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Offline Babdah

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2011, 02:39:53 PM »
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You're repeating the same type of rhetorical appeal, based on your gross ignorance of other subjects.  You're not acknowledging rebuttals, nor offering to explain yourself as to what conclusions you're trying to draw.  If you are as young as you say, then frankly you have no business here, your ignorance and denial will inevitably place you on the bad side of everyone on the forum.  It doesn't do any good to try to show you differently, because you don't want to learn anything beyond your initial dogma and refuse to acknowledge mistakes.

I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.
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Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2011, 03:00:21 PM »
I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.

You don't have to, you are certainly capable of offing yourself- but we live because we find goals for ourselves. Activities we enjoy, people we like, and look to fill our curiosity about the world and our future.

There are plenty of reasons to want to keep living; but you really have to find yours out yourself.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline Omen

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2011, 03:05:03 PM »
, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else.

So you're emotionally dependent on believing something that is false, and you want to believe in it because you're emotionally dependent on it?

I don't care.
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2011, 03:20:07 PM »
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I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.

there are two choose in life one were you live for a GoD that may or may not be real, then there is the other were you except the fact that we are here because of chance, ether way you look at it you are here if you choose to live a life with a repressing GoD then so be it learn everything you can about GoD, then when you get older you will be back and tell us that we were right when the prayers dont get answered or when GoD fails to advise that playing with fire burns. eather way you will have to learn on your own and no one can make the choose for you. Platypuses are here for to ask what kinda cruel GoD would mix a duck and a beaver, or maybe aliens j/k   
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Offline hypagoga

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2011, 03:21:31 PM »
I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.

Why would you want to knowingly grasp onto a lie? Why does that give your life solace instead of living for no other "reason" than the fact you were born? What is so scary about acknowledging reality, where the alternative is ignoring reality for the sake of fantasy? There are words for that in psychiatry.

All the things we "want" to live for are the same. All the same things you enjoy now, except they aren't shrouded in fantasy. There is no supernatural entity looking down approvingly upon your every move, or disapprovingly when you make mistakes. You are free to make good decisions and bad decisions, and you don't need to fear some eternal judge. 

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #34 on: September 06, 2011, 03:26:05 PM »
I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to. I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.

What you want has no bearing on what is. "want" has no place in this discussion. In fact, it's poison. The first person to tell you what you want to hear, and sell it well enough, regardless of evidence, will own you.

Forget about such questions, finish your education, do your homework, take up a hobby, clubs or sports, then, when you are older, you can approach the question with knowledge, maturity and intellectual honesty. Be thankful no one has brainwashed you, and taken that great opportunity away from you.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #35 on: September 06, 2011, 03:33:04 PM »
I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.

Yes, it is very scary to consider that there is nothing after death. However, the notion that God is comforting does not make his existence a fact. Here is a link on how religion came about to begin with. I think I have posted this one before (my bolding):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_origin_of_religions

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The evolution of religion can also be explained in terms of the nature of human comprehension and the belief in the supernatural. Human contact with the environment as of all creatures is through the sensory mechanism. The greater the number of senses, the greater is the comprehension. In the case of humans, the message reaches the brain and there it is given meaning in the light of individual experience. The meaning consists of the explanation that the brain provides for the message. When natural causes are not available for comprehending an experience, the brain has to assume imaginary causes and often these are of a supernatural kind. Shared by a group through language, the generally acceptable explanation gains credibility and becomes part of the social consensus and the group's religion. In time, advance of scientific knowledge based on experimental validation gradually, often after initial social resistance, replaces the unsubstantiated or supernatural explanation as a part of cultural evolution. Beliefs, like the belief in God, that cannot be falsified by experiment continue to form religious belief the strength of which is drawn essentially from emotion.

We, as humans, give things meaning. When we don't understand something, our brains have the power to imagine reasons and explanations for it. For example, when our ancestors didn't understand their origins, they made up a creator (God). They were also afraid of death, so they made up the concept of an afterlife, and these beliefs are fueled by not only the fear we are trying to avoid so desperately, but also fueled by the comfort that is drawn from the imaginary solution to the problem of death.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2011, 04:07:58 PM »
I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.
And elsewhere you said, "A conclusion is what you reach when you stop thinking."

Religion relies on your stopping thinking early. The sooner you stop thinking, the more religious you are.

The thing about your ideas is that it seems you have chosen a really crappy religion. If you had chosen Hinduism, you can get to heaven by simply being reasonably good.

If you choose The Flying Spaghetti Monster, you are promised a land of strippers and beer volcanoes.

However, look at it another way. What's Hell like? I'll tell you: to the Inuit Eskimos, it is freezing cold; to the Scandinavians, it was a land of cold mists and ice, to those who live in the desert (Jews and Arabs) it is roasting hot - ever wondered why they simply didn't swap religions?

Or is it that each man creates his own image afterlife based upon what he liked and did not like in this world?

What is your personal vision of what heaven and hell are like?
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Offline albeto

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2011, 07:17:12 PM »
I understand but the fact that the bible seems more like a fairly tail, i want to hold on to it because i dont want to acknowledge the fact that we're are here just because and when we die there is nothing else. I wanted to look for a reason that could dispel this and find a reason why people want to live other then we have to.

Babdah, it's a lie you've been told that the only thing in life with value is eternal.  There's value all around you and if pressed, I'm sure you could find those things that are of most value to you before too long.  Things don't have to have value to a pretend extraterrestrial creature to be worthy to you.   Enjoy experiences that are creative, productive, pleasurable.  You'll find you enjoy those experiences more when the people you are with also enjoy them, that is, when you broaden your sphere of pleasure to include not just you but those around you, those to come after you.  In this way you will find value in being virtuous, live life in the moment, experience the joy of sharing experiences with others who care about you, all without any coercive dogmas clouding your reason. 

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2011, 04:34:49 PM »
Babdah - a platypus doesn't exist because it contributes to the world, it exists because it can survive in the world, just like any other organism.

Too often I see the word, "faith," used where it doesn't apply.  I don't have faith that the earth will continue spinning to make the sun appear to rise and set, I have trust that the earth will continue spinning to make the sun appear to rise and set, because any time I've ever checked, that's what's actually happening. 

Trying to conflate a religious connotation to the behavior of reality that we can observe is simply a dishonest confusion tactic.  Whether intentional or not, it waters down any discussion.

Others have explained it before, but I must state again that the term, "theory," is widely abused as well.  A theory is an idea that is backed up by every reliable observation that we come across.  "Hypothesis" is the term that should be used in relation to ideas like, "membrane hypothesis," "multiple universe hypothesis," "flat earth hypothesis," and "creation hypothesis," since we have no observations to back up these proposed ideas.  While these proposals may provide some sort of an explanation for reality, if there is no actual evidence to back them up, they are in no way dependable theories.
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2011, 09:09:42 PM »
So I took the time to go out on my own and look for evidence that god doesn’t exist and I found that there are many reason for god to not exist then there is for him to. On my little quest I found out that when you search for “why can’t I hear gods voice” there are enough answers for every hour of the day for I would presume a few years. I also had to stop by Landover Baptist forums to pick a few of their brains which would be the main factor that change my opinion on the matter completely. When I read this, Colossians 2:8 Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy, why would anyone want to avoid learning? I completely understood how bad religion is on this world and mostly country.  Now the life chooses I need to make is whether to be a pastor and hope I can get a paycheck like Olsten or should I dictate my life to something more meaning for the world maybe something on Physics.  I have always like Steven Hawkins and Max Planck’s ideas.

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my point is, is this why you dont allowing thinking?
You ask questions like that and call yourself a Christian? Besides, it's not about what we do or do not allow, but what God does or does not allow. If you don't like it, take it up with Him.
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1 Peter 2:13-17: Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. __________________
there is the problem we are suppose to follow this but in bold it says "Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." i just posted were it said to kill any one that doesn't believe i am confused which should i follow?

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Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
you never answered this question. is this why God doesnt allow us to think?
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there is the problem we are suppose to follow this but in bold it says "Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king." i just posted were it said to kill any one that doesn't believe i am confused which should i follow?
We love and turn the other cheek to those who injure us, but, by God's Word, we must smite utterly those who are enemies of God.
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you never answered this question. is this why God doesnt allow us to think?
Is not our mind puny compared to The Mind of God? Is His Wisdom not superior to ours? Why would we wish to discuss whether He is right or not? Was not Paul completely right?
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Originally Posted by Ezekiel Bathfire View Post
We love and turn the other cheek to those who injure us, but, by God's Word, we must smite utterly those who are enemies of God.
OK, that still doesn't make sense because if a man harms anther man that is not God like and should be killed. If am wrong please correct me.

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Is not our mind puny compared to The Mind of God? Is His Wisdom not superior to ours? Why would we wish to discuss whether He is right or not? Was not Paul completely right?
If this is the case, then how in the world do ya have lawyers, scientist and other scholars that work for the church?
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Originally Posted by Brother Enoch
Nonsense. I have no urge to do any of those things. I'm not an atheist.
Interesting because I've gone through a few debates in real life where the other person(usually a christian/muslim) literally told me that "I don't see how you can not believe in God, if I didn't believe in God there would be no point in living and I'd just murder people all I piffleing wanted to". Yet I've never met an atheist or agnostic or a simple deist say that.
You are probably right. Atheists don't go around saying it. They just do it (murder people all they want).
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OK, that still doesn't make sense because if a man harms anther man that is not God like and should be killed. If am wrong please correct me.
Allow me to correct you.

Lu:6:28: Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Lu:6:29: And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

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If this is the case, then how in the world do ya have lawyers, scientist and other scholars that work for the church?
I know you will not be offended if I say that you are perhaps the most stupid person I have ever met, because I do not mean that offensively.

1. The "lawyers, scientist and other scholars" are all True Christians™.
2. When you deal with Satan, you must know how Satan works
3. If we were the Police, would you be surprised that we studied criminals?
4. If we were the CIA, would you not expect us to read atheist and Communist propaganda - just to see what they thought and how best to defeat them?

Do you think we have just walked off the banana boat?
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From KJV 1611: The sacred book of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.

        1Th:2:4: But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts
        Jas:1:21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    Author of such illuminating essays as,
    Map of the Known World; Periodic Table of Elements; The History of Linguistics; The Errors of Wicca; Dolphins and Evolution; The History of Landover (The Apology); Landover and the Civil War; 2000 Racial Slurs.

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Quote:
If this is the case, then how in the world do ya have lawyers, scientist and other scholars that work for the church?
I know you will not be offended if I say that you are perhaps the most stupid person I have ever met, because I do not mean that offensively.

1. The "lawyers, scientist and other scholars" are all True Christians™.
2. When you deal with Satan, you must know how Satan works
3. If we were the Police, would you be surprised that we studied criminals?
4. If we were the CIA, would you not expect us to read atheist and Communist propaganda - just to see what they thought and how best to defeat them?

Do you think we have just walked off the banana boat?
OK, so your allowed to study and work in the field that you work so hard for but you dont believe in the field of study? Ok, So i study religion and how it evolved over time and all the different denomination that are out there but i am not allowed to be in them i would have to belive that this church , Landover, is the best one. Just to know how satan works?
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Have you ever looked at a picture or painting of a black Jesus and thought to yourself, “This just doesn’t feel right?” You ask yourself, “Is the painter joking? Is he making fun of Jesus?” The answer is yes, the artist is being sarcastic and that artist is surely burning in hell’s fire as I type this.

Jesus was white. Yes, He was born in the Middle East, but His father was not Middle Eastern, He was God. God is NOT Middle Eastern. When was the last time you saw a painting of God with a Turban wrapped around His head? Never? Exactly.

God is white. God has always been white. Every depiction, every description and every painting I have seen of God has been white. God impregnated Mary, NOT Joseph. Therefor, Jesus is white.

That is what drew people to Him in the first place. A white skinned man in the Middle East 2000 years ago was surely a miracle and Jesus was and is a miracle worker.

Now look at Heaven. Heaven is mostly made of feathery white clouds with rays of light shooting through them, which according to most Christians I know, would make the inhabitants white.

Also, white is amazingly proficient at reflecting light, which is very important when living in Heaven because it’s much closer to the sun than living on the Earth. This white skin prevents you from getting cancer in Heaven and I’m sure stops many other diseases in their tracks.

So, next time you start babbling on about how, “Jesus was Middle Eastern and couldn’t have been white”, save yourself the embarrassment and look at the Facts!

God Bless!
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Default Re: Evolution
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Originally Posted by babdah View Post
Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
What's your point?
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  #102 
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Default Re: Evolution
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Originally Posted by Jack O'fagan View Post
No idea. Just another piece of trash who got a random word generator for his birthday.
Lol christians don't understand memes.
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Default Re: Evolution
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Originally Posted by Degenerate Godmocker View Post
Lol christians don't understand memes.
Refresh my memory as to where in the King James Bible they're mentioned.
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  #104 
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Default Re: Evolution
Quote:
Originally Posted by Degenerate Godmocker View Post
Lol christians don't understand memes.
"Meme" is an atheistic concept that does not presume the existence of God in its definition. Anything that does not require God to exist is a lie made up by atheists, because God created everything.
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Default Re: Evolution
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Originally Posted by babdah View Post
i am trying to say that christian are suppose to kill all none believers, I have i served in the Army.

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8
So what's your point? We already know this. and why should you serving in the army make any difference to any of this?
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Default Re: Evolution
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What's your point?
my point is, is this why you dont allowing thinking?

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It's commendable that the mooselimbs actually follow their religion to the end. That makes it that much more of a pity that their religion is a lie based on a parody of the Bible. Christians are bound to follow secular law, but once Biblical law is restored, we True Christians™ will follow the Bible to the letter. whether or not you consider God's commands to be politically correct. Shout glory!
this is the reason that the world will end. and yes i did miss this.


some of the ignorance i seen that made me understand the groups point.
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Offline hypagoga

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2011, 09:18:00 PM »
^^^you do know Landover Baptist Church is a parody, right?

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2011, 09:25:44 PM »
No, I didn't.
“We live in an age disturbed, confused, bewildered, afraid of its own forces, in search not merely of its road but even of its direction

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2011, 11:41:55 PM »
No, I didn't.

If you can't discern a parody, why would someone be expected to trust your interpretation of a myth?

I smells a revival poe.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2011, 05:21:55 AM »
In simpleton terms everyone has a reason to live and that reason is their God.   If not then explain how it is not .

I've bolded the crucial word there.

In one respect, yes you are right.  You COULD refer to someone's primary motivation as their "god" - although, note carefully the small "g" rather than the capitalisation that refers to the Christian god, that differentiates a physical being with its own thoughts and motivations from a mere inert physical subject.

I may say "money is my god" - I doubt I would ever say "money is my God" unless I truly revered it and thought it was worthy of worship.

But the question really is: why use "god" in that sentence at all?  You'll find that generally only those who have a religious belief in a sentient deity will use the word "god" in that context - and then it tends to be in a perjorative way.  Those who do NOT believe find the qualifier is unnecessary, and will simply say "everyone has a reason to live", full stop.

I would tend to agree that pretty much everyone does what they do for a reason - even if that reason is as nebulous as "it makes me happy".  What I find curious is why you insist on shoehorning the word "god" into the mix.  Perhaps because.....

Now the life chooses I need to make is whether to be a pastor and hope I can get a paycheck like Olsten or should I dictate my life to something more meaning for the world maybe something on Physics. 

...you have been raised - indoctrinated? - in faith so much that, despite your doubts, you would still feel more comfortable becoming a pastor and spending your time in comforting delusions than branching out into the real world?

You are only 14 - you've a couple years yet to go before you even have to start thinking about study choices for career choices.  And even then, its rare that any decision is final.  My advice would be not to sweat about what you will one day be, and at the moment take an interest in anything and everything.  Its not a binary pastor/physicist route, you could be a doctor, an archaeologist, a travel writer, a dustman, a car salesman, a lawyer, a historian, a soldier.....

I guess the best advice I can give to you is to find something you enjoy, are enthusiastic about, and consider how you can make a career in it.  Far better to do something you enjoy, than (for example) to study for a career in the church teaching about something you don't really believe is true.  THAT would be an easy way to an unhappy and stressful life.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2011, 05:59:21 PM »
I smells a revival poe.

Apologies for my newbie ignorance, but i've spotted a few mentions of poe in the forums - anyone want to enlighten me?

PoM

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2011, 06:00:40 PM »
I smells a revival poe.

Apologies for my newbie ignorance, but i've spotted a few mentions of poe in the forums - anyone want to enlighten me?

PoM

An argument so bad that it can't be separated from portrayal of the real thing or parody of the real thing.  This category encompasses a wide range of mostly creationist arguments.
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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2011, 06:22:26 PM »
I have wrestled with the idea that there is very little of ultimate importance if religion is not true and have since came to the conclusion that the only thing man can do that will be ultimately meaningful is SURVIVE.
Our self awareness and intellect have given us the opportunity that other creatures have not been presented with. We may one day be able to travel the stars, find ways to extend our lifespans exponentially, and at least make our race endure for as long as there is a universe to exist in. That concept, that hope, that possibility is what I now find inspiring!

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2011, 06:48:23 PM »
An argument so bad that it can't be separated from portrayal of the real thing or parody of the real thing.  This category encompasses a wide range of mostly creationist arguments.

Thanks. There seems to be a fair bit of that going on with some (delusional) members!

PoM

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2011, 10:14:17 AM »
I have wrestled with the idea that there is very little of ultimate importance

What exactly is 'ultimate importance' regardless if a god exists or not?

Consider that 'ultimate importance' is really a superfluous qualification for really anything and nothing at the same time, reliant on nothing more than our assertion at that point that it is the only meaning, and being as without relevance regardless if a god exists or not.  I ask the question above because you're treating 'ultimate importance' as if it was some inherent objective property of nature, that doesn't reasonably follow even if we are to suppose a god to be real.  Its declared importance is no more or less aesthetic and subjective than importance assigned elsewhere.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2011, 07:04:14 AM »
I have wrestled with the idea that there is very little of ultimate importance if religion is not true and have since came to the conclusion that the only thing man can do that will be ultimately meaningful is SURVIVE.

Your thought is incomplete, TOT.  Of ultimate importance to what?  Importance is relative to a goal or desire (or to a set thereof).  For example, me eating food is important to my goal of surviving healthily and to the desire to satisfy hunger (both could be re-stated as either goals or desires, for that matter).

Me not jumping off of my 12th-floor balcony is of ultimate importance (or close to it) to my goal of survival (or desire to survive).  Myriad other examples could be brought up; I trust you get the idea.

So, to which goals/desires were you referring when you used "of ultimate importance" in the post above?

Our self awareness and intellect have given us the opportunity that other creatures have not been presented with. We may one day be able to travel the stars, find ways to extend our lifespans exponentially, and at least make our race endure for as long as there is a universe to exist in. That concept, that hope, that possibility is what I now find inspiring!

Cool that you've found a new source of hope; the desire for immortality is strong in our culture.  Have you considered why it is that you feel permenance/eternity to be so valuable?  Logically, why is it so?
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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2011, 09:49:37 AM »
I have wrestled with the idea that there is very little of ultimate importance if religion is not true and have since came to the conclusion that the only thing man can do that will be ultimately meaningful is SURVIVE.

Your thought is incomplete, TOT.  Of ultimate importance to what?  Importance is relative to a goal or desire (or to a set thereof).  For example, me eating food is important to my goal of surviving healthily and to the desire to satisfy hunger (both could be re-stated as either goals or desires, for that matter).

Me not jumping off of my 12th-floor balcony is of ultimate importance (or close to it) to my goal of survival (or desire to survive).  Myriad other examples could be brought up; I trust you get the idea.

So, to which goals/desires were you referring when you used "of ultimate importance" in the post above?

Our self awareness and intellect have given us the opportunity that other creatures have not been presented with. We may one day be able to travel the stars, find ways to extend our lifespans exponentially, and at least make our race endure for as long as there is a universe to exist in. That concept, that hope, that possibility is what I now find inspiring!

Cool that you've found a new source of hope; the desire for immortality is strong in our culture.  Have you considered why it is that you feel permenance/eternity to be so valuable?  Logically, why is it so?

Starting with your last question, my answer would be human, or in this case personal vanity. The idea of my existence coming to an end is in my mind, totally unacceptable.
When I speak of ultimate importance, what I am referencing is something, anything for that matter that will endure. If all there is ultimately comes to an end, then what I'm saying is that there is NOTHING that is of ultimate importance and therefore everything is ultimately meaningless. In my estimation, the only thing that can be done to provide meaning to any and everything is for mankind to endure endlessly.

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2011, 10:28:38 AM »
Starting with your last question, my answer would be human, or in this case personal vanity. The idea of my existence coming to an end is in my mind, totally unacceptable.

I know what you mean.  I wonder if that vanity can be overcome?  After all, we're little.  Mere humans.  Should we desire our lives to be eternal?  Should we desire ourselves to have the cosmic impact implied by living forever (in whatever form)?  And if we don't, then what are the ramifications of that?

It's not an easy question, and I'm still wrestling with it myself.

When I speak of ultimate importance, what I am referencing is something, anything for that matter that will endure. If all there is ultimately comes to an end, then what I'm saying is that there is NOTHING that is of ultimate importance and therefore everything is ultimately meaningless. In my estimation, the only thing that can be done to provide meaning to any and everything is for mankind to endure endlessly.

But objectively, nothing ever ends.  This is because "things" are not discrete - they are parts of a larger whole.  The universe is the larger whole.

What we view as "things" - for example, a person, or a car - are subjective, logically-arbitrary distinctions imposed on the universe by our minds.  The laws of nature draw no distinction between what we consider to be a part of an object, and what we do not.  Therefore, if "things" are "ending", then the only real "ending" that's going on is in our heads.  What is objectively happening, is change.

EDIT:  Redundant words.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 11:11:15 AM by Azdgari »
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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2011, 10:54:38 AM »
Speaking from my own experience, one of the biggest beefs I have with faith is that is serves as a mechanism to stunt curiousity. As a believer in the Bible writings I always believed that the world and everything would come to an end, but that man would be given a new life in the resurrection and then have the opportunity to live on forever in an unending habitation. With that thought in mind I dismissed the idea of us searching for a way to survive our planet's eventual demise, I thought it futile to pursue a means to "cure" death and aging, and I felt no urgency about needed to survive cataclysmic events like an asteroid destroying all life on Earth because in my mind, I "knew" that I would be resurrected to age lasting life and therefore such an event ultimately was not that big a deal.

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2011, 11:15:58 AM »
Because life would continue, essentially uninterrupted.  But is that even really desirable?  And should it be?
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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #54 on: September 29, 2011, 11:29:55 AM »
Because life would continue, essentially uninterrupted.  But is that even really desirable?  And should it be?

I guess the answer would be dependent upon the quality of that endlees life. If the endless life was one of health, vigor, and endless growth in knowledge, access to the previously unknown, and ability, then I don't see how it would not be desirable.

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #55 on: September 29, 2011, 11:34:00 AM »
And when so much is known, that new knowledge just ends up being about the same sorts of things you've already encountered?

And when one's limited ability starts to chafe, over the billions of years?

Even aside from those factors, however, there's still my 2nd question, which was meant more as a moral one.  Do we deserve eternal life, according to our own moral standards?  And if not, then shouldn't we avoid seeking it - ethically?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #56 on: September 29, 2011, 11:47:17 AM »
And when so much is known, that new knowledge just ends up being about the same sorts of things you've already encountered?

And when one's limited ability starts to chafe, over the billions of years?

Even aside from those factors, however, there's still my 2nd question, which was meant more as a moral one.  Do we deserve eternal life, according to our own moral standards?  And if not, then shouldn't we avoid seeking it - ethically?

I don't know, that's a toughy and an aspect I hadn't considered really at all? As I immediately think about it, truth be told, I could care less whether I "deserve" it, as that changes nothing as it relates to my desire for it.
I'd say that if we could find a way to make it possible then we would "deserve" it because we will have empowered ourselves with the ability to acheive it. But if we were reliant upon some deity to grant us with that life, then I would say the answer would be a definitive NO.


It souds like you are under the impression that age lasting life would eventually get, for lack of a beter word, boring. Really? I doubt that as endless life would potentially yeild endless possibilities. Some of which could include traveling to places billions of light years away and witnessing and experiencing things we may previously have not even thought of.

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Re: Faith and Science
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2011, 02:39:28 AM »
I doubt that as endless life would potentially yeild endless possibilities. Some of which could include traveling to places billions of light years away and witnessing and experiencing things we may previously have not even thought of.

Aye - now THAT kind of eternal life I could get behind - "seeing how it all turns out", as I've put it before.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?