Author Topic: Why is the wages of sin is death?  (Read 3414 times)

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Offline albeto

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Why is the wages of sin is death?
« on: September 13, 2011, 10:03:57 AM »
Why not, "the wages of sin is 3 hours hard labor" or "40 lashes with a wet noodle" or "Thus sayeth God, 'I am very disappointed in you. I am the LORD.'"?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 10:14:25 AM »
because people want a reason for "death" and they made it up  ;D

We have a god that could make anything the wages of sin, but evidently wants it to be death.  We also have a god that made up the rules for what "sin" was and then proceeded to take thousands of years to figure out how to get out of that rule, trying out mass murder by flooding, a little tower destruction, magic boxes and then finally sending part of himself to be killed for himself in a really nasty manner.
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Offline fungusdrool

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 10:15:48 AM »
Death is a good motivator.

Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 10:57:54 AM »
Since the Fall, death has been necessary both in this world and as a final punishment in the next (You will not be tortured forever, that's a pagan Catholic concept that was worked into Christianity) because heaven is something to be earned. We gave up our pure bodies by initially sinning so to all those who are aware, God holds them accountable to either strive to return and redeem ourselves to his original intent for us or accept our corrupted form and, by that, not accept heaven and what we once had. You pretty much reject it so why would you be given it?

Offline plethora

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2011, 11:19:06 AM »
Disclaimer: I don't believe that any gods exist. I am simply entertaining these fairy tale beliefs here for a moment ...

Since the Fall, death has been necessary both in this world and as a final punishment in the next


God is supposed to be omniscient. In other words, he knew in advance before creating Adam and Eve that they would sin and he created them the way they are anyway. So they could never be any other outcome could there be? No exactly a 'choice' now was it?

Secondly, god told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If they had no knowledge of good any evil, how could they know that disobeying god was wrong?

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(You will not be tortured forever, that's a pagan Catholic concept that was worked into Christianity) because heaven is something to be earned.

Oh, I see. We have a OneTrueChristianTM here ladies and gentlemen. The other 38000 denominations are wrong of course... not to mention every other religion in the world and those of us who don't have a religion.

Of course, the other 38000 denominations also claim to be TrueChristiansTM ... but hey, I'll just take Tweeterfist word for it shall I? [/sarcasm]

Did Angels have to earn the right to go to heaven? Just sayin' it seems god is capable of creating beings that don't need to earn a damn thing to be in heaven.

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We gave up our pure bodies by initially sinning so to all those who are aware, God holds them accountable to either strive to return and redeem ourselves to his original intent for us or accept our corrupted form and, by that, not accept heaven and what we once had. You pretty much reject it so why would you be given it?

Whoa whoa ... when the hell did I personally ever chose this scenario?

If Adam and Eve fucked up god's plan, why the hell should eeeeverybody be held accountable for that? I wasn't even born when this happened, according to your fairy tale story book.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2011, 11:37:05 AM »
Disclaimer: I don't believe that any gods exist. I am simply entertaining these fairy tale beliefs here for a moment ...

Since the Fall, death has been necessary both in this world and as a final punishment in the next


God is supposed to be omniscient. In other words, he knew in advance before creating Adam and Eve that they would sin and he created them the way they are anyway. So they could never be any other outcome could there be? No exactly a 'choice' now was it?
Free will must permit the choice to oppose what is in place. No there never could be another outcome because of this and God understood that however it still was our choice to use our free will in such a manner. How was it not? God was left to either create a bunch of robots or allow this inevitable possibility of us rejecting him. Can't have it both ways.

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Secondly, god told them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If they had no knowledge of good any evil, how could they know that disobeying god was wrong?
Because they were told they would die if they did so. That should be a pretty good motivator already, unless you fancy sticking forks into toasters.

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(You will not be tortured forever, that's a pagan Catholic concept that was worked into Christianity) because heaven is something to be earned.

Oh, I see. We have a OneTrueChristianTM here ladies and gentlemen. The other 38000 denominations are wrong of course... not to mention every other religion in the world and those of us who don't have a religion.
Way to add on to what I said. Hey if you wanna interpret Romeo and Juliet as two cowboys who loved sponge baths then be my guest. Just because you wanna take on that interpretation doesn't make you right though does it?

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Of course, the other 38000 denominations also claim to be TrueChristiansTM ... but hey, I'll just take Tweeterfist word for it shall I? [/sarcasm]
Why not do some research yourself? Isn't it us silly religious that simply listen to what we're told?

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Did Angels have to earn the right to go to heaven? Just sayin' it seems god is capable of creating beings that don't need to earn a damn thing to be in heaven.
Well that comment made no sense. Eden pretty much was our heaven until we sinned. When angels sinned, they don't stay in heaven.

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We gave up our pure bodies by initially sinning so to all those who are aware, God holds them accountable to either strive to return and redeem ourselves to his original intent for us or accept our corrupted form and, by that, not accept heaven and what we once had. You pretty much reject it so why would you be given it?

Whoa whoa ... when the hell did I personally ever chose this scenario?

If Adam and Eve fucked up god's plan, why the hell should eeeeverybody be held accountable for that? I wasn't even born when this happened, according to your fairy tale story book.
Okay so God is going to have us each start in bliss, without parents who inevitably also sinned, and continue such a cycle that pretty much results in nothing? I think you're missing the logic. Whether or not you think it's illogical to begin with doesn't matter. A hypothetical doesn't have to be looked at illogically.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2011, 11:52:56 AM »
Death is a thing no of us can avoid, we will face death. Why not use death to control people, and prophet profit from it?
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Offline changeling

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2011, 11:58:10 AM »
Since the Fall, death has been necessary both in this world and as a final punishment in the next (You will not be tortured forever, that's a pagan Catholic concept that was worked into Christianity) because heaven is something to be earned. We gave up our pure bodies by initially sinning so to all those who are aware, God holds them accountable to either strive to return and redeem ourselves to his original intent for us or accept our corrupted form and, by that, not accept heaven and what we once had. You pretty much reject it so why would you be given it?
Adam and Eve sinned so their final punishment was eveybody had to die.
Why did god punish the little rabbits and birdies too? They had nothing to do with the original sin.

God's idea of justice sucks. Little Joey broke a window, I must kill all little boys. That is the only solution untill I can kill myself.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2011, 12:08:28 PM »
I wanna play the game!!!!!!

For those of us who are religious, we generally believe that sin eventually will be overcome by all of mankind who decides to turn from it whether that turning involves accepting Jesus, reaching Nirvana, finding our zen, etc. Those who turn will live in lasting peace while those who do not will be eradicated from existance or punished.

Consider the idea that sin and evil create or should I say bring entropy into whatever system it (sin) is introduced. As long as the cancer of sin survives and spreads, the system will continue to drift further and further into disorder, pain, suffering, corruption, until finally, the system will cease to be able to live. So in this real applicable way we can see just how the wages of sin is death.

The above is what makes since of the teaching in the Christian scriptures that tells man not to love the world. The world is infected and dying and the only way to survive is to come out of it. The means by which we can be redeemed from the world is what I term as The Divine Gift.
I can see how sin is the sickness and death is the mechanism used to fight off the infection. Our universe combats sin by inflicting death so that sin cannot persist endlessly. Ultimately, death is intended to kill off the sin infection and once it has accomplished that task, it too will be done away with.
For those who survive this world via The Divine Gift, they will ever be mindful of two things. One being the Divine Gift that redeemed us from the curse of sin and secondly, the reprocussions of sin. With these things etched in mind, the survivors will not participate in or give sin a chance to be reborn in the new habitation because they know the consequences.


from a Bible-believing perspective
-------------------

The first thing we realize about our freewill is that it is a function of our ability, resources, influence, and might. We are of course incapable of acting beyond those parameters which have been put in place at the highest perceivable level by natural law. Now, being confronted with the reality of natural law, we must assume that those laws had to be implemented by something powerful and intelligent that is NOT subject to the natural parameters. Then after coming this far we are left with these questions:

WHY would an intelligent and powerful being design the natural world and have us in it?

Did He just make us for the sake of creating something?

Is our reality a small part of something much bigger?


Here's where belief comes in (in determining what above listed reason one subscribes to). I personally am persuaded that God created us, our universe, and the laws that govern it for reason's beyond what is contained within our sphere (the 3rd question). In other words, our existence plays a part in something bigger. So in a real since I believe we are the tools, yes I said tools used by God to accomplish something big. He had/has a PURPOSE for our world's creation that will be fully revealed in the course or at the end of what we call time.

Based on this assumption (which is all it is), I believe that after the creation act, God's only intervention in this world would occur for but 2 reasons. The first being to ensure that His ultimate will is accomplished and secondly, because He loves those He created, and His priority is based on that order (His will followed by His love for us).
Now, when His will is ultimately accomplished and He no longer has use for this creation; why would He continue to allow it to exist? My guess is that He would/will not, and I say this because if He is indeed a perfect "GOD" who hates the practice of evil, His toleration for the goings on of our world will one day cease. I believe that this is where His love for us is truly apparent in that though our "usefulness expires, He grants us the opportunity to not only continue to exist, but also exist in a "new" habitation not infected with evil. In order to receive this gift, we must do so on God's terms, because remember, we are limited creatures. Those of us who submit to those terms will be blessed with the gift(s) that GOD offers while those who do not will not be spared the destruction that is reserved for our reality anyway.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 12:18:33 PM by Truth OT »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2011, 12:16:49 PM »

Oh, I see. We have a OneTrueChristianTM here ladies and gentlemen. The other 38000 denominations are wrong of course... not to mention every other religion in the world and those of us who don't have a religion.
Way to add on to what I said. Hey if you wanna interpret Romeo and Juliet as two cowboys who loved sponge baths then be my guest. Just because you wanna take on that interpretation doesn't make you right though does it?

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Of course, the other 38000 denominations also claim to be TrueChristiansTM ... but hey, I'll just take Tweeterfist word for it shall I? [/sarcasm]
Why not do some research yourself? Isn't it us silly religious that simply listen to what we're told?


Regardless if you did what you were instructed to do, or you came to this conclusion through studying your book of mythology, does not change that this is a one true Christian claim. You are quite full of them, and in your arrogance that you do have the TrueChristianTM intrepretation , don't seem to notice.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2011, 12:25:59 PM »

Oh, I see. We have a OneTrueChristianTM here ladies and gentlemen. The other 38000 denominations are wrong of course... not to mention every other religion in the world and those of us who don't have a religion.
Way to add on to what I said. Hey if you wanna interpret Romeo and Juliet as two cowboys who loved sponge baths then be my guest. Just because you wanna take on that interpretation doesn't make you right though does it?

Quote
Of course, the other 38000 denominations also claim to be TrueChristiansTM ... but hey, I'll just take Tweeterfist word for it shall I? [/sarcasm]
Why not do some research yourself? Isn't it us silly religious that simply listen to what we're told?


Regardless if you did what you were instructed to do, or you came to this conclusion through studying your book of mythology, does not change that this is a one true Christian claim. You are quite full of them, and in your arrogance that you do have the TrueChristianTM intrepretation , don't seem to notice.
I do notice and I take pride in it because the Word of God is not meant to be understood a billion different ways subjectively. Once you get down to the meat and potatoes of it you can also see why it's logically impossible for it to be. I find it funny you call me arrogant when I'm simply expressing my views as to what I've found factual in the Bible or not. If this is arrogance then I don't know what we'd call the general stances of the community at large here.  ;)

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2011, 12:39:11 PM »

Regardless if you did what you were instructed to do, or you came to this conclusion through studying your book of mythology, does not change that this is a one true Christian claim. You are quite full of them, and in your arrogance that you do have the TrueChristianTM intrepretation , don't seem to notice.
I do notice and I take pride in it because the Word of God is not meant to be understood a billion different ways subjectively. Once you get down to the meat and potatoes of it you can also see why it's logically impossible for it to be. I find it funny you call me arrogant when I'm simply expressing my views as to what I've found factual in the Bible or not. If this is arrogance then I don't know what we'd call the general stances of the community at large here.  ;)

Tell that to the other 37999 other varieties of Christian, and guess what, they will tell you you are wrong. Yours is just another OneTrueChristian claim. One more variety of intpretation of a book of fairie tales. Were it facts, opinions would tend to converge, rather than diverge.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2011, 12:47:54 PM »
Tell that to the other 37999 other varieties of Christian, and guess what, they will tell you you are wrong. Yours is just another OneTrueChristian claim. One more variety of intpretation of a book of fairie tales. Were it facts, opinions would tend to converge, rather than diverge.

I'm kinda starting to think this argument may in fact have some Strawman qualities as on the surface it implies that there is vast disagreement among all of the 38k "varieties" of the Christian faith. In addition, it seems to imply that all of those faiths are scrictly Bible-based and the 38k different interpretations are gleaned from the sames texts.
Isn't it true that there are in fact way some commonalities between the different denominations than this argument lets on? Can't all Bible based Christian faiths be classified as either:

Catholic/Orthodox (?)
Protestant
Reformed

Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2011, 12:51:59 PM »

Regardless if you did what you were instructed to do, or you came to this conclusion through studying your book of mythology, does not change that this is a one true Christian claim. You are quite full of them, and in your arrogance that you do have the TrueChristianTM intrepretation , don't seem to notice.
I do notice and I take pride in it because the Word of God is not meant to be understood a billion different ways subjectively. Once you get down to the meat and potatoes of it you can also see why it's logically impossible for it to be. I find it funny you call me arrogant when I'm simply expressing my views as to what I've found factual in the Bible or not. If this is arrogance then I don't know what we'd call the general stances of the community at large here.  ;)

Tell that to the other 37999 other varieties of Christian, and guess what, they will tell you you are wrong. Yours is just another OneTrueChristian claim. One more variety of intpretation of a book of fairie tales. Were it facts, opinions would tend to converge, rather than diverge.
They converge on many points obviously. There are just some that people see more open to what is obviously being stated to begin with. The reflection of ignorance doesn't mean there's not a truth or a fact behind something. That's a very generalized, apathetic, and truly naive outlook.

Also, once you begin to understand that many of these denominations were put out to purely be lies themselves then you begin to see there's more to it than just errors in interpretations...

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2011, 01:01:26 PM »
Tell that to the other 37999 other varieties of Christian, and guess what, they will tell you you are wrong. Yours is just another OneTrueChristian claim. One more variety of intpretation of a book of fairie tales. Were it facts, opinions would tend to converge, rather than diverge.

I'm kinda starting to think this argument may in fact have some Strawman qualities as on the surface it implies that there is vast disagreement among all of the 38k "varieties" of the Christian faith. In addition, it seems to imply that all of those faiths are scrictly Bible-based and the 38k different interpretations are gleaned from the sames texts.
Isn't it true that there are in fact way some commonalities between the different denominations than this argument lets on? Can't all Bible based Christian faiths be classified as either:

Catholic/Orthodox (?)
Protestant
Reformed

Certainly they can be classified as such. But animals can be classified as
Air Breathers
Gilled

that still doesn't change that Whales and Cockroaches still fit in the category "Air Breather" Sure there's some comonality about the avioli sacs at the bases of their lungs, how their blood carries oxygen to created energy for movement.

But none of them claim that "All other air breathers are doing it wrong" and that's the fundamental difference. It isn't the fact that there is so many vaireies of Christianity, it is the implication, and several cases, including this one, the express notion that the others are incorrect.

 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2011, 01:06:15 PM »
Certainly they can be classified as such. But animals can be classified as
Air Breathers
Gilled

that still doesn't change that Whales and Cockroaches still fit in the category "Air Breather" Sure there's some comonality about the avioli sacs at the bases of their lungs, how their blood carries oxygen to created energy for movement.

But none of them claim that "All other air breathers are doing it wrong" and that's the fundamental difference. It isn't the fact that there is so many vaireies of Christianity, it is the implication, and several cases, including this one, the express notion that the others are incorrect.

I get it, and to an extent you and others who employ this method are correct, but only to an extent as most denominations, other than Catholics and Campbellites, do not make the claim that all others are are wrong and doomed because of it.
In fact, the differences between many denominations is barely perceivable.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2011, 01:20:15 PM »
And the LDS, and the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Orthodox variants, and the Family, and the Southern Baptist Convention, and Calvinist types (all predestination), etc. I certainly don't see the differences between denominations being "barely perceiveable". 

your categories ignore lots and lots of major differences.

YOu ask
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I do notice and I take pride in it because the Word of God is not meant to be understood a billion different ways subjectively. Once you get down to the meat and potatoes of it you can also see why it's logically impossible for it to be. I find it funny you call me arrogant when I'm simply expressing my views as to what I've found factual in the Bible or not. If this is arrogance then I don't know what we'd call the general stances of the community at large here
  And your "meat and potatoes" are just one mroe Christian sure that his version is the only version.  You are sure, for some reason, that this nonsense is "not" to be understood differently.  Until you can show evidence that your views have any support for being what is "factual" in teh bible, you are just one more sect, that you have created for your self.

TOT, if you hadn't noticed, is someone makes a claim of "fact" they support it.  You don't seem able to do the same thing and thus the "general stance" of others here is a curious thing to question when they aren't the same.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2011, 01:23:32 PM by velkyn »
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Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2011, 01:28:53 PM »
All I'm saying is there are much more valid interpretations to be found from the Bible, and only one of them fits perfectly and is no where contradicted or extrapolated as we see with many denominations.

What many of you are saying is this is impossible, which I find pretty naive, but I understand where you're coming from because I once was in those shoes too. But more shall come.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2011, 01:29:55 PM »
Since the Fall, death has been necessary both in this world and as a final punishment in the next (You will not be tortured forever, that's a pagan Catholic concept that was worked into Christianity) because heaven is something to be earned. We gave up our pure bodies by initially sinning so to all those who are aware, God holds them accountable to either strive to return and redeem ourselves to his original intent for us or accept our corrupted form and, by that, not accept heaven and what we once had. You pretty much reject it so why would you be given it?

Ah, typical Christian nonsense.  In addition to beign sure that his version is the ony "right" one, we have tweet sure that we are evidently ignorant of what the bible does say, rather than what he'd like us to beleive.  Your god doesn't give an automatic "out" to those who aren't aware.  Everyone is damned by original sin, because if not, your "savior" is pointless.  JC never says that people aren't damned, he says that the only way not to be is to accept him. 

And this corrupted form. Who allowed this to be corrupted?  God.  Either he wanted the snake in teh garden and being omniscient knew humans would fail and made them to do so, or he was too stupid to realize it was there.  Which explanation to do you prefer, tweet? 

If God intended us to be nothing more than automatons worshipping him, why not just start with that?  Why have a religion that no one can agree on as the supposed "only" way to be redeemed.  How do you know you got the right version, tweet?  When you die, maybe Anubis will judge your heart against the feather of Ma'at? 

Oh and please do show how your version is the "only" one that fits "perfectly", and that it's "no where contradicted or extrapolated.
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Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2011, 01:47:49 PM »
Ah, typical Christian nonsense.  In addition to beign sure that his version is the ony "right" one, we have tweet sure that we are evidently ignorant of what the bible does say, rather than what he'd like us to beleive.  Your god doesn't give an automatic "out" to those who aren't aware.  Everyone is damned by original sin, because if not, your "savior" is pointless.  JC never says that people aren't damned, he says that the only way not to be is to accept him.
Wrong. Ever hear of the Second Judgement? ''God winks at the pagans''? ''Those without law write it as a law unto themselves?'' God judges us by how much we truly know, meaning all in here are accountable for their sins but someone in the tribal regions who has never heard of Christ will be judged by their heart and works.

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And this corrupted form. Who allowed this to be corrupted?  God.  Either he wanted the snake in teh garden and being omniscient knew humans would fail and made them to do so, or he was too stupid to realize it was there.  Which explanation to do you prefer, tweet?
Ah you look at it so linearly. God could have killed Lucifer when he first rebelled but what would that really prove? Instead he gives all the choice to reject him and his wisdom and through our free will, looking at what the absence of God can cause, we find his teachings pure and true. Is this not a better way to make people understand instead of silencing those who speak against him?

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If God intended us to be nothing more than automatons worshipping him, why not just start with that?  Why have a religion that no one can agree on as the supposed "only" way to be redeemed.  How do you know you got the right version, tweet?  When you die, maybe Anubis will judge your heart against the feather of Ma'at?
God never intended for us to be like that, he intends us for ourselves to willingly see why he is right and deserves worship. I know I'm right because my views are not only backed up by the Bible, but history, politics, and all sorts of other things which I will post. I need to go now though lol I keep getting sucked into these convos...

I'll leave you with this to go over and chew on a bit. I help moderate the forums, everyone is welcome there. We have a good blend of different faiths and beliefs, a perfect breeding grounds for you all to speak your minds. Different breeds of Christians though hehe... I'd also look over the site itself. Plenty of very interesting things. Only one small facet to why I know God is living and we have all been widely deceived.

http://vigilantcitizen.com/

Offline Nam

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2011, 01:51:58 PM »
To the OP,

I see signs of that on my neighbors fences and shit.  I live in a highly populated Southern Baptist/Baptist area.  Poor me.

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This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2011, 01:56:19 PM »
And the LDS, and the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Orthodox variants, and the Family, and the Southern Baptist Convention, and Calvinist types (all predestination), etc. I certainly don't see the differences between denominations being "barely perceiveable". 

your categories ignore lots and lots of major differences.

 TOT, if you hadn't noticed, is someone makes a claim of "fact" they support it.  You don't seem able to do the same thing and thus the "general stance" of others here is a curious thing to question when they aren't the same.

You could be correct in stating that the 3 catagories I listed is not exhaustive as I pulled them from the top of my head. I would assert though that groups such as the LDS system would not be classified as scrictly Bible-based as they have another authoritive book they employ on par with the Bible. As for the others you mentioned, can't they each fall into on eof the catagories I listed?

SBC and the Calvanist types are both protestant while the SDA's are definately part of the reformation along with other groups like the Church of Christ, etc.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2011, 02:04:24 PM »
Ah, typical Christian nonsense.  In addition to beign sure that his version is the ony "right" one, we have tweet sure that we are evidently ignorant of what the bible does say, rather than what he'd like us to beleive.  Your god doesn't give an automatic "out" to those who aren't aware.  Everyone is damned by original sin, because if not, your "savior" is pointless.  JC never says that people aren't damned, he says that the only way not to be is to accept him.
Wrong. Ever hear of the Second Judgement? ''God winks at the pagans''? ''Those without law write it as a law unto themselves?'' God judges us by how much we truly know, meaning all in here are accountable for their sins but someone in the tribal regions who has never heard of Christ will be judged by their heart and works.
Hmm, just how do you know that God thinks the RCC are pagans?  Please do show this.  Show me that the Pope doesn’t hear directly from this god of yours.  And per your bible, that’s just one of multiple ways to be “saved” and judged.  Unfortunately for you, your fellow Christians, also can point to the bible and say it’s only “grace” that saves, or “works” or acceptance of JC as savior, etc.  And thus, your claim that those who dont’ know about your god are saved.  That’s a nice little bit you actually got from the RCC since they didn’t like the idea of good people being damned either.
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Ah you look at it so linearly. God could have killed Lucifer when he first rebelled but what would that really prove? Instead he gives all the choice to reject him and his wisdom and through our free will, looking at what the absence of God can cause, we find his teachings pure and true. Is this not a better way to make people understand instead of silencing those who speak against him?
Why yes, your god could have done that.  Why not?  And yep, linearly since that’s the story the bible tells. And no, we don’t all get the choice to reject him, per your own bible.  Your god says directly that it does not allow everyone to comprehend and choose.  Romans 9, Matthew 13, other parts of the gospels, all have that there are people intended to never be allowed to choose. So your claim that God wants us to choose is false and unsupported. And what does the “absence of God” cause, tweet?  I see nothing that it causes or that anything is “pure and true” about the stories people tell about it.  I see nothing that this god does at all.  All thesits claim that their god does “x” but they can’t show that it was “their” god that did *anything* at all.  I think a better way for getting people to choose is to show that your god exists.  But evidently it won’t or it can’t since it doesn’t exist. 
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God never intended for us to be like that, he intends us for ourselves to willingly see why he is right and deserves worship.
Really, that’s not what your bible says.  and How does it show that it’s right and that it “deserves” anything?  I know my husband deserves my love because I know he exists.  and how do you know that Anubis wont’ be there?
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I know I'm right because my views are not only backed up by the Bible, but history, politics, and all sorts of other things which I will post. I need to go now though lol I keep getting sucked into these convos...
So show it.  Show how the bible supports you and only you.  Show that history or politics or “all sorts of things” support you.  But you can’t can you?  You just make vague claims. 
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I'll leave you with this to go over and chew on a bit. I help moderate the forums, everyone is welcome there. We have a good blend of different faiths and beliefs, a perfect breeding grounds for you all to speak your minds. Different breeds of Christians though hehe... I'd also look over the site itself. Plenty of very interesting things. Only one small facet to why I know God is living and we have all been widely deceived.
Wow, quite a little nest of conspiracy theories, appeals to authority, baseless claims, etc.  Indeed, fnord.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline velkyn

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2011, 02:06:02 PM »
And the LDS, and the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Orthodox variants, and the Family, and the Southern Baptist Convention, and Calvinist types (all predestination), etc. I certainly don't see the differences between denominations being "barely perceiveable". 

your categories ignore lots and lots of major differences.

 TOT, if you hadn't noticed, is someone makes a claim of "fact" they support it.  You don't seem able to do the same thing and thus the "general stance" of others here is a curious thing to question when they aren't the same.

You could be correct in stating that the 3 catagories I listed is not exhaustive as I pulled them from the top of my head. I would assert though that groups such as the LDS system would not be classified as scrictly Bible-based as they have another authoritive book they employ on par with the Bible. As for the others you mentioned, can't they each fall into on eof the catagories I listed?

SBC and the Calvanist types are both protestant while the SDA's are definately part of the reformation along with other groups like the Church of Christ, etc.

Not on the basis of your claims that there are 'barely percievable" differences. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2011, 02:06:54 PM »
Wow, quite a little nest of conspiracy theories, appeals to authority, baseless claims, etc. 

Indeed, fnord.

Yes, Fnord indeed. I only had to scan it for a few minultes to realize we either have a nutbag or a Poe. And I'm beginning the think the latter.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2011, 02:12:59 PM »
I would love to reply but I really do need to go. It saddens me that you guys are so judgmental off reading barely anything there. A better example is the Sinister Sites sections which contain heavily occultic symbolism within our government architecture. This is not something you can deny as it is plainly there with cryptic symbolism and language on display.

I truly do hope you look over the site well so that when I return I can get some views from you guys, not just skimming it and passing it off as crazy. That's what a fool would do. You want some of the reasons I believe I'm right? Some of them are contained within there.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2011, 02:17:21 PM »
I would love to reply but I really do need to go. It saddens me that you guys are so judgmental off reading barely anything there. A better example is the Sinister Sites sections which contain heavily occultic symbolism within our government architecture. This is not something you can deny as it is plainly there with cryptic symbolism and language on display.

I truly do hope you look over the site well so that when I return I can get some views from you guys, not just skimming it and passing it off as crazy. That's what a fool would do. You want some of the reasons I believe I'm right? Some of them are contained within there.

FNORD
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2011, 02:28:09 PM »
Fnord, DAMN!

I've learned so much since I came here.

Fnord is the color only blind people can see.

I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

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Offline Tweeterfist

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Re: Why is the wages of sin is death?
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2011, 02:31:04 PM »
I would love to reply but I really do need to go. It saddens me that you guys are so judgmental off reading barely anything there. A better example is the Sinister Sites sections which contain heavily occultic symbolism within our government architecture. This is not something you can deny as it is plainly there with cryptic symbolism and language on display.

I truly do hope you look over the site well so that when I return I can get some views from you guys, not just skimming it and passing it off as crazy. That's what a fool would do. You want some of the reasons I believe I'm right? Some of them are contained within there.

FNORD

Typical. Your bunch are no different than the religious you despise. You are simply on the other side of the spectrum but are just as zealous with your beliefs of unbelief. You condemn the pious to be of bigots, elitists, arrogant, judgmental, hateful, and close-minded yet the community here upholds these characteristics just as well, even more so. When given information that may conflict with what you believe, you do not examine it carefully, digest it, contemplate it, and then give response. You simply judge, mock, and inhibit yourselves to it.

You would rather feel enlightened and intelligent rather than pursue knowledge of any sort to make yourselves truly so. You are the new era of religious-minded fools only with a different doctrine and what's so funny is you're not even aware of the irony in it all. I have met plenty of your kind. They are everywhere, in all shapes and forms. You people think religion spawns this when it is simply people themselves and it can apply to politics, science, and all types of different things.

Religion isn't the root of these problems, it's simply people like yourselves. I have been shown zero respect as a person and as to what I believe upon entering here, much like a man of science would back in the Dark Ages. This I expected and it's quite sad that I had already knew it was coming, but there was a time where I was much like you, albeit I was a teenager and learned how my arrogance and bias blinded me. Quite sad.

I'll make a thread on this topic for serious answers, and if you guys can't do that then you are simply not even worth my time because none of you are interested in learning, only slandering.