I stated I would not reply to abusive posts, but I’ll make an exception in hypagoga’s case to make a point because his response is so similar to nearly all of the responses I’ve seen so far. Do you people really think a valid argument consists of ad hominem attacks? I’ve been in enough debates to know that when people resort to such tactics it only reinforces the fact that you have absolutely no evidence in your favor. In addition, it tells me you know absolutely nothing about what you are talking about and are simply resorting to evolutionary propaganda sites, talkorigins being one of the worst. I have frequented talk origins and they are absolutely the most dishonest and deceitful site I have ever seen with a stated purpose of refuting creationist “nonsense” regardless of what dishonest tactics they must use. I have repeatedly and personally seen complete and outright lies and deceptions on their site and if that is what you are relying on it is no wonder that all you can do is resort to ad hominem attacks. Now, I’m perfectly aware that you will probably say the same thing about creationist sites. But that just reinforces the fact that we should be looking at the arguments and not the sites.
In addition, simply because you cite a source, that makes you correct? How absolutely absurd! In a reasonable discussion or debate, it is the quality of the arguments and education of the participants that matter, not how many sources you can cite or how often you can use that as an excuse not to face the facts. Simply because some idiot arrogantly states on their site that these claims have been debunked, doesn’t mean they have been. I can certainly point you to many creationist sites which claim that they have debunked the evolutionist claims you say have debunked the creationist claims! What does that prove? Why don’t I have your agent call my agent and we’ll forgo wasting the time to even have these discussions. Why don’t you have the balls to actually refute any of these claims yourself? In all probability it is because you can’t.
Now having said all that, we should step back for a moment. Not all of us here are scientists, so it is perfectly acceptable to rely on the expertise of others. However, all humans are fallible including scientists, evolutionists and creationist alike, and all of our theories are going to change over time based on new evidence. That is why it is doubly ridiculous to attack and ridicule creationists simply because an evolutionist says they have supposedly debunked creation scientists’ research, particularly while in all reality you have never even looked at the creationist research.
To demonstrate the fallacy of some of the evolutionist claims you cite, in a future post (and probably most appropriate in a new thread) I’ll take one of those claims and dissect it in detail. In the meantime, almost any creationist site is available (and I’ll suggest the creation wiki or the true origin archive) to refute the claims at talkorigins. And by the way, BioLogos is not a “Christian” site, it is an evolutionist site, so don’t make it appear as if you are citing a non-biased source.
Lastly, it is the opinion of the majority of Americans that the creationist arguments are the ones that are so “overwhelming” that they need not be repeated continually. Therefore that is no reason not to defend your “bizarre [evolutionist] fantasies”.
Please, please, please, PLEASE stop bitching about people "being mean" to you. You do it in every. single. post. We get it. Your oppressed. Your being persecuted for your beliefs. You want everyone to play nice nice with you and handle you with kid gloves, while you insulate yourself behind a shield of cosmic superiority where everybody who isn't you has it wrong or is closed minded. You want to be able to regurgitate any damn fool thing that crosses your mind and have the forum read in rapt awe while responding with "Well that is just SO interesting!" and "Well isn't that profound?" and "Oh gee I guess you're right about that! No need to fact check here, no sir!"
And when we read something that is laughably false and delusional, demonstrating again and again that you're woefully out of touch with reality, we should respond with "Well, I must respectfully disagree with you there, because I do not believe that comets fall under the category of evolutionary science, sir..."
I'm sorry, I really am, but the world doesn't work that way. When somebody shows up on your doorstep and starts making ludicrous claims, and insisting that what they say is truth and you either believe them or admit to being "willfully ignorant" (maybe coupled by a lovely threat of eternal suffering), you're often going to get a big "f**k you".
Why SHOULDN'T people be rude to you considering how insistant you are that they accept your "truths" at face-value? Or how poorly you handle it when people say you're wrong? Simply because YOU say these things? Who are you? A super special snowflake with his finger on the pulse of the universe? Someone who is just soooooo enlightened, we're all fools for not standing in awe of your cliche'd bite-sized nuggets of ancient superstitious apologia? Because your bible says these things? To most of us, it's just a really old book written for bronze age goatherders. And not a very interesting or convincing one.
I fully understand that to you, these "truths" are self evident. God is obvious everywhere you look, right? As you've said. Of course it is! Because, among other reasons, you've done some really heavy twisting of the word "God". Amazing display of nature? That's god at work. An amazing coincidence? No, that's god. Something completely unexplainable? More god. Baby's are born. God. A lucky break on your taxes? God. A wood and drywall church burns down and the only thing left standing is a cast-iron Jesus? God. God, god, god, everywhere you look.
The capital-G God of Christianity has been expanded and re-defined so often that the current incarnation has virtually nothing in common with the original Yahweh of the book. YAHWEH walked the Earth and smote motherfuckers with raining Sulphur and boils and plagues of locusts and s**t. 21st Century Christian "God" hides in the cracks "outside the universe/reality" but is also everywhere and in everything, and interacts with humanity through really ambiguous and half-assed miracles, like appearing on toast or curing arthritis.
Hell, for the majority of the 38,000 denominations of Christianity, it's practically a pantheist god with a back-story and a bunch of fan-fiction written in. Capital g "God" in Christianity has become a catch-all phrase and the spackle with which theists use to fill in the cracks of their knowledge and understanding.
But when you spend an entire lifetime being indoctrinated, threatened with eternal punishments, surrounded by friends and loved ones who have been similarily duped... You'll buy whatever god the people you care about are selling. Decades of hearing other religious types use their natural gifts of creativity to weave these stunning tapestries of rationalizations and best-fits when it's convenient and out-and-out indignant dismissal when it's not... They whip up an answer for everything, no matter how convoluted or far-fetched, and when you've got 1,600 years to fill in plot-holes, I'm sure it's all very compelling - assuming you've spent a lifetime being told it's all true ad naseum.
Though I suppose, alternatively, your faith and belief could be a new occurance, something you've just come across in your life after spending so many years fucking it up flatter than hammered s**t; adulterers, addicts, habitual gamblers, violent criminals, sexual predators, etc... Maybe a good long bid on a prison cellblock brought you to Jesus... Which, if this is the case, only demonstrates religion's ability to make the believer smiley face because it removes the burden of responsiblity from their shoulders (that was the devil/lack of gawd in you!) and tells them that cosmically, you're a swell guy/gal as long as you believe what you're told. You were circling the drain of life and Jesus saved you and put you on the road to recovery/rehabilitation. Yay.
Either way, point is, however you came to be a part of that cult
ure, a god-operated world is reality to you, and moreover, it's imperitive that you continue to believe it no matter what the cost, because to question it is to question virtually everything you know about the world and reality itself. Not to mention the threat of eternal anguish. It all makes for one massive deterrent.
I get it.
But what YOU need to understand, is that your god is no more a "fact" to anyone outside your faith than is Santa Clause. We don't really secretly believe in it, no more than we secretly believe in Muhammad or Lord Xenu. Honest. I swear. And believe it or not, I actually do know what I do and don't believe better than you do. Hard to swallow, I'm sure, but it's a fact Jack.
Because to those of us on the outside looking in? The entire religion is simply beyond silly. I know that seems offensive; it is what it is. I'm all about respecting people's beliefs as a general rule, but there IS a line which, when crossed, no longer asks for the courtesy of respect and in fact begs for vehement disagreement and yes, even open ridicule.
I can't speak for other atheists on this, but I can speak for the majority I think: Hearing Christians profess the truth of things like talking donkeys and quantum boats-of-unlimited-holding and chicks made out of ribs... That the world is 6,000 years old and humans lived alongside dinosaurs and that the Grand Canyon was formed over the course of 40 days and 40 nights by a global flood (that all of geology agrees there is no evidence for at all)...This stuff is ridiculous. It offends all common sense and rational thought. It would be one thing if it's harmless, but it's not. It harms people every day. Sometimes in truly horrible ways, like starving a toddler for not saying "Amen" at mealtime. Or thinking your children are possessed and drowning them in bathtub.
Can you really not see how people might not believe? Or be actively repulsed by what they preceive to be abhorrant and vile behavior in the deity that you worship and claim to "love"? Truly? Can you REALLY not conceive, at all, how somebody could hear a person like yourself rattle off these fantastic and wholly unbelievable "truths", and couple that with the stories of talking livestock and other magical occurances, and simply say "No, I don't buy it." and then couple it with instructions for stoning cheating wives and disobedient children and homosexuals and how to treat your slaves etc. etc., and then go a step further and say "No, I don't buy it... And I'm disgusted that you would profess to worship such a depraved monster of an imaginary friend."?
When you were told the story of Thor the Thunder God and his magic hammer, did you really give it honest consideration? How much time did you spend weighing the various arguements for and against the Greek pantheon? Days? Weeks? Years? Would you call yourself "closed-minded" for not giving a lot of thought to the idea that the world is carried on the back of a giant turtle, or that Romulus and Reamus were nursed by a giant cosmic she-wolf?
Your religion comes across equally as hokey and unbelievable as any of Aesop's fables. Again, I'm sure this comes across as offensive, but that's what it is to people outside your circle of believers. It has no more evidence to support it than any other god story in history, and it's actually LESS believable because there is SO MUCH content to tear apart. The longer you make your story, the more plotholes and inconsistencies you're going to have. Thus Christianity is one of the easiest old-world religions to dismiss as myth and superstition.
I can not for the life of me comprehend what it must be like in the mind of a fundamentalist or bible literalist. You have to bend over backwards to try and dismiss SO much scientific data, and you need one ENORMOUS ego in order to hand-wave away the work of tens of thousands of men and women who have devoted their lives to science and the pursuit of truth. They're all wrong, and YOU are right, because the bible tells you so. The same bible that spends a huge chunk of it's time making analogies to livestock and farming.
What possible reason does anyone outside your cult have to give any sort of credence to that book over the modern, testable results made by well-educated humans over combined millions of man hours?
The thing says that plants were created before the sun. No photosynthesis? Were they powered by lollipops for a day? It says you can cure leprosy by rubbing bird blood on yourself. That pi = 3. That you can breed striped goats by having them fuc... Sorry, FORNICATE in front of striped sticks. It says the sky is a partition and that space is an ocean. It says the earth sits on pillars. It says Earth is a circle. It says bats are birds and that rabbits chew cud and that bugs have four legs.
It goes on, and on, and on, and on. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html
for another few hundred examples. Biology, cosmology, astronomy, physics, geometry, geology... Time after time it makes one embarassing mistake after another. And time after time the believers come up with excuses and rationalizations and apologia for why in the 21st century, reality doesn't line up with the worldview of 1,600 year old desert priests.
With that kind of track record, coupled with dragons and unicorns and whatnot, what possible reason would I, or anyone outside the indoctrination, have to consider this as a viable alternative to the myriad of scientific discoveries over the last few hundred years?
Science's track record in the realm of science is pretty amazing. It's given us clean water, medicine, easy transportation, global communication,The bible's is, frankly, pitiful. So for my money, I'm going with the guy with the microscope who can literally show you that there are no tiny fairies pushing a nucleus around an atom.
You keep saying things like how it's SOOOO obvious that there is a god (not just any god, either, but YOUR god, the one who collects foreskins), that because it's SOOOO apparent, the billions of people who don't buy into your outlandish beliefs are just in denial or something...
Newsflash: Truthfully, I tell you - billions of people REALLY TRULY FOR REALZ do not believe in your god at all. Honest. Hand to heart. No B.S. I know that's impossible for you to fathom. We hear it all the time. You just can't comprehend non-belief. But you can if you try. You don't believe in Zeus, I'm assuming? Or Ra? It is the *EXACT* same thing with the Christian god and everyone who is not a Christian.
Which, I might add, is like 90% of the Asians on the planet, and like what? 80% of the East Indians? Another 85% of Middle-Easterners? Don't know how accurate those percentages are, but they're damn close.
What I'm saying is that entire swaths of humanity, according to your religion, are condemned to an eternity of torture simply based on where they were born and what religion was dominate in their particular culture.
An extrapolation of that... Pretty much the entirity of Asians who have ever lived are in hell now, because Christianity has never managed to get a seriously significant foothold in Asian cultures. A common reason sited is because they find the worship of a man crucified to be morbid, and the deity to be immoral and often incompetent. Up until maybe a hundred years ago I think, Christianity accounted for something like .05% of Chinese religious beliefs. That is a LOT of unjust suffering, I'd say, simply because those poor bastards had the misfortune of being born in a country that wasn't predominately European, or conquered by Europeans in recent history.
Anyway, rant is nearly concluded... But in conclusion I'd like to ask...
Do you have any idea how insulting it is to be told what you think or believe? Or don't?
Wouldn't it piss you off if I kept insisting that you really believe in the Loch Ness Monster or that Superman was real, and you were just in denial?
Do you have any idea how presumptuous and pretentious you have to be to assume that everybody who doesn't see the world as you see it is an inferior human being not only in life, but COSMICALLY and ETERNALLY?
Sadly, it's far from the first time we've seen that sort of thing here. A huge part of Christianity is being able to dehumanize the non-believers and satanic atheists who would tempt your faith. The faggots and the gamblers and the junkies and the baby-eating atheists and the sinister Jews and the subversive Catholics and the evil Mormons and blah blah blah everybody who doesn't adhere to my particular flavor of delusion.
Because if you can make them sub-human, and put yourself above them, it's a lot easier to digest the idea of them being tortured for eternity by an allegedly "Loving" space genie. Ain't it?
This rant was brought to you by Jameson's Irish whiskey. Sinfully fueling good times for blasphemous heathens since 1780.
You're missing the points does not make it lack content.
What logical points did I miss? He seemed to take a rather long time to get to the point. It could be that I was just in a bad mood when I read the post. My humanity and impatience has been exposed.
I definitely got annoyed half way through. What i read was, "you are an idiot" being presented in lurid and admittedly humorous detail.
Do I really need to advise you to STOP READING if something annoys you halfway through?
It's alright though. I definitely find your overuse of emoticons to be annoying, so now we have something in common!
The logical points I made?
Well, for the bulk of the post I attempted to provide advise (albeit hostile advice
) on how to actually make some headway in a conversation here, or how to get people to actually acknowledge and consider far-out things someone present as "fact".
Here I thought I was trying to be helpful. While entertaining myself at the same time.
I apologize if my posting style offends your tender sensibilities to the point where you feel obliged to comment on it and give me a big "thumbs down" though.
In the future, if you insist on reading things that annoy you, and then cherry-picking things I write in order to summarize them in the form of something like an epically long insult or whatever it was that ruffled yer feathers, you can do us both a favor and simply skip over anything with my name next to it!
I will not complain. Promise.
Alternatively, I could always submit my posts to you for your approval first?
Actually, no, scratch that, let's just stick with "Well, don't fuckin' read it then."
Yeah. That works for me.