Slavery in the bible always always misunderstood I am not a pastor!! [#2591]

[Nam]

I stopped reading after the second paragraph.  The "Jesus was sold..." thing is figurative, where as other slavery in the bible is LITERAL!

-Nam

[tinujatinpatel]

Hi all

Some interesting questions are being posed. Can't resist to answer them!!!

First God is not a fictious character. He does and always will exist whether you or I choose not to. I would invite all who disagree, to study the Shroud of Turin very carefully. Yes I know some are already saying that its a hoax due to carbon dating putting the shroud in the 13 century or so, however this has already been refuted due to the samples being taken from the corners which were repaired using an interesting process (Pretty impressive when you think about it).

1. Why would God follow laws of men? When I see the history of the bible from what is revealed, God sometimes is very silent about events happening on earth and sometimes he is very vocal. Yes, the reasons for this are really unknown. I think its shows a lesson to be learned. Whenever laws are created by man,  they are never perfect nor do they benefit man in reality. Moreover they weaken with time. The Jewish people were chosen by God not for any other reason but because Abraham was the first to acknowledge God as a spirit. Now God shows Mercy and Grace to Abraham from the very beginning. At this time he does not give him any laws other than to separate himself from his family. This is found directly in Genesis 12:  1 Now the LORD had said to Abram: “Get out of your country,  From your family And from your father’s house,  To a land that I will show you.  2 I will make you a great nation;I will bless you And make your name great;  And you shall be a blessing.I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;  And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

    Note how God promises that ALL Families of the earth will be blessed through Abraham, that is Because Jesus came and died for all our sins. Also note no laws are given this is free. Abraham has committed sins but God is not even looking at them.
When does God actually provide laws? Well if you see carefully, Abraham disrespected God when he had sex with a slave Hagar to get children rather then trusting God to provide those children through his wife Sarah. With this disrespect came laws of circumcision. Salvation is given to the old testament people by blood of Jesus Christ. Even today all families of the earth shall be blessed includes salvation for all. In reality your's and mine faith is not expected by God to be strong enough to accept Christ on earth to the full extent. This faith can only come after you and I both die. That is Christ will come to you even after death to ask if you will accept his sacrifice on the cross for all of your sins. If you are bent on keeping those sins, you will go to hell.

2. Salvation is a free gift from God. A gift needs to be aaccepted. You do this with faith. Either now or when you die its your choice.

3. Christianity is not a religion. IT IS A FAITH in the finished work of Jesus for all sins. There is no work to be done to earn salvation nor is their a prescription plan to live your life. If you come to Jesus in this life, the Holy Spirit will fill you with Grace and you will in your own heart do what is right because you feel you want to, not because you are following the law! When you do wrong you will have no guilt if you confess the sin and ask Jesus to forgive you. The cleansing power of his blood is better then any cleaner on earth.  Therefore you will be able to have peace on earth and have the abundant life. Not many people trust Jesus however and that is fine. As I said you have one more chance at the time of death!!! Choose Jesus now and benefit today from his grace and truth.

4. I did not want to include too much of my history in the first posting as I was trying to focus on the slavery issue. However I was introduced to Jesus very early in the year of 1991 when I first began my college years at Stony Brook University in Long Island. Jesus revealed himself to me in a miracle that was for me and many a unique case. I suffered from actually eating my own skin off of the palms of my hands and fingers. I would always eat a little every day to the point where the second layer of skin would show at certain spots. This is very ugly mind you. But I couldn't help myself as the skin tasted good and somehow calmed my anxiety attacks. Late one night, I was watching my b/W TV and a pastor was on television named Robert Tilton (Later he became very corrupt; no one is perfect!). Anyway he claimed that he could see people suffering from various ailments and would claim that God was going to heal them. Of course he talked about the most common things like cancer, headaches, etc... I knew I had a unique problem so I created a test so hard only God could pass it. The very night I asked Jesus that if he was the real God that he would speak to Robert Tilton about my addiction of eating my skin the very next time I would get a chance to watch which I don't exactly remember, but it was within a week. Sure enough Robert Tilton goes on and on about the most common diseases but then he begins to say "There is a person out there who has a problem with his hands and skin" WOWWW!! I can't tell you the humbling feeling I got. I actually got God to talk to me in an indirect way as confirmation that it was Jesus. Anyway I wanted to be a christian right then. The next morning I talked to my parents about it and they began to hate me for it. They thought I was being ungrateful to their female God Ambe Mata. My mother threatened to disown me and I also was not in a position to leave. (Remember children are slaves to their parents until they are free at 18!!!) For me it was worse, I was handicapp with cructhes, no where to go. So I calmed down a bit but remained toward my goal of having faith in christ. My parents of course knew they had to get me fixed otherwise they would lose me. So they talked to their temple guru "GuruMaa" from Vedic Heritage. And of course she brainwashes me into taking the challenge. "Why leave your religion when you don't know what it offers? First know your religion before you give it up for another. Have you really given a chance to our god (In this case the monkey god Hanuman). Since I had no answers, only faith and confirmation that Jesus was real, I decided to play along. Now I don't deny that being a Hindu did in fact provide me many benefits and enjoyment. My college roomate was a muslim who told me many things about islam that appealed to me. At the time I did not study the bible, nor did I know what it mean to be a Christian. Islam appealed to me because it believed in one God  so I became a muslim out of emotions and half truths. Now my parents really new I was lost. They brought me back to hinduism with one truth. They asked so " are you going to marry your cousin sister? Because muslims do this?" I guess for me culturally that didn't jive to well and it felt kind of wrong. So I renounced that faith and back to hinduism for the next 20+ years to 2007. But it did not provide me freedom from sin. My sin which bothered me the most was lust for other women. I did not act it out but it was in my mind and that was unacceptable. I asked the hindu gods to give me peace from the guilt but I could not receive it. I had received a lot of things but not peace. No hindu God would provide it and wasn't happy. My depression grew. God in his mercy new I wanted to be free and wanted to be a believer but without support. Now was the right time since at this time I was independant with my own house and wife. Well at work many would come and lose arguments with me about God and spiritual matters but one person would defend it. His name was Marcos Cabrera. No matter what questions I posed, either he had the answers or the pastor. Finally I went to a church for the first time and I loved it . No idols, no pictures, no nothing but Jesus and the gospel truth. In about 3 weeks I converted and accepted Christ. My life has changed for the better. I will never go back to any of those religions because they are all the same. NO FORGIVENESS. 

  My friends Jesus begs for your faith in him so that you can come home. The God of this universe as big as it is, loves a creature that is so small on earth, that he was willing to die for his most wonderful creation YOU! God has given us free will and that is by itself the most powerful miracle on the face of this entire universe. Choose Him today and live a life of peace and Joy. Stop worrying about tomorrow or what science will do to refute the bible. The bible has survived pretty well for over thousands of years. More importantly the testimonies of lives changed is even better. Pray the prayer of forgiveness and ask Jesus to come into your heart and wash you whiter than snow. Nothing compares to that feeling of submission to the eternal father who always loved us. Only we never trusted in that love and received the worst for it. Live in Heaven for free and forever!!!

Amen. 

[Anfauglir]

I created a test so hard only God could pass it. The very night I asked Jesus that if he was the real God that he would speak to Robert Tilton about my addiction of eating my skin the very next time I would get a chance to watch which I don't exactly remember, but it was within a week. Sure enough Robert Tilton goes on and on about the most common diseases but then he begins to say "There is a person out there who has a problem with his hands and skin" WOWWW!!

Utter rubbish.  Have you noticed how different the criteria are that you use between THAT "test" of god, and the "test" you proposed for amputees?  How many things do you think "a problem with his hands and skin" could cover?  Do you imagine that you were the ONLY person desperately watching a healing channel in hopes that they would hear something vague that they could imagine was being addressed to them, and them alone? 

The bible has survived pretty well for over thousands of years. More importantly the testimonies of lives changed is even better.

Except, of course, the "Bible" has only existed for around 1600 years - nearly as long as the Koran which (when I last looked) was the holy book of the more rapidly expanding religion.  And there are other religions being practiced today that are just as old - or older - than Christianity.  And every single one of those religions can cite testimonies of lives changed, miracles granted, and so on.

Pray the prayer of forgiveness and ask Jesus to come into your heart and wash you whiter than snow. Nothing compares to that feeling of submission to the eternal father who always loved us.

Fair enough then.  You explain to me exactly what I need to do; and exactly what I will experience when I have done it.  And then I will follow your instructions.  If your god truly wants me to come to him he will answer me, right?

So go ahead.  Lay out exactly what I need to do.

[Graybeard]

There comes a point at which misinformation becomes so wrong that it is dangerous if it is believed. Let us look at what tinujatinpatel believes without any evidence whatsoever – not even from his Bible

Hi all.

  Its great to see such response. I will try to answer all of your questions.

[re Slavery] Remember God is just following the laws of man at the at time (which are cruel), but providing fairness for his own people.

Here tinujatinpatel claims that God follows man’s laws. Is there anyone here who thinks that there is any evidence that God obeys man’s laws? Can we pass a law to which God would be subject?

4. Do I believe in slavery? Absolutey not!!! That was not God's original plan nor is it his intentions.

First of all, God does not have an “original plan”. God has a plan, there is no biblical support for their being any change in the plan in the OT and in the NT, Jesus says he has not come to change “the law.”

Man is responsible for slavery not God.

But God arranged for the Israelites to be slaves in Egypt and Babylon, and later allows them to take captives for slaves when they commit genocide.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) See also Philemon:1

Remember its Adams fault for allowing the devil into his home

The Devil is not mentioned in Genesis. A talking snake is. But it is a snake – God is clear on that fact. Get it? A snake, not the devil:
Ge:3:1: Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
See - it was a snake - we know this because God had made it.

So Adam did not allow a snake into his "home" God made the snake and put it in Adam's home.

and thus we all INHERITED this devil.

and thus none of us INHERITED this devil. (unless your parents left you a snake in their will…)

5. Old testamant laws are very hard, both for the slaves of the Jewish and the jewish people themselves. This laws were given simply because the Jewish people BOASTED that they could keep all the laws that God would give them, instead of asking for Grace!!! Please do look at the events that happened on mount sinai when God talked with the Jewish people and how they said.
"All that the lord has spoken we will do!"

I see you are very keen on using exclamation marks!!!!eleventy!!! However, there are no punctuation marks in Biblical Hebrew, so you are just making his up.

Notice how God reacts to the response: He does not say, “I don’t believe you.” He does not say, “You realise how hard this might be.” No – He who Knows Everything, says “OK… here’s the plan…”

The alternative is that God asked something that He knew was impossible. Why would God do that?

When the Jewish people claimed that they could follow everything the lord would speak, they literally shot themselves in the foot!!!! There is no way you could keep the law of God. They signed a blank contract!!! Which resulted in the death of so many Jews .

Please stop using exclamation marks. One every 2 paragraphs is fine. More than that and you begin to look like a idiot.

[jaimehlers]

First God is not a fictious character. He does and always will exist whether you or I choose not to. I would invite all who disagree, to study the Shroud of Turin very carefully. Yes I know some are already saying that its a hoax due to carbon dating putting the shroud in the 13 century or so, however this has already been refuted due to the samples being taken from the corners which were repaired using an interesting process (Pretty impressive when you think about it).

Kindly provide links to the source you cite here, especially the interesting process you describe.  You need to provide as much solid evidence as you can, not just say that the evidence exists.

Besides, even if the Shroud of Turin were 2000 years old instead of 700, it wouldn't actually prove anything other than its age.

1. Why would God follow laws of men? When I see the history of the bible from what is revealed, God sometimes is very silent about events happening on earth and sometimes he is very vocal. Yes, the reasons for this are really unknown. I think its shows a lesson to be learned. Whenever laws are created by man,  they are never perfect nor do they benefit man in reality. Moreover they weaken with time. The Jewish people were chosen by God not for any other reason but because Abraham was the first to acknowledge God as a spirit. Now God shows Mercy and Grace to Abraham from the very beginning. At this time he does not give him any laws other than to separate himself from his family. This is found directly in Genesis 12:  1 Now the LORD had said to Abram: “Get out of your country,  From your family And from your father’s house,  To a land that I will show you.  2 I will make you a great nation;I will bless you And make your name great;  And you shall be a blessing.I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;  And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.

You are the one who said "Remember God is just following the laws of man at the at time".  Yet here you contradict your earlier statement.  Which is a more accurate summation of your belief?

Also, the fact is that God made it very clear that he did not actually trust Abraham to abide by their agreement; the most notable sign of this was when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his only son.  The fact that God gave him a last-minute reprieve is not precisely what I would call "grace and mercy".

Note how God promises that ALL Families of the earth will be blessed through Abraham, that is Because Jesus came and died for all our sins. Also note no laws are given this is free. Abraham has committed sins but God is not even looking at them.

No, it is not because of Jesus.  Jesus was probably not even descended from Abraham, assuming one accepts the logic of the virgin birth, since Mary's lineage was not given.  The fact that Christians decided this after the fact does not make it true, and the ludicrousness of trying to prove that lineal descent by giving Joseph's lineage is not even worth commenting on.

When does God actually provide laws? Well if you see carefully, Abraham disrespected God when he had sex with a slave Hagar to get children rather then trusting God to provide those children through his wife Sarah. With this disrespect came laws of circumcision. Salvation is given to the old testament people by blood of Jesus Christ. Even today all families of the earth shall be blessed includes salvation for all. In reality your's and mine faith is not expected by God to be strong enough to accept Christ on earth to the full extent. This faith can only come after you and I both die. That is Christ will come to you even after death to ask if you will accept his sacrifice on the cross for all of your sins. If you are bent on keeping those sins, you will go to hell.

Where in the Bible does it say that God commanded Abraham and his household to circumcise themselves because of Ishmael, Abraham and Hagar's son?  If God had thought this to be disrespectful, he would not have blessed Ishmael; this is the same God who said that the sins of the father would be passed on till the seventh generation, yet God said that Ishmael would be fruitful and would be the father of twelve rulers, etc.

There was no grace or mercy involved in the covenant between Abraham and God.  It was simply, "worship me and abide by this covenant and I will make you and your descendants great".  The fact that God said that he would do this earlier without attaching conditions at the time does not make it an act of grace and mercy.

2. Salvation is a free gift from God. A gift needs to be aaccepted. You do this with faith. Either now or when you die its your choice.

No, you accept gifts with gratitude.  Faith is the act in believing in something that you have no proof of.  If faith (willingness to believe in something unknowable) is required to receive salvation, then it isn't a gift, because Christian doctrine holds that you have to give faith in order to receive salvation.  In other words, faith is a payment for salvation.

3. Christianity is not a religion. IT IS A FAITH in the finished work of Jesus for all sins. There is no work to be done to earn salvation nor is their a prescription plan to live your life. If you come to Jesus in this life, the Holy Spirit will fill you with Grace and you will in your own heart do what is right because you feel you want to, not because you are following the law! When you do wrong you will have no guilt if you confess the sin and ask Jesus to forgive you. The cleansing power of his blood is better then any cleaner on earth.  Therefore you will be able to have peace on earth and have the abundant life. Not many people trust Jesus however and that is fine. As I said you have one more chance at the time of death!!! Choose Jesus now and benefit today from his grace and truth.

A religion is a system of beliefs held to with faith.  Faith is required for something to be a religion, so calling Christianity a faith instead of a religion is meaningless.  Also, whether or not you consider faith to be work, it is something you have to do in order to receive salvation.  Therefore, salvation isn't free; you have to earn it.  Nor is it a gift, as I stated above.

The rest of this is proselytizing and I see no point in commenting on it.

4. <snip for length>

First off, a disease or condition is defined as rare if it affects less than 1 person in 1500...but that is still more than 200,000 people.  So your condition of eating skin off of your hands is hardly going to be so rare that nobody else could suffer from it.  I doubt there are anywhere near as many as 1500 active members here, but nonetheless I would bet you a large sum of real money that at least one person here had or has the same condition (eating skin off their hands) as you did.

Second, your "test so hard only God could answer" is anything but.  The story you relate of Tilton mentioning someone with a problem with his hands and skin on his show after you prayed about it is not proof of anything, because I do not doubt that there are other problems involving the skin and hands that are not the same as yours.  I would not be surprised to find that Tilton mentioned different (rare) medical conditions regularly on his show, and the odds are that one of his viewers would either be suffering from it or would know someone was suffering from it and would assume God had told him about it.  And if nobody was, nobody would call him on it; for sure, his viewers wouldn't be comparing notes with each other to see when he happened to be wrong in his prediction.  I'll also bet that he got 'donations' for telling people that God would heal them.

My friends Jesus begs for your faith in him so that you can come home. The God of this universe as big as it is, loves a creature that is so small on earth, that he was willing to die for his most wonderful creation YOU! God has given us free will and that is by itself the most powerful miracle on the face of this entire universe. Choose Him today and live a life of peace and Joy. Stop worrying about tomorrow or what science will do to refute the bible. The bible has survived pretty well for over thousands of years. More importantly the testimonies of lives changed is even better. Pray the prayer of forgiveness and ask Jesus to come into your heart and wash you whiter than snow. Nothing compares to that feeling of submission to the eternal father who always loved us. Only we never trusted in that love and received the worst for it. Live in Heaven for free and forever!!!

Amen.

More proselytizing.  The only thing I will comment on is:  "nothing compares to that feeling of submission to the eternal father who always loved us".  My father, who is on Earth, never tried to get me to 'submit' to him as you claim God wants us to, certainly not while claiming to love me at the same time.  I love and respect him now, as an adult, because he gave me the room and time I needed to grow into my own person instead of an emotional cripple, reliant on him to give meaning to my life.  I certainly expect no less from God, who you say is the eternal father, because good fathers allow their children to grow up and go their own way in life.

So you're right, though not in the sense you mean; the feeling of mutual love and respect between me and my parents doesn't 'compare' to the "feeling of submission" you describe.  But that's because it blows it completely out of the water.

[Ivellios]

The LAW comes from God.
Therefore the LAW is Perfect since God is perfect.
If everyone obeyed God's perfect laws, how could society be anything but Perfect?
God the Omniscient learned[1] that it was impossible to obey ALL his laws, all the time.
Enter Jesus and Grace: If you disobey God, God gives you a warning instead of punishing.
So Christians should obey, with the knowledge that if they make an "oops," they don't need to have a stroke worrying about going to hell, if they REPENT and try to do the straight and narow.

Christian Response: It's the OT! It's just a paperweight of paper! God gave it to us for... just to have! All that matters is the NT!

Then they wonder why thier XX year old daughter ran off with a guy X/X years her senior, gets her pregnant, does the "right" thing by marrying her, and gets divorced after X/X years. And now they're having to raise the grand-child as if they're the parents because she too showed/decided to have no maturity and/or responsibility.

They could have nipped this in the bud. For getting pregnant outside of wedlock, stone her to death, just like the OT says to do. Since you're stoning a pregnant woam, yes the child dies and THAT is God's view on abortion. Since life cannot happen without God, her getting pregnant is God Signing her Death Warrant! But Christians reel at this because it violates thier sensabilities, because it's human nature to REBEL against God's Perfect Divine Love and Mercy!

And guess what? At least for a short time, no local girls will be getting pregnant outside of wedlock. In this modern age it could be televised! Instead of just scaring... err *cough* ahem 'encourage' the local girls into obeying God's perfect laws, you can coerce err... ahem 'encourage' the girls of town, country, or even the entire world to excercise thier very own free will to not get pregnant or get stoned to death!

You see? All the problems we have now are because Christians think they have a free pass, that they don't even have to try to obey God, despite him saying, "If you Love me, obey my commands."

Hisstory. Not Hisalternatestory! This IS his Perfect Plan A. There never was a plan B. Everything Happens according to His Will! Relative/friend dying of cancer and a slow and painful fashion? That's His Perfect, All Loving Will at work! Praise Jesus! Praise God! They must suffer horribly so some random Joe Doe can be inspired by thier courage. So they can become a Priest and do God's work with little boys or some other thing that inspires others to do God's work!

Yeah, it's always People doing God's work for him. God... what a slacker.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

 Once again proof Jesus did not come to end the old law. You say he "fufilled" Slavery, but here it is in the NT! Even those who say the OT doesn't mean jack ****, we're talking NT here! God and Jesus, in thier All Lovingness are PRO-Slavery!

Gah, a post appeared while typing. Maybe I'll have a follow-up later.

1.	an all knowing God learned something? I thought he ALREADY KNEW everything? Oh, so NOW he's omniscient right? right?

[Astreja]

That is Christ will come to you even after death to ask if you will accept his sacrifice on the cross for all of your sins. If you are bent on keeping those sins, you will go to hell.

I do not think that will happen, as I know of no good evidence for life after death.  I do not expect to be aware after the death of My body, nor do I expect 'Christ' to come to me.

But if he does, I will say "No.  I reject your sacrifice.  Send Me to Hell, so that I can minister to the billions of other victims you have condemned."

My friends Jesus begs for your faith in him so that you can come home.

No.  The abode of your imaginary friends is not -- And shall never be -- My 'home.'  I am not interested in your heaven or your gods.

[velkyn]

  My friends Jesus begs for your faith in him so that you can come home.

Again, baseless claims made in ignorance that many here, including me were Christians at one point.  I prayed to keep my faith but your god/JC evidently didn’t see it worth helping me. If it really wanted my faith, I am still waiting for that evidence it should know I need.  It’s been 20+ years, Christian, what’s the hold up?

[tinujatinpatel]

Looks like we need a little more understanding and better communication on my part. Sorry for the delayed response as it was busy at work.

1. Anfauglir I have already layed out what you need to do. You come to Christ as you are. Pray the prayer outlined. Read your bible out of obedience. Do what the holy spirit tells you to do. Sometimes this could mean leaving your job or country or whatever. God has a plan for you and me. Sometimes the plan is simple, live out your life, glorify God in all situations in good and in bad. For we will suffer as christians and we will reap our reward in heaven.

2. Life after death is a total reality. Too many near death experiences have been documented with some giving incredible evidences for christ while others not so much. The bible of course warns against the evidences tha Satan could present. As I understand, God and Jesus are outside of this universe by more than one layer at least. This to some extent is a mistery. I myself without exaggeration have just skimmed the first layer for only a fraction of a second. When I realized that I was out of my body I immediately ended my deep meditation out of fear. I then attempted once again to meditate deeply. As I went deeper, my visions of entering another dimension got a little to scary so I ended it again. Of course this could be all seld induced halucinations. However this is not case at all with some near death experience. Please research them on your own. One particular good case I will leave you with is Howard Storm.

3. When Jesus fulfilled the law, he fulfilled the moral law, or what is known as the 10 commandments + the levitical law. Once fulfilled this law no longer condemns the believer in Christ because he paid for it to be fulfilled for everyone who believes in him. Now slavery in the bible as I said continued to exist as did the law of 10 CMDMNTS.  When we die however, Jesus is not concerned whether we kept the law, but rather if we trust in his blood to have paid for it all. Even on earth while you live you can have that peace that God is not counting your sins or any of your failures. God knows all of us have missed the mark.

4. TruthSeeker , Even if everyone obeyed all the laws of God, (which by the way no one could do!!), society would still not be perfect, as our blood as sin in it for which this planet constantly wages war against. So we would still be subject to earthquakes famines and droughts.


5. Slavery in the NT supported by Jesus claimed:  Some individuals think slavery was bad and that it was considered the lowest possible way of being employed or supported. Many people quote Jesus with the verse " Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) See also Philemon:1"

    This verse is talkiing about the employee /employer relationship. Which today has not really changed. Are we not supposed to have a deep respect for the person we work for or organization. Should we not fear to do wrong to them?  Likewise for masters Christ also tells them to treat the slaves fairly in the verse that follows: "And, masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him." So I think I can claim that I have won the slavery debate. If you don't I agree, then I really hope that the Holy Spirit allows you to see the truth really for what it is. To help further, remember the story of the Centurian who came to Christ for healing his slave that he loved dearly. Do you honest think, that if my employer loves me that much to go to God for help, would I really be sufferring as a slave as you might think? The new testament further commands masters to "Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven."  Even then forgiveness was given to a slave who asked for Jesus demanded that we forgive and love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Some of you need to remember that slaves were people with no hope and needed a family to be in. Look at the story of Jacob who was sold into slavery to Egypt. Was he not treated fairly? Yes he was caught in web of lies by the wife of the master but God did take care of it right? And even so, the pharoah made Jacob is second in command. Not bad for a slave!!!

6. Shroud of Turin evidence. I would rather you all look for the evidence rather than I provide it. I trust everyone here knows google and knows youtube. search yourselves.

7. Salvation a free gift or cost:   Yes I agree, the salvation requires you to give faith. However that is the one thing that God has been looking for since the time of Adam. All he ever wanted adam to do was to trust him and no one else.  So the only good worth we need to do once in our lives is to ask Jesus to forgive us of all of our sins against the one and true Holy God. It is still considered a free gift because it does not require a monetary exchange as in some catholic churches.

8. God Following Mans laws: When I said this I should have said God allows for mans laws to exist in society. Simply if man wants to worship Idols of stone "Hindu's In India" then God does not interfere with them. In some rare cases where sin is just way to high, God does and can destroy that city or town. "sodom and G" .  So in short God does tolerate upto a certain extent Man's Laws.

9. Abrahman and the covenant -- A covenant is a promise from God that says do this and I will give you this. Circumcision is not all that bad when you think of the rewards God is providing. Most Jews still enjoy sex and still have children.  Besides a covenant was necessary, that is a contract between God and the Jewish nation. God at that time did not care for any other nation as they were into Idol worship. But to keep things fair, a contract was made. In other words God did not just simply Bless Abraham for nothing. That would show unfairness. Second God wanted to mark his people. To all you atheists out there, why would a group of people go through a little bit of torture "circumcision" to keep the covenant if God truly did not keep it. There is a God plain and simple. Those Jews who have had God in their lives certainly will not give up their faith.

10. Christianity is a faith and not a religion. God only expects you to come to him once for salvation. If you never came after that, still God remebers that you once asked for the forgiveness of sins and he will forgive you. Other religions have a prescription plan on top of the faith. That is not Christianity. You do because you want to, not out of condemnation.


 Thanks all. God Bless.

[Ivellios]

4. TruthSeeker , Even if everyone obeyed all the laws of God, (which by the way no one could do!!), society would still not be perfect, as our blood as sin in it for which this planet constantly wages war against. So we would still be subject to earthquakes famines and droughts.

The Jews always get a bad rap because they couldn't/wouldn't obey God's Laws. this is called "Rebellion against God." Christians refuse to because they say it's no longer Required. I said :
 

So Christians should obey, with the knowledge that if they make an "oops," they don't need to have a stroke worrying about going to hell, if they REPENT and try to do the straight and narow.

But they don't even do that! Why? The same reason the Jews couldn't/wouldn't obey God's law themselves. In Rebellion against God. "If you Love me, obey my commandments."

Christians are No different than the Jews that they get such a bad rap for. They too Refuse to obey God's Law. Your point is a nul when Christians don't even Try.

"Oh well, my room is just going to get dirty, there's no point cleaning it." "The dishes are just going to get dirty again, there's no point in even washing them" "I'll have to take a shower again tomorrow anyways, so I may as well not take a shower."

As I said, Jesus is there when you fall short, not so you can do whatever, whenever, however you want and still go to heaven. You're supposed to Repent[1], believe, and TRY.

1.	to turn away from your old ways.

[Astreja]

2. Life after death is a total reality.

Unsupported assertion.  I want to see three (3) peer-reviewed medical studies.

As I understand, God and Jesus are outside of this universe by more than one layer at least.

If they truly are "outside of this universe," there is no way for them to communicate with or affect *this* universe.  Any intervention on their part would cause a detectable energy imbalance, and if a link can be established between "inside" and "outside" then there is no longer a separation of the two realms.

When we die however, Jesus is not concerned whether we kept the law, but rather if we trust in his blood to have paid for it all.

What a manipulative and narcissistic creep! No one, and I do mean no one, pays My debts on My behalf without My explicit consent.

I do not consent to participation in a blood sacrifice, as I consider it immoral.

Are we not supposed to have a deep respect for the person we work for or organization.

Only if they are respect-worthy.  It is not automatic.

So I think I can claim that I have won the slavery debate. If you don't I agree, then I really hope that the Holy Spirit allows you to see the truth really for what it is.

I really hope *you* realize that the Holy Spirit is just a fictional sock puppet used by your fictional god, for the times when your fictional god is bored with using "Satan" as its fictional sock puppet.  The Holy Spirit, Satan, and your god are all cut from the same cloth -- They are all puppet-masters that push and pull human beings around from situation to situation and crisis to crisis, then condemn them to horrific torture for doing the very things that these supernatural ninnies made them do.

6. Shroud of Turin evidence. I would rather you all look for the evidence rather than I provide it. I trust everyone here knows google and knows youtube. search yourselves.

I've done the search, and I'm not impressed.  I think it's more plausible that the shroud was the burial cloth of a fallen knight, not of Jesus.

So the only good worth we need to do once in our lives is to ask Jesus to forgive us of all of our sins against the one and true Holy God.

Not going to happen.  I do not believe in Jesus; I do not believe in sin; and I do not believe in your god.

And it isn't a "free gift," either.  If the cost for not accepting the gift is eternal torture, it is coercion.

To all you atheists out there, why would a group of people go through a little bit of torture "circumcision" to keep the covenant if God truly did not keep it.

Because if they did not allow themselves to be circumcised, the village elders would kick them out and/or kill them.  It's primitive tribalism, not evidence for a god.

10. Christianity is a faith and not a religion.

False.  The very act of you coming here to preach at us makes it a religion, and you now cannot undo that action.  It shall remain a religion henceforth.

[Aaron123]

1. Anfauglir I have already layed out what you need to do. You come to Christ as you are. Pray the prayer outlined. Read your bible out of obedience. Do what the holy spirit tells you to do. Sometimes this could mean leaving your job or country or whatever. God has a plan for you and me. Sometimes the plan is simple, live out your life, glorify God in all situations in good and in bad. For we will suffer as christians and we will reap our reward in heaven.

2. Life after death is a total reality. Too many near death experiences have been documented with some giving incredible evidences for christ while others not so much. The bible of course warns against the evidences tha Satan could present. As I understand, God and Jesus are outside of this universe by more than one layer at least.

You're getting way ahead of yourself.  You need to prove two things before you can even talk about any of that stuff.

1) That there exists a god-being of some sort.

2) That this god-being is exactly what is described in the bible.


If you can't do both of those, then the rest of your post is either irrelevant or a bunch of nonsense.

[screwtape]

2. Life after death is a total reality. Too many near death experiences have been documented...

They have been studied and they have nothing to do with an afterlife.  It is just a normal functioning of the brain and it can be recreated in a lab, just like all other religious experiences.  In otherwords, people do experience something.  But their explanation of what it is they experience, is wrong.

As I understand, God and Jesus are outside of this universe by more than one layer at least. This to some extent is a mistery.

To some extent?  It is a complete mystery because it is a meaningless statement. To date, no xian has been able to explain to me just what "outside the universe" or "outside space and time" even means.

I myself without exaggeration have just skimmed the first layer for only a fraction of a second.
... As I went deeper, my visions of entering another dimension got a little to scary so I ended it again.

That was just your imagination. 

Of course this could be all seld induced halucinations. However this is not case at all with some near death experience.

yes and yes.

3. When Jesus fulfilled the law,...

what does it mean to "fulfill" a law?  I know how to fulfill a promise, fulfill my end of a bargain or fulfill a prophecy.  I have no idea how to fulfill the law. 

7. Salvation a free gift or cost:   Yes I agree, the salvation requires you to give faith.

Why?  Why faith?  Why not something else?  Why is faith the thing that your god wants?  And how am I supposed to give faith when I do not have enough evidence to believe in him?

10. Christianity is a faith and not a religion.

No.  It's a religion.  A religion is defined as the beliefs and practices regarding a deity and its relationship to a society.  This may include belief in an afterlife.  Unless you are reinventing the English language, it is a religion.

God only expects you to come to him once for salvation. If you never came after that, still God remebers that you once asked for the forgiveness of sins and he will forgive you.

That does not sound like anything I have ever heard from any other xian.  I used to be catholic and I frequently went to confession.  Does that mean that even though I now do not believe in any gods and think all religions are silly (at best), that if there is a god, I am still "saved"?

[Graybeard]

I will just take you up on two points:

2. Life after death is a total reality. […] Of course this could be all self-induced hallucinations

Your two statements simply do not go together. This is typical of someone who convinces themselves by faulty logic.

5. Slavery in the NT supported by Jesus claimed:  Some individuals think slavery was bad and that it was considered the lowest possible way of being employed or supported. Many people quote Jesus with the verse " Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) See also Philemon:1"

    This verse is talking about the employee /employer relationship. Which today has not really changed.

No. This is another of your deceptions. Please understand that where I am from, employment and slavery have nothing in common. You cannot equate slavery and employment. Slavery is illegal, employment is encouraged.

A slave is property in the same way a dog or cow is. You own a slave. The principle being contested is that one person should own another.

Your trouble is that you do not think clearly. Because you do not think clearly, your concusions are wrong.

[velkyn]

Looks like we need a little more understanding and better communication on my part. Sorry for the delayed response as it was busy at work.

1. Anfauglir I have already layed out what you need to do. You come to Christ as you are. Pray the prayer outlined. Read your bible out of obedience. Do what the holy spirit tells you to do. Sometimes this could mean leaving your job or country or whatever. God has a plan for you and me. Sometimes the plan is simple, live out your life, glorify God in all situations in good and in bad. For we will suffer as christians and we will reap our reward in heaven.

and suprise suprise, this fails exactly as every other "forumula" that has been prated about by every other Christian.  So, Tin, why do you keep repeating a lie? Why does it fail again and again?

and I love the lies you want to tell yourself about how slavery is just "employer/employee".  I really am insulted that you think anyone is this stupid to believe that nonsense that you've created for yourself to excuse your god. Sorry, dear, but your bible says to obey no matter what, even if your master harms you.  You've just used a common excsue for why slavery was good in the antebellum US.  We know from your bible that slaves were not people with no hope.  You are a pitiful liar.  Slaves were war prizes.  Slaves had to make choices between remaining slaves or abandoning their families.  If slavery is so great, why not become my slave?  I promise only to beat you a little and to pay a handful of silver if you die after a few days if my beating was too enthusiastic. 

6. Shroud of Turin evidence. I would rather you all look for the evidence rather than I provide it. I trust everyone here knows google and knows youtube. search yourselves.

Pure crap and a lovely example of how hypocritical Christians are when it comes to the scientific method.  You'll all glom onto it if you think it shows your myths right but you'll claim it's all wrong if it shows those same myths to be wrong. 

10. Christianity is a faith and not a religion. God only expects you to come to him once for salvation. If you never came after that, still God remebers that you once asked for the forgiveness of sins and he will forgive you. Other religions have a prescription plan on top of the faith. That is not Christianity. You do because you want to, not out of condemnation.

Sorry, again, Christianity is exactly a religion. A pity that liars like you need to try to change the definition because liars like you have shat all over the word “religion” and made it less than complimentary.  IF God only expects me to come to him once, I’ve done that and what did I get.  Not one peep.  And hilarious that you like all Christians insist that your magic formula is the only “right” one.  Any evidence of this, Tin?  Of course not, you just lie and lies some more.  Always interesting to see a Christian lie, considering how many times your holy book says your god hates lies and liars. and that last bit “God bless”.  What does that mean to you?  That God will magically change our minds?  That God will fulfill our wishes?  Or is it just some meaningless nonsense so you feel superior, in that you have deluded yourself that you can tell your god what to do?  That’s always a good one. 

[Anfauglir]

Pray the prayer of forgiveness and ask Jesus to come into your heart and wash you whiter than snow. Nothing compares to that feeling of submission to the eternal father who always loved us.

Fair enough then.  You explain to me exactly what I need to do; and exactly what I will experience when I have done it. 

Above question and answer QFT first off.....

Anfauglir I have already layed out what you need to do. You come to Christ as you are. Pray the prayer outlined. Read your bible out of obedience. Do what the holy spirit tells you to do. Sometimes this could mean leaving your job or country or whatever.

Tin, I will assume that you are not being deliberately vague.  Go back and re-read what I asked....with particular reference to the part in bold.  You've told me what I need to do (though see below) - what you have NOT done is explained what will happen.  How will I know, for example, that "the holy spirit" is telling me to do something?  Will I hear words in my head, for example?  How will I tell the holy spirit from Satan, is another important question?  Before I start to do something that could be the work of The Evil One ^TM, I need you to explain clearly what will happen so I can tell the difference.

Now, as to the instructions......

"Pray the prayer of forgiveness" which is what, exactly?  Pray it once?  Does it matter how I do it?  How I feel when I do it?  This is all important stuff.  I need you to be clear - I don't want to waste a lot of time doing something that doesn't work, only for you to say "ah, well, you should ALSO have been doing this....." or "you weren't doing that...."

"Read your bible out of obedience".  What exactly does that mean?  Again, same problems as above - the Bible is a long book, I don't want to spend the next three months reading it and find I was reading it with the wrong attitude.  Be precise, please.

"Do what the holy spirit tells you" - following on from "how will I tell it is REALLY the spirit", it is important you explain how "what he tells me" will be heard.  If its specific words I will hear, then fine, no problem.  But if you mean I will get a feeling to do something....how will I tell that feeling from my own subconsious?  What if I get the feeling to quit my job, when the message was really to take on additional voluntary work?  It would be useful if you could lay out exactly what medium the message will come in.

I appreciate I am asking a lot of question, and asking you to be very specific.  That's the kind of guy I am - before I would (say) buy a car or (more relevantly) a life insurance policy, I want to know all the small print so I don't get caught out.  What YOU are offering me is considerably more important, the ultimate life insurance, you might say.

All the more important I get it exactly right, wouldn't you say?  So clarify, brother.

[Turbo SS]

5. Slavery in the NT supported by Jesus claimed:  Some individuals think slavery was bad and that it was considered the lowest possible way of being employed or supported. Many people quote Jesus with the verse " Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT) See also Philemon:1"

 

Woah woah woah.  What about in Exodus where God says its ok to beat your slaves as long as they can get up after a day or two?  Does this mean my employer can beat me?!?!?