trying to emphasize that the world God made was in fact wholly good and perfect. If further seems God was trying not to be culpable for introducing an act of sin into His new creation, but did intend to have it introduced, so He made a law. Notice that that law did not make the tree evil, but rather, it created the possibility of sin which made eating the fruit of a tree that (and here's the key word) FORBIDDEN wrong thus making the one who eats from the tree guilty of the sin of disobedience.
So to make a long story short, it for all intents and purposes looks as if God set the stage for a "sin drama" to play out inthe world He had created. The question is of course then, WHY. Why would God desire to set such a stage? Was there a point to it all or is He just the possessor of a sadistic sense of humor? If not, then did He have a greater purpose for the creation? If so, for who's purposes did He do this? Were there previously created parties that He may have intended to be the audience for this drama? 
Either way one looks at it it would appear that mankind is a pawn in a greater plan God had in mind.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #77 on: September 17, 2011, 10:22:55 AM »
Either way one looks at it it would appear that mankind is a pawn in a greater plan God had in mind.

Truth OT, what is your evidence for this? Sounds like you're just voicing your SPAG-y desires.

Did you even read Raymond's post?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #78 on: September 17, 2011, 10:30:56 AM »
Either way one looks at it it would appear that mankind is a pawn in a greater plan God had in mind.

Truth OT, what is your evidence for this? Sounds like you're just voicing your SPAG-y desires.

Did you even read Raymond's post?

Why ask for something tht cannot possibly be provided. What I wrote, just like what was written by Ray was representative of our individual opinions that we formed based on our reading of the creation narrative. There is in fact some overlap as the issue of God being sadistic is included in both our posts.

---------
It seems that at times double standards exist when theists like myself voice our opinions as compared to when more popular and acceptable (specific to a generally atheistic forum) opinions are voiced. There is room for desenting views.................

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #79 on: September 17, 2011, 10:46:26 AM »
Why ask for something tht cannot possibly be provided.

At least you admit that part (my bolding).

Quote
What I wrote, just like what was written by Ray was representative of our individual opinions that we formed based on our reading of the creation narrative. There is in fact some overlap as the issue of God being sadistic is included in both our posts.

---------
It seems that at times double standards exist when theists like myself voice our opinions as compared to when more popular and acceptable (specific to a generally atheistic forum) opinions are voiced. There is room for desenting views.................

My problem with your argument is that you ask a question, then you make a logical leap:


Here's a question the wonder more about.

Why did God create man with the intention of having man exist in a sinful world?

He, being God and all had to have intended it, but WHY?


Either way one looks at it it would appear that mankind is a pawn in a greater plan God had in mind.


Ray at least attempts to explain his reasoning. You jump to the conclusion (with only Biblical premises in your argument) that God has a greater plan that involves mankind. I'm going to ask you again: why? Please provide me with an answer without taking things so personally and claiming unfairness. I think it's fair that I want an explanation. 

EDIT: There are those of us who feel like you would need evidence to prove that the Bible is even true, so can you please show me some real evidence instead of quoting the Bible, if that is what you might do? Otherwise, your argument would end up being circular.

EDIT: Also, although you claim that evidence cannot be provided, this is what I will ask for until you acknowledge that we cannot go any further with your argument at all.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 11:10:53 AM by curiousgirl »
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #80 on: September 17, 2011, 10:57:21 AM »
Here's a question the wonder more about.

Why did God create man with the intention of having man exist in a sinful world?

He, being God and all had to have intended it, but WHY?

I ask the above because if God indeed has Goglike qualities then He would have forseen the "fall" and would have thus have had to create man with the intent to have man fall. What sticks out to me in the narrative of creation was that after every act the writer deemed it necessary to remark that God felt everything was good that He had just created as if the writer was trying to emphasize that the world God made was in fact wholly good and perfect. If further seems God was trying not to be culpable for introducing an act of sin into His new creation, but did intend to have it introduced, so He made a law. Notice that that law did not make the tree evil, but rather, it created the possibility of sin which made eating the fruit of a tree that (and here's the key word) FORBIDDEN wrong thus making the one who eats from the tree guilty of the sin of disobedience.
So to make a long story short, it for all intents and purposes looks as if God set the stage for a "sin drama" to play out inthe world He had created. The question is of course then, WHY. Why would God desire to set such a stage? Was there a point to it all or is He just the possessor of a sadistic sense of humor? If not, then did He have a greater purpose for the creation? If so, for who's purposes did He do this? Were there previously created parties that He may have intended to be the audience for this drama? 
Either way one looks at it it would appear that mankind is a pawn in a greater plan God had in mind.

I covered this last night in my rum-soaked rant above. Did you not read it? Were my answers not compelling? I think I covered the four most reasonable excuses/explanations. :-\

It's a little insulting that you didn't bother to address what I wrote, to be honest. I took the time to answer this very silly question, after all. The least you could do is acknowledge it. Instead you just blow right past it and ask the same question again?

What's up with that?   :(

Gotta say, I kinda feel bad for Christians that have to struggle with this stuff. I'd imagine it's maddening trying to make sense of a story that's so chock full of plot holes that it could double as a fishing net. You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to come up with an answer you can live with.

And you have to do it over and over and over and over again with virtually every story in the book. You have to create hundreds if not thousands of rationalizations and excuses because frankly, you're a well educated 21st century human being trying to make sense of 5,000 year old desert fables and make it fit into what you know about how the world actually operates in the year 2011.

Come on man. Let's get really real here, okay? You know why Yahweh mandated that snakes "Eat dirt" for forever?

Because ancient man saw snakes flick out their tounges to smell stuff, and assumed they were eating dirt. It's that simple. The story was written by some very ignorant people. 

There was no curse. It never happened. No "fall". It's impossible, especially in the very silly and nonsensical way it's told. A&E COULD NOT "FALL" BECAUSE THEY HAD NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT DISOBEDIENCE WAS BAD. Classic catch-22. *I* can figure it out. Why can't a god?

Yahweh's reaction to the situation is the very definition of "unjust" and certainly not "merciful" or "loving". And I think you know it.

Why did humanity catch the brunt of Yahweh's hillarious over-reaction, when Satan-snake was the only one on the scene who actually possesed the capacity to understand the consequences of A&E's actions, and yet Satan-snake gets a free pass because Yahweh decides to smite the s**t out of a species of animal instead. Satan gets away scott-free in this story, if you notice.

It's embarassingly obvious that it's just a poorly thought out story that was written to explain to bronze agers why bad s**t happens to good people and to demonstrate Yahweh's terrifying and sloppy wrath. 

NOTHING about the story makes sense.

Why create an entire planet if you originally intended to keep mankind penned up in a comparitively tiny little garden?

Why didn't Satan eat the magical godfruit from the Tree of Life instead of wasting time with A&E?

Why would a god go around putting landmines in his kids' playground?

Why a whole tree full of fruit if there's only two people to eat it?

When Yahweh "comes back" to the garden from wherever, why does he ask where A&E are hiding? Why does he ask "Why are you wearing clothes"? This IS a god we're talking about, right? Are you we intended to believe Yahweh simply doesn't know?

Two people started humanity? So we're all inbred? Nice. Fact is, inbreeding wasn't really understood when the bible was written. Certainly not genetics. It didn't occur to the writers that having all humanity descend from two people was virtually a biological impossibility.

And I can't begin to understand how people could believe that a god went through the whole song & dance of "creation" only to completely abandon and then modify it's existing blueprints for literally EVERY LIVING THING to make room for a billion forms of suffering over such a simple mistake by what were essentially two defective prototypes.

Please. Go back and read what I wrote. I'm sorry it's rambling, blame the rum, but my points are rock solid. Otherwise I'll have to assume your question is disingenious and you really don't care about getting an answer.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 11:09:07 AM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline jetson

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #81 on: September 17, 2011, 11:03:43 AM »
Ray did what Ray does best.  He used his brain to lay waste to what has gripped humankind for almost its entire existence, and left only that which we know to be true.  There is no god.  There has never been a god, there will never be a god.

Thanks Ray.

ToT - you will always be free to form and hold any opinion that makes you happy, and even share that with others, as if it were true, or valid - just like Ray.  And for the time being, you may even be in the majority (though I personally doubt there are more believers than non-believers).  But what is left after considering both sides of god versus no god, is the very obvious fact that there are no gods, there never have been, and never will be.  They are imaginary, made up entities that serve to divide humans in ways that are as dangerous as they are delusional.  Where is any god, at any point in time, and where is any god now?  Show us god, and its game over.  Talk about god using ignorant writings and you will always lose the argument.


Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #82 on: September 17, 2011, 11:10:00 AM »
Ray did what Ray does best.  He used his brain to lay waste to what has gripped humankind for almost its entire existence, and left only that which we know to be true.  There is no god.  There has never been a god, there will never be a god.

Thanks Ray.

Much love Dr. J.  ;)

<Brofist>

Edit: Maybe I should give TOT the benefit of the doubt; that he DID read my post (even though it was a little rude to just blow over it and not address anything I said) or has otherwise considered the likely explanations/excuses, and the the idea that Yahweh is not in fact just or loving and is actually rather sadistic and malicious, is the answer he finds most likely and gravitates towards...

Just... I dunno. That would scare the piss outta me lol. If I actually believed that there was an all-powerful deity up there that was straight-up out for blood and misery???

Woof. That's one meaty thumb to live under, I do declare. What a drag. Give me a Viking god any day. Or a Roman one. At least those guys didn't have a galaxy-sized stick up their celestial ass.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 11:23:29 AM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #83 on: September 17, 2011, 11:21:41 AM »
Ray at least attempts to explain his reasoning. You jump to the conclusion (with only Biblical premises in your argument) that God has a greater plan that involves mankind. I'm going to ask you again: why? Please provide me with an answer without taking things so personally and claiming unfairness. I think it's fair that I want an explanation.

Perhaps it's my fault for using the word greater as opposed to a word like 'different' or 'another' or even 'bigger' as the word 'greater', may lend to so religious connotations. No such idea was intended.
I thought the reasoning behind such an idea was apparent. If we look at the creation account as factual, then whatever God's reasoning behind it was, man's role must be that of a pawn. I know it's a big generalization, but is there anything in the narrative that would be used to refute such as conclusion?
Again, the CONTENT of biblical creation account is what the focus of this discussion, not the FACTUALITY OF IT. I drew my conclusion based on an examination of the context of the narrative, no more, no less. Since it is that narrative up for discussion, what purpose could "evidence" beyond the contents of that narrative serve for this discussion?

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #84 on: September 17, 2011, 11:33:35 AM »
I dunno man. If I were you and believed in magic/supernatural stuff/dragons/unicorns/Loch Ness Monsters/Rib ladies/Dust men/talking animals, I think I'd gravitate towards my answer C.) - that the bible was actually written by an incarnation of evil/devil, and you've been magnificiently duped.
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Offline Truth OT

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Alright, new topic........
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2011, 11:34:35 AM »
ToT - you will always be free to form and hold any opinion that makes you happy, and even share that with others, as if it were true, or valid - just like Ray.  And for the time being, you may even be in the majority (though I personally doubt there are more believers than non-believers).  But what is left after considering both sides of god versus no god, is the very obvious fact that there are no gods, there never have been, and never will be.   They are imaginary, made up entities that serve to divide humans in ways that are as dangerous as they are delusional.  Where is any god, at any point in time, and where is any god now?  Show us god, and its game over.  Talk about god using ignorant writings and you will always lose the argument.

The "fact" that no gods exists is a bit less than obvious. Such an idea is equivalent to the idea that gods definately exist. Neither can be back objectively by facts and observation. Since it cannot be proven that gods do in fact exist, then the process of identifying these unproven entities takes a HUGE leap of faith that admittedly, believers such as myself have been making. 

Offline jetson

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2011, 11:34:49 AM »
ToT - we largely do NOT know the authors of scripture.  Yet you discuss it as though the writings are important - why? 

On the other hand, we DO know the author of Harry Potter.  We can debate those books until the cows come home, but all we really need to do is ask the author.  She will tell us EXACTLY what was meant, in no uncertain terms, and with no reason at all for debate.

You cling to scripture as though it is important to have a debate, but it is not important at all.  What is important is to establish a reasonable understanding of the world we live in, by digging deeper, and searching harder for answers, using the scientific method, our best know method for eliminating that which makes less sense, and holding those best explanations until something even better comes along.

Clinging to scripture is an exercise in futility, just like clinging to Harry Potter would be if people started believing there really is a wizard world.  I know that in scripture, some people believe that religious thought is the best way to help people understand the world.  But that is simply wrong.  Religious thought is always trumped by the scientific method.  Always.